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View Full Version : Upset about 1861 from Taylor's.


yarrum
February 24, 2011, 06:02 PM
Sorry, I posted this in another forum also but I am a little mad. I have been researching my purchase for an 1861 Navy for a while. The ONE thing I knew I DID not want was an 8" barrel which is historically inaccurate. This ruled out companies like Dixie. To get to the point I purchased one from Taylor's which specifically said in the literature and on their website that their barrel 7 1/2" long. I got it home and laid it next to my 1851 Navy and... you guessed it... it was 8" long. I called Taylor's and explained it to them. If I want to pay for shipping to ship the one gun back AND pay them for shipping for the new gun to me AND pay for the upgrade to Uberti I can have my 7 1/2" barrel. I am ticked!!!!:

Hellgate
February 24, 2011, 07:41 PM
Yarum,
Is your gun a 36 cal? If it is a 44 then they just slap an 1860 Army upper onto a navy grip frame and call it a 44 cal Navy. I have one like that made by ASM. If it is a 36 cal, I'm surprised as my Uberti '61 navy has a 7.5" barrel.

yarrum
February 24, 2011, 09:08 PM
Before I get the ... you dumba@# their website shows it at 8". They corrected there website in the last week because of this. The website was identical to their catalog previously.

Hylander
February 24, 2011, 09:40 PM
If their web site said 7.5" then they need to make it right out of their Pocket, not yours.
I'd be PO'ed too.

madcratebuilder
February 25, 2011, 10:28 AM
If their web site said 7.5" then they need to make it right out of their Pocket, not yours.
I'd be PO'ed too.

+1

Their mistake, their nickle.

You can do a charge back on your credit card, you well be out return shipping. Then deal with a reputable company.

Hardcase
February 25, 2011, 12:10 PM
I, too, am a member of the "Taylor's needs to make it right" club. If it said 7 1/2" on the web site and in the catalog, I think that they ought to step up and cover the shipping.

Newton24b
February 27, 2011, 12:57 AM
most companies still cant decide on how to create a universal measurement system for revovler barrels.

technicaly the length can be right if they merely use length of rifled area as barrel

Hardy
March 7, 2011, 08:58 PM
We deal with Taylors. If what you bought ain't right they'll take it back. If it is a Uberti then it should be historically correct If it is a 44 c from Pietta maybe not.

WBH

Brand new 1851 36 C Uberti NIB we sell for 290.

Brand new PIETTA BOX 1851 Navy 36C w/spare cylinder $289.00

ETC on all C/B revolvers bhardy360@aol.com

kameron454ci
March 7, 2011, 10:22 PM
um its a 1/2 inch were mad about?

COSteve
March 7, 2011, 10:46 PM
Credit card companies have a mechanism for dealing with disputed charges for exactly this reason. Seller gives Buyer something other than advertised and agree to and thinks they are off the hook because of the credit card payment.

Guess what! They aren't and it costs them money to have a charge disputed.

Contact Taylors and inform them that you are disputing their credit card charge for Breach of Contract, specifically Seller's failure to deliver the agreed to item in the manner agreed to. Further, if you expended any monies to have your local FFL process the transaction, inform them that you are due those monies too.

They won't be happy; they might yell or they might bluster. But their changing of their advertisement is proof that they realize they made a mistake. They are caught dead to rights and have proved that they know they are in Breach by their own actions.

This is a simple contract law issue.


Seller offered a specific item for sale, listing it's particulars.
Seller is by definition an 'expert' on the item he is selling.
Buyer relied upon Seller's description to make decision to purchase.
Buyer accepted offer and gave consideration ($$).
Legally binding contract now exists in the eyes of all 50 states and the US Gov (as this included interstate commerce).
The Seller is in breach of contract for failing to live up to the contract.

I have over 41 years of US contract law experience and you should contact your credit card company now (don't wait till tomorrow) disputing the charges for 'failure to deliver as advertised'.

If Taylor's raises as stink, I'd consider contacting BATF to inform them of the dispute, the actions you've taken, and Taylor's failure to deal with their mistake. BAFT doesn't have a sense of humor when it comes to firearms issues.

Fingers McGee
March 7, 2011, 11:37 PM
Uberti 1861 Navies have 7 1/2 inch barrels
Pietta 1861 Navies have 8 inch barrels

Always been that way. Difference is in who made them, not who sells them.

IMNSHO, If their catalog said the Pietta had a 7 1/2 inch barrel, they should refund your money & pay return shipping. If you want the 7 1/2 inch barreled Uberti, you should make up the difference in price; but not the return shipping on the Pietta.

mykeal
March 8, 2011, 07:24 AM
If Taylor's raises as stink, I'd consider contacting BATF to inform them of the dispute, the actions you've taken, and Taylor's failure to deal with their mistake. BAFT doesn't have a sense of humor when it comes to firearms issues.
BATF doesn't give a flying about bp replicas. They're not firearms.

MJN77
March 8, 2011, 08:54 AM
They should pay return shipping, but if you want the 7 1/2 Uberti you should pay the difference in price.

Foto Joe
March 8, 2011, 09:47 AM
Personally the last thing I would do is involve the government (BATF) in my civil disagreement with a well known retailer. I prefer not to have somebody in a suit showing up at my front door wanting to see the offending "Gun".

Deal with customer service, be polite and don't threaten them with an attorney or BATF. They don't want a ******* contest with you or any other customer, they should just want you happy.

Let us know how this shakes out.

ClemBert
March 8, 2011, 10:40 AM
I guess I'm the only one who read the thread the OP posted in "another forum" (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=576876).

The firearm he described is NOT one that was shipped to him after having looked at a website. Rather, the OP personally inspected this firearm at a gunshow (at the Taylor's booth), bought it, took it home, then realized it had a longer barrel than what he wanted. He had every opportunity to measure the barrel himself, in person, before purchasing it.

Seriously, does anyone here think Taylor's was at fault? :rolleyes:

Hardcase
March 8, 2011, 10:43 AM
Whoops, a key bit of information seems to have been left out of the OP...

MJN77
March 8, 2011, 03:46 PM
Well, in light of this new information, it appears the OP is at fault.

maillemaker
March 8, 2011, 04:22 PM
Yeah, if you pick it up in your hand at a gun show and then buy it, well, it's kind of on you, I'd say. If barrel length was the prime consideration I figure you'd have measured it while you had the chance.

yarrum
March 8, 2011, 06:34 PM
Clembert,

While I was at the show I had 5 minutes to purchase the gun so I ran over to the booth. I DO NOT carry a measuring tape with me nor did I have reason to doubt their website and catalog.

I think you are assuming that everyone is as experienced as yourself in the blackpowder world as yourself.

For me it was a matter of making a list of whose barrel was 7.5". Taylor's said it was so I never doubted it. Once I realized the problem, all I wanted was to exchange it without paying freight for both guns. I was willing to pay the upcharge.

Hawg Haggen
March 8, 2011, 06:58 PM
heck just saw a half inch off of it and have it re-crowned and the sight put back on. It would be cheaper than paying shipping and upgrade.

arcticap
March 8, 2011, 07:05 PM
yarrum,
Your dispute with Taylor's is governed by laws and disclaimers. In the absence of voluntary agreement between the parties, it becomes a legal dispute. You relied on information from a website that has a disclaimer exempting them from inaccurate descriptions. And now you want to use the website description as the basis for a complaint.
I don't think that the law is on your side.
I would just send the gun back, eat the shipping fee and if they won't send the replacement with free shipping then you can still choose to buy the Uberti somewhere else.


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Foto Joe
March 8, 2011, 07:07 PM
If I want to pay for shipping to ship the one gun back AND pay them for shipping for the new gun to me AND pay for the upgrade to Uberti I can have my 7 1/2" barrel. I am ticked!

As it stands, Taylor's has offered you a solution. One which by my reasoning as a former business owner, they don't have to. I understand you're ticked, but I think in reality you should be ticked more at yourself than at them. We all make errors and sometimes they cost us a few bucks. This is one of those times.

They've made the offer making up for their typo. Could they do more? Probably but they already have what they want, your money. Either accept the offer and put the whole thing down to lessons learned or...

Go shoot the new one, post pictures and a range report!!!

Historical accuracy can really only be achieved by spending many thousands of $$$$ on a first generation Colt in firing condition. Then having the guts to actually take that antique out and repeatedly fire it risking ruining it.

Personally, given my recent problems with Uberti quality control, I think you probably got the better of the deal.

ClemBert
March 8, 2011, 07:34 PM
Private Message
Today, 06:36 PM

Greetings
CLembert,

Are you a dick in all your posts!!!

Why don't you read all my posts and get back to me with your own opinion. Why take MHO on that?

Hawg Haggen
March 8, 2011, 08:25 PM
Yarrum you come in here with your second post griping about a mistake you made and blaming Taylors for it. Now you call a respected member names. Methinks you need to grow up and get a life.

yarrum
March 8, 2011, 08:40 PM
Sorry Clembert,

I didn't think you could use that language on the forum or I would have posted the question rather than sending you a private message. Since you posted it I assume it is ok and I owe you an apology... I should have asked you flat out.

MJN77
March 8, 2011, 10:05 PM
How was Clembert being a dick? You made this post (on a public forum) You failed to mention that you bought the gun face to face. Clem just added the missing info that you left out (from a different public forum) Hawg's right. Grow up buddy. Clem aint the dick in this thread. You screwed up on your purchase. Live with it or send it back. Simple.

starbuck125
March 8, 2011, 11:55 PM
yarrum, my suggestion to your problem, either live with it, or take several other members advice cut & re-crown, or return it.
the members here are very knowledgeable, when another member has a problem , the rest try to help if they can, and give moral support on just about everything. so i ask that their be no name calling, there's no need in it. you asked & you got many suggestions , they might not be the ones that you where looking for .....
i'm glad that you did apologize.

MJN77
March 9, 2011, 12:11 AM
i'm glad that you did apologize

He only apologized for not calling Clembert a dick on the forum instead of a private message.

starbuck125
March 9, 2011, 05:21 AM
mjn77,
thanks for pointing that out.....must have misread the post. in that case, an apology is needed to clembert. in my opinion, for what little its worth.

yarrum
March 9, 2011, 09:03 PM
I find it interesting that some you feel that if I held the gun in my hand I am completely liable. I would note that Taylor's did not use that argument. According to your reasoning they should have told me "tough luck" you held it. They acknowledged the problem, after they discovered that I was right and their barrel was 8", the girl who took the call had no idea that it was not 7.5". I think you guys are so intimate with the black powder world that you think everyone should know that Pietta only makes 8". I thought they made both 7.5 and 8" and that Taylor's who sells "historically accurate" firearms only carried the 7.5".

I went through something similiar when I bought my 1851 Navy. Pietta sold both .44 (historically inaccurate) and .36. So I never thought twice that they might have two different 1861's.

Listen this whole thing boils down to...

1) I am a newbie... if someone tells me on their website and in their catalog that something is so then I guess I am dumb enough to believe it. I didn't know Pietta only had one barrel length and I thought Taylor's was the "historically accurate" place for guns.

2) When I purchased the gun It never crossed my mind that might be 8" long. If had any doubt I would have asked for a tape or at least would have asked for them to pull out the 1851 Navy if they had one so I could compare it

As far as Clembert goes. I should not have called him a name. However, his first statement to me on the other forum was completely inaccurate. He said their website PLAINLY showed the barrel at 8". I explained nicely to him that it had been changed and that it used to read the same as the catalog. He then came to this site and revived a dead thread. He placed all responsibility on me because I handled it. For reasons listed above I do not think I was completely at fault.

junkman_01
March 9, 2011, 10:04 PM
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs6/i/2005/064/c/0/Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius.gif

Foto Joe
March 10, 2011, 10:06 AM
+1 for the Junkman

CameronP
March 10, 2011, 01:50 PM
Me thinks the Mule finely expired

ClemBert
March 10, 2011, 03:05 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Waf0kv0KSWc/TJsXdEDByzI/AAAAAAAABHM/L9JSsQVUUUI/s320/27842-beating_dead_horse_what.jpg

....He then came to this site and revived a dead thread....

Seriously? No less than 7 other fellas posted on this thread less than 14 hours before I exposed your ridiculous accusation that Taylor's somehow tricked you into buying a firearm you personally inspected before handing over the cash.

I think you guys are so intimate with the black powder world that you think everyone should know that Pietta only makes 8". I thought they made both 7.5 and 8" and that Taylor's who sells "historically accurate" firearms only carried the 7.5".

You admitted that you thought that Pietta made both a 7.5" and an 8" version of the 1861 and you knew you had to be on the look out for this. You personally inspected the firearm. If you thought that Pietta made both a 7.5" and an 8" you should have had a tape measure on you, or asked to borrow a tape measure, or compared it with another cap-n-ball revolver, or discussed with the salesman your issue with barrel length. So many things could have been done on your behalf!

Just because a website shows a bunch of products it doesn't mean that it encompasses every product they sell. Your local Walmart has products for sale that are not available on the Walmart website and vice-versa.

The reason I pointed out your admission from the other forum was because I got sick of this thread, that was revived by someone else, where I read yet again how it was Taylor's fault for your dissatisfaction. Taylor's has a very good reputation around these parts. I merely pointed out the facts of your dissatisfaction to show that it wasn't Taylor's mistake. Why sit back and let Taylor's be the boogie man when I know that not to be true? Taylor's was very fair with you with regard to exchanging the firearm. They weren't generous. They were fair and...fair is fair after all.

It doesn't stand to reason that a fella who wanted a black car would go into a car dealer after dark, look at the car, then the next day complain about the car dealer because in the light of day he realized the car wasn't black but rather dark blue.

I've had two other opportunities to serve you:

1. Cap and Ball. Ready to take plunge but... (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=519906)

2. Conversion cylinder for 1851 Pietta. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=563253)

I guess, as they say, third times a charm. If you don't want my help or opinion anymore then I'll refrain. Seriously though, you're gonna get a wide range of opinions on this and other forums. It might be a good idea to avoid posting on them if you don't want to hear the opinions of this diverse crowd.

I'm sorry you aren't happy with your purchase. It is a nice firearm. You have options with it. Enjoy it as is, modify it, or sell it.


There we go....someone stick a fork in it....:p

http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/zanespal/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

Rifleman1776
March 10, 2011, 04:59 PM
Until the name calling, this was a non-issue.
A moderator needs to step in or someone will click the 'report' button soon.

Bill Akins
March 10, 2011, 06:13 PM
Yarrum I am curious about something. I realize that for some reason you wanted only a 7 & 1/2 inch barrel instead of an 8 inch barrel. But honestly, why is that extra half an inch shorter so important to you? My thoughts are this.
If you have to pull a tape out to measure it to see if it is 7 & 1/2 or 8 inches, then obviously you nor anyone else can tell with the naked eye if it is 7 & 1/2 or 8 inches. So what difference does it make? Also that extra half inch would give it a slight increase in velocity with a given load over a half inch shorter barrel. Also the sight radius would be longer, which at least in theory gives you better accuracy. I guess I just don't understand why that extra half inch of barrel length was so important for you to not have.

My other thought are that the Italian black powder manufacturers have swapped barrels and frames around so much and created so many versions of black powder revolvers that never existed in history, such as .44 "navy's" when all "Navy's" are supposed to be .36 caliber. There are other features on the reproductions that are not exactly historically accurate too. So taking this into mind, it never bothers me if a BP revolver that catches my eye is not historically correct to the thousand's of an inch. If I like its looks I'll buy it.

Methinks you make much ado about nothing. A tempest in a teapot.
I wouldn't presume to try to tell you what to do, but if it was me and I liked the looks of the revolver and if there was nothing wrong with it other than its barrel being 1/2 inch longer than you wanted, I wouldn't worry about that at all and just shoot the heck out of it and enjoy it. After all, you aren't planning on willing it to the Smithsonian institute museum as a valuable artifact after your death are you? It has no real historical value so I cannot understand how that extra half inch bothers you so much.

If you bought a car and the manufacturer's documentation said the wheel base was a certain dimension and you measured it and found that their printed documentation measurements were off by a half inch, would you really be that upset and want to return the car just because of that? If a beautiful blond lady told you she was 5 foot 4 inches and later you discovered she was actually 5 foot 4 and 1/2 inches tall, would you send her packing?

Do what you want of course, but if it was me, I'd keep it and shoot the heck out of it and enjoy it. I personally like the longer 8 inch barrels anyway because I frequently look down the side of the barrel to sight rather than using the rudimentary sights on the revolver. A longer barrel gives me a longer and better line to look down the side of.

I guess I just don't understand how one half inch of extra barrel length is such a deal breaker for you.


.

kameron454ci
March 10, 2011, 06:30 PM
most guys would kill for an extra 1/2 inch:p

Hardcase
March 10, 2011, 08:09 PM
http://www.fluidlight.com/images/stop.jpg

MJN77
March 10, 2011, 08:18 PM
Amen Hardcase.

Hardy
March 10, 2011, 08:47 PM
I never had a problem with Taylors but I am one of their retailers. They have always treated us good. In fact, I've ordered guns and when they came in, I told them those customers have flown the coop. No problem. But buying at a show---I don't know. Life is short:D If you bought 20 then I might be upset. I've bought some 2n'd and 3'rd gen colts that made me mad. As for example, I bought a 3rd Walker that was supposed to come in Colt box. It came in some box that I have no idea who made it . I was sad but I ate it anyway:mad: But ---if just shipping cost got you tore up, then you'll be mad again one day on another purchase. C/B guns ain't perfect all the time. Ain't that right!?

yarrum
March 10, 2011, 10:45 PM
I surrender!!!!!

I may not have heard what I wanted to hear on the forum but the busting of someones backside (mine in this case) is something I can appreciate and the art work is pretty funny.