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aTm papi
February 17, 2011, 10:59 PM
i know this subject has been probably debated to death, but i found this video on the Outdoor Channel.

http://www.outdoorchannel.com/Shows/BestDefense.aspx?tpid=1507124132&pid=ur_tGfbC0T9rNqX7BGsFSRbAcZjIb5Sx

pelo801
February 17, 2011, 11:43 PM
i have seen this video before, in a similar thread. i think it's cool video, that touches on some good points. i think a lot of people will be surprised at the results of the .223. but this video still doesn't convince me to put birdshot in my shotgun. i think at the end of the video he sums it perfectly. you need to understand what your choice of ammo will do if you miss your intended target.

grumpa72
February 18, 2011, 12:21 AM
I will watch the video later but here is what Box O Truth did with a shotgun and two types of shot. Good demonstration of penetration.

jcsturgeon
February 18, 2011, 12:25 AM
I keep birdshot in my shotgun just because it's all I have on hand, I have thought about getting 00 buck but now I am kind of re-considering. I am still pretty sure that my Remington 870 magnum express is going to put a badguy down for the count even with target loads. I sure as hell don't want to be on the other end of that thing.

huntinaz
February 18, 2011, 11:02 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. From what I have seen birdshot do at the range of ten yards and less, I have zero doubt that it would be extremely effective on a person at in-house distances. The bigger the shot, the better. Some #2 turkey loads would be downright nasty, but even #8 would be pretty messy.

Do I carry birdshot in my shotgun for defense? No. But it would do the trick at very short distances. As distance from the target increases, you start asking for trouble though. Buckshot is obviously better.

dennishoddy
February 18, 2011, 11:30 PM
very good video

home defense ammo (bird shot)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i know this subject has been probably debated to death, but i found this video on the Outdoor Channel.

http://www.outdoorchannel.com/Shows/...sFSRbAcZjIb5Sx
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Yesterday, 10:43 PM

cougar gt-e
February 18, 2011, 11:31 PM
I'm not so sure, especially in winter when a thick leather coat may be worn with more layers under. It won't bounce off, but it may do shockingly little. If you don't want 00 buck pellets, at least move up to a goose load.

Bird shot is a great way to emasculate a shotgun. In my opinion.

Marred
February 19, 2011, 12:35 AM
If birdshot were for self defense they would of called it manshot.

PetahW
February 19, 2011, 12:10 PM
Having once discharged a 12ga shotgun, loaded with #6 birdshot, inside my house - I can give direct observation that it worked perfectly.

While most of the errant pellets did penetrate two interior plaster/wood lath partition walls, they ended up lodged inside an exterior wall w/o exiting my house.

.

sirsloop
February 19, 2011, 08:07 PM
There is no question you can kill someone with birdshot. How effectively can you kill someone with birdshot though? Can you reliably put lead into vital organs? There is no question you can with buckshot. I have 00 buck loaded in my 870.

Jake Balam
February 19, 2011, 08:30 PM
I still wouldn't risk it, I only have .45 avoid carry guns, and my HD shotgun is loaded with two shots #4 buck, and seven 00 buck.

When it comes to my families safety, there is no such thing as overkill, there is only one way in or out of my house, unless they use a ladder, and even if my shot missed and over penetrates it wouldn't be a danger to any of my neighbours.

Catfishman
February 19, 2011, 08:38 PM
If birdshot were for self defense they would of called it manshot.


Well said.

Why would anyone assume an 8 foot shot? What happens if the BG with the gun is down the hall 30 or more feet. I doubt birdshot would be very effective at that range.

If you are that concerned with hurting an innocent victim, don't go from buckshot to birdshot. Go to high power 4 shot.

youngunz4life
February 19, 2011, 08:44 PM
3" 15 pellet 00 buck. I'll take the extra recoil to get the extra 6 pellets for my family's safety. My house can have the heavier ammo too(unlike an apt as much for example). I hope to not shoot someone with the shotgun, but I assure you I'll be using deadly force if it ever comes to that.

sirsloop
February 19, 2011, 11:23 PM
...same... 3" Mag 00. I take em to the range and blast regardless of how much it kicks.

Dave McC
February 19, 2011, 11:36 PM
You guys with the 3" mag 00 loads.....

Try something. Have someone time you while you fire off a three shot series of your barnburners.

Then, do the same series using some 8 pellet R/R loads.

Note the time difference.

Those howitzer loads will certainly put a hurting, but so will the light loads and do so with less trauma in back and much faster non first hits.

Thanks.....

rjsixgun
February 19, 2011, 11:55 PM
pour some wax in that bird shot............takes on a whole new meaning. Hits as a solid mass.

pelo801
February 20, 2011, 01:13 AM
Hits as a solid mass
you mean kinda like a slug.

olddrum1
February 20, 2011, 01:34 AM
"pour some wax in that bird shot............takes on a whole new meaning. Hits as a solid mass."

I am not to sure this is a safe thing to do. It increases the weight of the payload along with the chamber pressure.

10mmAuto
February 20, 2011, 01:42 AM
There's all kinds of legal implications to non-lethally assaulting them with a firearm, even if its 100% by the book self defense.

Shoot to kill, that means don't shoot bird shot.

radom
February 20, 2011, 03:21 AM
I dont know why you would want to put wax in a birdshot load as at close range it going to act like a slug anyways. As for the box o truth vid all they proved there is bird shot sucks at non close range, we already know that.

youngunz4life
February 20, 2011, 11:13 AM
You guys with the 3" mag 00 loads.....

Try something. Have someone time you while you fire off a three shot series of your barnburners.

Then, do the same series using some 8 pellet R/R loads.

Note the time difference.

Those howitzer loads will certainly put a hurting, but so will the light loads and do so with less trauma in back and much faster non first hits.

Thanks.....

I don't doubt you Dave, and I think I know what you were getting at. After about 7 shots(give or take one round), I start noticing the difference. The 3" loads can slow you down a bit, but I wouldn't be affected until firing multiple, multiple rounds off in succession.

Dave McC
February 20, 2011, 11:26 AM
...."Until firing off multiple, multiple rounds in succession"....

Like when repelling multiple home invaders?

Continued life at times is a matter of not inches and seconds, but fractions of those. Using ammo that takes longer to re-acquire sights and recover rather than effective ammo of less Sturm Und Drang is counter productive.

8 pellet 00 loads at 1200 FPS or less are NOT Nerf shells.....

youngunz4life
February 20, 2011, 01:06 PM
yes dave but my mossberg 500 carries 7 in the tube and one in the chamber. I'm good until about 6 shots / I know this because on multiple occasions I have tried to fire 16shots in succession(reloading the 2nd 8 shells as quick as possible). At about 6 or 7 I am catching myself due to recoil, breathing for an extra second, or whatever. my adrenaline would easily get me thru the 8shots and if thats not enough then I'll have to hope the handgun works better. You know it goes both ways: the 6 (or 7 in your case) extra pellets might be the difference in my favor.

jackpine
February 20, 2011, 06:26 PM
It's in the name BIRD shot

Kmar40
February 21, 2011, 12:37 AM
I'm not worried about being attacked by methhead parrots.

Dave McC
February 21, 2011, 12:21 PM
"Methhead parrots"....

That's one mental picture I could have skipped.....

Youngunz, time yourself. You'll be glad you did. And maybe do a R Lee Ermy and shoot a couple watermelons to compare terminal effects.

The data base I can't access anymore as a civilian gave shotguns as 99% one shot stops, regardless of choke,load, gauge or number of flat black accessories bolted on.

Even a 410 skeet load has more ME than most magnum handguns can produce.

colostomyclown
February 21, 2011, 07:13 PM
You guys with the 3" mag 00 loads.....

Try something. Have someone time you while you fire off a three shot series of your barnburners.

Then, do the same series using some 8 pellet R/R loads.

Note the time difference.

Those howitzer loads will certainly put a hurting, but so will the light loads and do so with less trauma in back and much faster non first hits.

Thanks.....




Please listen to this man. I'd bet the farm he knows more than you do on this subject. Furthermore, I'd honestly be surprised to find a single 3" load in many armories across the country and abroad.

jackpine
February 21, 2011, 09:09 PM
In more than one state they limit the shot size for turkey hunting incase of an accidental shooting so that the wounds caused by the smaller shot are survivable. If your shooting to save your life do you want to make that bet on a shot load that is selected in the hunting fields to save peoples lives?

#4 buck 2 3/4" minimum for me

youngunz4life
February 21, 2011, 09:32 PM
I appreciate the advice, and I believe you that he probably knows more on the subject. Sometimes you just gotta' trust your gut though and/or go with what is comfortable for you. If I do someday have to pull the trigger to defend myself or the family(I think there is a good chance I will not have to), then I just want to use a little extra. screw the sorry b&%$@#^ who is on the other end. I've already made a decision to change his journey in this world. It's also good practice to shoot the more agressive rounds because you become more used to handling more. I actually stay away from the newer technology or the advertised 'low recoil' rounds. I love shotguns. They like it rough. I am picky about shotgun ammo more than my other firearms too(I only buy winchester&federal).The Mossberg was my first firearm, and I think I would definately feel most comfortable weilding it besides any other of my firearms in a 'true' HD situation. I'll keep this thread in mind, but the 3" does the trick for me. I will time it the next time too+possibly do some comparisons. I didn't time it the 3 times I did the shooting exercise I described above.

macsters
March 1, 2011, 01:30 AM
#8 shot=1.06 grains per pellet

1.06 grains at 1350 fps=4.28 ft lbs

for comparison, a standard .22lr round is 140 ft lbs at the muzzle.

at close range, moving as a group, penetration would be ok, but would not go through bone or more than a few inches of tissue.

at close range, it would be close to 1000 ft lbs of energy delivered over a shallow wound. That might stop (not kill, because its a shallow wound) the average joe, but if your goon is on drugs or pumped full of adrenaline, he will probably not react, and the shallow wound wont cause him to bleed out quickly, if at all.

Buck shot, on the other hand, will penetrate all the way through a person with ease, most likely hitting vital organs and major blood vessels along the way, meaning that even if your attacker/invader is high, crazy, and adrenaline pumped, he will be rendered incapacitated from blood loss or organ damage very quickly. 000 Buck is at 294 ft lbs per pellet at the muzzle at 1350 fps. a regular 9mm round is about 350-400 ft lbs, and you only have one of those hitting the target.

if you are afraid of over-penetration, go with a compromise. get #3 shot. at 1350 fps, each #3 pellet is delivering 98 ft. lbs of energy, which would be like getting hit with a dozen or more .22lr rounds at 25 yards. good stopping power, not too much penetration.

KennyFSU
March 1, 2011, 07:43 AM
I only use bird shot when I have birds invading my home.

natman
March 1, 2011, 11:03 AM
Having once discharged a 12ga shotgun, loaded with #6 birdshot, inside my house - I can give direct observation that it worked perfectly.

While most of the errant pellets did penetrate two interior plaster/wood lath partition walls, they ended up lodged inside an exterior wall w/o exiting my house.

You have no evidence that it worked perfectly. What you have is evidence is that it will fail perfectly, i.e. a miss will not overpenetrate walls.

If you ever get into a situation that justifies lethal force, you'll need to provide it, lots of it and right now. The best way to avoid unintended damage caused by misses is to not miss.

SCBondsman
March 1, 2011, 04:28 PM
I've killed and witnessed multiple hogs killed w- #4 - #6's. I have killed a half dozen or so with #5's because that's what my turkey gun shoots best.

That being said, I still don't use them purposely for SD but they would work in a pinch.

If you are still desirous about stepping up to a buckshot load there are several larger pellet sizes. There is the “Dead Coyote” Hevi-Shot load in T size shot but it’s real pricey.

I have seen a Winchester shell loaded with lead BB’s but can’t find it off hand. I’ll look a little more and post it if I can find it.

OO or #1’s for me though…

pelo801
March 1, 2011, 04:48 PM
I've killed and witnessed multiple hogs killed w- #4 - #6's. I have killed a half dozen or so with #5's because that's what my turkey gun shoots best.

i am curious about this. at what range were these hogs killed. not saying it isn't true. just curious about the effectiveness of birdshot on larger animals.

SCBondsman
March 1, 2011, 09:42 PM
The range on all that I have personally killed have been w- in 30 yards. We take our shotgun patterns seriously in the Lowcountry.

The longest I have seen killed was at 58 paces w- #4's. Didn't have a range finder on hand so we had to go old school and walk it out. My average "measuring" gait is between 2.8 - 3.2 feet. My boot sole print is right at 13" but doing the "heel to toe" DUI walk isn't (almost always not) conducive to measuring distance due to undergrowth, etc...

Feral pigs are considered a nuisance in our area and cost land owners and farmers significant monetary loss. Therefore, we put a bullet or shot into everyone we feel we can cleanly kill, so long as we aren't actively working a bird. I've had over 30 walk w- in 20 yards during turkey season and wished to put a bullet in their hide but turkeys come first, no need to "educate" the birds to shotgun blasts and turkey calls.

By the way, it is illegal to carry buckshot during turkey season in SC. Gotta work with what the law allows...

SCBondsman
March 1, 2011, 09:45 PM
If it was legal, I'd carry 3 or 4 #1's or 00's to extend my range and whack as many as I could...

loverme85
March 2, 2011, 02:56 AM
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410179

Thats an old thread of me arguing with 4 different people telling me birdshot would not kill a man in a home defense situation.

Bill DeShivs
March 2, 2011, 03:52 AM
You guys that keep saying birdshot won't kill someone need to stop.
It may or may not be the best home defense load, but birdshot most definitely can kill. Saying otherwise is extremely irresponsible.
Let me say it again- AT CLOSE RANGE, BIRDSHOT CAN KILL. IT'S NOT A TOY!!

jfruser
March 2, 2011, 07:03 AM
My wife works the surgical postop trauma floor of the local gsw/auto wreck "patch em up & bill the taxpayer county hospital. She's seen some devastating wounds with birdshot that take out great swaths of soft tissue. Some of those folks recover, some linger for days then expire due to the nasty complications that come with such wounds. Most are gangbangers shot from contact to 10 feet or so for the gravely wounded.

But, birdshot generally can't penetrate bone at noncontact range and does not act as a single projectile. She doesn't see hardly any bukshot or slug recipients, as they die before they get to the hospital or on the table. Her lesson learned is that birdshot can kill up close, eventually, but buck and slugs kill drt. Or much more likely to kill drt.

Ftr, 00, 000, and slugs for my hd shotguns.

Good luck whatever you use.

SCBondsman
March 2, 2011, 09:35 AM
jfruser & Bill DeShivs are dead on the money. Excuse the pun.

While birdshot is not the ideal SD/HD it will kill you just as dead as larger shot size.

markj
March 2, 2011, 04:49 PM
Having once discharged a 12ga shotgun, loaded with #6 birdshot, inside my house - I can give direct observation that it worked perfectly.

While most of the errant pellets did penetrate two interior plaster/wood lath partition walls, they ended up lodged inside an exterior wall w/o exiting my house.

You have no evidence that it worked perfectly. What you have is evidence is that it will fail perfectly, i.e. a miss will not overpenetrate walls.

Tell all that to the guy tried to get into my Grandmas house, oh you cant he died, he was shot with bird shot across a kitchen room was like 12 feet or so.

Any load can kill at any time. Out of any gun. If someone is after you in your house do not feel undergunned, just shoot the bad guy.

HawkeyeNRAlifer
March 3, 2011, 04:32 PM
Long before I was born, my grandfather used a 12 ga. w/birdshot to stop an intruder. Killed him from about 15'. This doesn't prove anything, but I suppose due to availability of shotguns loaded with common birdshot, it has killed more BG's than any other loading. Not a perfect load, but maybe the one that's always available in rural areas.

k511
March 3, 2011, 06:11 PM
i bet bird shot would probably do the trick... but, would i put my life on that bet? No. i would say put a light on that end of that shotgun to reduce a chance of a miss if there are little ones in the house.

sirsloop
March 3, 2011, 06:48 PM
I would steer clear of any custom ammunition, reloads, etc for home defense purposes. Use Made in the USA premium shells from a known and respected manufacturer. Test hundreds of your HD rounds through your shotgun in varying weather conditions and gun temperature conditions. IF you do ever have to use the rounds, you don't want some lawyer out to get you cause you were shooting roofing nails or something crazy out of your shotgun. :p

markj
March 4, 2011, 04:56 PM
I do keep deer slugsin mine, but I wont ever say birdshot isnt lethal, if all you have is birdshot, use it dont lay it down thinking it wont work. Then go get some good 00 buck or some good deer slugs. I have loaded up with number 2 copper plated, it will put a hurtin on anything I shoot I am sure of that.