PDA

View Full Version : Who Carries A Gun & An Alternate Weapon With Which You Have Been Trained?


Glenn Bartley
March 26, 2011, 11:14 PM
When I carry a firearm, I almost always carry at least one other weapon with which I am not only familiar but for the use of which I have received training. In my case, that can be either a backup pistol, pepper spray or an expandable baton. I like to have various options open to me as to the type of force I may need to use if a gun (use of deadly force) would not be appropriate.

So who among you does likewise? In answering please try to limit the alternate weapon to anything that actually is manufactured to be a weapon and one you have been trained to use. Training can be any sort from professional instruction to a friend teaching you to self trained.

All the best,
Glenn B

Sefner
March 26, 2011, 11:33 PM
I carry a "tactical" flashlight with me. By tactical I mean it has a 200+ lumen light that is very focused. Can't really say I've been "trained" other than "shine light at BG, run" kinda thing. I carry it to class cuz I can't have my gun on campus. Not the best thing but it has to do. Pepper spray is banned on campus. As are knives over 3". I have a leatherman that is 2.5" but I don't want to risk my college career and financial standing over a leatherman. Plus a leatherman is not a self-defense tool.

WeedWacker
March 27, 2011, 10:55 AM
I always have a knife on me. Sometimes I carry a small baton for pressure points and locks, but I'd rather have a more intimidating force as I can do just as well with my hands bare as when armed with the baton.

MrDontPlay
March 27, 2011, 11:10 AM
I'm carry a knife but really just as a tool. I've thought of getting a tactical pen too

Deaf Smith
March 27, 2011, 12:12 PM
Hands and feet son. I'm well trained with them. Many many years well trained.

My options are simple. Gun or H2H.

Deaf

smince
March 27, 2011, 01:51 PM
Gun

2 Knives

Hands/Feet/Knees/Elbows (etc)

I've been trained to use them

AK103K
March 27, 2011, 03:23 PM
Guns

Knives

Body parts

and a "teacup".

Im not afraid to use the truck or car either. :D

Whirlwind06
March 27, 2011, 03:31 PM
Knife - have basic ongoing training.

Pepper spray - self thought.

H2H - basic training on going training.

SauerJackson
March 27, 2011, 05:18 PM
I carry a spring loaded knife as well as a .45acp, but both would be considered "lethal force". My ccw instructor very specifically warned me about keeping non-lethal weapons on my persons while carrying! Maybe it is just because Minnesota is only a few years into being a "shall issue" state, and has a stupid clause that says I'm required to try running away first when being confronted by a BG..... But because of these kind of gray areas, I would have to pretty much already be shot in order to convince a jury that my tazer/baton whatever the case wouldn't have stopped the BG and I was justified in pulling a gun.

Whirlwind06
March 28, 2011, 06:56 AM
If you have ASP baton or knife out, then obviously you are doing something wrong. You should be hiding out somewhere with your cell phone calling in the highly paid law enforcement officers to do their job.

To bad the bad guys don't always let you retreat and call the police.
I can't always carry a firearm. I can almost always have a knife, pepper spray. Always have my hands and my head.

There is a difference between looking for trouble and being prepared to defend yourself when trouble finds you.

Scout
March 28, 2011, 07:11 AM
When I was young, I was trained in unarmed combat and knife fighting. But I have to be honest with myself, that as I approach 50 years old, I am no longer able to perform like the hard 20 year old of those days. It's gun only for me.

LouCap
March 28, 2011, 07:26 AM
This thread promotes an unsafe message. In a self defense situation on the street, your concern should be getting away, being a good witness, calling the police or using deadly force as a last resort. Carrying around knives, pepper spray and batons makes it seem like you want to enforce the law. There are plenty of highly paid law enforcement officers who are specifically trained to do that job. Even if you are an off-duty officer, then most departments advocate that you be a good witness and let the on-duty officers handle the situation.

If you have ASP baton or knife out, then obviously you are doing something wrong. You should be hiding out somewhere with your cell phone calling in the highly paid law enforcement officers to do their job.

+1

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

Glenn Bartley
March 28, 2011, 07:26 AM
TimeToHunt,

This thread, with all due respect, is not promoting anything except maybe you promoting a misinterpretation or misunderstanding of it. Where did anyone suggest that anything illegal or unethical be done? A question was asked that is all. Statements were made as to what weapons people carry, that is all. No one said - hey - go out to do something illegal, unethical or immoral. There is absolutely nothing wrong with carrying other defensive weapons where allowed by law.

In a self defense situation on the street, your concern should be getting away... No getting away should not always be your concern, and certainly never the main one. The main concern you should have in any situation wherein you are threatened with imminent serious bodly injury or death is that you defend yourself sufficiently to survive. So when a bad guy grabs you from behind and throws you to the ground and starts stabbing you, tell me - are you going to run away? I could name thousands of other types of situations that require immediate 'fight not flight' action on the part of the victim. People would never carry weapons at all if in fact they were always required to get away. The fact is that is not a requirement if you reasonably believe you cannot escape without being harmed. If you ca escape unharmed, great but if not - then what? So what would you do then. Would you choose to always shoot someone instead of using lesser force? There are many situations where you could be attacked and need to use force to help you survive or even to be able to get away yet where deadly force would not be justified.

In fact, if you only carry a gun - then you may be doing something wrong or promoting bad behavior if only because you are not giving yourself the option of lesser force than deadly force. If you do not understand that then I suggest you learn the continum of force. You may be required to try to escape if possible but when escape is not possible and harm to you is imminent then you would be less than intelligent not to defend yourself with a legal weapon if you had one. If the amount of force being used on you does not justify deadly force yet does justify use of soft techniques or hard force in return, then tell me - would legal pepper spray or another legal weapon such as a legal expandable baton not be a possible, ethical and intelligent alternative to use of deadly force.

Bear in mind, no police department or law enforcement agency, in this country of which I am aware, tells their officers to only be a good witness when they are threatened with imminent deadly force or risk of serious bodily injury while they are off duty. Many state laws do not require their police officers, even those off duty, to retreat when threatened in such a manner - in fact, many do not even require non-law enforcement civilians to retreat.

Also bear in mind, we are talking about carrying weapons for self defense not about being John Wayne, or the flaming avenger or Paul Kersey. We were talking about whether or not people carry alternate weapons.

All the best,
GB

docnyt
March 28, 2011, 07:40 AM
Timetohunt is either being facetious or he's from Britain.

irish52084
March 28, 2011, 12:42 PM
Besides a pistol, I usually carry a knife. Beyond that, I have and continue to train to defend myself in H2H. I think self defense training and learning truly effective means of using your body as a weapon are important for everyone that is physically able to do so. There is no simulating fisticuffs and how to move people who are resisting.

plotdog99
March 28, 2011, 02:04 PM
Gun, knife, only level 1 in knife and counter knife combatives. Fixing to start hapkido.

LordTio3
March 28, 2011, 02:28 PM
Glock 19 9mm and tactical 3.5" folder. Instructor level in Hapkido with weapons proficiency in short bladed knife, escrima, and ligature. I'd carry an asp if I could do so comfortably, and consider myself better armed with it than the knife.

~LT

SauerJackson
March 28, 2011, 02:32 PM
Well said Irish.....

ripnbst
March 28, 2011, 02:58 PM
Almost always have a 3" folder on me and will carry my firearm when I get CCW in OK since I recently moved here from PA.

markj
March 28, 2011, 03:41 PM
Never felt the need to carry anything less than lethal. H2H used to ne the norm but in todays world they just dont do that.

My cousin a police officer told me that things like a baton could convey something that may not be true so I often have a large d cell flashlite in the vehicle. A baton is used for one thing, a flashlite is for liteing up the place.

Why would you use anything other than a gun? if you beat a guy with a steel object you are assaulting another, if it is that bad then shoot him. Beat him you may be sued or arrested IMHO.

HorseSoldier
March 28, 2011, 05:41 PM
Don't claim to be an expert knife fighter, but have had some real instruction on how to employ one, and always carry a Benchmade folder that is big enough and sturdy enough to function as a weapon.

On the street, also carried the usual assortment of intermediate weapons, but I don't carry pepper spray and a baton when I go out on my own time.

retiredcoasty
March 28, 2011, 05:56 PM
TineToHunt, there was a time that I could ‘get away’. Now, due to horribly disfigured legs, I can no longer run or even walk fast. I own a real estate company and I routinely sell properties that are vacant. Many of these properties will have squatters or druggies stealing copper for a fix. They sometimes get a little ‘uppity’ if you know what I mean. Also, I sell a lot of multi-family homes where drug dealers work and live with their pitbulls and where ‘working girls’ walk the streets. The incidence of gunfire in these areas is fairly high but most – but not all – shots occur at night.

Funny thing about folks strung out on drugs and those that sell those drugs, their goal is normally not to run to get away. So I must be ready for anything. I am not the Rambo type but I must be ready in case the human feces hits the oscillating blades. Thus far I have been able to talk my way out of situations, but sooner or later, my luck will run out. So, for the wellbeing of my clients and myself, I must be prepared. However, I will never start trouble and I will always try to talk my way out of challenging situations.

I carry a S&W 38 or a S&W 40 M&P. I sometimes also carry a knife but view it more as a tool. Lastly when viewing vacant homes, I have a flashlight with a very strong beam (200 lumens or more). The beam can be confusing as it is extremely bright. And lastly, I have a cell phone which can dial 911 quickly… always a great step when given time!

irish52084
March 28, 2011, 10:19 PM
Thank you SauerJackson.

retiredcoasty, you make a great point about the flashlight, it can be a potent tool. Few tings are more annoying and shocking than a bright light to the eyes. I never bought into flashlights until I bought one for my home defense pistol. Now I understand how useful they can be.

retiredcoasty
March 28, 2011, 10:45 PM
TimeToHunt, there is wisdom in your words. But our personal safety comes down to the individual being the first line of defense. The individual is responsible for their own safety. Even if we call 911, the police will not be on-scene for four minutes minimum. A lot can happen in four minutes. That said, I feel the using any weapon is a last-ditch action. The best way to avoid a conflict is to avoid it. So, if we can back out, we will. If we can talk our way out of trouble, we will.

I have four police officers in my office and nearly a quarter of my clients are cops. We have discussed this issue a lot because I have ten female agents. Their safety is a paramount issue. As the business owner, I am obligated to minimize dangerous situations for my agents. And for all of us, dialing 911 is the first thing done. Leaving the area follows closely behind 911. And thus far, those two tactics have worked.

TJ

irish52084
March 28, 2011, 11:06 PM
timetohunt, I have to disagree with you strongly. If I have the option to use a weapon other than a gun to defend myself, it's better than not having one. Why do cops carry batons, mace, taser etc...? They are there for less lethal responses.

What makes the gun less likely to be taken from someone than another weapon like a baton or knife? If they snatched your baton and are trying to beat you with it, use your gun. The secondary weapon allows you a chance to end a situation without lethal force and may save you some legal headaches.

What about a 100LBS woman who is cornered and being assaulted by a 200+LBS rapist who reaches into her pocket and grabs her knife to stab her attacker and escape? Would you say to her that her knife is too likely to get taken from her and she shouldn't have carried it? What hypocrisy it is when we advocate the use of a gun for self defense, but not a knife or baton.

I carry a gun because I don't know what situation I will be confronted with today or tomorrow, or ever. I carry for the unknown and I refuse to play the odds with my life or the lives of my family. Crazy people don't make appointments to attack you, and if I could stop them without killing them, I would prefer that and a weapon other than a gun helps to facilitate that. I didn't spend my time training to protect myself because it was fun being choked, taken down, thrown, punched, kicked or kneed. I did it to be better prepared for all situations.

freenokia
March 29, 2011, 02:14 AM
I ususally only carry one weapon on my person. But in the car I usually have a backup pistol in glove box, extra rounds for both, 2 small cans of pepper spray, Knife/box cutter, about a 2ft piece of galvanized pipe, & a 2 million candle spotlight!

I bought two pepper sprays so I could spray one to see how it works & still have a fresh one to use.

Other than that, no real formal training...But I have been shooting stuff, beating stuff, & cutting stuff for the better part of my life :D

PIGMAN
March 29, 2011, 02:28 AM
A dog a mean gnarly ill tempered dog

teeroux
March 29, 2011, 03:10 AM
If you have ASP baton or knife out, then obviously you are doing something wrong. You should be hiding out somewhere with your cell phone calling in the highly paid law enforcement officers to do their job.



Nothing wrong with defending yourself by any means and I don't know of any law enforcement officers who are highly paid.

Double Naught Spy
March 29, 2011, 06:53 AM
It is good to see the number of folks who aren't "defenseless" simply because they don't have a gun. I don't have formal training in secondary weapons, but I too am far from defenseless without a gun, though I sometimes carry a bug.

but I suggest you Google it and find out for yourself. Most officers earn more then the average citizen, are usually some of the top municipal earners and make well into six digits with full benefits paid and the opportunity to retire at age 50.

Cops may make more than the average population, but not really anymore than folks with jobs of comparable civic duties. Few make 6 figures.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos160.htm

Firemen make slightly less, but still above the "averge" worker.

In response to Glenn Bartley, I do not believe there is a police chief out there that would encourage their officers to go beyond being a good witness. The fact is the officer could easily be mistaken for the bad guy. There have been times when off-duty officers were shot by the on-duty officers. Then usually off-duty officers who use their weapons usually wind up in some type of trouble. Im not saying off-duty officers should not defend themselves when threatened directly with deadly force, I am just saying its probably better if they use their cellphones to call the on-duty officers to handle the situation and retreat to safer ground. For example, chasing a burglary suspect while off-duty or something like that. Its probably best to let the on-duty guys get the job done.

This is wrong. Here, I would suggest you take your own advice and Google the subject. Several departments of which I know require their officers to respond to the best of their abilities and situation if witnessing a felony activity. That may be in being a good witness given the activity or activily working to resolve the situation.

If the concern for being mistaken for a bad guy was that big, there would be no plain clothes police officers.

Required to respond while off duty examples...

http://www.aacounty.org/Police/RulesRegs/Sections11-16/1502PPVProgram.pdf

http://www.flhsmv.gov/fhp/Manuals/0508.pdf

Also, why would you assume that all off duty officers were out of uniform?

LordTio3
March 29, 2011, 07:46 AM
Well, south of the Mason Dixon Line, I do know there are some departments which allow their officers to take home their vehicles. I'm not certain as to the logic behind it, but I suspect its a creative way to get more work out of the officers and to make it appear there are more officers patrolling the street.

It's actually a creative way to get officers to take premium care of their duty vehicle. When several officers have to share a vehicle between shifts, the poor cars tend to get bumped, mistreated, and ran dry. And when damage is noticed, you have to deal with all of the "That was already there..." statements before you assign blame and responsibility to one person. When an officer gets a take-home-car, they take care of it as if it was their own, and the department actually ends up paying less money in the long run for maintenance.

but I suggest you Google it and find out for yourself. Most officers earn more then the average citizen, are usually some of the top municipal earners and make well into six digits with full benefits paid and the opportunity to retire at age 50.

Holy cow! If this is true, then why isn't EVERYONE a police officer?!
... ... ... ...:rolleyes:. Being a cop comes pretty cheap when you consider what it SHOULD cost to salary someone at government wages for hazard pay every minute they are on the job. Find some other job that starts you at 30-40k a year. How likely are you to get shot or killed at that job? I find statements like this above offensive. We don't do enough for our officers, and many of them work daily in the face of criticism and disdain.

Thank you for your service.

***Back on topic***

Options are always good. Always. You don't have to use your other options; or even consider them. But they are good to have. Carrying other defense devices gives you more options. If you witness a male acquaintance assaulting a female friend, depending on your state, you can shoot him to stop him. But that is a big roll of the dice. There are so many unknowns: How will YOU deal with it? How will his family deal with it? How will the DA see it? Will you face a civil suit? Will you go to jail for murder because of a mistaken witness? Will you lose your gun rights forever?

If you decide to carry a taser, and you employ it effectively to stop the assault, even if the DA had it out for you, there was a mistaken witness, he and his family wanted to file a civil suit; the stakes are much lower. You face mistaken assault charges instead of mistaken murder charges. Why? Because you didn't have to kill him to stop him.


Now this is just one example... but if you picture a self-defense scenario like your run of the mill maintenance problem; would you rather go in there with a tool bag or an adjustable wrench?

~LT

teeroux
March 29, 2011, 09:02 AM
Salary and pay is an off-topic discussion, but I suggest you Google it and find out for yourself.

No I don't need google I found out the harder way, I work in law enforcement, left a job that paid almost 3 times as much too. But your right about one thing we are off topic.

Everyone who carries should have a means of non lethal defense. If you are skilled with tooth and claw thats fine, carry spray, taser, baton whatever thats good too. Those who aren't should seriously look into more training and/or something alternate to their firearm.

Why would you use anything other than a gun? if you beat a guy with a steel object you are assaulting another, if it is that bad then shoot him. Beat him you may be sued or arrested IMHO.

Its not neccissarily about the tool but the justification. I think you would be in a lot more trouble afterwards if you shot someone who was unarmed while defending yourself, than just clubbing or striking that person with an intermediate weapon even if you killed em. Most places that allow you to stand your ground allow a person defending themselves a level of force up from their assailant. I think you would have a lot less trouble conveing self defense if you whack a guy 3 or 5 times that obviously didn't get away from you after the first over just shooting him.

If there isn't means, ability or jeopardy. You need another option. Give yourself one.IMO

Eagle0711
March 29, 2011, 01:34 PM
Always have a knife to back up the gun. It's a tactical folder that can be passed off as a tool.

Eight years of professional trainning in Kenpo with a focus on the blade. Will I get cut in a knife fight if it turns out that way, yes. Am I afraid. No

BRE346
March 29, 2011, 04:51 PM
Can't fight, can't run. All he can do is shoot.

FM12
April 16, 2011, 09:10 PM
Numchucks if I feel the need.

stonewall50
April 16, 2011, 09:49 PM
Well if I have my pants on I have a knife. I do kali so I would say my skills have improved with the blade too, but if 29 rounds of 9mm hollow point aren't doing the trick I am probably will be locked up in the fetal position crying because the bad guy has me seriously outgunned.

Cruncher Block
April 16, 2011, 09:54 PM
Pepper spray -- everywhere except where prohibited.

The Sheriff's Department trained me on it years ago. It's not a guarantee but I've seen it work more often than not.

ClydeFrog
April 16, 2011, 10:15 PM
I started to carry a Mark III size can of chemical agent on my armed security details about 6 years ago. I've been state licensed & trained with firearms for many years but after a handful of incidents, I started to carry chemical agent on duty too.
The use of deadly force is the LAST line or level you must use in a real critical incident. To have a EDW/Taser or impact weapon(along with the formal skill training) you'll have a advantage.

ClydeFrog

stonewall50
April 17, 2011, 09:36 AM
Yea I would say that an importnt part of this discussion is WHY you carry. If you are LEO or security of some type that is one thing. If you are a civi that is another.