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jms
February 17, 2011, 08:46 AM
My good friend just recieved his Sharps Quigley,he loaded 95grs.ffg,535gr lyman bullet.First trip t range they keyhole any help or comment ?

PawPaw
February 17, 2011, 08:52 AM
There's not enough information in your original post. The quick, easy answer is that the twist rate might not be fast enough for such a long bullet, but BPCR rifles have their own set of circumstances. There are a lot of variables involved and a one-line question doesn't tell us what we need to be helpful.

What's his barrel twist? What brand of powder is he using? What dies is he using? How is he loading the cartridge? Does he use a wad or coookie? Did he cast the bullet himself or buy it somewhere? What's the true diameter of the bullet? Is he sizing? Did he slug the barrel to learn about his land/groove diameters? All these things are important with a BPCR.

Rifleman1776
February 17, 2011, 09:08 AM
"ffg" means he was using black powder in his.....uh.....'black powder' cartridge rifle.
The keyholing indicates the bullet is not big enough for the bore. It is not engaging the rifling. I would think the company that made the rifle could provide reccomended bullet sizes for the barrel.

noelf2
February 17, 2011, 10:18 AM
"ffg" means he was using black powder in his.....uh.....'black powder' cartridge rifle.

I think by brand, PawPaw meant swiss, goex, something else. Could have a bearing on performance.

I also agree with PawPaw that it could be way more than just bullet diameter. Rifling twist rate versus bullet weight/length can definitely be a contributor to keyholing, even if the bullet diameter is perfect. Definitely do as Rifleman suggests and check manufacturer recommendations.

PawPaw
February 17, 2011, 11:09 AM
"ffg" means he was using black powder in his.....uh.....'black powder' cartridge rifle.

I know that ffg is black, but I was asking about brand. I know that in my Sharps I had problems with 500 grain bullets until I started using Hodgdon Triple Seven with a grease cookie under the bullet. There are lots of things that might cause that bullet to keyhole, including bullet alloy. There are lots of questions you have to ask when you're having problems with a BPCR.

Hardcase
February 17, 2011, 11:40 AM
I agree with the recommendations that everyone else has suggested, especially that your buddy should slug the barrel. Every other fix is meaningless if that bullet is rattling around the bore.

Hawg
February 17, 2011, 09:29 PM
95 grns. of powder in a case designed for 110? If he's not using a filler he's asking for trouble.

radom
February 17, 2011, 11:15 PM
95 grains of FF may well be all that will fit in a 110 case with or with out a wad.

Hawg
February 18, 2011, 05:00 AM
95 grains of FF may well be all that will fit in a 110 case with or with out a wad.


45-110 means 45 caliber with 110 grains of powder.

radom
February 18, 2011, 06:56 AM
Yes it does but you cant get 110 grains of FF in a 110 case. 45-70 means 70 grians of BP too but you cant get more than 63 to 65 grains in a new case with FFF.

c.robertson
February 18, 2011, 07:15 AM
Gentlemen, remember, when the 70, 110, 120 designations were made when the cases were baloon head and the brass was MUCH thinner throughout the case. These old cases held much more powder than modern cases designed to use smokless and much higher pressures.
I can only get about 60 grains of compressed FFG black in a .45-70 Government case of any make.
That is my understanding of 1880's era brass, someone correct me if I am wrong.

PawPaw
February 18, 2011, 08:46 AM
Gentlemen, remember, when the 70, 110, 120 designations were made when the cases were baloon head and the brass was MUCH thinner throughout the case. These old cases held much more powder than modern cases designed to use smokless and much higher pressures.
I can only get about 60 grains of compressed FFG black in a .45-70 Government case of any make.
That is my understanding of 1880's era brass, someone correct me if I am wrong.

That's my understanding as well. Those old balloon-style cases held more powder than the current production.

On another note, it looks like jms was a drive-by poster. We haven't heard from him since the original posting.

Hawg
February 18, 2011, 09:34 PM
I can only get about 60 grains of compressed FFG black in a .45-70 Government case of any make.
That is my understanding of 1880's era brass, someone correct me if I am wrong.

You should be able to get 65 in them without a compression die and still seat a 405 grain bullet. You can get 70 with compression and use a 500 grain bullet.

RwBeV
February 18, 2011, 11:48 PM
Where you getting your 45-70 case's, and just how much compression are you talking about? I have been shooting BPCR since 1980 and I can get no such loads in my guns, nor can any of the folks I shoot with.

Bob

Hawg
February 19, 2011, 12:28 AM
I used Winchester cases. You need a compression die for your reloading press.

Ideal Tool
February 19, 2011, 02:20 AM
Sharps Rifle Co. got it right the first time..and it looks like thry were alot smarter than us "enlightened" folk. The never stamped their arms .45-70, or .44-90. Instead they gave the length of case...45-2.1 for what we call .45-70
Thus they avoided all the guessing and questioning we see on this post.

RwBeV
February 19, 2011, 10:31 AM
I am well versed in compassion dies, If you look in my reloading room you will probably find 15 or 20 of them, I for the life of me cant figure why you would want that much compression. We have found that if you start cracking the powder you are basically making a new granulation this is not conclusive to accuracy.

Hawg
February 19, 2011, 11:06 AM
Because I wanted to shoot rounds with original charges and bullet weights. Weren't too shabby either.

noelf2
February 19, 2011, 12:15 PM
Because I wanted to shoot rounds with original charges and bullet weights. Weren't too shabby either.

And probably no keyholing...

Hawg
February 19, 2011, 12:23 PM
And probably no keyholing...

Nope. The heavy bullets performed best tho.

ocharry
February 19, 2011, 12:28 PM
i don't really have a dog in this fight,,,,BUT

i'm with hawg on this one,, i have been shooting BPCG for a looong time,,and i have a high wall that i worked up a load for that is 72gr ffg,, with a 530 gr bullet,,,now the front 2 driving bands are bore dia. and are into the grooves and lands when the round is loaded,,i also have a couple of sharps rifles that like the powder in the 70-71 range

if you are planning on seating a 500gr plus bullet and covering all the grooves you are gona have a hard time getting that much powder in a 2.1 case unless you compress the heck out of the powder

also to get that much powder in the case you need to settle the powder,, most guys are using a drop tube,,,my tube drop tube is 30" long,, makes a big difference,,kinda like bumping the barrel on a muzzleloader to settle the powder there

i would like to know the twist of the barrel and the diam. of the bullet,, and the alloy,,if the alloy isn't soft enough it can't bump to the bore and you will have a loose fit and that is what will generally upset the bullet in flight

for the twist,, faster for heavy bullets,, slower for the lighter bullets,,,,,1-18 oh maybe 500-550gr,,,,1-20 oh maybe 350-450gr.,,,,,BUT there are exceptions to every rule!!

that's my .02 YMMV

ocharry