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Doublea A
March 2, 2011, 10:15 PM
What if you are sleeping in the middle of the night and you hear what seem like your door being kicked in. So you get up and you hear "It's the police, we have a warrant and let me see your hands” My question is what do you do? Do you comply or engage?

You darn know for sure that you haven't done anything for a warrant to be issued on you. You have no idea whether they are truly cops or not. So what do you do?

Thanks

While this rarely occurs, it does happen. Perhaps think about it first before you view the link.
http://www.startribune.com/local/26083024.html

jcsturgeon
March 2, 2011, 10:23 PM
So is it multiple people, are there blue and red lights flashing through the windows? Then yes, I would comply.

It's quite possible that the police have the wrong house or that there was some kind of mistake, just because you "know" that they don't have a warrant for you doesn't mean they aren't legit officers. Resisting could lead to prison time or death.

The story is different if it's one person, that would make it less likely that it's a cop, if they're serving a warrant it's going to be either a SWAT team or multiple officers and it should be pretty obvious when they come "knocking"

Davey
March 2, 2011, 10:31 PM
I've always thought about what if someone or a small group of people try to break in by pretending to be cops.

How would I know?

jcsturgeon
March 2, 2011, 10:49 PM
Not to play Devil's advocate against myself but that's exactly what Shawna Forde did. Her band of scumbags pretended to be cops and murdered an immigrant family. That kind of thing is almost unheard of though. They odds of a bunch of crooks drawing a lot of attention to themselves and breaking into your house are so infinitesimally small, and the chances of the group being legitimate law enforcement so great that complying is the only sane option.

Engaging those targets would almost certainly end in your death anyway, and the best case scenario would be years in prison for assaulting an officer with a deadly weapon.

won-a-glock
March 2, 2011, 10:57 PM
Home invasions by burglars / kidnappers / and bad guys have used the 'police warrant' ruse numerous times in southern and central Arizona recently. It appears to usually be drug or kidnapping cartel related, but doesn't matter, some have been pure home invasions with a badge. Having recently moved to a more rural area, the police in this area are generally ineffective, and can't be counted on for support, and according to a couple of neighbors, can't be trusted. (and their range scores are worthless)

I'm confident there is *no* legitimate, nor legal reason for the police or others to break into my home, and don't accept the questionable legality of no-knocks. Never been in any kind of trouble, no sir. Knock and respectfully wait for an answer is a different matter. Any intruder(s) that come to my little cottage will need to be able to either outrun 10 rounds from an M82A1 x 3 mags, and Remington 870 w/ extended mag, or have better armor than an Abrams (while avoiding 2 dobermans (and a yappy little pic-a-poo).

No offense intended toward any LEO's out there, but this ain't Kansas anymore, and as a group, with all due and individual respect, are no longer trustworthy.

Post Script: JC makes a good point: You're better to be judged by 12 after winning a serious fire fight than taking a chance on being shot, dismembered or terrorized. Individual responsibility for your own safety has to make a comeback.

mrgoodwrench76
March 2, 2011, 10:59 PM
My dogs would have attacked before they got past "Its the Po............
I'm willing to bet they can keep em busy long enough for me to figure out who they are.

If not for the dogs..........I would probably let the wife check it out first :D.

mrgoodwrench76
March 2, 2011, 11:08 PM
No offense intended toward any LEO's out there, but this ain't Kansas anymore, and as a group, with all due and individual respect, are no longer trustworthy.

:eek::eek:

Pretty sure their still going to be offended.

AK103K
March 2, 2011, 11:15 PM
My dogs would have attacked before they got past "Its the Po............
I'm willing to bet they can keep em busy long enough for me to figure out who they are.
Mine too.

Ill also be up, dressed, and have the coffee made before they even get to kicking on the door. Not much gets by the hounds, and once they're up, everyones up. :)

ZeSpectre
March 2, 2011, 11:22 PM
There is no way this scenario will play out "good and happy" no matter what the decision.

Shootin Chef
March 3, 2011, 02:07 AM
Well, my response is a bit different.

Lock the bedroom door, rack the shotgun, dial 911 on speaker with the cell, and announce I'm armed and I need a name and badge number which hopefully I will verify with 911.
Can't verify? Can't get 911? Green-smoke grenade through the windowless space above the door (I'm in an older house) and I go out ready to fire if I don't see uniforms/blue lights/identifications, after putting the puppy dog in the closet first. He's to friendly and would get in the line of fire.

m17s_guy
March 3, 2011, 03:40 AM
Well, as an LEO, NO im not offended by the above comment. persons impersonating police officers have caused a lot of trouble in the past, that is why my area of georgia has told drivers to NOT pull over for a police officer while driving alone at night in a dark area, but to hit your hazards, dial 911 and proceed to the closest, well lit, populated area. now for the most part, police are not going to kick in your door and tell you they have a warrant.

these "no knock" warrants are so rarley issued after the shooting of the women in atlanta a couple years past (who btw shot 3 legit officers when they kicked the door in) after recieving a tip from a druggie they busted that he had bouthgt his gun and drugs at her house. she was killed and come to find out, there were no drugs or weapons other than the pistol the 80+ yo woman carried for protection in a bad neighborhood. anyways i babble... the no knock warrants are researched VERY extensively in my state now because of this problem, that there is very little chance that it will happen...

but like an above poster said, lock yourself in your bedroom, dial 911, inform the "police " that you are armed and on the phone with 911, and batten down the hatches. most likely even if it is an LEA coming to haul you away, they arent going to hit you with a resisting charge if you tell them you were scared of home invasion, as long as after you assure that its the real deal you comply 100% with the requests of the officers and stay calm and cooperative . and even if they hit you with a charge because of it, you have a good chance of beating the resisting/obstruction charge in court, as long as you can show a basis of home invasions or other burglary/kidnapping in your area you could fear....

Dr. Strangelove
March 3, 2011, 04:09 AM
As above, there's been enough mistakes made and law enforcement wounded/killed that one: it rarely happens, two: the homeowner isn't usually charged. I misremember the date/circumstance but a Florida resident shot up an entire FBI raid team, was wounded, and won substantial damages.

The advice to fort up and call 911 is the best, My name is: My address is: Are officers at my location?

mrgoodwrench76
March 3, 2011, 09:38 AM
The advice to fort up and call 911 is the best, My name is: My address is: Are officers at my location?

I cant see this solution being feesable. It seems to me, if they are kicking in your door, your not going to have time go get up, ready your weapon, call 911, put the dogs in the closet, and so on. Cmon, thats not realistic. I'm sure the warrant serving officers wont mind at all to 'time out' while you call and verify they are who they say they are. :rolleyes:

There is no way this scenario will play out "good and happy" no matter what the decision.

Thats reality. These situations do exist and sometimes, reguardless of how prepared you 'think' you are, they will happen and probably wont turn out in your favor.

Shootin Chef
March 3, 2011, 10:56 AM
I cant see this solution being feesable. It seems to me, if they are kicking in your door, your not going to have time go get up, ready your weapon, call 911, put the dogs in the closet, and so on. Cmon, thats not realistic.

They're not exactly doing the 100 yard dash into your home, and the minute you shout that you're armed all progress through the house will come to a crawl.

Unless your bedroom is right next to the front door, or you're a slug when awoken, even on an adrenaline rush, you should have plenty of time.

mrgoodwrench76
March 3, 2011, 11:02 AM
and the minute you shout that you're armed all progress through the house will come to a crawl

I suspect otherwise. I would think this would bring them to their point faster and make you more likely to get shot. If they are to the point of serving a warrant in that manner, I doubt anything you say or do is going to deter them from accomplishing their goal.

Try this, have someone do just as the above scenerio described. See just how fast you can come to your senses and accomplish the actions described above. I think you would be suprised at the outcome. If nothing else, you get a little practice and become a little more prepared. No harm in that.

Vanya
March 3, 2011, 11:40 AM
Lock the bedroom door, rack the shotgun, dial 911 on speaker with the cell, and announce I'm armed and I need a name and badge number which hopefully I will verify with 911.
As far as I'm concerned, this is the best response to any home invasion, by police or otherwise. It's a complete fantasy to think you're going to venture out of the bedroom -- or other "safe room," if you have one -- and singlehandedly take on multiple armed intruders with any likelihood of success.

Hole up, arm yourself, call 911 on the cell phone, and announce loudly that you're doing so. If you think it will take too long to do all this, you need to figure out how to do it faster.

BlueTrain
March 3, 2011, 11:40 AM
Not to throw a monkey wrench into the possible solutions, but a dog is no problem for the police, even if they're in the wrong. The dog will be shot dead.

mrgoodwrench76
March 3, 2011, 11:48 AM
The dog will be shot dead.

True, but it would at very least slow them down, make a lot of noise, and possible immobolize 1 or more of them.

AK103K
March 3, 2011, 12:03 PM
The dog will be shot dead.
Theres a good chance that may be the case. Theres also a real good chance whoever it is thats going to do the shooting from that side, will be too, even before the dogs, especially if they cant show proof "real fast". Either way, if the door comes in forcably, its likely to be a mess.

Youre more likely to be there at the ready with dogs than you are with anything else. We have drive and perimiter alarms, and the dogs still usually "go off" before they ever do. They also sleep with us on the bed, so they dont even have to sound off. 250 pounds jumping up tends to wake you up. :)

Daugherty16
March 3, 2011, 12:14 PM
Can't see this happening to me - i'm pretty law abiding as a rule and haven't robbed any banks or done any serial killing for weeks now. Of course, there was that little medicare scam...lol

But more seriously, the possibility of a home invasion is (while small) everpresent. I live about 20 minutes from the Petit's home in CT. Home invaders have definitely been known to employ ruses before they rush the door as you blithely open it, why mightn't they impersonate officers serving a warrant? Awakening to such would, for most of us, be far more likely to be a nefarious plot than a real warrant service.

Still, what chance do you have with multiple armed BG storming your house as you wake up and try to shake out the cobwebs? And if they're real cops, especially if they're serving a legitimate warrant, they're likely to be pumped up and trigger happy. Barricade, barricade, barricade.

Beef up your bedroom doorframe and lag it deep into the studs, hang a solid wood or steel door with interior hinges, and install the best deadbolt you can afford. At least you'll have some time to sort things out before having to shoot anyone, and a barrier behind which you might not get shot right away. I still think that a dog, or multiple dogs, provide the best early-warning system available. Yeah maybe the BG or the cops would shoot them, but a moving dog in a dark house is a hard target, especially if he has you by the throat.

Oops, what about the kids? Unless you get that canine early warning system, they may be screwed.

AK103K
March 3, 2011, 12:25 PM
Im pretty amazed that anyone would be in the position in the first place. I know some arent animal people or maybe cant have them, but there are other alternatives.

I also think an alarm that goes off before they even get close to the door is important, and actually better than one on the door. Its at least a little more proactive, where the other is all reactive.

At least if you have warning and can be up, a quick call to 911 (if you have it) can at least confirm if its the cops or not, and maybe cut that headache (for both of you) off at the pass.

If not, well, here, unless a Trooper is right down the road, its about a 20-30+ minute response time when you call.

aarondhgraham
March 3, 2011, 12:38 PM
It was actually a joint thing between the Riverside County Sheriff Department,,,
And the Riverside Police department.

The problems were multi-fold,,,
The warrant was for a single address,,,
The property had 4 cabins, each with a separate address.
So essentially the warrant was invalid because it didn't specify which cabin.

This was a night bust and they decided to go in anyways,,,
They chose the incorrect cabin as their target.

There were no flashing lights,,,
They kicked in the door and entered the building,,,
I don't know for sure but I would bet they were yelling "Police".

The occupant thought he was being invaded,,,
He got his pistol from the night stand and fired a round into the floor,,,
The cops returned fire and hit him in his bed twice but there were over 100 rounds fired total.

The upshot of this was that the D.A. filed charges of attempted murder of a police officer on him,,,
They offered him a plea deal that was a felony but would have only entailed probation,,,
He got a good lawyer and several years later got a huge settlement.

This is a here-say account but a fairly accurate one,,,
The owner of the 4 cabins was the chief dispatcher for the U. C. Riverside Police Department,,,
He was my ex-wifes supervisor (she was a dispatcher) and a pretty close friend of mine at the time.

So it can happen,,,
What to do is anyone's guess.

Aarond

Ben Towe
March 3, 2011, 12:39 PM
This is the reason I have ceiling mounted remote control MGs at all entry points.:D

This is really kind of silly. If they are screaming "Police!", there are beaucoups of them, and they have on uniforms, its probably the Five-0.:rolleyes:

One guy kicks in your door? Burn him down. Police operate in packs during raids. One cop isn't going to try to be Captain America and raid a house alone.

If they're packing AKs they probably aren't cops.

You have a better chance of hitting the Powerball than such a thing ever happening (either a wrong address by the law or robbers impersonating the police).

Ben Towe
March 3, 2011, 12:43 PM
Aaron, let me get this straight... The owner was the Chief Dispatcher and they didn't think to inquire of him which one the subject lived in? That is moronic beyond all belief.

Pbearperry
March 3, 2011, 12:47 PM
Before complying I would try to look out the windows to see if there were any Police Cars there if I had time.I would also try to shine a powerful light on the folks coming thru the door and hope I had a split second to make a choice of which way to go.

aarondhgraham
March 3, 2011, 01:04 PM
The owner was the Chief Dispatcher and they didn't think to inquire of him which one the subject lived in? That is moronic beyond all belief.

He was chief dispatcher for the U. C. Riverside Police Department,,,
That's the University of California at Riverside Campus PD,,,
Not the City of Riverside Police Department.

But you are correct about the moronic part,,,
When they got there and realized they had an invalid warrant,,,
They should have stood down, got a new warrant, and raided the correct cabin.

Each cabin had a separate mailing address,,,
1234A S. Oak St,,,
1234B S. Oak St,,,
1234C S. Oak St,,,
1234D S. Oak St.

The warrant listed 1234 S. Oak St,,,
California law states warrants must be for a specific building
That's why the guy eventually won a huge settlement based on physical harm suffered and harassment under cover of authority.

The harassment was for the D.A. charging him with a felony,,,
So the bad warrant stuff would go away.

Aarond

markj
March 3, 2011, 02:14 PM
What if you are sleeping in the middle of the night and you hear what seem like your door being kicked in. So you get up and you hear "It's the police, we have a warrant and let me see your hands” My question is what do you do? Do you comply or engage?

Best comply at this point, no early warning bark, no camera, no motion sensored lite to warn you. Just a kicked in door while you are rubbing yer eyes trying to wake up and figure out what the heck is going on.

Draw a gun and you will more than likely get shot up.

mrgoodwrench76
March 3, 2011, 03:30 PM
You have a better chance of hitting the Powerball than such a thing ever happening

Maybe so, but that dosn't stop people from buying powerball tickets. Shouldn't stop you from considering the possabilities either.

MLeake
March 3, 2011, 07:55 PM
... Volusia County, IIRC, in 1986.

Sheriff's SWAT team executed a no-knock on a home where informants said major drug deals were going down. Adult male home-owner had fallen asleep while watching a movie, with a .25 auto in his pocket. He woke up to the door crashing in, and his wife and kids screaming. First officer into the room took a .25 round; unfortunately for the officer, it didn't hit his vest, but instead entered in the arm hole of the vest, went through his armpit, and killed him.

Other SWAT members showed good discipline, and did NOT shoot the home-owner.

Search of the home found one or two small marijuana plants in the high school aged son's closet; small ones, personal use size. Parents were unaware.

Powder found in the home was found to be back powder. Home-owner was a painter, who had chronic back pain from a fall from some scaffolding.

Other than the plants in the kid's room, nothing was found.

Sheriff wanted charges brought. DA obliged and filed. One of my college profs helped the defendant with pro bono representation. They plead self-defense against an unidentified threat. They used the no-knock warrant as part of the defense.

Defendant was found Not Guilty.

IIRC, the defendant was quite upset when he realized that he had shot a cop. He had no reason to expect the home invaders to be police, as he had no knowledge of his kid's pot. Even if he had known about it, there wasn't enough there to justify a SWAT team. He thought he had felons breaking into his home.

But sometimes the SWAT raid is for real.

I'd concur with those who say barricade, and call 911 to verify. I'd also concur with those who recommend alarm systems and dogs, because if you don't have a warning, and the reaction time it provides, your list of options gets very short.

Sport45
March 3, 2011, 08:01 PM
If it was really police or SWAT, there'd probably be a flash-bang or three going off before you have a chance to get out of bed. (You were sound asleep, right?) They would have control of the situation and if you were to be pointing a gun at them when they came through your door you will be in a world of hurt.

So, prepare for the amateurs if you feel you must. But be ready to comply with the authorities if they smash your door by mistake.

mrgoodwrench76
March 3, 2011, 08:21 PM
Those types of mistakes should NOT happen. The people responsible for that mistake should be held accountable. To charge the homeowner is utter nonsense. On the other hand, If I told the authorities that my inlaws were growin pot.............hmm.:rolleyes:

nefprotector
March 3, 2011, 08:23 PM
Heck man.... I sleep so hard I probably wouldnt know they were even there......

Jeremiah/Az
March 3, 2011, 08:49 PM
This happened to my brother. He was standing in the kitchen making a peanut butter sandwich. The door busts open & the house is full of cops. Someone had reported a burglary in progress @ the house next door. Cops got the wrong house.

There was a rancher killed by police in southern Az. on a bad tip of a drug deal. He heard the noise, got up, grabbed his gun & was shot. No drugs found.

kylen
March 3, 2011, 10:30 PM
"WHAT IF" Scenarios like this one are crazy .. best just to comply... if something like this did ever happen, and best if this thread was closed. A little too paranoid if you ask me.

mrgoodwrench76
March 3, 2011, 10:32 PM
Why is being prepared paranoid? If paranoia saves my life someday, then being paranoid seems like a good idea. Why would the thread need to be closed??? I fail to see your point. Did you even read the posts?

youngunz4life
March 3, 2011, 10:50 PM
When this scenario plays out whether cops or bad guys, you either get down or get shot unless you clearly don't have a weapon on your person in which case you'll end up on the ground anyways. Heck you probably have a better chance in surviving if its the bad guys coming in if you don't comply. Usually the police knock on the door with the warrant or have a loud speaker or whatever its called; obviously that isn't always the case though.

egor20
March 3, 2011, 10:52 PM
While I doubt this scenario would happen??? I do agree with the "bolt hole", and have our bedroom as kind of a "safe room". We live on a farm in the middle of nowhere so I doubt the local Sheriff's are going to mistake XXXXX's farm for BBBBB's farm on the warrant. The first thing I would do is look out the window and see if there are a bunch of police cars out front, then dial 911, and ask "Hey Whats Up?". If I don't see a bunch of cars with blue and red lights on out front then we're still dialing 911 and calling in the Cavalry. Whether they are Sheriffs or BG's they're going to be a bit irritated by the constant flashing strobe lights and the noise from the alarm system.:D

kgpcr
March 3, 2011, 11:04 PM
OK it did happen once. I am not the least bit concerned with it happening. I have a million things that can happen to me that are more likely to happen that that scenario

kylen
March 3, 2011, 11:05 PM
Yes sir I did read all the posts... lots of great and different answers. This is a very odd situation. One that I just don't see having a good ending if you don't comply. I was just giving my input. I think if people bust your door down yelling police. It's best to comply. I don't see the need for THIS scenario to be addressed on TFL however. We could literally write a book of what if scenarios... and this one is just crazy.... I apologize if I offended you or anyone else for that matter. I will comply with the police. You do as you please sir.

Crosshair
March 3, 2011, 11:09 PM
Easy, shoot them until they aren't moving anymore. Until I see and read a warrant they are thugs breaking into my home. I'm not doing anything illegal and if they think I am they can give me a call and we can talk about it like adults.

Sadly, the only way such antics will probably only stop once police start being shot and killed in greater and greater numbers for pulling such stupid stunts and juries acquitting homeowners who face charges for defending themselves.

No-knock warrants have to be one of the dumbest idea ever devised, dumber than a diesel powered alarm clock, not quite as dumb as a razor-wire slinky. You are introducing violence into what should be a non-violent situation. You are attacking someone where they are the least vulnerable, in their home and where they have a massive defenders advantage. Their actions also fit the MO of that of criminals. Not to mention that many of us here have extensive collections that criminals would find very attractive, making such a door crashing event far more likely to be that of a criminal.

old bear
March 3, 2011, 11:09 PM
Things may have changed since I retired but “no-knock” warrants were issued for daylight hours only, and not to be served in the dead of night. We served warrants at night when required, but we did announce ourselves and demand entrance to the residence. There are several reasons for this, one to protect everyone involved, and to avoid the perception of Nazi Germany night time raids.
Today most, if not all, police agencies have well trained and armed “high risk” arrest teams. So for those of you who have guard dogs, and lots of assorted weapons you may take down one or two of the cops, but you will lose in the end, just through the sear volume of numbers. Think about this, do you really want to expose your family to a pitch gun battle in the middle of the night?
Now to try and answer the original question, if this were to happen to me, I want to believe that I would have the presence of mind to state in a very clear and loud voice that I had a weapon that I would use if forced to and that I was calling 911 as we spoke and for everyone to stand down and none of us would do anything stupid.

mixer152
March 3, 2011, 11:25 PM
i agree with the calling of 911, and locking an loadin the riot shotty. I do have a shotty loaded, open, with a shell ready to rack, and a .45 USP in my dresser. And yes, if u have a dog....the police, or anyone really set on coming into ur house is gonna shoot them dead. However, if the dog barks, i hope ur wearing a vest, cause u might get me, but between me and my wife....ur chances are slim also.

be safe out there, and have fun

Catfishman
March 3, 2011, 11:48 PM
SOME of the raids I've seen on reality cop shows make the cops look unprofessional. Swat teams shouldn't scream obcenities and should wear more than black clothing with Police written on it to identify them.

If someone tries to come in my house without my permission, I will arm myself and call the police. If whoever is coming in doesn't stop when I tell them to, things would come to a head.

It is important to have doors that can't be instantly breached.

Sport45
March 3, 2011, 11:58 PM
It is important to have doors that can't be instantly breached.

Good luck with that....

Shootin Chef
March 4, 2011, 12:37 AM
I suspect otherwise. I would think this would bring them to their point faster and make you more likely to get shot.

Seriously?
I mean, really?

You think officers train for hours a day, to just rush a closed door with an armed person behind it, when said person has informed them they are armed?
I can assure you that is not the way things are done by the police.

What if said person has a hostage?
What if the door is trapped?
What if the person throws open the door and starts unloading with a fully automatic weapon?

Don't think it will happen? Ask the officers who participated in the North Hollywood robbery if they thought they would face fully automatic fire that morning when they woke up.

The police are not your friends, never trust them, but don't under estimate them.

mete
March 4, 2011, 03:02 AM
Warrants ?? Nobody has mentioned the Patriot Act .Under that no one needs a warrant !

The scenario is a dangerous one for the home owner .The best you can do is call 911 but you may not have time for that. Shooting it out with a dozen highly armed and armoured cops is a bad scene.

EricReynolds
March 4, 2011, 08:48 AM
This is a good one. How do you know if they are legit or not until it's all said and done? Hopefully, a person would have the good sense not to jump up guns' a blazin against what may be the police, but...what if they're not? Kylen states it's best to comply. That's what thugs planning a home invasion posed as cops would count on and I believe that's the point of the thread. I don't think this as paranoid or should be taken down at all. Shooting Chief had the best response. If they're legit, the 911 operator will tell you and maybe the officers will slide the warrant under your bedroom door for you to read. If not the 911will dispatch real cops and the BGs will back off when they hear you announce you're armed.

AK103K
March 4, 2011, 09:50 AM
If you are awake and in the position to do anything, then calling 911 if its available, is really the only way to confirm and possibly fend off shooting the wrong people (assuming they are not yet already in). If they are cops and 911 doenst know they are there for some reason, of well, Doom on them, and probably you.

If they toss in a flash bang, and youre in the same room, its probably best at that point to drop your gun and get down. I think that would probably suffice as conformation its not the bad guys, unless of course, the cops are the bad guys (hey, its all about perspective:) ).

Me, Ill just yell out real loud (while making the coffee), if the door is opened without my say so, you'll trip the Claymores mounted in the overhead directly behind you. Then comes the hot oil, and then the dogs eat. They LOVE deep fried nuggets. :D

mrgoodwrench76
March 4, 2011, 10:36 AM
You think officers train for hours a day, to just rush a closed door with an armed person behind it, when said person has informed them they are armed?
I can assure you that is not the way things are done by the police.

I apreaciate your reassurance but where do you get your information from? Are you a trained law enforcement officer? If so then your statement MIGHT hold water but from what I've seen, Its does NOT.

I think it is more reasonable to assume that if indeed it is the police at your door and they are to the point of breeching the door, and you inform them you are armed, that will most definately escalate the situation, not diffuse it and to think otherwise would, IMO, be nothing short of naive.

If we go by the OP's original scenerio, which this thread is about, then the person in the house suprising the police with automatic weapons does not fit in this scenerio. We were to assume that the occupant of said house is a law abiding citizen who has done nothing wrong. Posessing a fully automatic weapon, for the largest part of the population, would be illegal. For the small percentage of the public that are allowed to have them, the police would be well aware of that fact and I'm sure prepared to deal with it. We should probably keep our responces limited to plausable scenerios.

mrgoodwrench76
March 4, 2011, 11:20 AM
Well said. I dont think the outcome is going to be good in any instance but any outcome that leaves you breathing is better than the alternative.

Shootin Chef
March 4, 2011, 11:22 AM
where do you get your information from? Are you a trained law enforcement officer?
Negative sir, I am not. I did, however, live with one for 11 years and still talk to him on a regular basis when I have legal/LE questions, and he retired as the head of the warrants division for the sheriffs dept, and still a state constable. Also I don't think he would lie to his son. So I do have a good bit of insight and knowledge that I've gained by annoyingly asking him lots of questions while I try to learn things.
I think it is more reasonable to assume that if indeed it is the police at your door and they are to the point of breeching the door, and you inform them you are armed, that will most definately escalate the situation, not diffuse it and to think otherwise would, IMO, be nothing short of naive.
Yet we still have crisis negotiators that talk to, and deal with, armed persons every day, AFTER the police have gone inside.
then the person in the house suprising the police with automatic weapons does not fit in this scenerio.
I don't know about your house, but my front nor my back door open into my bedroom. I have more than enough time to grab whatever weapon is at hand (in my case, a shotgun).
Posessing a fully automatic weapon, for the largest part of the population, would be illegal.
Do you live in Europe? Maybe California? 37 states say it's legal to own fully automatic weapons, last I checked, 37 was a majority out of 50. I would think that would be enough votes to win an election, even if you didn't get California.
the police would be well aware of that fact and I'm sure prepared to deal with it.
How? Unlike in CSI/NCIS/Insert another acronym here, there is no computer down at the police station that someone can jump on and pull up a detailed map and list of every gun owner in the city (ok maybe in New York City) and what they have in their safe, what type of ammo they buy, what magazines they load them with, and what they had for breakfast that morning. There's no "bat phone" to the ATF that the police pickup when serving a warrant and learn everything they need to know about the person inside.
We should probably keep our responces limited to plausable scenerios.
So you're saying, despite the fact that I could start the ordering process of a fully automatic weapon this very minute, if I had the money, and if I had said weapon the fact that it was automatic would make it my go-to weapon every single time for any sort of home invasion, that that is not plausible?
I disagree sir.

mrgoodwrench76
March 4, 2011, 11:49 AM
@ shootin chef.

I respect your opinion and everyone has a right to one. However, your statements still dont hold water and I think your either misled or missing the point.

Do you live in Europe? Maybe California? 37 states say it's legal to own fully automatic weapons, last I checked, 37 was a majority out of 50. I would think that would be enough votes to win an election, even if you didn't get California.

No sir, as it CLEARLY states in my profile, I reside in northern Arkansas. And while it is in fact legal to own fully automatic weapons, it is well known that a VERY small percentage of the population does in fact posess them which is what I have stated prior. I'm not sure how votes or an election fit into this scenerio and have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

How? Unlike in CSI/NCIS/Insert another acronym here, there is no computer down at the police station that someone can jump on and pull up a detailed map and list of every gun owner in the city (ok maybe in New York City) and what they have in their safe, what type of ammo they buy, what magazines they load them with, and what they had for breakfast that morning. There's no "bat phone" to the ATF that the police pickup when serving a warrant and learn everything they need to know about the person inside.

Using TV shows and refrences to the 'bat phone' dosn't really add credibility to your statements. And I'm sure all that paperwork that you fill out to be able to legally aquire fully automatic weapons just gets filed away somewhere, never to be looked at again :rolleyes:. To think that law enforcement would be unaware of the fact that you are legally in posession of fully automatic weapons is misleading. In Arkansas, you would have to have the Sheriff sign off on this matter after you pay the necessary fee's to aquire said firearm. I find it hard to believe the Sheriff would keep this information to himself. Again, your statements seem naive at best.

So you're saying, despite the fact that I could start the ordering process of a fully automatic weapon this very minute, if I had the money, and if I had said weapon the fact that it was automatic would make it my go-to weapon every single time for any sort of home invasion, that that is not plausible?
I disagree sir.

Not at all. You posessing a fully automatic weapon would be completely plausible and would make you fall into the catagory of the very small percentage of citizens that do as I stated before.

Im glad that you disagree, otherwise, this would be a boring discussion.

AK103K
March 4, 2011, 12:25 PM
I'm just saying this out of genuine concern. If cops bust your front door yelling search warrant, then do not touch any type of gun.
This is all well and good, as long as its the cops. And you know for sure its the cops how? ;)

I dont think the outcome is going to be good in any instance but any outcome that leaves you breathing is better than the alternative.
Youre right, the outcome either way probably wont be good, but Id prefer to be the one breathing "and" standing when its done.

If they were who they said they were, and had the wrong house, thats not my fault, and Im sure I can find all sorts of lawyers to help sort it out, and without a penny out of pocket outright too.

Somebody has to be held accountable (theyll be trying to hold you accountable for their screw up if you prevail!) and the immunity BS has to go away in cases like this. If not, then I dont think Id want to be a cop trying to execute a warrant down the road if theres not going to be some accounting and relief. Some people arent impressed by uniforms and authority, even if they seem to put up with it now.

And while it is in fact legal to own fully automatic weapons, it is well known that a VERY small percentage of the population does in fact posess them
That may depend on where you live and who your friends and neighbors are. There are quite a few floating about around here, including our house.

Now if I knew for a fact that it wasnt the cops, they might get selected, but since ours are only pistol caliber, you know, with vests and all, probably not the best choice. Rifles, or rifle caliber select fire are the better choice in that case. Id have to call the neighbor up the road in that case, but he could clear the side of the house with sustained enfilading fire with his old MG08, but if he hits my truck, there'll be hell to pay! :)

Gasoline is pretty impressive too, and actually better than a gun pretty much anytime if used correctly, but then you'll have the power crazy fire police charging in after the fact, and we all know how they can get. Give a little old man or some 450 pound girl some power....:rolleyes:


Now really, all fun aside, get yourself a couple of dogs, or an alarm system, or both, and have a phone that works, even if the wires are cut (sucks here, no cell service), and dont sleep heavy. Also be prepared to fight it out if need be.

If you live someplace like we do, better to deal with the cops, since they would at least already be there (its not like they can sneak up or anything), then to have to call and wait, since it'll be about 20-30 minutes if they arent in this end of the county. Preferably, you know they are there before they breach the door, and can get a hold of 911 or yell out the window to them and get it straitened out ahead of time.

If not, do what you think best . I got the 08 on speed dial on the hand crank. :)

Shootin Chef
March 4, 2011, 01:27 PM
as it CLEARLY states in my profile, I reside in northern Arkansas.
And those were "CLEARLY" rhetorical questions and humorous hyperbole, brought about by you mistakenly saying that the majority of the population lives under the thumb of an oppressive system (which is true, but for another thread) that makes owning a fully automatic firearm illegal. Since you "CLEARLY" were wrong, as I pointed out, you attempt to cover said error by direction attention to something completely different, i.e. the very small percentage point, which is not something I was addressing. No worries, we all make mistakes.

And I'm sure all that paperwork that you fill out to be able to legally aquire fully automatic weapons just gets filed away somewhere, never to be looked at again
Actually, that's pretty much true. SLED (that's the South
Carolina Law Enforcement Division, don't ask me what happened to the C) has an entire building dedicated to its records, and a little over a dozen employees in said building, so how often do you think those files get looked at?
I'm not saying they couldn't pull the file if it was needed, but it would take a whole lot of time and warrants like the ones addressed do have expiration dates. To say it would never be looked at again would be silly, someone, someday, may glance at it and therefore give you the semantic argument that the file was looked at... but don't take my word for it, go down to your sheriffs dept and ask a deputy in the records department where those papers are kept and how long would it take to access them. You may be surprised at the time frame.

atlctyslkr
March 4, 2011, 01:35 PM
All the more reason why no-knock should be unconstitutional.

Seaman
March 4, 2011, 02:11 PM
We had a case in Detroit not that long ago, a home-invasion gang dressed like cops (all black "POLICE" shirts with bullet proof vests) were invading, beating, raping and robbing people. Detroit PD and the FBI set up a special task force. In the meatime, one house the bad guys hit was prepared, when they came thru the front door the homeowner gave them the AK 47 treatment. One of the bad guys caught 5 rounds, went down, but survived. The other bad guys fled the scene, no doubt due to serious homeowner firepower. Later on, after a shootout with police the gang was finally busted, IIRC there were 29 gang members rounded up.

You guys are getting me nervous, guess I'll have to get the MAS 49/56 prepared again.

mrgoodwrench76
March 4, 2011, 02:17 PM
you mistakenly saying that the majority of the population lives under the thumb of an oppressive system

This statement or insinuation was never made by me. Maybe you misunderstood my statement but that surely does not make me wrong. I'm sure if you check the facts, you will find the percentage of the populaton as a whole that is in posession of fully automatic firearms, will be quite small. So do tell sir, how exactly does this make me wrong? Your arguement sitll holds no ground and has nothing to do with this discussion. If you dont like my opinion fine, but that wont change my opinion nor will twisting my words to suit your arguement. I also see no point to continue an arguement that has no bearing on the OP's original question. To each their own. Good luck to you and yours.

Daugherty16
March 4, 2011, 02:30 PM
The question isn't whether cops should or should not execute no-knock warrants. The question was, what do you do if you are awakened in the middle of the night by the sound of "police we have a warrant" and the simultaneous breaching of your front door.

The answer to some is - 1. submit.
The answer to others is - 2. barricade.
The answer to a small minority is - 3. shoot them all down like dogs.

In my opinion, 1 and 3 are both 100% wrong first reactions.

Once you verify they're cops - 1 is the only answer. Even if they're at the wrong house or totally violating your rights. Many trained armed cops keyed up on caffeine and adrenalin are not going to get a gunfight from me.
Once you identify them as BG - 2 or 3 might be right depending on many things, but 1 is totally wrong. But volunteering to take on multiple BG is for Arnie or Bruce, not me. Not unless its a last resort to save my family or myself, and even so its mostly wishful thinking and probable death. oh well.

I'm saying - harden your bedroom or bolt-hole so that you can buy yourself precious minutes to understand the situation. You grab your kids when the dogs wake you, and take them into the bolt hole too. Panic room, whatever you call it. I call it my bedroom. You peek out the windows, you call the 911 dispatch, you arm yourself, then you make your choice after you know something.

This strategy works for all intrusions into your home, not just a mass entrance by unknown police or masquerading assailants.

TXAZ
March 4, 2011, 03:49 PM
I had the chance to talk with a SWAT commander today for an extended period and thought about this thread. I asked him about 'what would you do at 0-dark-30'.... He indicated there were several issues, but no single answer:

First, at least in Arizona and some other states, warrants, with a few exceptions have to be served between 630 AM and 1030 PM, so if your <lucky enough> to live in AZ, the middle of the night scenario is not that likely. Federal has a slightly different window.

Second, he indicated that there were groups that were breaking into homes, *usually* for ripping off drug dealers, often dressed as police. He noted that most of the invaders they heard of were scant on real police gear: Most had a "POLICE" shirt, but few had real $$$ Kevlar helmets, much less a $5K LMR radio and certain other gear. Often the gear the fake cops had was all dissimilar. In addition, when the real SWAT guys go in, they follow Sun Tzu's philosophy of overwhelming your enemy by sheer numbers. He indicated they often have 'dozens' of officers at a target location. In one instance I'm aware of, it was about 40 officers.

He also mentioned that now on "No Knock" warrants, they now quickly knock and announce because drug dealers find the police "an annoyance" versus drug robbers who will likely kill them, and more likely to return fire or activate various defenses. They've had dealers with good to excellent external security and intel, start firing at them as they approached the door because they were expecting it was a drug ripoff.

Finally he noted that if someone was armed and barricaded during their entry, most <sane> police forces will reasonably provide proof that they are the real cops. Could be slipping a couple of badges under the door, tell the officer you're going to call 911 and want them to verify XYZ information about the event or an officer specific data point, etc.

Stevie-Ray
March 4, 2011, 11:12 PM
Now to try and answer the original question, if this were to happen to me, I want to believe that I would have the presence of mind to state in a very clear and loud voice that I had a weapon that I would use if forced to and that I was calling 911 as we spoke and for everyone to stand down and none of us would do anything stupid.And there it is in a nutshell. I would expect the vast majority of cops would have no problem with waiting on a 911 call from somebody that wanted proof that they were legit. After all, it's not completely unheard of for them not to be. They would then expect the guy to surrender immediately after proof was provided. (YES THE POLICE ARE AT YOUR RESIDENCE) I certainly wouldn't have a problem surrendering to them then. Let the lawyers sort it out. But, jump the gun and bust your way into where I am holing up instead of waiting, and expect a face-full of 5.56 NATO. Call it Detroit paranoia all you want, I may go down, but I'm taking some with me. No way you can convince me any real cop wants that.

EricReynolds
March 4, 2011, 11:23 PM
A bit of an afterthought here. Being able to spot a "fake" cop or recognize a real one would definitely help. Certain indicators will let you know. You should be able to spot the badge of your local PD is one. Do the uniforms match? Does one of the officers have long hair and a beard? Are they packing Desert Eagles and Raging Bulls? In essence, do they look more like the crew from Dog The Bounty Hunter than cops? These are just clues and by no means a certainty, but something to think about.

njzmartin
March 4, 2011, 11:39 PM
I have a family to protect, Theres not enough time for me to look out of the window to see if theres lights flashing, Most likely if the Police are serving a warrant lights won't be flashing (My assumption) They would want to have the upper hand by making themselves unknown so the criminal doesnt jump out of the window or escape by other means. I would grab my 500 from next tot my bed, and at the same time tell my wife to go into the closet. Rack a shell into the chamber QUIETLY, theres nothing better than the element of surprise, I would have my back to the wall about a 2 feet away from where the door will slam into when the intruder kicks in the bedroom door and then when he did kick the door in I would blow his head through the opposite wall. Realistically.

Boats
March 5, 2011, 12:35 AM
>>It is important to have doors that can't be instantly breached.
>>>Good luck with that....

About $99.00 and your own DIY skills could buy you several minutes' time even against a battering ram.

http://vimeo.com/12962982

Bamashooter
March 5, 2011, 02:38 AM
I agree with boats... There are plenty of doors that can be very hard to get through.

MLeake
March 5, 2011, 05:48 AM
... long(ish) hair and a beard, looking like a character from Dog the Bounty Hunter would actually describe a narcotics detective friend of mine to a T.

Your cop recognition rules may not work so well, if it's a narcotics vs SWAT raid.

Just a thought.

Stevie-Ray
March 5, 2011, 02:19 PM
A bit of an afterthought here. Being able to spot a "fake" cop or recognize a real one would definitely help. Good point, and where I'm moving to should make that far easier than where I am currently living. I'm currently at 20 times the population I'm moving to. I'm making it a point to get to know all the police officers at the new location, something that's virtually impossible here.

Old Grump
March 5, 2011, 03:40 PM
Lights and sirens or not I haven't done anything to warrant a raid. They will be challenged to show ID or they aren't getting into my bedroom without killing me. Old Bohunks can get ornery and the cops I know are local and know me. If they had to talk to me they would call me down to the station or outside to talk to them. If they came crashing into my house breaking doors, screaming and yelling they wouldn't be local and I would not be polite.

AK103K
March 5, 2011, 03:41 PM
Unless you live in a small town that has a police force, its pretty much impossible too. Around here, we have no local police. We do have the State Police coving the area, but they are spread pretty thin, and you rarely see one. I dont think Ive ever seen the same one twice when I did.

Personally, after living in places where we had local township cops, I much prefer having the Troopers around, even if they really dont seem to be. They seem to be a much more professional and level headed group, and theres a lot less poultry turds in the vicinity when they are.

Besides, they use radar and I got a detector! :D

Old Grump
March 5, 2011, 05:15 PM
Besides, they use radar and I got a detector! Won't help, our boys use laser, by the time you detect it you been caught. Don't do no good to run either because unless you have out of state plates they won't chase you. They know where you live. :D

EricReynolds
March 5, 2011, 06:35 PM
MLeake, I hear you there, which is why I said it's no kind of certainty, but something to think about. I know the uniforms and badges of my local, state and federal agencies. If a bunch of guys carrying guns that didn't look department issued and their uniforms look like they have been outfitted by Galls or a uniform store, I'd notice that. Beards and long hair are often used by undercovers for the reason that most police have grooming policies.

Doublea A
March 5, 2011, 09:47 PM
It is unfortunate that we have to hard bolt our doors not only from criminals but from cops as well. Perhaps it will be better if homeowners knew the procedural requirements of law enforcement especially in a "kicked door warrant situation” For example, the officers have to establish a form of contact and identification with the homeowner once they are around the premise before breaking down their bedroom door. In turn, the homeowner has to call 911 and verify before complying with the orders of the officers especially at night time.

But I also understand the officers’ point of view with the element of surprise in mind. This would not have been a problem for all of us had law enforcement always invade the right house. But occasionally innocent family lives are put at great risk.

Wag
March 5, 2011, 10:48 PM
After reading the first 40 posts, I have to comment. While I have a great deal of respect for police, if they behave like a criminal, they take a lot of risk by doing so. Serving a warrant without knocking on the door first is plain stupid and the results cannot possible be faulted by the homeowner who has no idea what on earth is going on.

As much as I do respect cops, when I hear my door breaking down and the alarm going off, that is exactly what I've prepared for by keeping a gun close at hand. At that point, rational thought is not likely to be a part of the equation and training and instinct are going to take over.

Cops and their commanding officers should very well know that and not run the risk, either to their officers or to the homeowner. In that business, mistakes are not tolerable.

After all is said and done, the fallout of such a tragedy should be lesson enough to keep it from happening again.

--Wag--

egor20
March 5, 2011, 10:53 PM
I do believe that this thread is a very interesting one for people to read. I would especially encourage the LOE's on TFL to bring this up with your SWAT, Warrant and Narcotics officers the next time you you have a strategy meetings

my .02 cents

Sport45
March 6, 2011, 01:13 AM
Seems like there's an awful lot of chest thumping going on here. Too many of us think we are going to take out the tactical response team that unluckily decides to kick our door in by mistake.

Do you really think they are not prepared to face armed, determined adversaries when they come in? Folks, these people are (or at least should be) trained to come in and take control. Your best chance of survival is to not be pointing a firearm at them when they come in. Taking one of them out before you die is no consolation at all. You won't get any points for it and nobody's going to slap your son on the shoulder and laugh about how you stuck it to the man on your way down.

On the other hand, your best chance of survival against a bunch of punks posing as LEO's may well be an armed response.

The real challenge is telling the difference...

To me, it seems the kick-proof doors would work better if they were used for bedroom doors rather than outside doors. That way you'd get the warning when the outside door was kicked. The entry team most likely won't be expecting hardened doors inside the dwelling so you'll have some time to make the 911 call after they get inside and you can communicate through the bedroom door before they come through.

Everybody closes their bedroom door for fire safety anyway, right? Might as well lock it too.

Old Grump
March 6, 2011, 03:09 AM
On the other hand, your best chance of survival against a bunch of punks posing as LEO's may well be an armed response.

The real challenge is telling the difference...Thats why you challenge them for ID. If they don;t do it and are so adrenaline charged that they just keep coming they lose their protection. By challenging them you have just told them you are amenable to talking to a police officer but if they aren't police its going to get awfully uncomfortable for everybody.

If they kick my door in they really have the wrong address because I'm just an old fogey minding my own business, no criminal activity on my property or in my house.

Danxyz53
March 6, 2011, 10:48 AM
I did a Google on the words -swat team wrong house-. I went through some the hits and it appears that SWAT teams all over the country have stormed the wrong home, sometimes with tragic consequences; 80 year old people gong to the hospital for heart attacks triggered by the raids, children in homes with gunfights, etc. Some of the incidents were caused by SWAT carelessness; hitting a house at 1234 NW Terrace, when the real target’s address was 1234 NW Drive and many of the erroneous addresses came from “reliable informants”.

Any human endeavor repeated often enough will result in errors, but given the consequences of a SWAT team hitting a wrong address, processes need to instituted to prevent such errors. Before surgery is started, a “time out” is done, to make sure that the right patient is on the table, the correct surgical predoceure is listed, all personnel in the room are identified, any special equipment needed is in place, etc, etc. Demote SWAT supervisors commanding wrong address raids to the parking ticket brigade for a year, with a pay reduction, and the wrong address raids will stop.

Here are some news accounts of SWAT hitting the wrong house.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317398,00.html

http://www.king5.com/video/featured-videos/SWAT-team-storms-wrong-house-83504747.html

http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2010/10/longview-swat-team-raids-wrong-home.html

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=32704

http://wsbradio.com/localnews/2010/05/woman-hospitalized-following-b.html

http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle-old/429/badraid.shtml

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31117

http://slumz.boxden.com/f5/apr-11-swat-team-busts-up-wrong-house-1074701/

retiredcoasty
March 6, 2011, 11:41 AM
I respect the police and the difficult jobs they have, but…

if I understand this correctly, in order to remain ‘safe’ from home invasion, either by criminals or police, my bride and I need to close and lock our bedroom door behind us? I think not. I am not the macho ‘shoot them all and let God sort them out’ type, but I am insulted that free Americans must lock the doors inside our home behind us in order to sleep safely. Maybe a better idea is to have law enforcement make damned sure that they know what the hell they are doing before they do it. Is it asking too much to expect that the police raid the proper home? Some of the anecdotal stories here have shown that the police raided the wrong home and continued raids when their warrant was invalid. Why did they do that? Their actions were illegal and were not made by mistake. The police made a conscious decision to execute entrance using an invalid warrant and then they arrested the home’s occupant for self-defense. I guess the US Constitution is rapidly becoming a urinal cookie.

Also, anyone that thinks that the bad guys won’t scream “Police” when breaking onto a home is not using their brain. Of course bad guys will say and do whatever they can to make their entry faster and/or safer. Were I a bad guy, I certainly would yell “Police” upon unauthorized entry. It is a logical tactic.

So, coupling the bad guy’s strategy of using police tactics to enter a home with the police possibly breaking down the door, it seems that the folks that will pay the most are the home’s occupants. And that, to put it in one word, is just plain wrong.

I understand that the police have a very difficult job especially when executing a warrant to a possible drug home but they must be 100% sure they are entering the correct house and that their warrant is valid. I have four cops that work for me (one retired and three active) and they have told me to yell and duck (as most here have said is the best answer). They agree that the safest option is the barricade and 911 call recommendation but the right answer does not make it just. It is a terrible statement about our society and its general disrespect of the Constitution that homeowners must physically and mentally prepare themselves for unauthorized home invasion from both criminals and police. And to think that homeowners must lock all doors behind them might be the safest answer, but not the best answer. Although I would not want to be in the police officer’s shoes when executing a warrant, I also don’t want to be the legal homeowner whose sleep is being interrupted by police or criminals.

AK103K
March 6, 2011, 12:42 PM
Maybe the police need a secret knock. ;)

won-a-glock
March 6, 2011, 02:13 PM
[QUOTE=COASTY] I respect the police and the difficult jobs they have, but… [\QUOTE]

Maybe I'm getting old and seen too much official corruption. While I expect citizens should expect some type of 'honor' out of police, I've pretty well lost faith overall. From the Dallas Police "Cocaine Cowboys" steal-swap-smear decades long drug dealing, to Houston Police virtual murder for hire, I just overhead a conversation yesterday that "America's Toughest Sheriff" has officers pilfering ammo from their armory to give to family members, apparently a common practice. One of the family members who works at Cabelas was bragging about all the free ammo he gets from his son the deputy. Even if that came to light, it's unlikely that any criminal action would be taken.

Oh well, after seeing that one local PD's IA department discounts 98 percent of all complaints against officers, then finding out what their criteria is for upholding a complaint (you basically need a news crew on-scene or a confession from the officer), it's clear the cops can't police themselves, so why should they behave?

It doesn't appear to a new phenomena: Remember Serpico? The NYPD police commissioner, after watching the movie said Well, 75% of the NYPD cops are honest. Was that an admission that (only) 1 out of 4 aren't?

So back to the question at hand, "...sleeping at night!", with all due respect and no offense toward any single officer, if anyone solo or from any organization breaks in to my little house in a threatening manner, I'm not asking for ID. As a whole, I see little to no reason to trust guys with guns and badges, as I know I've done nothing wrong.

I expected cops to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, courteous..... Boy was I a sap.

retiredcoasty
March 6, 2011, 03:21 PM
Glock, I am not saying that the police are corrupt, but when they knowingly use an improper warrant and raid an innocent family sleeping in their beds, that is a mistake… a HUGE mistake and one that they ought to know better than to make. But, and I asked this the other day to a cop friend, if the police are the people dedicated to protect and serve, why do they need locks on their lockers at work? All I received was a ‘rolling eyed’ grin. And this from a retired cop that worked internal affairs for three years. (On a side note, this is the guy from whom I bought my company and I wrote him into the deal for five years.)

I could never be a police officer. If someone kept being an ass, they would get slammed. If they spit at me, slammed. Pulled a knife on me, shot, etc. Cops have a much fuse than I do. I thank them for their dedication and work.

I guess I can’t really answer what I would do until I am confronted with the situation. I hope that I would have enough time to determine whether they were good or bad guys. I have the feeling that I would shoot AFTER making sure the intruders know that I was armed and ready, willing and able to fire in self-defense. I pray that I am never confronted with such decisions.

Ak, they do have a secret knock. It is that big, metal pipe used to break in the door! I know that would open most of my doors! :o

AK103K
March 6, 2011, 04:09 PM
but when they knowingly use an improper warrant and raid an innocent family sleeping in their beds, that is a mistake… a HUGE mistake and one that they ought to know better than to make.
I dont think that if they really "knew" it would continue, but the real point is to get it right in the first place.

They hold us to the standard that we have to get things right as far as the rules go, and we follow them, and ignorance is no excuse or defense. All I ask is they are held to the same standards, and that they be held accountable if they make the mistake. The immunity part needs to go. Somebody has to cowboy up if theres a screw up. Either that, or Im pleading "Sorry" next time they snag me doing 95 in a 65 and citing them as a defense.


Ak, they do have a secret knock. It is that big, metal pipe used to break in the door! I know that would open most of my doors!
Good point. It would open mine too. What is it with the police and firemen? If they arent smashing your door down, they want to chop a hole in your roof. Cant they see the smoke and flames coming out of my neighbors house? :)

sonick808
March 6, 2011, 04:54 PM
this is a tough topic. I have no answer, no plan, and that bothers me.

Sport45
March 6, 2011, 07:55 PM
I have no answer, no plan, and that bothers me.

I don't have a plan for this and it doesn't bother me a bit. At least it doesn't bother me any more than not having a plan for a shark attack in the swimming pool. ;)

I don't conduct any business in my house that might attract a SWAT raid. To the best of my knowledge none of my neighbors do either.

Our time is better spent planning what to do if attacked by Africanized honey bees than the police. It's one of the better things about living in America.

MLeake
March 6, 2011, 08:02 PM
... odds are highly against this stuff happening to any given one of us.

And, hopefully, you actually know your neighbors. (I've moved so often, that I typically don't know most of mine. Prior military, and contract work for the last while.)

However, bad things sometimes happen where you would not expect them.

Years ago, some friends of mine in Florida were an Air Force couple, both pilots. She was an instructor pilot at a joint squadron in Pensacola; he was a pilot at Hurlburt.

They had moved from the San Antonio area. Real estate market was soft, and they didn't get a quick sale, so they had rented out their San Antonio house and had a rental agent handling the day-to-day details.

Nice enough neighborhood; figure two O-3's salaries paid the mortgage.

Anyway, they ended up in Federal court, and out about $25k in legal fees to get their house back. DEA confiscated it, when it turned out the tenants were running a coke distribution ring out of the house. One would imagine their former neighbors were as surprised about this as my friends themselves were.

In my current neck of the woods, some fairly nice rental houses in the 'burbs have turned out to be meth labs. The landlords had no idea; in theory, neither did the neighbors.

So, if you don't actually know the neighbors, you might be surprised at the possibilities that could bring the police to your street.

Sport45
March 6, 2011, 08:41 PM
However, bad things sometimes happen where you would not expect them.

That, and everything else you mentioned above is true.

My concern is that we have people thinging of scenarios like this one and planning their course of action if it happens to them.

Some of these same people probably don't have a fire extinguisher in their kitchen or know where the lug wrench is in their car.

While I believe it is okay to think about stuff like this I think it is better for us to spend time and effort preparing for things more likely to happen.

Ryder
March 6, 2011, 08:44 PM
I would simply look out the bedroom window for police cars in my driveway or parked in the street. What they say is meaningless. With a tactical advantage of high ground and hard cover I can surrender myself but not taken involuntarily, stupid to try.

MLeake
March 6, 2011, 08:51 PM
I agree with you there.

Smoke detectors, fire extinguishers, first aid kits... there are a lot of things that should take a much higher priority, that many probably have not addressed.

Too practical and mundane, perhaps...

Lucky for me, I have that stuff, and have an RN in training in the house, so I can distract myself with less practical concerns now and then.

youngunz4life
July 2, 2011, 06:08 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/07/01/miss-man-pleads-to-manslaughter-in-police-death/

WOW

dougbull
July 2, 2011, 10:17 AM
I look at it like this,I am about to be 50, never been arrested in my life. Some one kicks in my door, shoots my dog, I will return fire. theres no reason to kick my door in. I dont care who it is. home invasions are very common here.. FL.. they beat and rob the elderly and sometimes kill...

C0untZer0
July 2, 2011, 10:37 AM
I disconnected my CO smoke detector because it would go off whenever I would cook bacon or make tater tots in my oven.

If I was really concerned about survival I'd spend the money to get a better model that trips less false positives.

If the police have to break into my house it will most likely be because I've died from carbon monoxide poisoning and no one has heard from me in a week.

TheNocturnus
July 2, 2011, 11:04 AM
Well thanks for reviving this older thread.
I had not thought of this in a while. A similar situation happened to my cousin about 7-8 years ago. The swat team set up outside his house and then proceeded to bust their way in. They did this during the day when my cousin was at work but his room mate was home. They arrested the room mate, he had no idea what was going on, and they found a bong.

They were supposed to be raiding a drug house two doors down and for some reason got the wrong address. Unluckily for my cousin and his room mate, they had a bong in the house, no drugs. Anyway, no charges were filed.

I like the idea of barricading and calling 911, that is my plan.

sigcurious
July 2, 2011, 01:27 PM
I concur with the barricade, call 911 and wait. Just because that would be my plan for bump in the night, regardless of someone shouting "police", "fbi", "captain america" or whatever.

Although I would also hope that if it were LEOs accidentally in my house, they would have cleared my apt so fast that I'd just be sitting up in bed dumbfounded, whereas I'd hope BGs even if smart enough to shout "police" would take much longer without the tactical training to clear a place quickly.

I just hope police don't have a charge for being slobbered on, as my dog would bark about them being outside, but once they came in, YOU'RE MY FRIEND HIHIHI! lol. Although it would worry me that my dog charging up to them to say hello, would be mistaken for angry dog attacking.

Edward429451
July 2, 2011, 03:23 PM
"WHAT IF" Scenarios like this one are crazy

No, their scary. If we never what if then many would not have a clue of a course of action to take if..X happens. If you were to go outside your house in your yard and look at your house with the eye of one who would attack it for forced entry...then it becomes obvious things that you can do to slow them down. There is no stopping them with our duct tape building code, but you can slow them down. You can control the environment against anyone.

You do not have to give up and hope that it is real police and not corrupt police.
Resigning yourself to giving up would be enabling the criminal element and giving up personal dignity. Adding layers of security to your home can only help. Mortise locks, foot locks, bars, jams, dogs, alarms, anything to stop them at the door.
If they have light bars their legit? HA! My friend has one.
ID the cops? Love it! Technically speaking one is supposed to be able to do this and inspect a warrant before entry, but that was back when the police were legit and not now.

I think that fortifying ones home and being able to deny entry (to anyone) is a reasonable and prudent course of action for citizens. Even if it was the police at the wrong address and they get miffed at you denying them access, later when it is all sorted out they will probably respect the fact that you were able to do it. Or not.:D

zxcvbob
July 2, 2011, 03:52 PM
The dog will be shot dead.
True, but it would at very least slow them down, make a lot of noise, and possible immobolize 1 or more of them.Of course they will shoot the dog. But that still slows them down a little, and it give credibility to my story that I feared for my life when I open up on whoever or whatever comes thru my bedroom door. If they are going to kill me anyway, I want to take as many with me as I can. [ETA: it matters to me not at all whether they really are police at that point, they are illegal home invaders trying to kill me]

If I knew there were warrants out for my arrest or if I was dealing drugs or something, my response might be different.

TylerD45ACP
July 2, 2011, 04:25 PM
What if in your half sleep half adrenaline fueled state you get your piece and SWAT shoots at you. Now that is a scary thought because it probably could happen. :eek:

youngunz4life
July 3, 2011, 12:54 AM
usually the innocent one on the bad end of a mistake has absolutely no clue what is going on. the crook already knows the drill when they have the right house!:cool:


ID the cops? Love it! Technically speaking one is supposed to be able to do this and inspect a warrant before entry, but that was back when the police were legit and not now.

During this juncture nothing is going to happen until the house is secure and every individual is contained. This is unfortunate for someone who is innocent but for Officer safety.

DRBoyle
July 3, 2011, 03:06 AM
A person wakes up and knows without a doubt they are innocent, the options should be the innocent person's and that's that. To a certain extent naturally. For example if an officer is injured initially and the rest of the unit decides to cease fire and talk to the occupant you would not expect the occupant to continue firing, etc.

Removing that risk to the job is a great way to remove the citizens from the police work. Removing the consequence for a fatal mistake (occupant has a heart attack, is shot etc) is another way to alter the police force. In another unrelated way to the topic, reducing the pay and working conditions for officers is another way to undermine the police force.

Ultimately it's hard to blame the officers doing the real work. It's always come down to those in charge and that includes passing legislation. Officers easily get a bad rep but the superiors are the real problem. They know what goes on despite the supposed ignorance.

It all sounds like a problem of accountability with a feigned concern for public opinion used when convenient.

0.02

mcwop
July 5, 2011, 08:50 PM
Just read this thread after posting mine with the same question. This is happening in Baltimore right now.

My Thread (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=456083)

jrgurkins
July 7, 2011, 07:46 AM
I live in the country. rhere are three houses on our road and none of us mark our places with street numbers. Our house isn't marked for reasons of piece of mind for my wife. Back in 94 here mother was killed in a robbery of their Gun and jewlery shop. My wife was a witness and still has dreams.
We live in a two story house and know may LE local and fed. I was EST(s.w.a.t) in the Air force. I have given this situation thought in the past and feel in my situation the best action is to Step 1-baracade in room if not enough time proceed to Step 2- Rack around in 12 ga(scary sound in dark house even to LE) Step 3- call 911 and anounce same and request assistance.
If it turns out they are LE then I would surrender my weapon to the officers on hand with assistance from 911 dispatch and everyone goes off into the sunrise and later has a story to tell about the time they were sent to the wrong house.
Moral to the story keep your head and always think not what would I do but what should I do?