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AK103K
March 17, 2011, 06:48 AM
If you dont get American Handgunner, there is a digital edition here.....

http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHMJ11/

Starts at page 32.


This issue, Massad Ayoob has another after action report in his "Ayoob Files". It covers a shoot out between a cop and a suspect, both armed with .45ACPs, distance was about 5-6 feet. Guns were already out for both. 23 rounds expended in 5-10 seconds. Both shot to slide lock. The bad guy got one hit out of 9, the cop, 7 of 14. His comment at the end about why he thought his first rounds were probably "misses" is interesting.

Now, I know this is only one instance of something going on, but it does cover a number of things all in one, point shooting vs aimed fire, lower cap vs higher cap, .45's not being the "sword of Todd", staying aggressively determined and focused, etc.

mete
March 17, 2011, 07:06 AM
I just watched a news program where they showed a video of a robbery attempt at a convenience store .
Lots of shots fired , no one hit , BGs got away. The store owner had been robbed before so he got a gun .Well he forgot about training - wildly firing usually over the top of the shelves where he couldn't even see the BGs .The BGs did the same ,The owner also had gun problems as he kept pulling the slide back.
A good lesson on what not to do. Get the best training you can find and practice often -it might save your life .

AK103K
March 17, 2011, 07:34 AM
What went on here shows even with training (at least for the cop), things dont always go as they do on a static range and the target is shooting back.

When you do see the film clips and reports like the one above, you have to start to wonder just how well off you really are with those mouse guns and 5 shot J frames, when things get energetic and the target is moving and shooting back. Especially if the other side, even if it is only one guy, has a high cap gun and can stay in the fight longer.

Working on "realistic" basics beyond traditional "bullseye" type shooting, as well as having a proper mindset, should be strongly considered, or I think youre just fooling yourself. Having some grappling and disarm/retention skills are also a big plus.

gearhounds
March 17, 2011, 07:43 AM
"What went on here shows even with training (at least for the cop), things dont always go as they do on a static range and the target is shooting back."

Yep, for sure. And- Practice=muscle memory; practice moving and shooting and shooting while moving to cover if it is available. If you don't practice moving and shooting, when you have to do it, you will mostly be making noise and wasting precious ammo. When cover isn't immediately available, moving beats standing static.

bravo124
March 17, 2011, 08:44 AM
The officer was in "Condition Black". Like AK103K said. Not only do you need the proper training, the proper mind set is a must. I suggest reading Colonel Grossman's book "ON Combat". It explains what might happen to you before, during, and after a deadly force confrontation. It certainly helped me win my shootout. I don't know if I'm supposed to be recommending a book. If not, I'm Sorry. But if it helps one of our members win a gunfight, then it's okay with me.

mavracer
March 17, 2011, 09:48 AM
When you do see the film clips and reports like the one above, you have to start to wonder just how well off you really are with those mouse guns and 5 shot J frames, when things get energetic and the target is moving and shooting back.
It certainly would reinforce mindset if you are going to carry a low capacity firearm. I see in the reports two glaring mistakes the first is not focusing on his own shooting and the second was not reloading when he saw his slide not locked back. playing the hindsight is 20/20 game if he makes these mistakes with a revolver he is probably in big trouble, but if you fix the mindset from the start using and start at shot 7 with him focusing on his shooting it would seam to me he'd have faired just as well if not better.

Working on "realistic" basics beyond traditional "bullseye" type shooting, as well as having a proper mindset, should be strongly considered, or I think youre just fooling yourself. Having some grappling and disarm/retention skills are also a big plus.
very true.But I'd add that having the foresight to not leave the shotgun in the car when pursuing gangbangers would be a good idea too.

Seaman
March 17, 2011, 10:31 AM
Officer Lang faced a worse case scenario...a home invader who was well armed and determined to fight.

Specialty defence ammo does not always penerate to vital organ (according to Officer Lang)...in 45, fmj is likely better---just my opinion.

Point shooting is OK but more difficult with a 45. Aimed shooting is best, but when you only have 5, perhaps 10 seconds, the aimed accurate shot must be gotten off quickly.

High capacity worked out this time. A revolver would have been problematic.

All in all a very good result and I am happy to know Officer Lang came out of his crisis in good shape.

Interesting and critical information in the article.

AK103K, thank you for this.

Manco
March 17, 2011, 03:12 PM
That's why I use heavy, deep-penetrating loads that aren't any faster than they need to be (velocity can sometimes work against penetration, and sometimes for--it depends). I also use my Airsoft pistol in simulating all kinds of chaotic scenarios at home, which makes me feel silly sometimes (sort of like the "Star Wars Kid" swinging his broomstick around :)), but I think that it helps me prepare more realistically than I normally could at a typical shooting range. The result has been improved accuracy and speed when shooting from compromised positions and while on the move (I used to be off a lot when doing the latter, but hardly ever now), in addition to better point-shooting (gives me a faster first shot at bad-breath range since I can reliably hit the COM now). Hopefully I'll be able to combine the two forms of practice--Airsoft at home and real firearms at the range--if and when I ever need to.

AK103K
March 17, 2011, 03:57 PM
I see in the reports two glaring mistakes the first is not focusing on his own shooting and the second was not reloading when he saw his slide not locked back. playing the hindsight is 20/20 game if he makes these mistakes with a revolver he is probably in big trouble, but if you fix the mindset from the start using and start at shot 7 with him focusing on his shooting it would seam to me he'd have faired just as well if not better.
I dont think he had much choice here. He was just coming to a stop and within grabbing distance when the boy wheeled and fired. From that point on, it was all reaction while trying to catch up and get a hit anyway he could as fast as he could.

I dont know that he really had any chance to reload in the second or two lull before it started again. I think he had just realized his gun was still loaded when the boy started to get up again. I think he made the right choice to fire again, rather than to try and reload at that point. The final two rounds settled it and he did reload at that point. Keep in mind too, this whole thing start to finish was 5-10 seconds, depending on whos account. Thats about the time it took to read the last paragraph.

Seaman
March 17, 2011, 05:13 PM
Agreed.

After huffing and puffing chasing the perp down the cop had like, no time to reload. He was SWAT trained, shot his gun dry, and survived.

I used to think 5 rounds was enough in a streetfight. No more. The perp was slight of build, not a 300 lb gorilla, and he still took 8 hits, 7 to the body, and one to his Sig 220, all 45 ACP rounds. And the perp is still alive today...whoda thunk it?

This was a home invader, the kind of perp anyone might face. From here on out, I'll park my wheelgun & carry my hi-cap.

MrDontPlay
March 17, 2011, 05:27 PM
^or carry both:cool:

mavracer
March 17, 2011, 05:39 PM
I dont think he had much choice here. He was just coming to a stop and within grabbing distance when the boy wheeled and fired. From that point on, it was all reaction while trying to catch up and get a hit anyway he could as fast as he could.

I dont know that he really had any chance to reload in the second or two lull before it started again. I think he had just realized his gun was still loaded when the boy started to get up again. I think he made the right choice to fire again, rather than to try and reload at that point. The final two rounds settled it and he did reload at that point. Keep in mind too, this whole thing start to finish was 5-10 seconds, depending on whos account. Thats about the time it took to read the last paragraph.
Of course you would think that it supports your "needing a hi cap auto theory" but sincce we're playing monday morning quarterback here. I'd say it's pretty obvious that since he admitted none of the first 4 or 5 shots connected and he himself said if he'd had something to do different he'd have beared down and tried to take a head shot early on. That he most certainly had a choice.
As to the reload you have no way of knowing any better than I do. But that's why you practice reloadsand iMHO he should have reloaded cause A: perp did get up and B: thare were more perps in the area.

gearhounds
March 17, 2011, 05:59 PM
Huffing and puffing, being shot at, adrenaline, etc., it's doubtful the head was any easier to hit the the body (obviously), since we're MMQB'ing here. As statistics show, his hit ratio was pretty on par for cops in general. Thankfully, the perps was not.

I'll bet the officer here wasn't a thumbs forward shooter with sufficient muscle memory; if he was, he should have perforated the center of mass with 14 rounds. I'm no competition shooter, but I can dump a P220 mag at 3 yards in under 2 seconds into a pie pan after sprinting from the 50 yard line. MANY draw strokes and MANY trigger pulls daily. Muscle memory.

AK103K
March 17, 2011, 06:21 PM
Of course you would think that it supports your "needing a hi cap auto theory"...
My needing a hi cap is my personal choice. I prefer to have something that gives me more options overall, some dont. Couldnt care less if you carry less, thats for you to deal with if and when the need ever arises.

In this case, even after firing three more rounds than his opponent, he still had a couple left in the short interval when it was initially done, which is exactly where I'd prefer to be. Better that, than to be in slide lock or hitting empty chambers and now fumbling for a reload or second gun.

In something running in a different time frame I would agree with you on some things here. But in this case, I think he did the best he could with what he was dealt and he acted properly with the reload. I really dont think he had time to even consider it, let alone act on it here, before he had to continue. I believe I would have done the same thing he did. What ever is left in the gun right now, is better than trying to do a reload, and a full mag to late.

Again, the time frame here was a matter of seconds. In a more expanded time frame, the reload might have been more appropriate. In this case, I dont think he'd have even had time to grab a BUG, which is often faster than the reload itself. He still had a threat, and he still had a loaded gun, and he was in a much better position than his opponent, who was at slide lock.

He did reload immediately after his gun was dry too, so he was still on top of things if things did expand after the fact.

He also stayed focused on winning the fight, and did what was necessary to do so, even if his methods and techniques dont meet the approval of the internet experts.

mavracer
March 17, 2011, 07:23 PM
I think he did the best he could with what he was dealt and he acted properly with the reload. I really dont think he had time to even consider it, let alone act on it here, before he had to continue.
If it's all the same with you I'll use officer Lang's assessment over yours. He said he thought he'd have faired better if he'd have focussed on his shooting earlier. And I can't pull it up cause I'm on my phone but I thought he expressed regret that he didn't reload when the perp started to rise. This would lead me to believe he thought he had time.
Also this still doesn't negate the fact that this was a proactive gun fight which it seams IMHO some people seam to think a hi cap hangun is a good answer to this I'd rather have the forethought to leave the revolver in my holster and grab the shotgun from the cruiser.

WVsig
March 17, 2011, 08:07 PM
Also this still doesn't negate the fact that this was a proactive gun fight which it seams IMHO some people seam to think a hi cap hangun is a good answer to this I'd rather have the forethought to leave the revolver in my holster and grab the shotgun from the cruiser.

+1 ;)

AK103K
March 17, 2011, 08:20 PM
If it's all the same with you I'll use officer Lang's assessment over yours.
Knock yourself out.

He said he thought he'd have faired better if he'd have focussed on his shooting earlier.
Yes, he did.

but I thought he expressed regret that he didn't reload when the perp started to rise.
No mention of it in the article. Simply that he knew the gun was still loaded with "something". He reloaded at the end when his gun was empty.

some people seam to think a hi cap hangun is a good answer to this
And apparently, he did, and still does too, by his choices, the .45, and its subsequent replacements.

I'd rather have the forethought to leave the revolver in my holster and grab the shotgun from the cruiser.
Shoulda, coulda, woulda. You run what ya brung, no matter how much you wished you had something else thats back in the car.

Im sure if he thought it was appropriate, he would have drug a rifle or shotgun along, but he didnt.

mavracer
March 18, 2011, 07:19 AM
No mention of it in the article. Simply that he knew the gun was still loaded with "something".
I guess that it was between the assessment of the gun being still being loaded and the "I realized I was bleeding and tried to slow down my breathing" that give me the impression that he would have had time to reload.
Besides even if he didn't provided he had been practicing proper reload technique and had the mag in his weak hand before tripping the mag release he'd still be able to fire the two rounds. even if he does trip the mag release Glocks don't have a mag safety so he'd still have a loaded functioning gun.

smince
March 18, 2011, 08:31 AM
He said he thought he'd have faired better if he'd have focussed on his shooting earlier.Monday morning quarterbacking himself. In different incidents I've been in, I can look back and see things I would have did differently, but during the stress of the event, those things were far from my mind.

With bullets flying towards him, the officer probably had other thoughts at that time as well.

AK103K
March 18, 2011, 09:13 AM
I guess that it was between the assessment of the gun being still being loaded and the "I realized I was bleeding and tried to slow down my breathing" that give me the impression that he would have had time to reload.
I think whats being missed here is the time frame of the entire incident, start to finish. 5-10 seconds. In that time, there were actually two parts, the first initial flurry, a slight pause, and then the second.

He seems to understand he needed to reload at some point, and in the second or two after the initial flurry while coming out of the tunnel, from his comments, it was probably starting to head into that direction, as his head and thoughts started to clear, but it started again before it got that far.


I know we need to practice, and should practice as realistically as we can (whats your current drill for reloading in under 2 seconds while rolling around on the ground with a threat 5 feet away? :)), as often as we can, but just keep in mind, things like this are a living thing, and once started, go where they go as they unfold, and you start improvising and go along. Solving the problem isnt scripted and directed on this range.

This cop seemed to have decent training and mindset, and while he realized after the fact (the old woulda, coulda, shouda, and next time, maybe, thing again) he would have been better off getting on the sights sooner, the fact is, at that point, he was on the back side of the curve and his brain went into survival mode, and just reacted trying to catch up, and went from there.

mavracer
March 18, 2011, 09:16 AM
With bullets flying towards him, the officer probably had other thoughts at that time as well.
I'll paraphrase Jeff Cooper here the only thing you should be thinking about, when somebody is shooting at you, is your shooting.

AK103K
March 18, 2011, 09:42 AM
I'll paraphrase Jeff Cooper here the only thing you should be thinking about, when somebody is shooting at you, is your shooting.
Well, I would certainly hope its in the loop.

Along with a few other somewhat important things.

MLeake
March 18, 2011, 09:46 AM
... is why higher capacity is a bad thing.

Given that it meets other constraints (grip fits the hand comfortably, pistol isn't too bulky or heavy for concealed carry, etc), what is the downside to higher capacity?

Please bear in mind, guns do not cause spray and pray. Given a reasonably well trained, reasonably disciplined shooter, what advantage is there to having fewer bullets?

mavracer
March 18, 2011, 09:56 AM
Given that it meets other constraints (grip fits the hand comfortably, pistol isn't too bulky or heavy for concealed carry, etc), what is the downside to higher capacity?

Please bear in mind, guns do not cause spray and pray. Given a reasonably well trained, reasonably disciplined shooter, what advantage is there to having fewer bullets?

Would you deny that having a hi cap gun in the holster can affect mindset?

MLeake
March 18, 2011, 10:02 AM
... you are making the common error of blaming a training problem on equipment.

AK103K
March 18, 2011, 10:38 AM
Please bear in mind, guns do not cause spray and pray.
Correct. And this is even at the level of guns that truly can.

Would you deny that having a hi cap gun in the holster can affect mindset?
Possibly with an untrained, or under trained shooter, but not with a "reasonably" trained shooter.

Perhaps its the mindset and not the weapon thats being mis thought here, and causing the hand wringing.

Are you of the more cautious "shoot a couple and assess" school of thought? Or the more aggressive "shoot them to the ground" school of thought?

Since handguns are historically poor stoppers, the latter makes more sense to me. If the target is still in my sights, it keeps getting shot, until its not, or its down and not moving. If there are multiple opponents, then things may change a little as they begin to gain life, and what happens next may be a little different compared to just one, but everyones getting a dose and I plan on being a greedy pusher, not a cautious doctor.

Your opponent might only need one round, or he may need ten, whos to say? Reality is, it takes what it takes until its done, not what someone else says it should or why its not working or didnt work.

Theres no "spraying" going on, and it will be very deliberate and aggressive, and as focused as I can give it, and for as long as I can give it. If you "pray", you can do so later, if there is a later.

smince
March 18, 2011, 11:15 AM
the only thing you should be thinking about, when somebody is shooting at you, is your shooting.Evidently he was, therefore he wasn't really thinking about a reload until doing his after-action assessment.Or the more aggressive "shoot them to the ground" school of thought?That's be me...;)

mavracer
March 18, 2011, 11:37 AM
you are making the common error of blaming a training problem on equipment.
Only because so often equipment is used in lieu of training.
Possibly with an untrained, or under trained shooter, but not with a "reasonably" trained shooter.
I believe the report at hand goes a long way to disprove that theory. I would say that officer Lang was more than "reasonably" trained and started the gunfight in "spray and pray" mode it wasn't until he realized that it wasn't working that he returned to his mindset of "front sight trigger"

Perhaps its the mindset and not the weapon thats being mis thought here, and causing the hand wringing.
I would agree with that.It would be my stance that a "revolver" mentality of making every shot count with a hi cap gun would make a dangerous man.

AK103K
March 18, 2011, 12:01 PM
I believe the report at hand goes a long way to disprove that theory. I would say that officer Lang was more than "reasonably" and started the gunfight in "spray and pray" mode it wasn't until he realized that it wasn't working that he returned to his mindset of "front sight trigger"
I dont think it would have mattered here if he had a revolver or a high cap, other than it could well have been different if he ran through the revolvers 6 or 7 shots at the onset.

Regardless how well you train, there is always going to reactionary shooting, like this, where you dont have a choice. He was reacting and shooting as the gun was coming up, which is a normal response at those distances. Im sure he'd have been stroking the revolvers trigger just as quick as he was pulling the autos trying to repy to the inital shots. The fact the P220 was hit, shows where his focus was, and its a common thing for the gun, hands, and forearms to be hit because of that, as the brain is focusing on the "actual threat", instead of the kill switch.

Id also be very surprised if they were just standing there, toe to toe, hammering away at each other. Im sure there was some moment going on, at least until he went prone. I think this is where a lot of misconceptions come from when the only thing shot at, are static targets while the shooter is also static. Just put the shooter in motion, and those wonderful, tight, and impressive little groups everyone likes to brag about, tend to open up a little, and miss altogether in many cases. Put both shooters in motion, and now the target isnt playing fair and where you think it should be, and the "groups" tend to get bigger and miss even more.

I would agree with that.It would be my stance that a "revolver" mentality of making every shot count with a hi cap gun would make a dangerous man.
Ideally, thats it right there. In reality, the high cap allows a little more leeway if things dont go as perfectly as they do on the range.

Catfishman
March 18, 2011, 03:36 PM
"One shot did massive nerve damage tracking up the BG's arm but didn't exit the arm to reenter the chest."

The officer believed this would have ended the shootout sooner.

This is a pretty good argument for the 10mm and against some of these overdesigned high-end hollowpoints.


This police officer did a great job. He was doing the "dirty work" that civilians don't have to. He chased down a suspect that he thought might be armed. The suspect spun around shooting at him. That's about as bad as it gets. But, he still won.

Manco
March 22, 2011, 10:41 AM
Reading about incidents like this is what drives me to keep training, even when it starts to feel repetitious. When the situation goes to crap (despite my best efforts to avoid confrontation and escalation), I'm pumped up on adrenaline, and with guns going off around and in front of me, I want my reaction to be as ingrained as instinct or even more so if that's possible: placing my shots deliberately and accurately on target until the threat has ended. This is something people have to actively work at, both physically and psychologically. Generally whatever has not become instinctual will be forgotten or at least delayed, and in dire situations that could be bad.

pax
March 22, 2011, 11:23 AM
Manco,

Excellent post. That's where I'm at, too.

It's astonishing, the number of people who don't believe they need training -- or who believe that the one 8-hour class they took six years ago (doing skills they haven't been able to practice since then) would be enough to see them through something like this.

Kathy

kraigwy
March 22, 2011, 12:32 PM
Awful lot of "second guessing" "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" going on here.

Point shooting is OK but more difficult with a 45. Aimed shooting is best, but when you only have 5, perhaps 10 seconds, the aimed accurate shot must be gotten off quickly.

Every shoot International Rapid Fire Pistol? You need your sights and you need speed. You have 5 targets, from the Ready, (arm with pistol pointed down at 45 degrees). The target turns you have 8 seconds to fire at each target once. Stage II, same thing only 6 seconds, Stage III, same but 4 seconds.

This is at 25 meters, the 10-X ring is about the same size as the 10 ring on the NRA PPC target.

This will humble you, but it'll teach you to shoot.

Now back on topic. Everyone should read "SHOOTING TO LIVE" by Captain's W.E. Fairbairn & E.A. Sykes. They were involved with the Shanghai Police when street gangs ruled the city. They addressed over 600 shootings that show what pistols (even 45 ACPs) will or will not do in actual shoot outs. It will scare you.

AK103K
March 22, 2011, 12:39 PM
A little force on force practice will also show you that at farther distances than you might think, you can easily hit a moving target, under stress, while you too are moving, and not necessarily be using your "sights".

But, like anything else, you do have to practice, and do so on a somewhat regular basis, to keep your skills up.

Target shooting, and "shooting to live", dont really have a lot in common. If youre only basing your skills on the first, I dont think youre likely to accomplish the second, unless maybe luck is on your side.

kraigwy
March 22, 2011, 01:17 PM
Target shooting, and "shooting to live", dont really have a lot in common

I disagree, you need both. Target shooting teaches mussel memory and fundamentals, you need need mussel memory and fundamentals in shooting to live.

Seaman
March 22, 2011, 01:39 PM
Am aware of two separate incidents where a woman was held hostage at knifepoint, in both cases a rescue shot was not taken, the distance about 10 to 15 feet. Both women were stabbed and died. Both perps were subsequently shot.

If someone is holding my daughter at knifepoint, I will take the shot. That's where I believe target shooting is critical to survival.

AK103K
March 22, 2011, 01:59 PM
I disagree, you need both.
No, youre right, I guess I didnt put it right.

What I was meaning to say was, if all you have to go on is target shooting, youre most likely to come up short in the other. But it seems a lot of people base their skill levels on what they do on a static range, just leisurely shooting tight little groups at a bullseye targets. To me, "target" shooting is the basics, and you should already have those down.

Beyond that, is where I think the "shooting to live" part comes in, and while the basics are very important, you need to bump things up some and move on to putting them to use in a more unconventional fashion compared to your usual range trips.

Along with all that, you have to get over the "little group" thing, and realize, a "good hit" is a good hit (and realistically, any hit is a good hit, some are just better than others), even if its not your usual group that you just shot.

Does that get it across better?

AK103K
March 22, 2011, 02:10 PM
Am aware of two separate incidents where a woman was held hostage at knifepoint, in both cases a rescue shot was not taken, the distance about 10 to 15 feet. Both women were stabbed and died. Both perps were subsequently shot.

If someone is holding my daughter at knifepoint, I will take the shot. That's where I believe target shooting is critical to survival.
I agree, and I'd "probably" take the shot too.

This is one "target" I practice all the time, and in a number of different ways. None start from your basic target stance, most form a holster or a SUL position, and often while moving. Distances usually from 3-5 yards out to 15 or so yards. I also include one or two other targets in the drill, but this one (on the left) is usually the "start".

On a lighter note, I told my wife I practice that target for her, which made her happy. Then I said she'll know when Im mad at her if I come home and the holes in the target are reversed. I swear, women have no sense of humor! Jeez! :D

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0cf02b3127ccefbfa59e40e2400000030O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/