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pabuckslayer08
February 11, 2011, 10:01 PM
Just watched another episode of a Rem 700 misfiring when the safety is taken off and killing a child. Its was on the news at that, should I be worried with any of mine with factory triggers or just go get aftermarket triggers put into the ones that already arnt done. Really never bothered me till I seen this news cast and the small child killed over the deal.

neoexodus
February 11, 2011, 10:10 PM
Never point the rifle at something you don't want a new hole in... That said, I've had no problems with my LTR.

Gunplummer
February 11, 2011, 10:23 PM
I agree. Had one go off due to ice when unloading. Was not a Remington but still had it pointed in a safe direction.

deadeye1122
February 11, 2011, 11:34 PM
If you are responsible in handling firearms the trigger should not make a difference.

20thru45
February 12, 2011, 02:13 AM
I load and unload my model 700 every day. When I walk out the door first a.m. I chamber a round. I do some chores and come back in but, at the threshold I point the rifle at the yard, flick off the safety, and un-chamber the round. Sometimes I try to trick the sear before I switch off the safety to see if mine will do what other 700s have.

At almost all times you shouldn't feel too bad about what your bullet strikes when the gun accidentally discharges. Never more so than when you chamber, un-chamber or manipulate the safety. Guns can and do accidentally discharge so always the muzzle of a firearm should be pointed at what you'd least mind to shoot.

pabuckslayer08
February 12, 2011, 09:11 AM
Yea I know what you mean but still even if it doesnt hurt anyone why would I want my gun discharging when I take the safety off. Its really important with safety but my point was what if im sitting in my stand and see a deer coming in an take the safety off and boom. Bullet goes buzzing 20 feet over the deer

jmr40
February 12, 2011, 09:15 AM
A misfire is when you pull the trigger and the gun does not fire. An accidental discharge is when the gun fires when you don't want it to.

Remingtons have been doing this for decades and the problem is well documented. If your rifle was made in 2007 or later it has the re-desinged trigger and should be safe. If your rifle was made in 1982 or later the bolt can be opened while the safety is in the "SAFE" position and an accidental discharge is greatly reduced.

If your rifle was made prior to 1982 and you must move the safety to the "FIRE" position in order to unload the rifle it could discharge. Even then according to reliable estimates 99% of all Remingtons made will never do this. But with over 5,000,000 model 700's made that means 50,000 rifles with the potential to do this.

I own one of the 50,000 and it has dropped the firing pin a few times when the safety was moved. Fortunately it was unloaded each time. I've since retired the rifle.

For you guys that seem to think it is OK for a rifle to fire when the trigger is not pulled as long as it is pointed in a safe direction I have a question. Which is safer? In the air where you have no control over where the bullet may come down, or in the ground where it could fragment or ricochet and hit bystanders. I'd rather use a gun that only fires when I want it to and only when pointed at a safe backstop.

gaseousclay
February 12, 2011, 09:23 AM
For you guys that seem to think it is OK for a rifle to fire when the trigger is not pulled as long as it is pointed in a safe direction I have a question. Which is safer? In the air where you have no control over where the bullet may come down, or in the ground where it could fragment or ricochet and hit bystanders. I'd rather use a gun that only fires when I want it to and only when pointed at a safe backstop.

+1

i've never quite understood some of the responses i've come across defending the accidental discharges on Remington rifles. I would agree that discharges can and will happen with almost any brand, but when it's well documented that quite a few Remington rifles are prone to this boggles my mind. throwing out statistical data and safety rules don't really cut it for me. unless you've had the trigger completely replaced by a skilled gunsmith i'd say you have no business walking around with a rifle that's a potential disaster waiting to happen. just my two cents

natman
February 12, 2011, 10:10 AM
Let’s take a look at some of the objections:

"It’s an anti-gun conspiracy / CNBC is biased."

Yes, CNBC is biased, and their story contains slanted perspectives and misleading information. What did you expect? However, just because the presentation is biased doesn’t necessarily mean that the core issue isn’t true.

"It must be caused by people fiddling with their trigger adjustments."

No doubt some of the problems are indeed due to improper adjustments. However there are lots of rifles that have adjustable triggers that don’t have anywhere near as many complaints. Something else is going on.

So let's take a look at what it is:

Here's the Remington 700 trigger cocked:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e166/nat_mann/REMINGTONtriggernamed1.jpg

The Remington 700 trigger is a bit unusual in that it uses an extra piece, the trigger connector, to refine the trigger pull. The tiny red area is the engagement between the connector and the sear.

When the trigger is pulled, the connector goes forward and returns to this position:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e166/nat_mann/REMINGTONtriggernamed2.jpg
For this trigger to operate safely it is essential that when the rifle is cocked the trigger connector return 100% to the proper position, pushed there by only the light weight trigger spring.

See the red area between the trigger shoe and the trigger connector when the rifle is uncocked? That's the problem area. Any tiny speck of dirt, rust, ice or other material that gets in there will prevent the connector from engaging the sear properly. This can result in the safety keeping the sear from falling instead of the trigger connector. When the safety is released, the gun fires.

With all this in mind, let's take a look at a couple more objections:

“I’ve owned a Remington 700 for forty years and fired thousands of rounds and never had a problem.”

Good for you. This problem doesn’t happen very often, simply because it’s fairly difficult for stuff to work its way into the proper area of the trigger. But this is not a question of a few defective guns; it’s a design weakness that could affect any of the millions of guns with this trigger. If you haven’t had a problem, it’s because nothing has worked its way into your trigger.

Yet.

"This only happens on dirty or neglected guns."

This is more likely to happen on a dirty or neglected gun. However, a grass seed or a bit of pine needle could make this happen on an otherwise pristine gun.

"There wouldn't be any problem if they followed The Rules of Gun Safety."

True enough. You should always treat your gun as though it could go off at any moment. That doesn't excuse making a rifle that actually does it.

redrick
February 12, 2011, 10:10 AM
+2

There is a good thread running @ thehighroads on this. The OP sent his 700 back to Remington and they replaced the trigger group for $35. It was returned to him in less than 30 days.

Gunplummer
February 12, 2011, 10:50 AM
I never implied it was O.K. to continue using a malfunctioning gun. My point is the people that want to sue Remington over accidents that were their own fault. This past year I was driving down a back road and saw a "Grown-Up" and a kid taking a break from small game hunting and standing near the road. The man had the barrel of the shotgun on the top of his shoe and was leaning on the stock as if it were a fence post. If the gun went off, do you sue the gun maker? Accidents will happen and most will be negligence, but maybe people should own up to their actions.

pabuckslayer08
February 12, 2011, 11:18 AM
Thanks for the diagram, like I said ive never had any issue and both of mine im worried about are a 03 model ADL and 06 Model CDL. The others have all had new triggers put into them. Yes they both can have the ammo removed from the chamber with the safety on which I like but still what im worried about is the hunting elements where you pull up on a big buck and flip the safe off and boom. Nobody is hurt but your now scared to death and you missed. Seems like a pretty bad deal to me.

20thru45
February 12, 2011, 11:36 AM
Natman,

Thank you for the informational post. This morning before I read your post I went through my normal morning routine. When i flicked my safety off I braced for a shot even though my 700 has never done this in thousands of instances. Now after a more thorough understanding of the mechanics of the problem I also realize I've ignored my intuition. That's never a good thing.

I've been loath to mess with my 700 in any way since it consistently hits what I want it to but, I think I'll order a Timney or some other aftermarket trigger and eliminate a weakness in this rifle's design.

Thanks again for such a thoughtful post about this problem.

Joe D.

ps its coyotes I'm after in the morning

YARDDOG(1)
February 12, 2011, 01:18 PM
"[Thanks for the diagram, like I said ive never had any issue and both of mine im worried about are a 03 model ADL and 06 Model CDL. The others have all had new triggers put into them. Yes they both can have the ammo removed from the chamber with the safety on which I like but still what im worried about is the hunting elements where you pull up on a big buck and flip the safe off and boom. Nobody is hurt but your now scared to death and you missed. Seems like a pretty bad deal to me.]"

I'm A tree stand hunter, When I see a buck my gun gose to natural position,
shoulderd & cross hairs on deer , Then the safty comes off and trigger gets pulled ; )
Y/D

pabuckslayer08
February 12, 2011, 01:41 PM
Still even if your pointed at the deer it makes no sense to me, you still dont want the rifle to fire. A gun is supposed to fire upon pulling the trigger not flipping the safety off.

dgludwig
February 12, 2011, 01:53 PM
pabuckslayer08's statement is about as succinct and irrefutable as you can phrase it. The apologists for a possibly dangerous trigger design should stop using safety rules as cover and concede that no sporting firearm should ever fire when the trigger isn't being pulled. PERIOD!

Ozzieman
February 12, 2011, 02:58 PM
stop using safety rules as cover and concede that no sporting firearm should ever fire when the trigger isn't being pulled. PERIOD!

I totally agree with that statement.
But at the same time the person behind the gun is JUST as responsible for where the bullet goes no matter if it’s accidental or design.
In court cases like these the only people that make out are the lawyers.
In the paper today, a man lost a case against a tobacco company for 10 BILLION dollars because he has cancer and other health related issues. This is what lawyers are turning this country into.

Willie D
February 12, 2011, 03:33 PM
I don't get the knee jerk defense of Remington either, even if you love their guns. You can blame the victim for poor muzzle discipline but in most cases they'd still be alive if the gun didn't have that particular fault. The older triggers could malfunction, Remington knew they could malfunction and chose not to fix it.


From the movie Fight Club:

Take the number of vehicles in the field: A
multiply it by the probable rate of failure: B
then multiply the result by the average out of court settlement: C

A times B times C = X

If X is less than the cost of a recall - we dont do one.

ethan95
February 12, 2011, 03:38 PM
All thought the chances are very remote, it does occur in the older models. If your concerned about it, you can always have a new trigger assembly installed. How ever, many of these deaths could have been prevented by observing the rules to firearm handling. That doesn't make it alright for a gun manufacturer to make a "defective" product but those rules should be observed at all times regardless of the situation. I'm perfectly happy with my 2010 R700 and i feel as though it is a very safe fire arm. Fact is, guns are mechanical and mechanical devices do malfunction. All firearms should always be handled in a very safe manner. I'm still disappointed in the way that Remington choose to handle the situation. There is undoubtedly fault with the triggers, and they failed to fix it.

dgludwig
February 12, 2011, 04:42 PM
How ever, many of these deaths could have been prevented by observing the rules to firearm handling.

Yes, yes and yes. But adhering to the basic rules of safety should go without saying. Who of us would put up with a rifle that fired when the safety (not the trigger) was moved? Really, would anybody accept such a firearm for even one moment? Of course all firearms should be pointed in a safe direction at all times. Nobody is disputing this basic firearm safety protocol axiom. But, again, who among us would find a firearm discharging without the trigger being touched (assuming this is the case, if nothing more than for the sake of arguing) tolerable? Anybody?

YARDDOG(1)
February 12, 2011, 05:21 PM
"[stop using safety rules as cover and concede that no sporting firearm should ever fire when the trigger isn't being pulled. PERIOD!]"

I Have a OLDER MDL, Mine never went of & I'm not going to stop using my gun ;) I follow the rules & if it happens to go off (Nobody) will get hurt.

I don't put a round in my chamber till seated in stand. I harvested (4) deer this year whith my 700. When I came down the tree the spent casing is still in the rifle ; ) I always carry a sidearm
Y/D

dgludwig
February 12, 2011, 05:38 PM
Well, good for you, YARDDOG(1). Your situation is obviously different apparently from that that a few others have reportedly experienced. The question remains: Would you continue to use any firearm that you determined fired by moving the safety and not touching the trigger?

pabuckslayer08
February 12, 2011, 06:43 PM
I dont care how safe you are or if someone is hurt, the point is that the rifle is going off without the trigger being pulled and it isnt right wether someone is wounded or not. Say your Toyota gas pedal sticks would you just stop and say, wow close call and keep driving or take it to be looked at

hooligan1
February 12, 2011, 06:55 PM
Did you say it was a Remington? Dang, never heard of this problem with the other big rifle manufactures. it's sad... period.:(

pabuckslayer08
February 12, 2011, 07:18 PM
Yea haha. Thing is during the news cast report they brought in to interview the original creator of the 700 and he knew of the issue and agrees something should be done but remington fails to agree. Also the creator had another safety option that would have cost 6 cents to add in per rifle while produced they failed to put in, and now to recall them all it would break the company.

-Fluffy-
February 13, 2011, 05:20 PM
I watched the show the other night too, have looked into the potential issue, and read articles from both sides of the debate. Overall, I think that there is a possible issue with the trigger design, and think that Remington knows it all too well. While safe handling of firearms can never be stressed enough, having one on the market that is hazardous to operate (even properly) is an even bigger issue, and should be addressed by the manufacturer.

All in all, I've seen what I need to see, read what I need to read, and will likely never purchase a Remington product in my lifetime. There's tons of other rifles on the market that shoot just as well (if not better), and are in the same pricing category. I doubt I'll really be "missing out" on anything special.

warbirdlover
February 14, 2011, 12:09 AM
This is the new trigger.

http://www.remington.com/sitecore/content/Remington/pages/xmark-pro-trigger.aspx

I believe (don't quote me on this) that it doesn't have the connector. I just bought a SPS Buckmasters with this trigger. Mine is externally adjustable and you can get it down to 3-1/2 lbs. like it says. Mine seems to work fine but I've heard stories of the new triggers having problems? Does anyone know for sure?

And on the Remington site it has a video on how to adjust the trigger which in the last month has been removed from their website. All the gun dealers say Remington is now saying that adjusting the ("adjustable?") trigger voids the warranty. All kinds of conflicting information flying around.