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Wrath of Firepower
February 23, 2011, 11:20 AM
Just wondering why it seems the AR 10 takes a back seat to the AR 15. Is it the cost factor or the caliber or the interchangeability of parts ? My perception is that the AR 15 gets more attention by 10 to 1.

precision_shooter
February 23, 2011, 11:32 AM
AR15 = More affordable Platform, more affordable ammo (military surplus/reloading is cheaper), parts galor to be found from everywhere, parts are cheaper, rifle is lighter and smaller...to name a few.

Edit: Mags are also cheaper and a whole lot more plentiful.

thesheepdog
February 23, 2011, 12:53 PM
The main reasons the 5.56 caliber gets more attention than the 7.62 version of the AR-15 are below:

1) The US military uses more of the 5.56 versions than the 7.62.

2) Ammo costs involved with ammo (5.56 is a lot cheaper to shoot).

3) Performance upgrades to US weapons that are now available to the civilian.

4) The 5.56 is easier to shoot.

5) Most people don't see the sense in buying a 7.62 version of the AR because the concept of the AR was for a lightweight; light recoiling platform with enough power to be considered a rifle.

6) The 7.62 version AR's are going to cost an arm and a leg, especially because the newer models available are going to be an adoption from the US military's new 7.62 semi-auto sniper weapon system (M110).

Jim243
February 23, 2011, 03:58 PM
If I wanted a rifle in .308 a M1A or M-14 would be a better choice and more accurate (or a Cetme or FAL). About the same cost. Or you could just go with a bolt action rifle in 308 but that doen't make sense in my mine a 30-06 or 270 or 7mm mag would make more sense.


Jim

WLJ
February 23, 2011, 04:35 PM
Most people don't see the sense in buying a 7.62 version of the AR because the concept of the AR was for a lightweight; light recoiling platform with enough power to be considered a rifle.
You are aware that the 7.62x51 version, the AR-10, was designed first? AR is just short for the designer, ARmalite, all their designs are AR-something, some are not even rifles. The AR-15 is basically a baby AR-10.

ZAT
February 23, 2011, 05:06 PM
In my not so expert opinion it has lots to do with price and availability. The AR design is centered around us military needs. The 556 was the rifle adopted so it got the design and manufacturing attention. Because of this the reliability kinks got worked out accessories became available and ammo became plentiful. For years past of you wanted a 30 cal gas gun you had the M1A, FAL or G3 designs. These had the same advantages as the AR15 did. Lots of design work to get the kinks out. Lots of parts available... Lots of history. It hasn't been till recently that the AR10 has started to make inroads. It is doing so for the same reasons that the 556 made it's name. Military interest has driven enough investment to get the kinks worked out and supply chains filled with parts.

madcratebuilder
February 24, 2011, 08:29 AM
One word, COST.

You can build a high speed, low drag AR15 for about 1K, the same in the AR10 is 2K+.

AK103K
February 24, 2011, 08:59 AM
If I wanted a rifle in .308 a M1A or M-14 would be a better choice and more accurate (or a Cetme or FAL).
I think you'll find the .308 AR's will easily out shoot any of the above, even the accurized versions. They are also a lot easier to accessorize.


It hasn't been till recently that the AR10 has started to make inroads. It is doing so for the same reasons that the 556 made it's name. Military interest has driven enough investment to get the kinks worked out and supply chains filled with parts.
I agree. They may have drug out the M14's as a stop gap, but whats been replacing them for awhile now, are AR type rifles like the Knight's Armament M110.

thesheepdog
February 24, 2011, 10:29 AM
You are aware that the 7.62x51 version, the AR-10, was designed first? AR is just short for the designer, ARmalite, all their designs are AR-something, some are not even rifles. The AR-15 is basically a baby AR-10.

Yes the original design from Eugene Stoner was an AR-10. But the ADOPTION from the military was as I stated:

because the concept of the AR was for a lightweight; light recoiling platform with enough power to be considered a rifle.

If you want a 7.62 auto-loading rifle, get an M14 or spend $2500 on a precision Special Purpose Rifle (POF, LWRC, Knights Armament, M110, etc). An Armalite AR-10 or a DPMS .308 just doesn't justify itself IMO.

Wrath of Firepower
February 25, 2011, 01:19 AM
The AR rifles seem to be very popular with civilians I think because of the large capacity magazines. It certainly would be a factor for home defense. Plus the available abundant ammo. I'm curious how many AR rifles have been sold.

thesheepdog
February 25, 2011, 09:40 AM
The AR rifles seem to be very popular with civilians I think because of the large capacity magazines. It certainly would be a factor for home defense. Plus the available abundant ammo. I'm curious how many AR rifles have been sold.

Not necessarily JUST the magazine capacity. Since the M4 Carbine and M16-A4 are still general issue weapons, the market for parts and ammo is widely available on these AR style weapons.

Besides, they also offer great accuracy, ergonomics and firepower in a light, durable and reliable platform.

madcratebuilder
February 25, 2011, 09:56 AM
If you want a 7.62 auto-loading rifle, get an M14 or spend $2500 on a precision Special Purpose Rifle (POF, LWRC, Knights Armament, M110, etc). An Armalite AR-10 or a DPMS .308 just doesn't justify itself IMO.

You are equating price with quality and that's not always the case with this platform. Of the rifles you mentioned the most successful is the ArmaLite AR10 adopted by the Canadian military.

The Canadian contract ArmaLite Super Sass rifles have been very well received in the field, and it doesn't cost 15K. You can buy a overrun for under 3K.

thesheepdog
February 25, 2011, 10:46 AM
You are equating price with quality and that's not always the case with this platform

I stand corrected on Armalite. I saw some "older" ones on a gun rack and thought they were trash. I took a look at their newer AR-10's and am impressed.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 25, 2011, 11:10 AM
Well, just speaking for myself, the main issues are:

1. Cost - initial cost of quality rifle plus cost of ammo
2. Proprietary parts - AR15 parts are pretty standardized; but with .308 ARs, we have the Armalite set of parts, the DPMS/Knights set of parts, the RRA LAR set of parts, etc. There is a lot of parts interchange there; but not quite to the same degree as AR15s.
3. Much like the military 7.62x51 is more oomph than I need for most of what I do with the rifle
4. Weight - longer action and bigger round means more weight

The one thing that has gotten me really interested in .308 semis is stuff like the Mk17 and CM901 that offer the promise of a lightweight .308 that can also use 5.56 from existing AR mags, have AR ergonomics and can use my existing optics and accessories.

Hog Hunter
February 25, 2011, 11:12 AM
I actually have the armalite ar-10 on layaway. I always wanted an assault weapon for hog hunting just didnt know witch one. Most people dont have a specific purpose for a assault weapon othere than fun to shoot. Most folks HD weapon is a hand gun or a shotgun, not all but most. I got the 7.62 round for the hogs cause it seems like it would be alot quicker kill with this round. Also not alot of people have them and I like guns that you dont see every day.

Jim243
February 25, 2011, 04:54 PM
I was shooting last summer with a shooter using an AR-10 (308) next to my station. He was not a happy camper with his new AR-10. Too loud and punishing in an AR frame. Two jams in 20 rounds FTF and extreem recoil. He would have been better off with a M1A or M-14 with heavier furniture.

I was not impressed with basically an AR-15 in larger caliber. And the cost, ouch. I'll keep my AR-15s thank you.


Jim

WLJ
February 25, 2011, 05:13 PM
and extreem recoil. He would have been better off with a M1A or M-14 with heavier furniture

I have both and for the life of me I cannot understand how someone would find the AR-10 punishing. Yes it has more felt recoil than a 5.56 AR-15, but extreme recoil? My 30-30 Marlins have more felt recoil, they don't have a buffer and they're considered mild in the recoil dept.

a7mmnut
February 25, 2011, 05:38 PM
...and what's with all this "civilians" crap? More subgroups--you just gotta love dividing lines. We will be the end of our own 2nd Ammendment rights. Anyways, my buddy and I were shooting his AR-10T that he traded his Bushy five-five-six on, and I complemented him on the accuracy and light recoil. It did indeed feel like a stout .30-30 recoil. That model does push 10 pounds, but it is very well balanced and shoots like a dream. I want a carbine version to get the weight down a little for woods carry. The correct model designation for the one I've got my eyes on is the AR10T-CBNF(whether you like it or not). Armalite is kind in estimating accuracy for each model, IMHO. We shot sub-MOA all morning with factory Hornady 150's.

Jim243
February 25, 2011, 06:13 PM
but extreme recoil? My 30-30 Marlins have more felt recoil

I can only express what the shooter said. If your 30-30 has more felt recoil, I would have the headspace checked, I use a Marlin 336c in 35 Remington and it is a light recoil and more than a 30-30.

Jim

Jim243
February 25, 2011, 06:20 PM
A7mmnut

What is this rifle going to cost? I always thought the M-14 too heavy to be carring around all day.

Jim

WLJ
February 25, 2011, 06:32 PM
Ive shot both my 20" and 16" AR-10's and my 20" 30-30 Marlins back to back and both Marlins felt as if they both had more kick than the 20" AR-10. The 16" may have tipped the scales a little I have to admit.

a7mmnut
February 25, 2011, 06:35 PM
Jim, you're still looking at at least $1300 around here, plus or minus a hundred or so. That's why neither of us currently own both right now.:(

-7-

Jim243
February 25, 2011, 06:40 PM
That's not exceptionally bad, considering they want 1,000 to 1,200 around here for a AR-15. Not sure what the AR-10s go for but I am guessing $1,500 or better. (Norther Illinois, and the taxes will kill you (10.5%)) Looks like a trip to NC would be in the near future.

Thanks
Jim

Wrath of Firepower
February 25, 2011, 08:00 PM
A7mmnut
Sorry to upset you, but only trying to make distinction from Law Enforcement and Military issued guns.

a7mmnut
February 25, 2011, 10:18 PM
Not upset, dude, only poking back. Your handle IS "Wrath", you know.;)


-7-

44 AMP
February 25, 2011, 11:03 PM
I always thought the M-14 too heavy to be carring around all day.



If you think the M14 is too heavy, you are NOT going to be real happy with an AR 10.

While the original AR 10 design was the first one sold and used by a military (not ours, btw), AR10s today enjoy the results of the lessons learned making AR 15s accurate. A friend has had several, including the actual Armalite made rifles. I don't recall which brand it was, but the one that worked best overall used FAL magazines. The others, had magazine issues, which is sad, because the rest of the rifle always performed well. The 10rnd mags did well, but the 20 and 25 rnd mags (three different generations) had problems when fully loaded.

The AR 10 is accurate enough to ring the 300 yd gong with boring regularlity, even using "blaster" grade surplus ammo. Trigger pulls (stock gun) was adequate, and not tiring to use. Not a match trigger, by any means, but entirely shootable.

Recoil is mellow, but not nonexistant. IF you learned to put your nose against the charging handle of the AR15, I would recommend a different placement with the AR10.

madcratebuilder
February 26, 2011, 09:34 AM
I was shooting last summer with a shooter using an AR-10 (308) next to my station. He was not a happy camper with his new AR-10. Too loud and punishing in an AR frame. Two jams in 20 rounds FTF and extreem recoil. He would have been better off with a M1A or M-14 with heavier furniture.

Sounds to me like that rifle had a major mismatch with the receiver extension spring, buffer and gas system. There is no recoil difference from my .308 AR platform rifle and my M1A's when shooting at the same rifle weight and ammo.

You can build the .308 platform with a short barrel, light weight tube, stock and no accessories. This well be fairly light and have more recoil than a typical M1A, but not much, certainly not more than the SOCOM.

I see several people using the term AR10 for any .308 AR platform. AR10 is a specific rifle made only by ArmaLite.

As far as cost you can get into a entry level .308 platform for the same as a mid range AR15.