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ckpj99
March 13, 2011, 10:35 PM
Handgunners,

There are tons of different shooting skills out there. From engaging flying targets to long range rifle shooting. But I would imagine a lot of handgun shooters spend most of their time at the range poking holes in stationary paper targets.

So what is "good" or "great" at the range?

How fast can a "good" shooter unload six rounds into an 8 inch circle at 7 yards?

How tight is a "good" shooter's slow-fire group at 10 yards or 25 yards?

I'd like to know how I stand up against the "good" and even the "best" shooters out there.

Is there a place where I can find stats like this?

Hope you guys might have some hard numbers that I can start trying to beat!

On a sidenote, I'm curious to know if people time themselves at the range, and if so, how do you do it. Is there a special timer you buy?

Jake Balam
March 13, 2011, 10:44 PM
I'm good if I hit where I'm aiming at.

I'm no competition shooter, or sniper, but I'm proficient enough to defend myself.

JohnKSa
March 13, 2011, 10:51 PM
There are electronic shot timers that you can use to keep track of your performance times. They will work best if you're alone at the range. Otherwise you'll have trouble with other people's shots interfering with the device.

Here's one example: http://www.pact.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=63

Here are some training drills and some testing standards that may answer some of your questions and provide you some ways to improve your skills.

http://www.kuci.uci.edu/~dany/firearms/drills.html
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunDrills.pdf
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards1.pdf

Morgo
March 14, 2011, 12:28 AM
Going of my club and the shooters we have we work on 3" groups standing unsupported at 25 yards would be good, 2" would be very good and 1" would be excellent.

6rds into a 8" circle at only 7 yards. A good shooter will be able to keep them all in at a very fast rate, almost as fast as you can pull the trigger.

Slow fire groups at 10yards, 1 ragged hole. At 25 yards see above.

It should be noted that most good target shooters are not using off the shelf ammo but rather handloaded ammo tailored to suit them and their handgun.

kraigwy
March 14, 2011, 12:37 AM
I'd like to know how I stand up against the "good" and even the "best" shooters out there

Go to a match that caters to your style of shooting and compete, Look at the results.

Personally I don't care where I stand compared to anyone else. I've played that game for too many years shooting for the NG.

Now I shoot against my self, and I shoot for fun.

Dr. Strangelove
March 14, 2011, 01:24 AM
Go to a match that caters to your style of shooting and compete, Look at the results.

That's the way to do it, I've won shooting a bone stock Yugo 59/66 SKS in military matches against Garand guys, and had my butt handed to me by 75 year old women (no slight intended) in other matches.:o

If you want to know how good you are, compete, it's a blast, and you'll meet some really good people.

BigBob3006
March 14, 2011, 04:30 AM
ckpj99,

It has been my experience that two indispensable factors in shooting are concentration and commitment. These two cover the entire spectrum of shooting. Practise will help a shooter improve, but without these two, a shooter will be an also ran. Talent and equipment cannot pick up the slack.

The fastest man with a pistol that I know of was a thick handed gentleman from Montana by the name of Ed McGivern. Ed did things with a handgun that seem, beyond imagination. Using scientific measuring equipment Ed shot six shots from the old long action S&W in .4 of a second from seven yard into a playing card sized group. Fanning a single action colt, he fanned five shots into a hand sized group, at seven yards in .8 of a seconds. It is out of print but Ed wrote a book entitled "Fast And Fancy Shooting. If you could find a copy, it will give you goals that can drive you crazy. I don't know how deeply you want to get into this, but Hollywood finally got one right one right. There will always be someone faster. :o

At one time I did a lot of practise and demonstration shooting. The best I could do with gun in hand was six shots into a palm of the hand sized group in 1.5 seconds. From the holster I took 1.9 seconds. Time was started by a light going on and stopped by the last bullet going through a beam of light 1' square. I used to be quite proud of myself until I met Bill Jordan. Then like any man not a fool, I left my M-27 S&W in its holster. I was pretty good, but Bill Jordan was fast. At that time the PD paid for my ammo, and I had to load the .38 Spec. cases with a 148gr wad cutter and 2.5gr Bullseye with Winchester primers. In my heavy N frame S&W there was very little recoil. I got to use the departments Hollywood Star Progressive machine. That was the only Progressive around in those days.

At ten and twenty-five yards a good target shooter would shoot X ring groups. I'm not sure but I think the X ring was one inch on the twenty-five yard target and the bull was three inches. I didn't think I'd ever forget those dimensions.

If you want to time yourself there are acoustical timers available that will give you the total time as well as the time between shots for a preset total number of shots.

You mention shooting at a range. I seriously doubt if a public range worth its salt will allow the type of shooting you seem to have in mind.

Bartholomew Roberts
March 14, 2011, 08:37 AM
On a sidenote, I'm curious to know if people time themselves at the range, and if so, how do you do it. Is there a special timer you buy?

Also, if you have a smartphone, there are several apps that let you convert your smartphone into a shot timer that you can download for free (though I still prefer a dedicated shot timer).

Slopemeno
March 14, 2011, 10:20 AM
Join your local USPSA or IDPA club. You'll improve to a remarkable degree in your first year, plus you'll get to meet a bunch of like-minded people.

Hook686
March 14, 2011, 11:24 AM
hmmmmmm I suggest you believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see.

Amin Parker
March 14, 2011, 11:30 AM
If you can hit what you aiming at in quick succession you good enough.

Like others have mentioned, pit yourself against others at a competition and see what happens. The result is usually very different because there is lots of stress involved. Try Bowling Pin Shooting.

Manco
March 14, 2011, 12:21 PM
6rds into a 8" circle at only 7 yards. A good shooter will be able to keep them all in at a very fast rate, almost as fast as you can pull the trigger.

Slow fire groups at 10yards, 1 ragged hole. At 25 yards see above.

According to these standards, at rapid fire I'm very good, but at slow fire I suck. :)

Japle
March 14, 2011, 12:29 PM
How fast can a "good" shooter unload six rounds into an 8 inch circle at 7 yards?
Four seconds from the draw. Really good (non-pro) shooters can do it under three seconds.
A good timer is a great asset.

You'll never know whether you're a good shooter until you compete.
It's easy to bring home your best target and think you're pretty hot.
It's another thing to see where you place on the final score sheet.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=759103


How tight is a "good" shooter's slow-fire group at 10 yards or 25 yards?

If the gun is an accurate one, 25 yard groups under 3" should be routine.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/2254wtarget.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/Argywtarget.jpg

Mello2u
March 14, 2011, 03:45 PM
ckpj99,

As you noted in your OP, there are many different types of target shooting skills or courses of fire.

I do not care for handgun target shooting which is solely concerned with making the smallest group of holes in an unlimited time.

When I shoot a handgun it is in the defensive mode. I was taught and subscribe to the Jeff Cooper school which balances three principles:
Diligentia - Accuracy
Vis - Power
Celeritas - Quickness

When you strap on your handgun for the day you choose Vis - Power. You have what you have.

If conditions arise where you go from condition "Yellow" to "Orange" or "Red" and deploy your weapon, you may then have to balance Diligentia - Accuracy versus Celeritas - Quickness; if the situation actually calls for the use of deadly force.

In defensive pistol practice the general rule is that if you can place all of your shots inside of an eight inch circle center of mass within certain time frames you are accurate enough.

What is that time frame? It varies with distance. The longer the distance the longer the time frame which is acceptable.

In Gregory Morrison' book "The Modern Technique of the Pistol" published in 1991 by Gunsite Press in the Appendix on page 143 is a set of Skill Maintenance Exercises.

Assuming you are using the Gunsite target, it calls for:
start with facing the target
3 yards: single head shot, starting holstered, in 1.5 seconds.
7 yards: single head shot, starting holstered, in 2.0 seconds.
7 yards: pair of shots to chest, starting holstered, in 2.0 seconds.
10 yards: two shots to the chest, reload, and hit two more to the chest in 5 seconds.
10 yards: Face to the right (3 o'clock) turn, draw and place two shots to the chest in 2.0 seconds. Repeat facing left (9 o'clock).
There are more but these suffice to give you an indication of what is good or competent (as taught at Gunsite).

"Acquiring the optimum balance of speed and accuracy must be the objective of the foregoing exercises. Completing these exercises with a perfect score (no shots out of the x-ring except the head shots) indicates that one possesses a time cushion. You must make an effort to pick up speed." Gregory Boyce Morrison

Gunsite target (poor image)
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb197/farwalker/OPTIONTARGETcopy.jpg

zukiphile
March 14, 2011, 04:04 PM
What makes you a good shot at the range?


Practice.

How you stack up against other shooters will depend on who you are shooting with.

I've belonged to clubs in which I was the best or second best (depending on who was having a good or bad day). I've also shot with guys who replenished my sense of inadequacy.

Practicing and enjoying the challenge of improvement are what let people like me with modest talent shoot with naturally good shooters.

mavracer
March 14, 2011, 04:56 PM
I've also shot with guys who replenished my sense of inadequacy.
Ever want to really feel that sensesation RO the "god squad" at a major IPSC match.utterly humbling.
To the OP if you need to ask you probably need to practice.
I always thought the el presidenta was a good easy way to judge.three IPSC or IDPA targets at 10 meters spaced 1 meter apart. Shoot 2 rounds into eaach target, reload and shoot 2 more into each target. 4 seconds 0 points down will win this stage at any match

Old Grump
March 14, 2011, 06:14 PM
From 7 yards a preacher buddy of mine can empty his 38 into the target before i can get my second shot off. At 25 yards he is only mediocre and I'm shooting tight groups. He marvels that I can hit bowling pins and clay pigeons at 200 yards with any handgun from 22 to 44 magnum. I would say we were both good shots but different.

You wouldn't want either of us shooting at you with a rifle with any sights but beyond 300 yards I beat him, I was trained as a long range shooter, he wasn't.

Shotgun - Birds on the wing he has me beat. Deer at 60 to 120 yards it is my deer, not his.

Like I said, both good but different.

A marksman can hit what he shoots at, method of shooting, up to marksman.

Catfishman
March 14, 2011, 06:50 PM
I can hit bowling pins and clay pigeons at 200 yards with any handgun from 22 to 44 magnum.

Really? A clay pigeon is what about a 4.5 inch circle.

I line up 10 of them 15 yards away and feel proud when I can hit 10 out of 10fairly quickly.

Double Naught Spy
March 14, 2011, 07:20 PM
So what is "good" or "great" at the range?
It all depends. I suck compared to where I was 5 years ago but am a great shooter compared to where I was 10 years ago. This difference is one of practice and consistency.

How fast can a "good" shooter unload six rounds into an 8 inch circle at 7 yards?
I never did this specific test, but we used to do 9" pie plates at 10 yards with 5 shot groups from the ready position and it would take a half second to be on target and shots for me were never faster than .30 seconds (averaged) with all 5 hitting. I was not the fastest of my group. That was shooting full load 230 gr .45 acp from a 1911.

How tight is a "good" shooter's slow-fire group at 10 yards or 25 yards?

For your non-professional plinker 3" and 6" for a very good shooter. That isn't competition quality, but good enough for most people's needs.

On a sidenote, I'm curious to know if people time themselves at the range, and if so, how do you do it. Is there a special timer you buy?
Clint Smith is a bit noted for saying there are not timers in gun fights. It is somewhat true and at the same time a stupid condemnation. Turns out, there are timers at any recorded (audio, video, both) gun fight, only the shooters don't recognize the timer being present, but timing is often studied as part of the forensics analysis of the shoot.

Personally, I see timers as a way to measure progress and not as an opponent to beat. Unlike how some people train and maybe what Smith should have said, nobody shoots it out with a timer in a gun fight. They shoot it out with real people. Fight the person, not the clock. If just for training purposes, then you fight yourself, so to speak, but measuring your performance and the affect your training is having, positive or negative and adjusting if needed.

A guy I trained with enjoyed ribbing us on our speed when our target performance was less than perfect. He would say, "That boy is fast!" and holding up the clock for all to see. He would then add, "He can't hit squat, but he is fast! First to reload usually doesn't mean first to win a fight."

He marvels that I can hit bowling pins and clay pigeons at 200 yards with any handgun from 22 to 44 magnum.

Yeah, I am always amazed with proclamations substantially better performance that what the manufacturer and reviewers note are within the normal performance specs for said firearms....assuming the clay pigeons and bowling pins are of the typical standard sizes.

With an NAA mini KJ gets 5" at 7 yards. I don't see clay pigeons being hit with regularity at 200 yards with such a gun. http://www.naaminis.com/news13.pdf

liberty -r- death
March 14, 2011, 07:32 PM
The best way to improve your timing and accuracy is to compete with against other shooters. Joining a shooting league is a great way to do it and still not be too competitive.

Old Grump
March 15, 2011, 11:53 AM
Didn't say how often I hit them but hit them I do, 5 gallon bucket pretty regular, pins and clays maybe 30%. Plenty of witnesses from carpenters to preachers to assistant chief of police. Even my misses are inside a foot with all my guns but one. No big trick to it just takes a little patience, concentration and basic fundamentals. Biggest thrill of the day is to coach a new shooter who has never fired any farther than the usual SD targets and get him to shooting way out beyond. Gives them more confidence in what their gun can do and does wonders in instilling more confidence in their own abilities.

I'm willing to go to the range with anybody in my area and shoot with them so they can see for themselves. If they are long range shooters all the better, if they aren't they will be by the time they leave.

Special invite to Catfishman and Double Naught Spy. I talk better with my guns than my mouth.

ltc444
March 15, 2011, 02:17 PM
Do you enjoy what you do? If so then you are good.

Have fun, be safe and don't worry about the prima donnas.

Find a style of shooting which matches your temprament and go for it.

Shooting for me is a way to find a space were all my troubles care and worries go away. It puts me in a ZEN state.

Have fun and don't worry about it.

threegun
March 15, 2011, 07:34 PM
Good practice makes you a good shot.

Personally it depends on your devotion to practice. I would loose to guys like Jerry Miculek or Dave Sevigny. I beat most of the field when I compete locally. The most important however is surviving on the street and we just don't know how we will do until it happens. So get as accurate as possible, as fast as possible, and as tactically savvy as possible. Then don't worry about the rest.

MrBorland
March 15, 2011, 08:39 PM
I always thought the el presidenta was a good easy way to judge.three IPSC or IDPA targets at 10 meters spaced 1 meter apart. Shoot 2 rounds into eaach target, reload and shoot 2 more into each target. 4 seconds 0 points down will win this stage at any match

Yep - sure will. On the El Prez, that's a hit factor of 15 (= 60 points/4 seconds). According to this USPSA Classifier Percentage Calculator (http://www.classifiercalc.com/), that's better than 100% of all USPSA shooters, in any division. IOW, it's never been done - at least as part of an official classifier. :rolleyes:

IMO:

From the draw, all 6 shots on an 8" circle at 7-10 yards? Anything under 3 seconds is good. 2-ish is mighty fine.

El Prez? Depends on the platform, but using a standard service revolver, a consistent and clean sub-10s is very good. In the low 8s is mighty fine. Moonclip wheelgunners can take 0.5 - 1 second off that. Semi-auto guys, 1 -1.5 seconds, I'm guessing.

Accuracy at 25 yards? IMO, a good, but not excellent shooter with a service-sized handgun should be able to shoot honest and consistent 3" 5-shot freestyle unsupported groups onto an NRA 25yard slow-fire target. Revolver shooters should be able to do this shooting single and double action. Excellent would be consistently 2.5" or less.

As some noted, being able to do the 1st 2 doesn't mean the 3rd is automatic, and vice versa.

But I would imagine a lot of handgun shooters spend most of their time at the range poking holes in stationary paper targets.

Shooters at a typical local range often seem to shoot like this, but they don't usually present much of a bar to surpass, either.

I'd like to know how I stand up against the "good" and even the "best" shooters out there.

Is there a place where I can find stats like this?

Shooting matches is where you start to see what's possible & achievable. And I'm not referring to some big match that draws sponsored shooters, either: You'll likely see some impressive shooting even at your local match.

Short of that, you could get some USPSA targets and a par timer and shoot some actual USPSA classifiers (1st link), then use the Calculator below to see how you'd rank among USPSA shooters.

http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/
http://www.classifiercalc.com/


If you're wondering how your target accuracy stacks up, get some 25 yard slow fire (NRA B-16) targets and shoot a bunch of 10-shot unsupported 25 yard groups. Calculate your average score and see how you compare (keeping in mind that bullseye shooters also shoot at 50 yards, and do all their shooting 1-handed):

High Master: 97.00 and above
Master: 95.00 to 96.99
Expert: 90.00 to 94.99
Sharpshooter: 85.00 to 89.99
Marksman: Below 85.00

mavracer
March 15, 2011, 09:04 PM
Mr Borland you are correct I actually posted that and had every intention to add to it. I'd definatly agree with your assesment 6.5 seconds with a bottom feeder is pretty good. The pros will be under 5.
For accuracy at 25 yards I'd say 3" 5 shot group offhand is pretty good

Old Grump
March 16, 2011, 01:00 PM
This is the one gun, H&R 922, I do not consider a 200 yard shooter. I bought it new in 69 in San Diego California because as a newly married sailor I didn't have a lot of money to burn. In spite of it being the hardest to shoot because of its awful trigger pull and thin knife edged front sight and my old eyes waiting for cataract surgery it still does this at 25 yards and 100 yards. Not good enough for squirrel but still minute of rabbit...most of the time. Both targets shot standing off hand, (one hand unsupported.)

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/7041/bigsmallborebullseyetar.th.jpg (http://img854.imageshack.us/i/bigsmallborebullseyetar.jpg/) http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/3312/sept222010swm4122100yar.th.jpg (http://img522.imageshack.us/i/sept222010swm4122100yar.jpg/)http://

As awful as that gun is it literally taught me to shoot handguns. I had given up my pistols and quit the pistol team because I wasn't improving and it was no longer fun. Instead I spent 9 months running around the desert shooting jack rabbits with this gun and I had to learn patience, grip, sight, breath and trigger control if I was going to put a rabbit in the freezer. Things my coach had tried to teach me but I was to bone headed to learn. 9 months later I stopped in to watch a match. they were a member short so they loaned me guns and ammo, signed me up and I not only won my class but advanced a class that day. The difference was I was not expecting to win, there was no pressure on me but all the hard work I had put in playing in the desert just transferred to the target pistol I was shooting.

I guess if I had to define the qualities of a good shooter the number one thing I would have to say is attitude. If it isn't right you will not become as good as you can be.

BigBob3006
March 17, 2011, 02:47 AM
hook686,

Hook, are you tring to say that I lie like a Persian rug. Well do you know what, I don't blame you a bit. It does sound a little far fetched doesn't it. Well let me give you a little more information. First of all no one is going to learn how to do it except by doing it. There lies the rub. IMHO, tring to learn to shoot at speed by shooting at speed will only result in your picking up so many bad habits you may never learn how to do it correctly. The same is true with the speed draw. It helps if you have someone work with you who knows what to look for. A friend who wants to learn the same things that you do is also a big help. You are going to do everything S L O W L Y. Look at yourself in a upright mirror. Practise with your carry piece MAKE SURE IT IS EMPTY. Start from your normal upright stance. At this point do not wear a jacket. Move your hand to the grip. Now take the pistol from your holster and point it at you in the mirror. Now shut your eyes. and slowly replace the pistol in your holster. did you make it in the first trip? Did the pistol feel the same in your hand when it was holstered as it did when it was pointing at the mirror? When you reach for the pistol grip, do you go straight to it? Do you have a full grip on the pistol grips or do you have to search for it. Do not start to move the pistol from the holster until you have a full firm hold of the grip. From now on you start you point from your elbow. When you have the pistol pointing at your target the pointing line starts from your elbow, straight down the middle of your forearm to your wrist, the wrist should not be bent, straight down your pistol barrel to the target. Elevation is done at the elbow. Minor movements left and right are made from the shoulder. The wrist should never go soft. Large adjustments right and left are done from the feet or waist. After you get some experience you will feel the difference in your body. Remember all this is done slowly. When you reach the point that you can hit a tennis ball five out of six shots then you can slowly increase your speed to half speed.

When you start working with ammo, everything goes back to slow speed. Be sure that you have a bank or other safe target to shoot towards. And slowly increase your speed to half speed. There is never a reason to draw at full speed for practise. 3/4 speed is as fast as there is a need to draw at.

Well there it is, do that over a two year period and you will be proficient.
Don't worry, if the need ever arises that you need the speed, you'll have it.
All that slow movement you went through will train the memory of your muscles.

iMagUdspEllr
March 17, 2011, 06:28 AM
I don't mean to hijack the thread but most of the responses to the OP's question state accuracy and time requirements independent of stating with X gun and Y ammunition.

On average it seems most production pistols are only capable of 3" or maybe 2" groups with the guns favorite ammo (not getting into hand-loaded ammo). So you literally can't do any better than: 3" at 25 yards, 1.8" @ 15 yards, 1.2" @ 10 yards, and .6" @ 5 yards.

Unless you hand-load your ammo and/or you are using a handgun with above average precision you can't do better than that. The ammo and the pistol limit you too much. Revolvers are inherently more accurate than this though... so you might want to use a revolver or maybe a .22 in order to surpass that.

FM12
March 19, 2011, 11:13 AM
Watch videos of Jerry Miculek. Get better than him and be REALLY Good!!

threegun
March 21, 2011, 02:39 PM
Get better than him and be REALLY Good!!

Get better than Jerry with a revolver? Do that and you will be the best.

I had the luxury of watching Jerry shoot in 1995. As he talked to us in the crowd, he was popping a full moon clip in and out of his revolver, while looking at the crowd. He never missed and I lost count after 12 times. He did it many more times than that.

A friend of mine (Cliff Walsh) recently beat Jerry with the revolver. He said that Jerry made some out of the ordinary mistakes that gave him an opening. Guess father time is calling old Jerry.

Dave R
March 21, 2011, 03:48 PM
What makes you a good shot at the range?
My stupid answer: consistent sight picture and consistent trigger pull.

Double Naught Spy
March 21, 2011, 04:32 PM
But I would imagine a lot of handgun shooters spend most of their time at the range poking holes in stationary paper targets.

Shooters at a typical local range often seem to shoot like this, but they don't usually present much of a bar to surpass, either.

Funny thing, most ranges will not allow you to shoot moving targets, certainly not in a regular training format. Sure, they might let you shoot them during matches. Say you shoot a 200 (hits needed for a perfect score) target match (though many are with far fewer). What % of your shots will be at moving targets? Think about it. How much of the time do you get to spend shooting those moving targets other than the match. I have been to matches like the rest of you where folks note that the only time they ever get to practice with moving targets is during the match and then it is for a very limited number of shots.

Most ranges don't like you shooting on the move either. http://contour.com/stories/save3

I built my own range for this reason. This is one of my favorite targets. The first (old video) is a 6" target at 12-15 yards. The second vid is a 9" version, 25 yards with frangible ammo, on a longer chain, swinging faster and further. These are great targets that frustrate me (when out of practice) and newer shooters who don't fully comprehend how much tracking and trigger control come into play with moving targets...and that is with the shooter being stationary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9NylptF1G0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6pKmbOXu60&feature=related

This was the view of a 6" version when I was doing setup for the ISHOT1000 match. At 23-24 yards, most shooters hit the ground much more often than the target. That vid had 11 hits out of something like 33 or 34 shots and that was a pretty good set for me.
http://contour.com/stories/second-range-test

Navy joe
March 21, 2011, 04:59 PM
Compete. Best thing that ever happened to me was to not be born with the need to tell everyone how great I am. If you watch long enough, you may conclude I'm not bad.

Another good thing to happen to me was to get into competition where it was not unusual to have about 5 GM at the match, several of them past world champions. Throw in a large chunk of really good Master class shooter and you learn what good looks like real fast. And you learn... The USPSA classifying system said I was a 65-70% shooter. I have shot big matches on the same day as world champions, same division and my score was 70% of theirs, so I think the classifying system is valid.

The better you get, the less you will care what someone else is doing at the range until you see real talent. My only range claim to fame was that I was about their only exception to their no rapid fire policy. They'd get on the mike and start to yell until they figured out it was me. I usually did rapid fire stuff when the range emptied, holster work when the boss wasn't there. When the place filled up with Gangbangers, I just shot slow, boring tight 25yd groups with my Glock, that was more black magic to them than any speed shooting would be.

Japle
March 21, 2011, 06:48 PM
Here's Jerry at last year's Nationals shooting the Pendulum stage in 2.51 sec.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/JerryM.jpg

NYC Drew
March 22, 2011, 07:02 AM
I don't mean to hijack the thread but most of the responses to the OP's question state accuracy and time requirements independent of stating with X gun and Y ammunition.

On average it seems most production pistols are only capable of 3" or maybe 2" groups with the guns favorite ammo (not getting into hand-loaded ammo). So you literally can't do any better than: 3" at 25 yards, 1.8" @ 15 yards, 1.2" @ 10 yards, and .6" @ 5 yards.


Glock 17, factory configuration, shooting Ultramax factory reloads, 5rds at 50ft, unsupported:
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t275/ml2010/RTF17-2.jpg



Glock 26, shooting Remington/UMC, 5rds @ 45ft, unsupported.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t275/ml2010/62510.jpg



'Drew