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View Full Version : I'm having a senior moment,,, need a bit of help please,,,,,


aarondhgraham
February 16, 2011, 10:27 AM
What is the name given to the scenario that tested the time in which a man with a knife could close the 21' towards a man with a handgun?

I keep wanting to say it started with the letter T.

Aarond

hoytinak
February 16, 2011, 10:45 AM
Tueller Drill?

Dr_Rich
February 16, 2011, 10:50 AM
My buddy was telling me about this when he was in Juji-kung-do. He was adamant that one wielding a knife could stab someone holding a gun at a range of 21'.

I was going to see if I could google the name of this scenario for you and I ended up finding an article here (Linky (http://www.newamericantruth.com/2010/11/21-feet-is-way-too-close/)) It said: "Upon impact of the bullets, the suspect potentially has another 14 seconds of oxygen with which to operate - enough to run another 210ft or 70yds"

I've never been in this situation, but I would like to think that if a man is running at me with a knife, I'm going to shoot him in the knee and STOP the threat.

...If you've every had severe knee trauma, you know how its pretty much impossible to walk, let alone run.

Oh, and btw. Its called the Tueller Drill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill).

aarondhgraham
February 16, 2011, 10:53 AM
I knew it started with a T,,,
Just faded on the complete name.

Aarond

Don P
February 16, 2011, 12:55 PM
Senior moments are great, like blonde moments and brain farts. None of which hurt in the least bit.

JustThisGuy
February 16, 2011, 01:12 PM
Good luck on that shoot em' in the kneecap idea. Try to hit a target that small movin' at speed, wiggling side by side at 15 or 20 mph. Yeah, that'll work.

mete
February 16, 2011, 01:30 PM
Senior moments are the best thing occasionally. Mr Tueller proposed it in his training as a guide only !! It is NOT a rule , it is NOT a law , only a guide !! He is not happy about the way it's been distorted .:mad:

A BG with a knife is dangerous but within 21' even more so .

Maximus856
February 16, 2011, 01:38 PM
A gunny I had had us do this drill. He had someone dash towards us from roughly 5-7 yards away from a standstill and we would have to try to draw before they got to us. They attacker had a stick to simulate a knife and we had our sidearms in a standard leg holster. There was maybe one or two times where someone got the sidearm drawn fast enough to get what be considered a 'decent' shot. A belly shot from 'flicking' the pistol up immediately seemed like the only saving grace, however at that point the attacker was well within a striking/slashing range. Perhaps we need some more practice with our sidearms :o

As a disclaimer, the weapon used was cleared by everybody in the scenario each time and no safety was taken off.

Jim March
February 16, 2011, 01:54 PM
My buddy was telling me about this when he was in Juji-kung-do. He was adamant that one wielding a knife could stab someone holding a gun at a range of 21'.

Like Maximus explained, your buddy is wrong - the Tueller drill is also about the time to draw the gun.

raimius
February 16, 2011, 02:23 PM
Also note, the drill is based off of an attacker with knife in hand vs. a person with an open-carry duty rig.

aarondhgraham
February 16, 2011, 03:10 PM
She was a brand new park ranger in Sacramento, California.

Without going into detail she shot and killed a man who came at her with a BIG butcher knife,,,
There was a new Assistant DA who needed to make a name for herself,,,
She was determined to prosecute Kathleen for the shooting.

Her Lawyer arranged for the ADA to go to the Academy,,,
They ran that drill on the ADA several times,,,
A prosecution did not happen.

I was relating that story to a friend,,,
When I blanked on the name of the drill.

Aarond

cambeul41
February 16, 2011, 04:08 PM
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

nefprotector
February 16, 2011, 05:47 PM
"shooting one in the knee"? lol! I think that if a BG was coming at me with 21 seconds of air left & with only one well placed bullet or shot. I think that I would pump a couple more rounds into him to stop the threat.

ZeSpectre
February 16, 2011, 06:06 PM
Put on a plain white t-shirt and have a friend rush from 21ft (or further) and "assault" you with a big fat red "sharpie" marker while you draw an airsoft gun and try to shoot him.

It is very enlightening.

Google "Knife wounds" or go to this link and look at the pictures (http://www.dlsports.com/knife_dangers.html) (WARNING - EXTREMELY GRAPHIC) while reminding yourself that a knife doesn't run out of ammo.

If someone comes after you with a knife your only friend is DISTANCE and your only chance is doing whatever it takes to stop the threat.

WC145
February 16, 2011, 07:14 PM
What the heck is "Juji-kung-do"?

tmorone
February 16, 2011, 08:44 PM
What the heck is "Juji-kung-do"?


...delicious :D

WC145
February 16, 2011, 10:10 PM
What the heck is "Juji-kung-do"?


...delicious:D

Of course! Pork Juji-kung-do! What was I thinking...:rolleyes:

Glenn Bartley
February 16, 2011, 10:30 PM
As a disclaimer, the weapon used was cleared by everybody in the scenario each time and no safety was taken off. That was really poor judgement on the part of the instructor. Only rubber guns or guns made inoperable (such as no firing pin or welded shut) should have been used unless of course using guns firing Simunitions.

Nnobby45
February 16, 2011, 10:59 PM
I've never been in this situation, but I would like to think that if a man is running at me with a knife, I'm going to shoot him in the knee and STOP the threat.

From 21 feet, the average officer on a doughnut diet can run and put a knife in the officer who has to wait until the attack begins to draw--- most every time.

The videos I've seen had the responding officer tying the knife attacker with a little practice. That's knowing to draw the instance the attacker moves.

If you didn't know what was coming, you wouldn't stand a chance---even from more than 21 feet. I saw another video where officers were taught how to side step the attack and draw their weapon. One officer who feinted left and went right, did pretty well and could have shot the attacker before he turned around and came again. Officers who put an object between them and their attacker also faired well.

Good luck on the knee shot.

Maximus856
February 17, 2011, 09:01 AM
That was really poor judgement on the part of the instructor. Only rubber guns or guns made inoperable (such as no firing pin or welded shut) should have been used unless of course using guns firing Simunitions.

I can't speak for all branches of service, but it is a very common military practice. Be it practicing room clearing, doing full on assaults with BFA's and blanks, or drills such as the one we're speaking of its a common occurrence. Safety is paramount as they say and the weapons are constantly checked. I'm not saying I advocate it, but it's how it goes.

Jeremiah/Az
February 17, 2011, 10:48 PM
That 21' can be covered in less than 2 seconds. How much draw & shooting can you do in that length of time if you do not know it is coming until it starts? If you recognize the attack in one second, you have one second to react.

threegun
February 18, 2011, 06:59 AM
Then try to draw in that little time with the pressure of knowing that failure will result in viciously nasty wounds that could lead to your death.

If someone is threatening you with a knife outside the distance for them to have opportunity, which is necessary to use deadly force, you had darned better expose your firearm and if possible make a timely withdrawal. If you don't and they make a determined attack, I feel strongly that it is simply not possible to reliably stop someone with a handgun in time to prevent being injured.

There are simply to many variables and service/concealed sized handguns lack the power to reliably force compliance in the time necessary to avoid injury.

bighead46
February 18, 2011, 12:41 PM
They did a test a while back on incapacitation time. I think the 357 Magnum ranked near the top, but not the top, but even a single hit had a 3 1/2 second incapacitation time. Keep shooting until the perp is down.

Single Six
February 18, 2011, 02:04 PM
My 2 cents: Nnobby45: For what little it's worth, not all of us LE types fit the negative stereotype. After 21 years full-time on the job, I still take great pains to stay in good shape...and I never eat doughnuts while in uniform. :D Next: Knives are always bad, but never overlook the humble little box cutter. That blade may only be about an inch long or so, but it is fully capable of inflicting bloody mayhem. I once responded to a "fight in progress" call. My response time was less than 3 minutes, but by the time my co-workers and I pulled up, it was over [which gives credence to the adage of the police being minutes away when seconds count]. Anyhow, the winner of the fight was long gone, and the loser of the fight was laying on the ground in a state of moaning delirium. He'd been punched, and had also suffered ONE swipe across the belly from a box cutter. His belly innards were lying in a heap next to him.

hondauto
February 18, 2011, 07:54 PM
A shot to the face/head will fix that..
Of course after the two to the chest..One more shot placed to the head won't take long..

wyobohunter
February 18, 2011, 08:35 PM
That was really poor judgement on the part of the instructor. Only rubber guns or guns made inoperable (such as no firing pin or welded shut) should have been used unless of course using guns firing Simunitions.

I respectfully disagree. As somebody else said, we yoosta doit in the military all the time. So long as the weapon has been double or tripple checked physically and visually by all participants and everybody knows this is purely for training purposes...

Dr_Rich
February 18, 2011, 09:20 PM
I'm just saying. If you're good enough and keep a cool head, then yes, there is a chance you're going to hit a joint/bone that would slow a BG down just enough to maybe get some better placed hits. Lets face it, to go from the hip to shooting in 1.5 seconds is good. But if you have a chance of saving yourself 10 to 20% of that time, don't you think it would be a good idea to take that chance?

I mean, I know people that can get a shot on a 2" target from 7 yards out in .8 seconds. That some real cowboy stuff right there. But I know in the real world, things don't work out like they do on paper. But think about it for a second. You shot the guys lungs out and he's still got 14 seconds before he drops...I fail to see at that point how dumping $5.00 in ammo at him is going to help you out. Yeah, a head shot might do the trick. But thats almost as hard to hit as the knee itself. But you've got a lot more target area going for the legs than the head.

Just makes sense to me to shoot out the tires than to take out the fuel system when trying to stop a car. :D


Oh, but if the guy with the knife say "Just hangin out" You're pretty much done for, not matter how good you are.

Rufus T Firefly
February 19, 2011, 12:28 AM
It is estimated that LEO's are only capable of 30% body hits under stress. So you will hit a knee under stress? Ah, Thats like saying Karate is self defense. Karate is a sport. Street fighting is a defense.
Maybe you are that good. I hope you are for your sake.

hondauto
February 19, 2011, 12:35 AM
I've trained myself to make the shots that count..2 to the chest and if still coming at me.. then 1 to the head.. Hopefully when that time comes for me I will still have it down.

armsmaster270
February 19, 2011, 01:24 AM
If you hit em just right one shot will work.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/Police%20Dept/CoronerDiagram.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/Police%20Dept/Supplement-1.jpg

Glenn E. Meyer
February 19, 2011, 03:36 PM
The problem with using real weapons is that while at the beginning of the exercise the guns are triple checked, in police training - someone reloads with live ammo and someone gets shot and maybe killed. Happened a few times.

With the law, they put in a duty mag they had nearby. That might not the case for a controlled military environment.

As far as shooting the knee - forget it. You can beat the charge if you learn the movement patterns.

Maximus856
February 22, 2011, 04:45 PM
While in CONUS, weapons will never have a magazine anywhere near them unless at a firing range. Coming off the range, the NCO or range coaches will clear the weapons and this is repeated before being turned into an armory. The only people with access to rounds are the armorers, MP's, and those transporting high value equipment. It's punishable under the UCMJ to have rounds on the base unless you fall under one of those catergories. While oversea's it's dependant on the base. Some bases are condition 3, while most of the larger more secure ones are condition 4 and cleared constantly. Almost all training is done with real weapons. Like I said, I don't advocate the practice especially for civilians, but it's just the way it is. If we could afford trainer weapons, I'd be all about it.

jughead2
February 28, 2011, 07:35 PM
this old man tried it when he was younger. i knew my son was coming. he hit me before i cleared leather. a few friends had commented on how fast i WAS. i wasnt fast enough. it is an eye opener to say the least

Aguila Blanca
February 28, 2011, 11:02 PM
Like Maximus explained, your buddy is wrong - the Tueller drill is also about the time to draw the gun.
Sigh ...

No, it isn't. And it is ... sort of.

Dennis Tueller was the training officer for his department. He knew that experienced street cops develop a sort of sixth sense of when a situation is potentially dangerous, and he was looking for a way to help rookies speed up the acquisition of that sense of when to kick the level of readiness up a notch or two. The Tueller drill came out of that desire.

The idea was to teach the rookies a better awareness of how far away someone can be and still be a viable threat.

He started by having a number of his officers draw and (dry) fire from their duty holster at a signal. The average time was 1.5 seconds. He then set up a scenario with a suspect armed with a rubber knife standing with his back to an officer, who had a duty weapon in a holster. At a signal, the suspect would turn, rush the officer, and stab him in the chest. The rush was timed. The drill was to see what distance the suspect could cover in the 1.5 seconds it took the average officer to draw and fire. The distance turned out to be 21 feet.

It is important to note that at NO time did the Tueller drill actually result in a rule that you must shoot a threat if he's less than 21 feet away, and it did NOT in any way establish that you have some mythical "right" to shoot anyone within 21 feet. This drill was developed ONLY for training uniformed patrol officers. The point he used it to drive home was simply that, if a potentially armed suspect is within 21 feet, you (the officer) are already behind the curve, so do SOMETHING to get back ahead of the curve. Put your hand on your weapon and release the retention device. Maybe draw the weapon and hold it at low ready. Maybe take a couple of steps back or sideways. but DO SOMETHING.

The Tueller drill had nothing to do with non-LEO (or even LEO) concealed carry, and since the time for a concealed carrier to draw and fire may be longer, the 21 feet may not be far enough. In fact, when the drill was designed Tueller's department used level 2 retention holsters. He himself has said that, because it takes more time to draw from a level 3 retention holster, the 21 foot distance is no longer adequate.

But the real reason he is upset about the way his drill has been perverted is that so many people (and instructors) have promoted it as a hard-and-fast "rule" that anyone within 21 feet is a fair target. And that wasn't what he intended to convey at all. All the Tueller Drill was intended to do was make officers aware of threat potential within the time they need to react to an attack.

Daugherty16
March 2, 2011, 01:40 PM
Aguila's point should be reiterated. There is no license to shoot.

However, to add to what he said, it would be another factor in the "reasonable man" analysis that a DA, or a jury, would go through in evaluating whether a shoot was justified. A knife-wielding actor, from a distance of 21 feet or so, is generally considered as having the opportunity to cause grievous bodily injury or death.

His presence with a knife says nothing about intent or ability, both of which are evaluated on their own merits.