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View Full Version : M1A, thing I should be concerned about when I'm shopping?


Kimio
February 20, 2011, 09:32 PM
Sadly I'm not getting a response at the M14HDW forums, so I'll post this here as well.

I'm still doing my research, and I am trying to find the advantages and disadvantages between the various types of M1A' that I can buy in order to start on the path of transforming it into an EBR style rifle.

First off, it would appear that my previous assumption that longer barrels increase accuracy was wrong, shorter barrels may actually be able to increase accuracy due to less vibration if I recall correctly, as well as contributing positively to other factors that affect accuracy.

I for the life of me cannot remember the major differences between each kind of barrel, be it chrome lined or chrome moly. I know each type have different life spans and may have better or worse accuracy than the others (If memory serves, one of the barrels has a longer life span but doesn't tend to be as accurate as another type, while the opposing style is the exact opposite, greater accuracy but shorter life span)

Second, I was wondering what kind of twist rate I should be considering for the barrel. All the ones that I have found at the particular range that I go to have a 1 in 11 twist rate.

Third, I am not really looking at this time to put a powerful scope on the rifle, I'm looking more along the lines of a x4 ACOG style scope, since the ranges that I know of locally don't go past 300 yards. However, I am willing to throw down the extra cash for a more powerful scope, since I'm hoping to practice with this particular rifle at the previously stated ranges. What should I be looking into when looking for a suitable scope for this rifle?

Fourth, how does steel cased ammunition do with the M1A, as most of you probably know, .308 ammunition is not exactly cheap, and seeing as how I don't have experience when it comes to reloading brass, I'll probably be looking into cheaper brands such as Wolf. I don't want to be using rounds that will cause problems though, such as breaking extractors or cases rupturing and such.

I have more questions, but right now it's terribly late, so I'll post them later once they've come back to me.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

4EVERM-14
February 21, 2011, 04:42 PM
This is of course only my opinion.
I have had 22" barrels capable of less then one MOA in every configuration available. Heavy, light heavy, standard, even standard with chrome lined bore. As is true with any rifle correct and proper assembly of the barrel and receiver are key to accuracy. Any barrel will shoot for a long time. But gilt-edge 600yd plus accuracy tends to fade around 4000-4500 rounds. It has been said that chrome -moly slowly opens groups while stainless more suddenly drops off. Everything still is good at the shorter distances.
As for twist rate 1-10,1-11,1-12 are the common choices. All will shoot well.
I shoot irons so I'll let others offer opinions about scopes.
Never used steel case. I think if accuracy is important it would be a shame to feed the rifle cheap ammo. The results from shooting good ammo and hitting everything you aim at are better IMO.
The M1A is a great rifle in any of it's forms. I hope you get what you want.

Vt.birdhunter
February 21, 2011, 08:13 PM
General rule of thumb; longer barrel=more accurate. It applies here.

For an "EBR" you want the Springfield Armory M1A Scout, stay away from the SOCOM.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=19

Silver Bear zinc/steel case .308's are ok, Ive shot thousands.

Kimio
February 21, 2011, 09:49 PM
Funny that you mention the M1A scout Vt.birdhunter, that is exactly the model of M1A I was looking at. I didn't really care for how short the SOCOM was, and it seemed a bit too pricey to me. The Scout seemed to offer the best of both worlds, shorter barrel, making it easier to move around, but not so short that it may impede performance at greater ranges, and IMO it just looks nicer.

I'll do some more research concerning the ammunition you suggested. How much does it usually run per box of 20? So far it's been roughly 20 to 25 dollars per 20 for me.

Tim R
February 21, 2011, 10:11 PM
Barrel twist rate......A 1 in 10, 1 in 11 and 1 in 12 are all good twist depending on what you are doing. If you are just going to shoot Ball, I would use the twist that comes with the rifle.

HorseSoldier
February 21, 2011, 10:35 PM
First off, it would appear that my previous assumption that longer barrels increase accuracy was wrong, shorter barrels may actually be able to increase accuracy due to less vibration if I recall correctly, as well as contributing positively to other factors that affect accuracy.

While you are correct about barrel harmonics in an absolute sense, you're reading a lot more into that issue than will matter at all unless you are planning to shoot competitively at a very high level. Any M14 clone should provide extremely good accuracy, and if it doesn't it's not going to be about barrel harmonics.

Third, I am not really looking at this time to put a powerful scope on the rifle, I'm looking more along the lines of a x4 ACOG style scope, since the ranges that I know of locally don't go past 300 yards. However, I am willing to throw down the extra cash for a more powerful scope, since I'm hoping to practice with this particular rifle at the previously stated ranges. What should I be looking into when looking for a suitable scope for this rifle?

It's a more difficult design to scope than others in the same category (AR-10, FAL, SCAR), but there are plenty of people out there who can give you solid advice on what you'll need to do.

Vt.birdhunter
February 22, 2011, 06:45 AM
Silver Bear .308 is around .40 cents a round, box of 20 for $7-8

SR420
February 22, 2011, 07:41 AM
You should be concerned with the quality of parts used to build your rifle.
The bolt, bolt parts, op rod and trigger group are items I would look at closely.

An 18.0" barrel with 1-5 x glass would be great at 300 yards. 1:11 ROT is pretty
much standard, 1:10 ROT is what you want if you plan to use a sound suppressor.

It is best that you buy ammo by the case. Find an ammo that you rifle likes and buy
it in bulk, you get better price and shoot the same stuff for a longer period of time.


What EBR stock are you considering? Have you seen a configuration that you like?


One last thing - don't go cheap.

Kimio
February 22, 2011, 01:14 PM
I really like the look of this particular setup, and unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure what its proper name is. The only thing I don't think I want is the rail extending over the bolt group (Correct me if that's the wrong name for it) If I recall, the M1A sometimes has issues when the bolt group is blocked, these issues usually involve shells deflecting off the rail and back into the chamber, causing a jam. To fix this, you apparently have to have a smith tweak the angle in which the shell casings eject so that they would clear the rail or scope/mount.

http://gi350.photobucket.com/groups/q401/OCSB03YO9N/07-01-10005.jpg

I may change my mind on this, but here is another good example of what I'm looking to build, except the chassis would most likely be white.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m164/zrks/DSC00086.jpg

SR420
February 22, 2011, 02:16 PM
I just finished a conversation about painting a cellulose E2 style stock white... a white SAGE EBR would be sweet.



Rifle #1 happens to be part of my personal collection and it's also my very 1st custom built EBR.

Short name: Mod 0
The long name: Crazy Horse U.S.N. MK14 Mod 0 type SEI

In it's current form: http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/MK14EBR-RI/USN%20Mod%200/th_IMG_3877.jpg (http://s895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/MK14EBR-RI/USN%20Mod%200/IMG_3877.jpg)




Rifle #2 looks like a tastefully accessorized Scout bolted into a SAGE M14ALCS.

My Scout in 2004: http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/MK14EBR-RI/th_m1a_scout_ebrb.jpg (http://s895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/MK14EBR-RI/m1a_scout_ebrb.jpg) :eek:




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Kimio
February 22, 2011, 04:07 PM
I'm not really into the whole "tacticool" gadgets, I tend to have a very minimalistic view when it comes to accessories. So the most I might add to the rifle is a good bipod, and perhaps a foregrip. The Crazy Horse is the design I fell in love with when I first saw it.

By the way SR420, very nice rifle you have there. As I had mentioned about the rail over the bolt group (again please correct me if I'm using the wrong terminology) did you have to fiddle with it at all? I've read a few articles in magazines and from the forums saying that the shells tend to hit the rail if not adjusted properly.

HorseSoldier
February 22, 2011, 04:38 PM
I'm not really into the whole "tacticool" gadgets, I tend to have a very minimalistic view when it comes to accessories. So the most I might add to the rifle is a good bipod, and perhaps a foregrip. The Crazy Horse is the design I fell in love with when I first saw it.

Really? When you start trying to turn an M14 into a fighting rifle with pistol grip, etc., you're already deep into tacticool land before you hang a single widget on it . . . ;)

Kimio
February 22, 2011, 04:58 PM
Lol, ok, well then I retract that statement. I should have worded it that I don't like adding all the stuff that I will most likely never use.

Tactical Flashlights, Night vision and infrared lasers and what have you. There are plenty of people who like that, but to me, it seems like a waste of money unless I'm actually going to use said accessories. Plus it adds unnecessary weight to the rifle, making it hard for me to handle, a 10 lb M91/30 is already giving me trouble while I'm standing, so I don't need more weight added to an already heavy rifle.

But just my take on the matter.

SR420
February 23, 2011, 07:52 AM
Kimio, the only time I had that kind of ejection issue is when I had an EOTech sitting on a traditional over the receiver mount,
the empty would strike the bottom of the optic and bounce back into the action then get pinched by the op rod.

Other than that experience, I have not had any problems with scope mounts from SEI, LaRue or SAGE on SAGE EBR stocks.


BTW, the M14 was deep into 'tacticool land' way, way back when we had the A1.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/M14A1.JPG

sailskidrive
February 23, 2011, 08:41 AM
Fulton Armory arguably manufactures the best M1A receiver on the market, however they are pricey. They have the set up you are shopping around for, the price is around $4k. I just ordered a National Match set up from them and the fit and finish far exceeds the NM Springfields that I was considering.

http://fultonarmory.com

~Sail

SR420
February 23, 2011, 08:51 AM
sailskidrive Fulton Armory arguably manufactures the best M1A receiver on the market, however they are pricey.

Really?

Who makes the receiver for Fulton and why is it arguably the best M1A receiver on the market?

Kimio
February 23, 2011, 12:45 PM
Thankyou for the info about that SR420, also Lol, yes I guess I could have used better wording to try and express what I meant rather than saying I didn't like that "Tacticool" look. More accurately as I had posted earlier, is I don't like a lot of excess stuff that I won't be using hanging off my guns. But then again, i won't be needing a SAGE chassis since I'm not a combat soldier am I? So I'll just admit I stuck my foot in my mouth and leave it at that instead of digging a deeper hole.

Never heard of Fulton Armory, will have to look them up and see if I can't compare them to Springfield. As SR420 had mentioned, can you please elaborate on why they are the best?

HorseSoldier
February 23, 2011, 02:13 PM
For the price they should be a huge step up, quality wise, over the Springfield, but I'll let the guys who know all the ins and outs between the two sort out the differences.

SR420
February 23, 2011, 02:37 PM
Combat soldiers aren't the only ones that benefit from using the SAGE chassis system.

ma96782
February 24, 2011, 02:58 AM
I for the life of me cannot remember the major differences between each kind of barrel, be it chrome lined or chrome moly. I know each type have different life spans and may have better or worse accuracy than the others (If memory serves, one of the barrels has a longer life span but doesn't tend to be as accurate as another type, while the opposing style is the exact opposite, greater accuracy but shorter life span)

Chrome lined barrels is what the original GI M14 used. Chrome enhances the life of the barrel vs. plain old steel - speaking of rust being a major issue.

Chrome moly is the type of steel.

Match barrels will not be chrome lined, it's hard to put down a perfect coat. For that reason, you'll usually see match barrels only in SS and Chrome Moly, not chrome lined.



Second, I was wondering what kind of twist rate I should be considering for the barrel. All the ones that I have found at the particular range that I go to have a 1 in 11 twist rate.

FYI.......the original M1/Garand used a 1 in 10 twist and the M14 came in a 1 in 12 twist.

There is alot of discuession/information about "What's best?"

Say it this way.........pick your bullet that you'll be using most of the time then pick your barrel twist.

This might help..........

http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm#twist rates



Third, I am not really looking at this time to put a powerful scope on the rifle, I'm looking more along the lines of a x4 ACOG style scope, since the ranges that I know of locally don't go past 300 yards. However, I am willing to throw down the extra cash for a more powerful scope, since I'm hoping to practice with this particular rifle at the previously stated ranges. What should I be looking into when looking for a suitable scope for this rifle?

Choose what you like.



Fourth, how does steel cased ammunition do with the M1A, as most of you probably know, .308 ammunition is not exactly cheap, and seeing as how I don't have experience when it comes to reloading brass, I'll probably be looking into cheaper brands such as Wolf. I don't want to be using rounds that will cause problems though, such as breaking extractors or cases rupturing and such.

Some like steel cased and/or brass berdan primered ammo, as they don't reload. So be it.

As for the extractor........well, say it this way.........SAI had problems with using non GI parts and fitting.

Just my .02.

Aloha, Mark

HorseSoldier
February 24, 2011, 03:33 AM
Combat soldiers aren't the only ones that benefit from using the SAGE chassis system.

You say that like combat soldiers actually benefit from it, which is debatable.

Keg
February 24, 2011, 03:53 AM
General rule of thumb; longer barrel=more accurate. It applies here.

For an "EBR" you want the Springfield Armory M1A Scout, stay away from the SOCOM..............

Vt.birdhunter........not necessarily true........My SOCOM patters better than my buddies Scout........Probably true in most cases tho.........

SR420
February 24, 2011, 10:37 AM
You say that like combat soldiers actually benefit from it, which is debatable.

You say that like combat soldiers don't actually benefit from the SAGE EBR chassis.

HorseSoldier
February 24, 2011, 12:14 PM
You're right, that is exactly how I say that. Attempts to make the M14 something it is not via new furniture haven't been outrageously successful.

SR420
February 24, 2011, 12:16 PM
Well, that's one opinion ain't it.

sailskidrive
February 25, 2011, 06:44 AM
>>Really?

>>Who makes the receiver for Fulton and why is it arguably the best M1A receiver on the market?

Sorry, I just kind of threw that out there without any real reference. Walt Kuleck has literally wrote the book on the M14. It's a great reference, check it out. He has a forum on War Rifles dot com where he talks about "dimensional integrity" of M1A receivers. Fun stuff. :-)



~Sail

madcratebuilder
February 25, 2011, 09:31 AM
You're right, that is exactly how I say that. Attempts to make the M14 something it is not via new furniture haven't been outrageously successful.

+1

From reading comments at LightFighter, the guys in the field, not us keyboard commandos, the EBR is not a very well thought of piece. Lack of support is part of the problem.



Walt Kuleck has literally wrote the book on the M14. It's a great reference, check it out. He has a forum on War Rifles dot com where he talks about "dimensional integrity" of M1A receivers. Fun stuff. :-)

I agree that Walt is a very knowledgeable guy and he has helped me a few times in the past with my M1A builds, but Kuhnhausen wrote the book.

The so called "dimensional integrity" is a problem on a few SA receivers, it is a small percentage. Of course if you own one it is a PITA to scope it with anything but a Sadlak kit.

SR420
February 25, 2011, 10:52 AM
-1
LightFighter is not even close to being a reputable source for information concerning the modernized M14,
they constantly refer back to Vietnam era rifles and issues. Lack of up to date knowledge is a big problem there.

The success of the young and growing M14 modernization program is nothing short of spectacular.

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/45426_427740539775_758674775_4681018_1435011_n.jpg


If you want a receiver with 'dimensional integrity' that is as close as possible to USGI you need to consider Norinco, Poly Tech, LRB and SEI (when it becomes available).








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