45 ACP Min Case length

[brokenarrow41]

What is the minimum size case that will still work effectively? I'm new to reloading 45ACP and still used to the 30-06 stretching every time.

[AK103K]

Your loading manual should give you that on the fist page of each rounds load data.

My Speer manual says trim length for .45 ACP is 0.888 max is 0.898. My Hornady manual says its 0.893 and 0.898.

With straight walled pistol brass, I never check OAL, and shoot/load them until the case fails, which is usually a split neck. Its also usually a good long time before that ever happens too. Literally years of constant use in most cases.

[brokenarrow41]

Thanks, I'm using a Sierra Bullets Reloading Manual "Second Edition" It doesn't have minimum case length for any cartridges. Like I said, I've never been able to load without trimming and I appreciate the help. I have some cases as short as .893 and I'll give them a shot.

[AK103K]

Reloading pistol is a bit easier than rifle. You dont normally have the case worries and work like you do with rifle brass. Its also longer lived.

You may want to upgrade your manual. I think Sierra is up to its 5th edition now.

What kind of bullets are you using and what were you thinking for a load?

[brokenarrow41]

I'm waiting for my Midway shipment of 185 grain Nosler JHP's and was going to start out with 5.4 grains of Win 231 with Win primers. If they get here soon I'll be at the range this Saturday with the trial batch. Also trying out my new Bersa Thunder if I don't blow my hand off.

If all works well I'll be ordering some cheap lead bullets, I just want to get the mechanics worked out first.

[AK103K]

Blowing your gun up and your hand off wouldnt be a good start. :)

Lead is definitely cheaper. I usually use 200 grain LSWC's with either 231 or Universal.

[Jim Watson]

Straight cylindrical pistol cases can actually shorten with use as they expand to fit the chamber. Trimming is not normally required, I think I have seen three over-length .45 ACPs in only 40 years of handloading. And they all came along the same season with the same headstamp, probably one out of spec box sold here.

[maggys drawers]

M.L. McPherson Metallic Cartridge Reloading 3rd. edition:

45 ACP Minimum Case Length: 0.898 inches.

[Shoney]

You do not need to trim straight wall semi-auto pistol cases. They actually get shorter by a minuscule amount each time they are resized.

[Cascade1911]

M.L. McPherson Metallic Cartridge Reloading 3rd. edition:

45 ACP Minimum Case Length: 0.898 inches.


Should that not beMax Case Length ?

[Shootest]

In most manuals the trim to length is the minimum case length.
Lyman lists 45 ACP trim to (min) as 0.888, and max as 0.898

[Unclenick]

As Jim Watson said, these cases, as well as most others running below around 30,000 psi, will shorten with use. I tracked this once with a lot of Winchester cases that I reloaded 50 times with light lead bullet target loads. They were 0.025" shorter by the end of that experiment and still working.

The SAAMI specification, as someone else mentioned, is 0.898" +0.000"/-0.010". In other words, 0.888" to 0.898". However, only the maximum is critical to safety, while the minimum is more like a suggestion. The minimum is what bullet makers need in order to put a crimp cannelure in the right place and for cartridge makers to keep a single crimp die setting. If you use lead bullets and a taper crimp die, you can just keep the same COL, but adjust the crimp die down a little as cases shorten.

[HawkeyeNRAlifer]

The only change in size on my oldest 45 brass has been to the diameter of the rim from pounding into the breach face. After dozens of reloading cycles some of my cases won't fit into the shell holder on my press. Sometimes I can twist them back and forth and get them to slide in. These are normally some of my 20 year old cases, soon to be regulated to throw away hunting brass. Otherwise I wait until I get a split case mouth to toss the brass.

[Cascade1911]

Unclenick, doesn't the .45 ACP head space off the front of the case? If it does, wouldn't making the case too short result in problems getting a proper hit on the primer and maybe extraction problems? Of course it would probably take more than a few thousandths but I would think there is some point that too short would cause a problem. As I'm a newbie to .45 ACP I'm just asking, not disputing.

[Unclenick]

Cascade1911,

Chamber tolerances in the ubiquitous 1911's and in many other .45 ACP's get's pretty loose. I've seen estimates by a couple of smiths who see a lot of them that probably half or more of what comes to them are actually headspacing on the extractor hook even with new factory ammo. In other words, the extractor hook stops the cartridge moving forward before the case mouth gets to the lip of the chamber throat. Even if the barrel chamber is cut to spec, there is often enough space left between the back of the barrel and the breechface in the slide that the total headspace is out of spec.

Good extractors seem to put up with that. For lead bullet accuracy this is a poor situation, though, as the cartridge tips to the side of the chamber at firing and lead bullets aren't hard enough to straighten themselves out entering the throat. As a result, they are swaged into the bore at a slight angle, shaving some lead off on that lip, sending an asymmetric bullet mass down range and also increasing bore leading.

For lead bullets, target shooters, even going back to the 50's and 60's, switched to headspacing on the bullet. Lots of the old timers found they got much better consistency putting a significant roll crimp on the rounds to improve start pressure by stopping the primer from unseating the bullet before the powder burn got under way. In order for that roll crimp not to jam into the throat and cause a pressure hazard, the bullet had to be seated out far enough to meet the throat before the crimped case mouth went that far forward.

The problem with the roll crimping, as anyone reloading for revolver (where a roll crimp is usually required) can tell you is that case life is shortened and case mouth splits start before long. Mostly we use taper crimps in self-loaders these days in order to prevent that, but it won't stop primer pressure unseating of a bullet. Using hard cast bullets and headspacing on the bullet even earlier seems to help this situation. It improves accuracy, often significantly, and reduces leading. You just have to use a bullet shape stubby enough to seat out that far an still feed from the magazine OK.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60385&d=1275658843

[Cascade1911]

Lots of good info there. I just checked my Springfield Mil-Spec. With Federal AE the case is about .012 below the breach face. Case is .892. I checked a handful of once fired mixed brass and .891-893 seems the norm. One out of ten was .889.

If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that the bullet be seated far enough out so it just contacts the rifling. Yes?

[Unclenick]

I am suggesting lead (and plated) bullets be seated that way. Lead bullets not only need to enter the throat straight to remain accurate, but they are soft enough that if your press lets a round come out a few thousandths long, the gun will still close on them by forcing them into the throat.

Jacketed bullets don't seem to benefit from the special treatment, so I just seat them for most reliable feed. Lead bullets are soft enough to be prone to being distorted if they are driven into the throat if that event commences with the round pivoted to the side of the chamber against the extractor hook. Jacketed bullets straighten themselves out in the throat without damage.

[Anglicanman]

This is a pretty old thread, however I do have a question about MINIMUM case length for .45 ACP bare cases. I understand that repeated use of these, unlike repeated use of many others, does not actually lengthen the case but shortens it a bit because of case expansion in the chamber (I almost said Combustion Chamber - giving my background away). I have found a large number of my used cases measure under the stated minimum of .888" in length; some a thou or two, some by as much as .005" or even more in some cases. At what point does this become a problem, either because the cartridge spaces on the extractor hook or for some other reason?
Until I started measuring the length of the cases I never even considered this as a problem and now I wonder. Perhaps those with more knowledge can help me out.

[44 AMP]

There is below spec, and there is too short causing a problem. Max length spec is .898" Trim to length is a suggestion (NOT a requirement) and depending who's making the suggestion its usually either 0.010 or 0.005" below listed max. the idea is to trim it enough that it won't stretch enough to be over max and require trimming every time.

With the .45acp, this is not an issue. Cases are shorter than max spec and nearly always stay that way.

Go get a box of factory .45acp from a quality maker and measure the unfired case, I'll bet you a cookie its LESS than .898"

Now, the spec is for the .45acp to headspace on the case mouth, so one thinks case length is critical, and it is, if too long (very, very rare) but due to the construction of most semi autos, its not that critical if its a bit too short.

As was mentioned, with nearly all semis, too short a case will be held in place by the extractor and fire just fine. Just as too short a case fired using a moon clip in a DA revolver will be held in place by the clip, not the mouth of the case in the chamber. HOWEVER this changes when firing the .45acp from a single action revolver, such as a Ruger Blackhawk. In that gun there is a possibility that too short a case could allow a misfire.

I've never bothered keeping track of .45acp case lengths (other than seeing they're all under max length) and I've been shooting autos since the 70s and a Ruger Blackhawk in ACP since 1983.

Literally, unless you are having a problem, there is no problem with cases under trim to length.

I'm think if you had cases as short as .800 they'd still work in a 1911 (feeding from the magazine) not so sure they would be ok in a Ruger Black hawk. In my Webley Mk V, using clips, as long as they're long enough to hold the bullet, they work.

Hope this helps.

[Unclenick]

Anglicanman,

You are correct about the shortening. I once fired some Winchester 45 Auto brass through 50 reloads of light target ammo (185 and 200-grain cast bullets over 3.8 and 4.2 grains of Bullseye for 25 and 50 yards, respectively). They lost an average of half a thousandth of an inch at each load cycle and were 0.025" shorter at the end of the test.

I solved the problem of having short by headspacing on the bullet instead of the case mouth. Some adjustment of the taper crimp die on my Square Deal B press was needed over time, but the shooting was very good. Go back and look at the illustration in my post #11. I've updated the image source so it shows again.

Any case with a taper, like 45 Auto and 9 mm Parabellum can do that shortening. The problem is the carbide resizing dies we almost all use make a straight case, so the ring has to be sized for the case mouth and winds up narrowing the wider part of the taper near the head. That makes a gap between the sides of the case and the chamber that allows it to expand more than the original design had it, and that expansion pulls brass out of the length of the case. When you resize, it comes most of the way back to length, but a tiny bit of the brass is massaged permanently rearward, and that accounts for the gradual shrinkage. You don't see much of that in straight wall cases, like revolver cartridge cases.

[lee n. field]

----delete---

Thread necromancy.

[Unclenick]

Yep. It's his first post and a lot of newbies revivify zombie threads with their first posts. I think maybe it's because they joined the board due to interest in the subject matter of the thread when they read it as a non-member.

[Anglicanman]

To All,
Yes I am a complete newbie to this thread and also almost a newbie to reloading for .45 ACP. I have a Square Deal B and it and I are still getting to know one another. The latest issue is sideways primers, but I will call Dillon and get help again. I am really pleased with the way Dillon helps customers and sends little parts as needed.
Back to the case length issue; half a thou per firing as a rough estimate might give an idea of how many times the cases have been fired except that how long they were originally is an unknown.
I've used up my cast bullets; have about 2000 plated rn to load; I may well have that many used cases but I find that more than half the cases I check are under minimum spec. I have two 1911s which I bought used, both series 70s, one Gold Cup and one customized Gov Model (not by me but by a former owner) and I hate the idea of firing off the extractor but I imagine since I have so many short cases that I must have done it plenty of times before.
Uncle Nick, I did look at your illustrations of too long, too short, and just right.
I hesitate to try to locate the cartridge by sticking the bullet in to the rifling and spacing off that, but short of just tossing the short cases what do you suggest?
Great forum by the way!

[Anglicanman]

A variable which has not been mentioned as far as I know; are there overlong extractors which will extract rounds with short cases but not have the rounds space off them?

[44 AMP]

I hesitate to try to locate the cartridge by sticking the bullet in to the rifling and spacing off that, but short of just tossing the short cases what do you suggest?

I understand your hesitation, we've all heard for ever how "jamming a bullet into the rifling raises pressures, possibly dangerously...." and this is true, but the degree or risk is different between a 50K+psi rifle round and a low pressure round like the .45acp, there's a difference between jacketed and lead slugs, and there's a difference between regular loads worked up without the bullet against the rifling and loads worked up with the bullet against the rifling.

the greatest risk is high pressures and loads not intended for it being fired with the bullet in the rifling. If its allowed for in the beginning safe loads can be done with the bullet in the rifling. Muzzle loaders and scheutzen rifles do it all the time.

As to the short cases, I would just go ahead and use them for practice, or just plinking, until they actually do fail to function. If you're shooting for bullseye score, maybe keep the too short ones out of that batch, though.

Do remember that SAAMI min length specs are a voluntary standard for ammo that is going to be sold to the public, and not a "must be adhered to or the world will end" when it comes to what can work, in your personal gun.

[Unclenick]

Anglicanman,

As far as I know, if you don't want to headspace on the extractor and you have short cases, headspacing on the bullet is the only alternative.

If it is any comfort, the 45 Auto cartridge's powder space under the bullet is so small the primer often makes enough pressure to unseat the bullet before the powder burn gets very far underway. So, powder gas pressure often builds with the bullet in contact with the throat anyway. What is different is jacketed bullets are hard enough to steer the cartridge straight when this occurs, while lead tends remain cocked a bit. That's why it deforms.

Another factor is headspacing on the bullet keeps the primer a consistent distance from the breech, so the firing pin jump is consistent. I don't think that makes a big difference to handgun accuracy, but it can't hurt ignition reliability.

[Anglicanman]

Thanks for the note about SAAMI! I find a couple of interesting things as I measure cases; for one thing the case mouth is not exactly parallel with the base. If I turn the case I can sometimes vary the measurement in my caliper by a few thousandths. Today I loaded about 170 rounds and just figured if a case is between .888 and .898 it will seat on the case mouth. Half the cases at least, of the ones I have, are too short.
I wonder what the original specification way back in 1912 was for cases. Do you know?
I read the discussion about chambering off the extractor and that with jacketed bullets it may not affect accuracy all that much; just wonder sometimes about doing things in a way Mr. Browning did not intend for them to be done.
And so ... if a person plans to seat the round off the bullet into the rifling how can the overall length of the round be determined? I will have hundreds of too short cases after I use up all the ones which fall in the 10 thousandths range of OK.

[Anglicanman]

OK, Uncle Nick and 44, I am starting to get some ideas. I have 4 .45 ACP pistols and I suppose I could take all the barrels out and find out somehow how to get the base of the cartridge to match the barrel end as Nick shows. I could then load bullets that far from the case mouth for each barrel and segregate them somehow except that even with cases all for one barrel case length is a variable which will influence how far a bullet has to be out in each individual case.
Maybe I am getting too worked up about all this, after all eveythng I read seems to say that .45 ACP in 1911 is not all that fussy.
I come to reloading from a background in Motorcycle mechanics. If someone told me that piston ring end gap, for example, is supposed to be .006" +/- .010" I would not know how to act.

[Unclenick]

Your press seats the nose of the bullet a fixed distance from the backside of the case head. So, if you set the seating die up to produce the length you see in the third image from the left on my drawing, you will get that from every round regardless of case length. It improves consistency of start pressure that way, which is part of why it improves accuracy.

I have found that lead bullets are soft enough that if you have five thousandths of the kind of protrusion you see in the last image on the right end of the drawing, the recoil spring is usually strong enough to seat them anyway. If the head of the case is five or ten thousandths below the back end of the barrel extension (hood), the bullet has started into the throat and will stop before the rim hits the extractor hook in most instances. So there is really a range of bullet lengths that still work well in each gun.

Find which gun makes you seat the bullet deepest and then drop a sample round in the other barrels and see which one lets it fall furthest in. See if that is far enough that the extractor hook will catch it before it goes that far or not. If not, it will usually shoot pretty well and you can use that same seating dept for all you guns. Otherwise, you may find two seating depths, each of which satisfies two of the guns and can divide the ammo up that way. Then you just have to learn how far to turn the seating die setting to switch.

The taper crimp die will have some sensitivity to case length. You want the case mouth to wind up between 0.467" and 0.473" diameter at the mouth for normal headspacing. A lot of the target shooters the '40s, '50s, and '60s both headspaced on the bullet and applied a roll crimp (since the case mouth wasn't close enough to the throat to cause a problem) for extra bullet pull and start pressure and swore that produced the most accurate ammunition. It is probably hard to find a 45 Auto roll crimp die these days. The one I have is in an ancient RCBS die set.

[Anglicanman]

Hi Nick and 44;
It's been a few days since I have been on this forum.
I loaded a bunch of 185 gr plated swc rounds at three different lengths, all in cases which measured between .888 and .892 or so (I have never seen a .898 case yet) and found that when I went really short in OAL there were failures to feed I think because the bullet was seated too far in so that the case mouth got hung up on the feed ramp. 1.125 I think, was too short.
Now I have a bunch of cases (a few hundred at least) which are below spec. If I load those to an OAL of 1.250 or so, a length long enough so that when I do a plunk test in a barrel the base of the case is about flush with the hood will that be the way to go? I think that those rounds might well plunk into the barrel but they might not fall out as the bullet might stick in the rifling a bit. I have found that there have been cases where the round would plunk into my spare barrel but I would have to hook onto the rim with my fingernail to extract the round. Your thoughts? I hate to just throw a couple of hundred cases away. I would not be loading the SWC but plated 230 gr round nose. I realize I would be headspacing off the bullet not the case mouth.

[Unclenick]

Getting the case flush with the hood is what works for me. What cartridge overall length that produces will vary with the bullet design. Seating too deeply can also raise pressure or else cause the primer to start unseating bullets ahead of powder burn, which tends to cause irregular velocities, so seating too deeply is not good from that standpoint. It also tends to cause headspacing on the extractor hook when it is deep enough.