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Ishyid
March 8, 2011, 10:52 AM
I live in a area where there are a lot of dogs. A lot of smaller areas or town where its low income and super low income with a lot of people with highly aggresive breeds of dogs (pit bulls). And they were raised and coxed to be aggressive. I have a golden retreiver. She is the biggest whimp ever. She has and would never show a tooth to any person or dog. In the past I have been out takeing her on a walk when other aggressive breed dogs have come up and tryed to start things by growling and snapping in our direction. Here are the scenarios. What would happen if this happened and what would the police do and what would become of you.

Scenario 1: You are out on a nice evening walk with your non aggresive pooch. As you round a corner you see a pitbull. Its sniffing around and it hasnt seen you yet. Ounce it sees you it trots at a fast speed to you within 25 feet stops looks at you and your dog that you are walking. Then slowly closes in teeth baring in a fearful threatening way. You are worried most of all feared for your own pooch. You are conceal carrying What would you do?
If not draw and shoot at that time at what point would you, if there is one.

Scenario 2: You are in a local dog park walking your dog, with the leash on, and a pit bull approaches sniffs your dog and then snapps at her neck. The owner is present and doesnt seem to care that their dog is trying to fight mine. What would you do?

-With the above scenario what would you do if the owner was present and was trying to control their dog but it wasnt responding to her commands?


I write both these scenarios comeing from real life encounters i have had. But at that time i didnt own a hand gun.

Any advice and feed back will be greatly appreceiated.

Thanks
-Joshua

billnourse
March 8, 2011, 11:07 AM
I might get smacked around for this, but having seen the damage viscious dogs can do, I would consider one no different than a human threat. If you have reason to fear for your person you would be within your rights to take what ever action necessary to protect you and yours.

If you take action, you are going to be required to prove that you were actually in fear of great bodily harm for either you or your dog.

Most places that have any population at all have some kind of leash laws, so If the animal in question is loose, there is already a violation before any attack or threatened attack occurs.

In the state where I live, a dog chasing livestock is fair game and I have shot numerous dogs that were harrassing stock.

Bill

Amin Parker
March 8, 2011, 11:42 AM
I would say either take your dog elsewhere to avoid trouble or take a drive through the route you wish to walk your dog. Make a note of aggressive dogs and their addresses if they are not confined as they should be and inform the authorities.

South African law allows a gun owner to shoot an aggressive dog if its owner is not present, or if the owner does not restrain the animal. No one wants it to get to that point but if you have to, you have to. You cant simply stand there while you and your pet are torn apart.

My experience is that should you ever have to kill an aggressive dog, you gonna have to deal with an aggressive owner and his aggressive neighbours. Its best to just avoid the whole thing altogether.

kraigwy
March 8, 2011, 11:43 AM
This is a question you should run by your local prosecutor or DA.

The reason I say this is each area is different. I know here in Wyoming the answer is simple, if you or your pets are threatened, Shoot 'em.

That's not the case in Portland where my kids live. Those people are different when it comes to injuring dogs no matter the reason.

In this case I doubt I'd take advise from the Internet. we wont be there to bail you out if things go south.

Talk to your prosecutor or DA and get their rulings, they would be the ones who drag you through court.

NESHOOTER
March 8, 2011, 11:55 AM
Hum, get some pepperspray or taser, no need for you to become the Newest CCW person to undergo the court system.... save $$$$$ and a possible threat from another person (you don't know if he/she is carrying and want to even the score on you and your dog) sad safe places are becoming less and less.

gearhounds
March 8, 2011, 12:04 PM
I agree, arm yourself with knowledge, and document everything to protect yourself. I'm lucky enough to have a nice, quiet, problem free neighborhood with a very low population density, so I know what I would do if my 4 legged family member was in danger, and by proxy, myself. In a high population density area, obviously, rounds fired+ Murphy's law= trouble no matter how you slice it. If the local DA/LE gives you the go ahead to act (document!) it doesn't mean things can't go wrong. I really hate to see good people run out by toads, but if it's weighing heavily on you, change your tactics and avoid the problem areas in question. If you have to shoot (ie- I am in fear of bodily harm or death), shoot well and with common sense.

The dog park scenario is tricky; dogs are highly social animals, and a newcomer is subject to a feeling out for it's place in the pecking order, and a "snap", could be only for show. Unfortunately, in that environment, it can be difficult to tell that from true attack behavior. Again, if it makes you uncomfortable, and this is an unmonitored park as most seem to be, leaving may be the best option.

45Gunner
March 8, 2011, 05:43 PM
The best solution to problems that you present is to avoid being in that situation in the first place. I don't think it makes much of a difference in which state you reside in, if you are in a populated area, regardless of its socio-economic status, you are going to have a lot of questions thrown at you as soon as you draw and shoot your gun. Most of those questions would probably best be answered with the advice of an attorney. My attorney charges $300 per hour which is really not that expensive when it comes to specialty attorneys.

Avoid the situation and save your money. However, if your life or the life of another being is in immanent danger, you have a right to protect your life with deadly force. The same questions will be asked and you will probably need the same attorney.

Glenn Dee
March 8, 2011, 05:56 PM
In my opinion...
If you use deadly physical force to protect your dog you will probably be arrested, and possibly spend some time in jail or prison. Unless of course your state provides for the use of DPF (deadly physical force) to protect personal property.

Despite being our best friends, and providing unconditional love... Pets are property. Sadly your dog has no rights. Your dog as cute as it may be, Is not worth the risk of a person being injured by your using DPF.

Anyway... thats just my opinion...

Glenn

Daryl
March 8, 2011, 09:18 PM
Better check your state laws. You might be cited in either case if you shoot, or could be arrested; or, you might very well be legal. Depends on your state's laws.

In my state, I'd shoot if and when I felt threatened. I don't know the intentions of an agressive dog, so I might very well assume it's being agressive towards me.

I drew my carry gun twice on the same pit bull early last year. The first time the dog was acting agressive towards me, and I was holding my handgun with the dog literally 12-14 inches from my front sight. I didn't fire, and the dog finally turned and went out my gate.

The second time was when it got after my wife's miniature aussie. I managed to get my truck's door open, and the aussie jumped in. I didn't have time, so turned and drew. This time the dog stayed back about 20 feet, but circled me...assumably trying to find a better angle to attack. I finally ran at it yelling, with pistol in hand, and it took off out the gate.

In either case I'd have been justified in killing it, but chose not to. I called animal control, and the owner was cited for the 2nd offense for dog roaming on private property. I told the officers I'd not press charges for the more serious offense involved with an agressive dog on one condition: They were to tell the owner that if the dog came back on my property again, I'd shoot it on sight. No questions, and no answers; I'd simply shoot it and bury it.

The guy must have understood, because he chained the dog inside of his fenced yard, and moved away about a month later.

I love dogs, but I'll only put of with a problem dog for so long.

Daryl

John Eastwood
March 8, 2011, 10:07 PM
Sticky situation. I was ALMOST attacked by two dogs about 6 months ago while running. They backed me up all the way into the middle of a double-yellow country road and I had nothing on but my running shoes and shorts; no shirt. Teeth showing/circling me/the whole deal. I had nowhere to go. You bet your ass if the G-19 was on my body they were recieving some of Hornady's Critical Defense...but I didn't have it on me.

A passerby slowed down just enough for me to jump into the back of his truck and he took me to my house. I had ran for 3 miles with no issues; then 300 yards from my house, these dogs I'd never seen before came outta nowhere and had me by the balls.

In retrospect, I now run with pepperspray. That situation was a little too close for comfort. I personally don't want to deal with shooting anyone's dogs with a gun, whether it be in self-defense or not and I will tell ya why.

I say this because it wasn't a month later that a similar situation happened with my neighbor concerning the same 2 dogs. He shot one of them 3 times with a .22 because they were attacking his dog in his yard.

The damn dog lived and they showed it on the evening news. He of course is now labeled the butthole of the community, even though he was not charged. He was well within his rights. Anything dog-related seems to be worse than shooting a human-being these days; especially when the situation occurs right in your backyard. Dog may be dead, but you have to deal with your neighbors whose dog you shot from there on out.

In summary: I don't need that drama. Pepperspray for me as far as dog threats go.

Dwight55
March 8, 2011, 11:33 PM
A lady I knew years ago had a stable of the most beautiful Norwegian Elkhounds one could imagine.

She also carried on her person a plastic bottle of ammonia water (I'm thinking about 50/50) and a rag. First hint of a problem, . . . out comes the rag and bottle, . . . squirt it on the rag, . . . throw it on the agressor, . . . end of problem.

NO, . . . I never used it, . . . but she swore by it. If I were walking my dog in an area she could be attacked, . . . I would have this and my 1911. If the ammonia didn't work, . . . I'm not standing by and watching my dog get turned into a chew toy for some mongrel that has no manners. I'll deal with the owner and the law later.

May God bless,
Dwight

huntinaz
March 8, 2011, 11:44 PM
Despite being our best friends, and providing unconditional love... Pets are property. Sadly your dog has no rights. Your dog as cute as it may be, Is not worth the risk of a person being injured by your using DPF.

Anyway... thats just my opinion...

Mine too. The risk of shooting a dog is just not worth hurting somebody in the neighborhood. If you feel you are at significant risk of being attacked by aggressive dogs either walk somewhere else or get some pepper spray.

Scenario 2: You are in a local dog park walking your dog, with the leash on, and a pit bull approaches sniffs your dog and then snapps at her neck. The owner is present and doesnt seem to care that their dog is trying to fight mine. What would you do?
I'd probably kick it in the face, since I don't have pepper spray. If this was a common occurrence in my neighborhood then I would get pepper spray and that dog would get a face full of it, and a boot to the face. What I would NOT do is pull a pistol on a dog, in a public dog park, that isn't attacking a human.

Yung.gunr
March 8, 2011, 11:47 PM
I agree to check with LE in the area. But.... call in and ask and don't leave your name.
I disagree to avoid the area because from what you are saying it is all around you so you will have to confront it.
I would say to have a walking buddy with you man the pepper spray/taser and you have your hand on/near your gun. Get it ready to go in case the pepper spray/taser does not deter.

Who cares what people think of you because if a vicious dog is going to tear up your dog then you will be next.

I think if you end up spraying or tasing a dog then their owner will take better care to control their animal next time.

IMHO don't be the pacifist in this situation as it could cost you and/or your dog
your lives.

PS. As a previous pit owner/lover thank you for pointing out that their owners encouraged that behavior. My pit was a pussycat, he was a 95 pound monster who only wanted to sit on your lap and you pet him. But, I do know that they can tear some s*** up so be careful around them and don't underestimate their abilities/strength.

Bud Helms
March 9, 2011, 04:39 AM
T&T.

Moving ...

sdw1961
March 9, 2011, 06:24 AM
WOW! As a dog lover I'd have to say protect yourself and your dog, but I don't know the laws where you are. Where I am nothing would come of it except maybe a civil suit. We did have a shelter shut down today because of shooting dogs instead of euthanizing them though.
As I said I'm a big time dog lover, but in a situation like this I'd choose to protect myself and my baby....but then again I have no right to talk because I'm scared of guns. I think the irresponsible dog owners as well as the severly aggressive dogs should be taken care of for allowing/making there dogs behave in such a manner.

Powderman
March 9, 2011, 06:40 AM
The Revised Code of Washington provides:

"It shall be lawful for any person who shall see any dog or dogs chasing, biting, injuring or killing any sheep, swine or other domestic animal, including poultry, belonging to such person, on any real property owned or leased by, or under the control of, such person, or on any public highway, to kill such dog or dogs, and it shall be the duty of the owner or keeper of any dog or dogs so found chasing, biting or injuring any domestic animal, including poultry, upon being notified of that fact by the owner of such domestic animals or poultry, to thereafter keep such dog or dogs in leash or confined upon the premises of the owner or keeper thereof, and in case any such owner or keeper of a dog or dogs shall fail or neglect to comply with the provisions of this section, it shall be lawful for the owner of such domestic animals or poultry to kill such dog or dogs found running at large."

---Revised Code of Washington (RCW) 16.08.020

This being noted, it would be wise to give a call to (in your case) the prosecutor's office for the City of Bonney Lake, as well as the prosecutor for Pierce County to receive their definitive answers. These are the persons you will have to explain your actions to.

PIGMAN
March 9, 2011, 07:09 AM
Carry a cannister of bear repellant.This will keep you out of serious legal problems.

BfloBill
March 9, 2011, 09:13 AM
In the first scenario (loose dog) I would say you would be justified in shooting, in the scenariowhere the owner is trying to stop the dog I would say no, in the scenario where the owner is doing nothing to stop your dog in my mind that is the same as encouraging it to attack, so we are back to yes.

But I am not a Lawyer or Prosecutor in your state.

Also, AminParker was the first to bring up a point you should not ignore, if someone is deliberately breeding over-aggressive dogs they are probably fighting them and their owners are most likely agressive themselves. You don't want to put yourself in a position where you have to worry about retribution.

I think spray would probably be the best option for your situation, with firearm as a last resort.

8shot357
March 9, 2011, 04:09 PM
I just ask, why to people want a Pit-Bull?

markj
March 9, 2011, 04:53 PM
I just ask, why to people want a Pit-Bull?

They once were Americas dog, bad breeding practises and egos have ruined this breed. There are still a few raise the real deal but few are able to purchase them.

In the scenarios posted, if you know this may happen then run on down to your local Tractor Supply and get a 5 foot cattle prod. I bit a dog once with one and he run off, havent seen him since he is probably still running.

Or avoid the areas. Every dog park I know of hass rules against vicious dogs and anyone has one should have it on a muzzle or be in violation of the law.

Find a nice public area outside of the city you live in and walk the dog there. Your local DNR should have maps of public areas away from the city.

sdw1961
March 9, 2011, 06:20 PM
8shot357 I don't think I have the capability to quote on here, but to try and answer your question "Why a Pit-Bull?" markj is right the Pit-Bull is an American Breed. If raised properly they are an excellent pet that strongly desires to please it's master. It is irresponsible owners that give the dogs a bad reputation. It is not a Breed for everyone. It is very loyal and has the uncanny ability to know when to protect it's Master and the Master's property. If raised properly with little training and a lot of exercise it is very intelligent and friendly. It's the people that make these dogs bad. They really can be a great Pet I promise you. And markj...a cattle prod is an excellent idea!

glassguy
March 9, 2011, 06:31 PM
When I was a kid we used to have some nasty dogs in our neighborhood. A squirt gun filled with ammonia will change a dog's attitude NOW! They also remembered me next time we met and gave way.

Shootin Chef
March 9, 2011, 11:45 PM
I never understand some of the responses to these questions.

Walk somewhere else?
Why? You have just as much right to walk down the sidewalk or through a park un-harassed as the next person.
At what point do you stop going "somewhere else" and letting people get away with breaking the law and making the world an unsavory place to live in and start holding them responsible for their actions?
Fear of retribution is understandable, but again, where is the line? I would like to think that any owner who's dog I have to put down because it's attempting to do serious harm to me is going to understand that I'm prepared to defend myself in the face of extreme danger, including him/her.

"Get a Taser"
A real Taser costs 2-3 times what a handgun does, and the budget models costs about the same as a quality handgun.
Most people mean a stun gun when they say Taser and they are two different things entirely. A stun gun requires you to get within arms reach of your target, and using that on a vicious dog does not appeal to me personally, I don't know about anyone else.

Bear Spray
a viable option, but what's the point if I'm already carrying concealed? I could use bear spray in the same situations I could use my concealed weapon. How many weapons do you want to carry?

I'm not saying you should go blowing away every grandmother's yappy pomeranian but why do we bother jumping through the hoops to get permits to have our constitutional rights to defend ourselves if we don't exercise that right?

I love my dog, I love most dogs, and it's not the dog's fault but unfortunately the dog has to take the consequences of it's actions, even if those actions are dictated by how poor the owner raised it.
Same could be said of some criminals and their parents I suppose.

Just my thoughts on the matter
Chef

JerryM
March 9, 2011, 11:58 PM
I would carry OC Spray as well as a gun.
I keep reading of recommendations to carry Bear Spray. However, those cannisters are larger than OC spray, and although I have not seen a bear spray cannister I think they are too large for most carry.

Anyone recommending bear spray, how do you carry it? Do you have a belt holster? I would not want to carry anything in my hand.

One friend had to spray a dog, and it only took one squirt.

Regards,
Jerry

8shot357
March 10, 2011, 04:47 AM
In the scenarios posted, if you know this may happen then run on down to your local Tractor Supply and get a 5 foot cattle prod. I bit a dog once with one and he run off, havent seen him since he is probably still running.

LOL

What's a tractor?:D I live in Vegas.

Next time I'm back in MN, I'll have to go to Fleet Farm.:D

I love Fleet Farm "The Man's Mall" WWW.fleetfarm.com

huntinaz
March 10, 2011, 08:51 AM
Bear Spray
a viable option, but what's the point if I'm already carrying concealed? I could use bear spray in the same situations I could use my concealed weapon.
Exactly, and it's a lot safer than spraying bullets around your neighborhood at a threat that in all likelihood you could have gotten the better of with your feet. Imagine "scenario 1" happens to you and you draw down on a dog that may or may not attack your dog, and you miss that dog and skip a bullet into a neighbor's kid. Or "scenario 2" you are around a bunch of other people, and you draw down and shoot that dog that "snapped" at your dog. You better not miss and skip a bullet into a bystander. More than that, there's no reason to even shoot it. Seriously guys we're talking about dogs, maybe I'm just young and spry still but I'm pretty convinced I could get the bulge on the average dog at the dog park with my boot. For me to shoot a dog in a public place it would have to be attacking a human. I'm not firing a pistol in my neighborhood with humans in it over a dogfight.

Walk somewhere else?
Why? You have just as much right to walk down the sidewalk or through a park un-harassed as the next person.
At what point do you stop going "somewhere else" and letting people get away with breaking the law and making the world an unsavory place to live in and start holding them responsible for their actions?

Agreed, you have the right to do as you wish. This is America. But if you are encountering aggressive dogs every time you go out it kinda makes sense to find a new area. Or carry some pepper spray and have some fun. But shooting a bunch of dogs in a populated areas seems like a pretty dangerous thing to do.

We have one pitbull in the neighborhood that is constantly loose and wanders around. Actually he's gone now, proly either got run over or found his way to the pound, his owners refused to keep him on a leash and he had no tag to call. Anyway I used to see him while out walking my dogs. He was the friendliest dog I've ever encountered on a walk, always just wanted to play. But the first time or two I saw him coming it was intimidating, he was a big, solid dog. But I darn sure didn't pull out my pistol guys!

Powderman
March 10, 2011, 10:02 AM
I'm not firing a pistol in my neighborhood with humans in it over a dogfight.

Friend, when you see what an attacking dog of even average size can do to both dogs AND humans, I'd bet that you would have no problem shooting the attacking animal.

Shootin Chef
March 10, 2011, 02:06 PM
it's a lot safer than spraying bullets around your neighborhood at a threat
What in the world do you conceal carry? A Glock 18?
I would like to think that anyone who conceal carries for personal defense reasons has the ability to put two rounds into a large dog at 25 feet and closing.

Read it again, the dog is closingin a fearful threatening way.. You are now feared for your life and safety, which is grounds for defending yourself in most states. Lets not forget you're shooting from higher than the dog is tall so you're shooting with the ground as a backstop.
Ricochet should really be the least of your worries, with more focus on hitting the target. Hollow points being the preferred ccw round should relieve your fear even further.

maybe I'm just young and spry still but I'm pretty convinced I could get the bulge on the average dog at the dog park with my boot.
The K9 unit of your local police department would like to have a word with you.
In all seriousness, what if you miss with your kick? What if the dog is faster than you and grabs hold of your ankle and pulls you down? I have a corgi and he snatches flies out of the air he's so fast, I can't begin to imagine what a pitbull, could pull off.

But the first time or two I saw him coming it was intimidating, he was a big, solid dog. But I darn sure didn't pull out my pistol guys!
Did you read the scenario?
In the first the dog isn't being intimidating, it's being threatening. In the second it flat out attacks.
That's not Marmaduke running up all big and playful.

sdw1961
March 10, 2011, 02:28 PM
Quote:
In the scenarios posted, if you know this may happen then run on down to your local Tractor Supply and get a 5 foot cattle prod. I bit a dog once with one and he run off, havent seen him since he is probably still running.
LOL

What's a tractor? I live in Vegas.

Next time I'm back in MN, I'll have to go to Fleet Farm.


ROTFLOL...too funny.

rburch
March 10, 2011, 04:04 PM
Bear Spray
a viable option, but what's the point if I'm already carrying concealed? I could use bear spray in the same situations I could use my concealed weapon. How many weapons do you want to carry?

I'm not saying you should go blowing away every grandmother's yappy pomeranian but why do we bother jumping through the hoops to get permits to have our constitutional rights to defend ourselves if we don't exercise that right?

I love my dog, I love most dogs, and it's not the dog's fault but unfortunately the dog has to take the consequences of it's actions, even if those actions are dictated by how poor the owner raised it.
Same could be said of some criminals and their parents I suppose.

Just my thoughts on the matter
Chef

I would like to think that anyone who conceal carries for personal defense reasons has the ability to put two rounds into a large dog at 25 feet and closing.

Read it again, the dog is closingin a fearful threatening way.. You are now feared for your life and safety, which is grounds for defending yourself in most states. Lets not forget you're shooting from higher than the dog is tall so you're shooting with the ground as a backstop.
Ricochet should really be the least of your worries, with more focus on hitting the target. Hollow points being the preferred ccw round should relieve your fear even further.

To play devils advocate, depending on the situation, the spray can be more effective at stopping an attack than bullets.

I've seen cases of large dogs approaching as close as 5-10 feet without showing overt signs of aggression. That's far to close to expect to be able to draw and shoot before the dog was on you, but you would not be justified to draw a pistol just because the dog was approaching.

You would however be well within the law to pull out your pepper spray and be holding it at the ready. In addition, in most states, pepperspray is not considered deadly force and is therefore legally easier to justify when you use it.

maybe I'm just young and spry still but I'm pretty convinced I could get the bulge on the average dog at the dog park with my boot.

I'm sure you probably could take on a average dog, but what about a larger than average?

My grandfather bred Rottweilers for years, and his Brother in law had one of his dogs back in the 90's. One day it ripped/chewed through a chainlink fence, and busted through a wood privacy fence to get out into town.

Not a big deal, small town everybody knew the dog and it not aggressive at all, except it got hit by a guy doing 45 in a nissan maxima. Totalled the car, the dog got some bruises.

A police department bought another of my grandfathers dogs to train for their K9 program. While they were there looking at the dogs, one of them told us a story about why he prefers Rottweilers for police duty.

Apparently one of their officers was involved in a struggle with a suspect and in the process the suspect managed to get the officers weapon, and was about to shoot the officer. The Rottweiler was still locked in the back of the squad car, but broke through the glass to jump out the car's window and attacked the suspect, clamping down on the arm holding the gun, and actually severing that arm just below the elbow.

markj
March 10, 2011, 04:10 PM
A squirt gun filled with ammonia

Now that is one good idea. I have used diesel fuel in a squirt bottle while working in a salvage yard for the wasps. Killed em in flight.

Walk somewhere else?
Why? You have just as much right to walk down the sidewalk or through a park un-harassed as the next person.

Maybe so, but to knowingly go into an area that you or yours may be harmed in is well, not so smart IMHO. It would take a lot to get me to run into a burning building when I could just go around it and stay safe. But hey, who am I to give advise? Walk where you wish and good luck to you sir.

I'll have to go to Fleet Farm

Same as a Tractor Supply :) them prods pack a punch, used one when I worked at the pig palace in south Omaha, would stop a 500 lb boar right now. Never stick a horse tho, they tend to jump into the shock, is why shockers and race horses did so well :) and yep I do know about that we raced all over this country.

I once used a baseball on a dog, he went after me while delivering papers, hit him hard, regret it now but at teh time I thought it a good idea. Picking up a dead dog wasnt so much fun, the owner was watching and it went bad from there as I was 13.

huntinaz
March 10, 2011, 07:15 PM
Then slowly closes in teeth baring in a fearful threatening way. You are worried most of all feared for your own pooch..You are now feared for your life and safety, which is grounds for defending yourself in most states.

There Chef, I read it again. The aggressive dog is maybe going to attack your dog. It's being aggressive towards your DOG. I'm not "feared" at all for my safety, though I can see a dogfight coming. I'm saying I don't think that's any reason to pull a pistol in the middle of town. Out in the country maybe. The point is that it's unsafe to discharge a pistol in a neighborhood. That's a fact. I think you're being a little casual about firearm safety. It isn't like the movies where if you miss that's the end of it. When you miss the bullet goes somewhere and is still dangerous. Even if it zips thru a dog it can still hurt somwbody. You need to consider some things:

I would like to think that anyone who conceal carries for personal defense reasons has the ability to put two rounds into a large dog at 25 feet and closing.
People get excited and people miss. IF you have a good backstop and no people around, no big deal. In a neighborhood, kinda a hazard.

Lets not forget you're shooting from higher than the dog is tall so you're shooting with the ground as a backstop.
Um, exactly. The bullet doesn't stop when it hits the pavement at an angle, it ricochets. Go out and shoot the ground 25 feet away somewhere you can see the dirt. You'll notice that it will ricochet most of the time. I've done a whole heap of shooting at stuff on the ground in front of a backstop, and that's what happens.

Ricochet should really be the least of your worries, with more focus on hitting the target. Hollow points being the preferred ccw round should relieve your fear even further.

In a neighborhood you damn well better be worried about a ricochet, especially when shooting at the ground. The bullet will ricochet if you miss the dog. Hollow points ricochet like anything else, so no it doesn't relieve any fear at all. What if you skip a bullet into a person? Guess who's going to jail for it?

Guys I could care less about killing dogs, I'm all for it. If they are attacking you or another human, then yes protect yourself however you can. But shooting to protect your dog I think is extreme because of the risk of a ricochet in a city. It is dangerous to discharge a firearm in city limits, which is why it's illegal. I'm also saying that under normal circumstances, including the two scenarios posted, pulling a pistol would be completely irrational and unsafe. Neither animal in the scenarios are about to cause harm to a person. Key word. Your dog is not a person. If you run a serious risk of having your dog getting into a dogfight where you walk, get something that will be safe to use around the folks in your neighborhood (like pepper spray). I have two little girls, I can't imagine if one of them were to catch a bullet while playing in the front yard over a flippin dog.


The K9 unit of your local police department would like to have a word with you.
In all seriousness, what if you miss with your kick? What if the dog is faster than you and grabs hold of your ankle and pulls you down?

Ok, I'm not talking about fighting trained police dogs. I'm talking about your average, run of the mill neighborhood dog. If I miss my kick, I'll kick again. I have 2 fists as well. It isn't going to drag my ankle down, it's going to mind my kick. In general, I think I can take the average dog. If a huge Rotty or pit approaches me or my child with intent to attack then yes, I'll shoot it. But that's not the typical situation and not what the scenarios in the original thread are about. There is not a single thing in either of the two scenarios that justifies pulling a pistol.

Shootin Chef
March 11, 2011, 12:19 AM
Rburch
I was just commenting on the scenarios given, 5-10 feet closed with a unfamiliar, aggressive breed will have my hand on my weapon with my body ready to twist and draw... but I'm the paranoid type. I'm not saying OC/Bear spray is not a useful item, I'm just taken aback by all the people who just allow others to break the law and not defend themselves with the tools they have.

:rolleyes: Ok, fine, I'll play along sir. Lets just use Washington state since that's where the OP is from.
RCW 9A.16.110 (1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.

Which would you prefer my good sir? The dog to be property or part of the family? Either way, by law, you're allowed to defend it from, among other things, assault/murder, since most dogs don't stop attacking when you go down, it could very well be murdered. Doesn't matter if your dog is a person or not, it's still well within your rights to defend it with your weapon in Washington, as this case resides there.

When is it ever 100% safe to discharge a firearm? How many range accidents happen every year? How many times does some unfortunate person get shot because, despite all precaution taken, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time?

As for ricochets, you go ahead and be worried all you want to. It's your choice to do as you see fit, but I can tell you that the law of averages and the laws of physics are against your chances of hitting someone with a ricochet fired at a dog, in a park.

Ok, I'm not talking about fighting trained police dogs.
No, you're talking about going to fisticuffs with dogs that are unpredictable and aggressive, if not downright trained to fight to the death. At least a K9 dog is trained not to kill you unless it really has no other option.
It isn't going to drag my ankle down, it's going to mind my kick.
Or, it's just going to get even angrier at you and attack with even more ferocity.

If a huge Rotty or pit approaches me or my child with intent to attack then yes, I'll shoot it. But that's not the typical situation and not what the scenarios in the original thread are about.
It's not?
Are you sure you went back and read it again my good fellow?
As you round a corner you see a pitbull.
Then slowly closes in teeth baring in a fearful threatening way.
*bold my emphasis*
Seems to me like you just nullified your own argument sir?

TXAZ
March 11, 2011, 12:28 AM
Is there an equivalent to a SAGE round in a smaller / pistol caliber? Dogs don't seem to want to stick around after getting hit by one of these.

Ishyid
March 11, 2011, 05:03 AM
Thanks all who have replied. I've read some really interesting replys. But something that keeps comeong up is drawing and shooting in your neighborhood not being safe because of to many hazards and the risk of injureing someone else. All this talk has raised a question that I would like to ask.

Take away the aggressive dog and replace it with a human
Someone with intentions to harm you. Are you not going to draw and fire when this guy is chargeing weilding a knife or firearm in fear of hitting a inocent bystander or launching a non well placed bullet in through a window because you are in a well populated area?

huntinaz
March 11, 2011, 11:29 AM
Take away the aggressive dog and replace it with a human
Someone with intentions to harm you. Are you not going to draw and fire when this guy is chargeing weilding a knife or firearm in fear of hitting a inocent bystander or launching a non well placed bullet in through a window because you are in a well populated area?

Absolutely. It's a totally different situation. That's a threat towards you, not your dog. Totally different. I'm not sure how I could be more clear. The scenarios posted are about aggression towards your dog. Why would you fear for your safety in either scenario? The aggression in both cases is towards an animal. Until a human is being attacked by a dog, there is no need to shoot because of the risk. BUT, as soon as a human's well being is involved then the benefit outweighs the risk. Unless you have a solid backstop, and the street is a far cry from it, you have no business discharging a firearm in a populated place over a dogfight. Dog-human fight yes, two dogs no.

It's not?
Are you sure you went back and read it again my good fellow?
Quote:
As you round a corner you see a pitbull.
Quote:
Then slowly closes in teeth baring in a fearful threatening way.
*bold my emphasis*
Seems to me like you just nullified your own argument sir?

No, you go back and read it. The important part is the sentence just after the ones you quoted: "You are worried most of all feared for your own pooch." Your pooch. My entire argument is that the risk of injury to your dog is not worth the risk to human health by firing into a crowded area. Especially at the dog park in the second scenario!!! There's people all around!

That's all. I'm not saying the aggressive dog is in the right and I'm not saying you can't/shouldn't protect yourself. I'm saying there are better ways to do it than shooting in a public place over a threat that is not likely to hurt a person. Also I'm saying that I would not even consider drawing on either dog in either scenario, and drawing on dog #2 may very well get you arrested for brandishing, which I would agree with. If I was at a dog park and my dog snapped at another dog and the guy pulled a gun, you can bet I'm pressing charges. You'd have to be a lose cannon to even consider pulling your pistol in that instance.

Hey Ishyid, so what was the outcome for both scenarios? You say these both happened to you...I'm gonna guess that each was resolved without incident and that you didn't pull your pistol on either dog.

Shootin Chef
March 11, 2011, 12:02 PM
Absolutely. It's a totally different situation. That's a threat towards you, not your dog.
The aggression in both cases is towards an animal
Really? How do you know? It never says that. It says you are afraid for your dog, doesn't say the aggressive dog is targeting just your dog in scenario #1. Could you not be afraid for your dog when you're the one in danger? What if you're both in danger? Who says the other dog will stop at just your dog? Will you wait until your dog is dead or dying before you draw and shoot?
Let us not forget that the law is on your side in both situations, in Washington state.

My entire argument is that the risk of injury to your dog is not worth the risk to human health by firing into a crowded area.
If a huge Rotty or pit approaches me or my child with intent to attack then yes, I'll shoot it.
So risk of injuring a crowd for your child is? So you're suggesting that your daughter's life is more important than someone's dog? A dog they may consider to be like their own child for whatever reason?
Just because a dog isn't a person, doesn't mean it's any less special to the owner than your child is to you.

Think about it from the owners perspective,
Chef

*edit* I'm gonna guess that each was resolved without incident and that you didn't pull your pistol on either dog.
He already stated he didn't own a gun at that time.

huntinaz
March 11, 2011, 12:15 PM
So you're suggesting that your daughter's life is more important than someone's dog?
That, sir, is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Anybody's life is more important that any dog's life. People are more important than animals.


Just because a dog isn't a person, doesn't mean it's any less special to the owner than your child is to you.
Well therein lies the error. A dog is NOT as special as a child. You must not have kids. Surely you have a mother/father,brother/sister/wife/best friend etc. If you had to chose a life to lose, which would it be? Your answer better be "the dog's life."

He already stated he didn't own a gun at that time.
And he also stated he still has his dog and presumably his health. He didn't need a gun to keep them.

Onward Allusion
March 11, 2011, 12:49 PM
Ishyid
<SNIP>
Take away the aggressive dog and replace it with a human
Someone with intentions to harm you. Are you not going to draw and fire when this guy is chargeing weilding a knife or firearm in fear of hitting a inocent bystander or launching a non well placed bullet in through a window because you are in a well populated area?

Four legged animals are very different from the two-legged variety in that they do not operate with malicious intent. Four legged ones may want to eat you or attack you because they see you as a threat. Once met with strong resistance or pain, they will very likely go elsewhere for their meal or realize that they've run across an alpha animal. Hence bear spray or pepper spray will suffice. Think about all the threads concerning "What should I carry for bear in the woods?"... The best answer is always bear spray first and a 357/44 Mag second.

Two legged animals have a bunch of emotional garbage attached. They may be out to get you not just for the "food" (money) but may also want to hurt you for the sake of stomping, raping, killing someone for power's sake. That is why two legged creatures are so much more dangerous and deserved to be stopped on the spot with deadly force when they pose a threat to you or a loved one.

thunderkyss
March 11, 2011, 12:52 PM
Daryl (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4485336&postcount=9)I drew my carry gun twice on the same pit bull early last year. The first time the dog was acting agressive towards me, and I was holding my handgun with the dog literally 12-14 inches from my front sight. I didn't fire, and the dog finally turned and went out my gate.

To me, this is the key. Same thing in the OP...

Nothing happened. Dogs show off & puff their chest all the time, it's what they do. Just because a dog looked at you funny, does not give you the right to shoot it. If there are witnesses, make sure you or your dog is being attacked before you fire.

If it were me, I'd have pulled out the cell, & called the pound.

.

Shootin Chef
March 11, 2011, 01:48 PM
Anybody's life is more important that any dog's life. People are more important than animals.
And that's your opinion sir, and a rather arrogant one at that. Luckily, in this case, the law is on the side of the victim.
A dog is NOT as special as a child.
Again, your opinion. I would take my dog over your child any day.
My answer "better be" something eh? What if it's not? I can tell you there are few people I would pick over my dog, and my dog has saved my life.
So yeah, Mr Ultimatum, I have defied your demand and picked my dog.

Back to the task at hand, all chest thumping and bias opinion aside, the fact is you're justified, and lawful, to draw your pistol and defend yourself if you feel the dog is going to attack you OR your dog. That's what the law allows you to do, so that's what I'll do to protect my life, my family, my property, and that includes my dog. If you won't, then what's the point of even carrying?

huntinaz
March 11, 2011, 02:12 PM
I would take my dog over your child any day.
What an ignorant thing to say. Unbelievable. I sincerely hope you are just mad at the internet argument and that's not the way you really feel. Shame on you sir, and I use the term loosely.

markj
March 11, 2011, 03:32 PM
So you're suggesting that your daughter's life is more important than someone's dog?

I would gladly cheerfully kill any dog that tried to harm one hair of my daughters head and that goes for any person or any animal whatsoever.

Anyone that belives their dog is worth more than anyones child is wasting air and should probably not have any sharp objects or weapons of any kind. The judgement factor is skewed and they are living in some reality of their very own.

Now go tell your wife you belive your dog is worth more than your kids......

Capt Charlie
March 11, 2011, 04:11 PM
Ya know, I realize that this is an emotionally charged subject, but for some reason, every time this subject comes up here (and it does quite frequently), the thread nose-dives into the gutter.

I expected this in this one, and I wasn't disappointed.

Then again.... I guess I was. :(

Closed.