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Harry Callahan
February 8, 2011, 10:35 AM
All,

At the gun club I frequent I always see the beautiful Italian shotguns costing several thousand dollars. I'm not good enough(yet?)to justify spending that kind of scratch on a shotgun but did score a Remington 1100 Tactical 22" barrel, extended tube, primarily for HD. Came with 3 chokes. I was wondering if some would consider it somehow less than honorable if I managed to do well in a match while using this shotgun to shoot trap? On a side note I already own an 1100 30" Trap model and do very well with it but my son does even better with it(73/75)last time out with 50 straight, so he uses it more than me.

oneounceload
February 8, 2011, 10:39 AM
You might want to check with your club regarding the barrel length - many places do not allow short barrels because of the noise. If not an issue, shoot what you have

gregjc9
February 8, 2011, 11:08 AM
I'm not a trap snob, but I have shot a few rounds. As mentioned, if there are no rules against, use it and have a good time. I have a friend that regularily uses his Rem 870 with 18" barrel (IIRC), and does quite well with it.

zippy13
February 8, 2011, 11:15 AM
Honor and/or snobbery have nothing to do with gun selection, it's all about proficiency. When your gun is the limiting factor in your performance, then it's time to shoot a gun more attuned to your abilities. I am by no means a trap shooter, yet I did shoot a few years of ATA trap to sharpen my skills. I started out with a Remington 1100 Trap model, like yours; but, exchanged it for an Italian combo before I'd completed my rookie year of competition. Several years earlier, I started NSSA competition with an entry level Japanese O/U skeet gun. I was good enough to get in Class-AA, but inconsistent. One of those beautiful Italian guns took my scores from 97s and 98s to 100-straights and into Triple-A from time to time. I haven't shot enough trap to find the B-gun a limiting factor in my performance.

Back to your 22" tactical barreled Remington 1100. I'm sure the trap shooters at your club would be happy to see you join in the competition* especially if you wanted to play all the purses and options.

*unless there's a club minimum barrel length. Some folks find the tactical guns on the loud side.

bailey bud
February 8, 2011, 11:21 AM
I checked the ATA's rules - and there's nothing in the rules that would preclude the use of your shotgun. I would not expect a tactical shotgun to perform that well at the trap range. A short barrel like that would tend to create a wider spread than you'd want with trap.

As long as you're safe - I don't think anyone will fuss. (no loading the magazine - 1 target = 1 shot in the chamber - unless you're shooting doubles)

I learned to shoot trap at the local Izaak Walton league - using a hand-me-down Winchester 1912 - and nobody seemed to mind. (my shoulder minded!)

My squad leader had a nice $2500 Browning over/under. He let me try it a couple of times - but the Winchester fit me better, anyway.

I look forward to trying out my most recent acquisition: A Beretta A302

Harry Callahan
February 8, 2011, 11:39 AM
zippy13,

Thanks for your response. However, there is no way I would consider getting in to a serious competition with a shotgun like a 22" Remington 1100. Just didn't want to be passing a shotgun back and forth between me and my son on the line. Gotta shoot something, right?

zippy13
February 8, 2011, 12:06 PM
For your intended use, the 1100's should work just fine. If you and your son starting shooting a lot more trap, you might consider another trap barrel and monte carlo stock for the tactical gun. That way, you can have a stock fitted to each shooter.

One aspect of target shooting that isn't discussed enough is reloading. You can bet those good ol' boys who are shooting at the range almost every day are generally reloaders. And, most reloaders find shooting with a hinge gun much easier in the ammo department -- no unsuspected jambs and no bending over to pick up hulls. The lady who owns a local restaurant is an avid 12-ga trap and 5-stand shooter, but she's never reloaded. At lunch yesterday, she was excited and told me she'd just acquired a new Browning 20/28-ga combo. She loves shooting the 28-ga, but hates the high ammo price. She admitted that after shooting only new 12-ga shells for years, she gonna get a MEC.

jna142
February 8, 2011, 12:24 PM
I agree that you schould shoot what you have. Ive been around trap shooters for years and it seems they all have $10,000 guns. The funny thing is that i bought an old LEVER action 12 ga at a pawn shop and shot a 98 out of a hundred and got disqualified cause of the barrle lenght. I think it was because the other shooters where emberassed cause they got beat buy a guy with a $100 dollar gun. Ha,ha ha ha ha.

Mike Irwin
February 8, 2011, 12:44 PM
Over the years I've ticked off some serious clay sport snobs by doing VERY well with either a pump gun or a run of the mill Remington semi-auto.

The BIG howls were reserved for when I'd pull out a 20" barreled Winchester pump gun. It was my standing corn pheasant gun. Had one guy tell me it shouldn't be allowed.

I told him he was just ****** because I'd done better with it than he had with his expensive Browning double and that he shouldn't be such a schmuck.

Things went downhill quickly after that. :D

zippy13
February 8, 2011, 01:05 PM
The BIG howls were reserved for when I'd pull out a 20" barreled Winchester pump gun. It was my standing corn pheasant gun. Had one guy tell me it shouldn't be allowed.
Of course, nobody would have said squat had your Winchester pump been a M-12 pigeon grade trap gun.

bailey bud
February 8, 2011, 01:59 PM
Browning 20/28-ga combo

That is covered by the ATA rules --- it's not allowed in an ATA-sanctioned shoot.

I don't see anything in the ATA rules about minimum barrel length.

mwar410
February 8, 2011, 02:56 PM
just make sure you bounce a few of those empty hulls off their heads and they won't be snobby about your barrel length.

Technosavant
February 8, 2011, 03:06 PM
I've used tactical guns for skeet. Yeah, you get some strange looks from some and some friendly banter from others, but so long as the club allows it and you follow the rules, there's usually no issues.

As said, though, they're fine for using to get into it, but if you shoot much at all you are likely to outgrow it pretty quickly.

rottieman33
February 8, 2011, 03:39 PM
Last year a guy beside me had a $7000 trap gun I was using my Mossberg 500 he got ****** cause i did better then him. I has happy as a pig in **** cause i did better. this year going to try my Saiga 12(looks like a AK-47) to do trap bet you i will get some looks with that. but i am there just to have fun. I look at it this way I am there to have fun if a person doesn't like what I am shooting and not breaking any rules or laws they can leave

zippy13
February 8, 2011, 04:15 PM
Browning 20/28-ga combo
That is covered by the ATA rules --- it's not allowed in an ATA-sanctioned shoot.

I don't see anything in the ATA rules about minimum barrel length.


The ATA rules state (Section XIII, Part G.1 Guns and Ammunition): A contestant may not use a gun capable of chambering more than one gauge of shells at the same time. For example, chambering 12 gauge and 20 gauge shells in the same gun at the same time is prohibited. The NSSA and NSCA have a similar rule. The rules even prevent you from having another gauge shell on your person.

The combo gun in question is an O/U with a set of 20-ga barrels and a set of 28-ga barrels. Perhaps you were thinking of a barrel set with two different gauges. I don't believe such a beast is being manufactured for obvious safety reasons. Sorry for any confusion, but Browning calls the 20/28-ga two barrel set a combo in their catalog. Another typical combo set up is a 12-ga trap gun with a long solo barrel for singles and handicap and a shorter O/U set for doubles. My go-to trap gun is configured in that manner.

Short barrel restrictions are usually local club policy. I've never noticed a minimum barrel length in the NSSA Skeet nor ATA Trap rules. It's not necessary, if you're shooting national registered targets you're not going to handicap yourself using a short barrel. Of course, if a physical disability requires you to shoot a short barrel, I'm sure nobody will complain.

Although no dual gage barrel sets are manufactured. The problem of lodging a 20-ga shell in a 12-ga barrel is real. With the proliferation of shotgun barrel tubes, it's very possible for the tube gun shooter to configure his gun in 2 gauges. Without the safety rule, there will always be someone who thinks it would be swell to use a 20-ga for his first target in doubles followed by a 12-ga second shot.

Technosavant
February 8, 2011, 04:28 PM
this year going to try my Saiga 12(looks like a AK-47) to do trap bet you i will get some looks with that. but i am there just to have fun.

I like to use mine for skeet every now and then, and that's when I get the most looks (especially with the Kobra optic on it). Problem is, if you've done the stock/PG conversion to the thing a cheek weld can be hard to keep consistent and the rifle sights screw you right up.

But yeah, it IS fun. :D

Jimbo-Indy
February 8, 2011, 04:43 PM
Maybe you need a new club, if they harass you for your choice of guns. My club could care less what you shoot, as long as it is safe. Large signs proclaim "ATA Rules Govern". We have several shooting common field grade guns and nobody cares. I shoot a Stouger O/U and nobody comments. Once, I had a small mechanical problem. Another member handed me his $10k Parrazi to finish the round (we are about the same size). Sweet gun once you get used to it but I'll continue on with the Stouger as I can't afford any more $ right now. It's more the shooter that the gun until you get way up in the skill level.

dakotashooter2
February 8, 2011, 05:08 PM
I checked the ATA's rules - and there's nothing in the rules that would preclude the use of your shotgun. I would not expect a tactical shotgun to perform that well at the trap range. A short barrel like that would tend to create a wider spread than you'd want with trap.


SERRIOUSLY????????????? If the gun has choke tubes, a skeet (or whatever) tube is gonna throw the same pattern whether it is a 20" barrel or a 28" barrel.

Note: there are "snobs" in every sport. While quality equipment can make a difference most of the time its 95% increase in cost will only gain you 1% in performance. If a gun fits you and functions propertly as long as you do your job you will shoot well, whether it is a $500 gun or a $100,000 gun. The snobs just don't like to face the fact that it is them and not the equipment that is the problem......................:D

bailey bud
February 8, 2011, 05:39 PM
Zippy - brain fart on my part...... mea culpa.

Yup -- that 20/12 ga combo has likely blown up its fair share of firearms.

zippy13
February 8, 2011, 05:44 PM
It's my understanding that most of the short HD barrels have fixed cyl chokes. They are dyn-o-mite on Skeet targets but hard pressed are anything much further. I recall when a newby was blaming all of his missed Skeet targets on his HD gun. The guy was whining more than a freshly weaned puppy. For the next round, our club president got a surplus riot gun from his truck and ran the next 25 targets. Just because he could shoot the short barrel, it wasn't his choice when the score counted.Note: there are "snobs" in every sport. While quality equipment can make a difference most of the time its 95% increase in cost will only gain you 1% in performance.In a tournament that 1% is the difference between a 100-straight and a 99. Do you wanna be the champ or a chump?

shogan191
February 8, 2011, 05:46 PM
With the loss of clubs of late and the need for new shooter, I don't imagine anyone with any sense would care what you shot as long as it was legal and within club and ATA rules.

If you got it and like it, shoot it.

oneounceload
February 8, 2011, 05:48 PM
The short barrel has nothing to do with the pattern, but it does hamper good swings on the targets

zippy13
February 8, 2011, 05:58 PM
Maybe you need a new club, if they harass you for your choice of guns. My club could care less what you shoot, as long as it is safe.
Often the club noise restrictions are due to outside pressures. The club I shot at while in college was out past the edge of town, now it's surrounded by homes. Now, if there's any shooting one minute after 10:00 pm or a minute before 8:00 am, rest assured someone will call the sheriff. The new neighbors would love to force the range to go away.

Gehrhard
February 9, 2011, 08:53 PM
There is a certain level of decorum expected on a Trap Line. I mean specifically in a league. At a country club. In a match. With a club.

And some of the best shooting I've done when not using one of my work-of-art Miroku's (I have a 34" single and a 30" doubles O/U) or a laminated nickel-steel Browning BT-99 Special have been with a Mossberg 500 (with which I made Distinguished Expert), a Mossberg 590 Military & Police, and an HK/Benelli pistol-grip semi-auto.

Understand the situation, take the good-natured ribbing as well as not-so-good whispers, and make the most of it!

Gehr

oneounceload
February 9, 2011, 09:05 PM
Zippy made an excellent point which has been mentioned before - my local club is in the same scenario -NO shooting before 8:30, or after 5:00 - nada, zip, nil

and short barrels, while not exactly verboten, are frowned upon because of the noise issue

seansean1444
February 9, 2011, 11:15 PM
use what ya can hit the things with and call it good

Rugerismisticness
February 10, 2011, 05:01 AM
Use the Remington 1100 trap model, for trap ofcoarse. Beretta 3901/391s aren't that expensive, good investment.

olddrum1
February 12, 2011, 07:02 PM
Why not just shoot different squads? As good as your son is, I would say he has a need for his own trap gun.

poortrader
February 13, 2011, 10:25 PM
This is a prefect topic especially after my trap shooting experience today. I have a Winchester SX3 semi-auto which I use for a couple of other games except for trap. I didn't not know that the shells were ejecting about 10 feet to my right because in the other games that I shoot, I don't have anyone standing to the right of the ejection port. So I keep hitting the shooter to my right and I started to noticed that he would always stand back until I finished shooting. After the line was finished, one of the guy to my right's buddy came up to me with a couple of rubber bands. He said that if I cover the ejection port, my shells wouldn't pelt the shooter to the right. I thought that this was great from a safety standpoint especially because I am new to trap.

After he put the rubber band over the ejection port, he made a comment about how shooters out there had expensive shotguns. So, that comment really annoyed me.

Would the guy that made the comment fit into your Trap Snob category??

LSnSC
February 13, 2011, 10:53 PM
Its not being snobish, its simply etiquette, and it makes the experience more enjoyable for all involved. It is poor etiquette to be bouncing hulls off your squadmate and his gun, requardless of the cost. You obviously didnt know, now you do.

TheKlawMan
February 13, 2011, 11:31 PM
The offering the rubber bands was fine, the comment about the shooters having expensive guns was snobbish.

Dave McC
February 14, 2011, 12:24 AM
I don't see that comment as snobbish, much more likely he had a gun that he didn't want hulls bouncing off of.

And I've done the same.

rottieman33
February 14, 2011, 01:45 AM
The guy to his right should of just cought the hulls for him.:)

TheKlawMan
February 14, 2011, 02:06 AM
I hadn't thought the hulls might scratch the finish of some nice guns.

zippy13
February 14, 2011, 03:31 AM
After he put the rubber band over the ejection port, he made a comment about how shooters out there had expensive shotguns. So, that comment really annoyed me.

Would the guy that made the comment fit into your Trap Snob category??
It wasn't snobbery on his part; but, ignorance on yours. He was pointing out that your were lucky to have him next to you -- someone else (with an expensive gun) might be asking you to pay for a stock refinishing. Shooting an auto-loader that ejects shells at another squad member is inexcusable. Instead of having a meaningful round of practice, you totally interrupted his routine by causing him to dodge your hot shells instead of concentrating on his game. Unfortunately, your breech of etiquette may have marked you as someone to be avoided.

Gun clubs typically operate their trap ranges under ATA safety rules. They include:All guns used by contestants must be equipped, fitted and utilized so as not to eject empty shells in a manner that substantially disturbs or interferes with other contestants. The next time you're out at the range, you might consider apologizing to the guy and plead ignorance. Buying him lunch might make up for ruining his round.

poortrader
February 14, 2011, 07:41 AM
This was my 3rd time shooting trap. The first time was at a club that I belong to. This time was at a different club.

This time, I shot 2 lines. During the first line, no one made any comments nor suggestions. Yes, I was ignorant to the issue of the excessive flying shells, and the shooter pointed out the issue, but it was until after my second line that the suggestion and comment was made. I didn't shoot anymore after the second line. If I had shot a 3rd line, and didnt heed to the suggestion, then I'm the offender.

Personnally, I'll pass on buying the guy lunch. I might have bought him lunch if he didn't make the comment on the expensive gun. Obviously, he can afford to spend an overly extreme amount of money on his gun so he can buy his own lunch.

oneounceload
February 14, 2011, 09:47 AM
There are several companies that make shell catchers to avoid your scenario. Empties flying through the air can do damage to stock finishes as mentioned, but no one likes to get pelted with empties. I had someone shooting an AR at the range one time - brass flying right at my face. Young kid having fun, but paying no attention to the fact what he was doing. His buddy noticed though. I had him switch shooting benches - that was my polite way of handling that annoyance. Your friend with the rubber bands was doing the same thing - giving you some polite and quiet advice on protocol. No need to be mad about it - learn from it

Dave McC
February 14, 2011, 12:03 PM
Actually, poortrader, that guy might have saved you a buttkicking. That's an extreme case, but has been known to happen.

None of my shotguns have gold ducks on them or cost well into five figures, but anyone repeatedly bouncing hulls off them or me doth rouse my ire. I've carried rubber bands in my range box for just those occasions.

Besides the bands, some folks with 1100s and similar have two small holes drilled into the barrel extension and a small horseshoe shaped wire inserted. It directs the hulls more or less down, thus solving the problem without impeding function.

I shot Beretta's answer to this problem yesterday. The UGB is a break action semi auto with a two shot capacity and downward ejection. Strictly for targets, it's a signpost of just how serious the problem is to some folks.

And for the record, there's few snobs in Trap. Lots of onery, opinionated folks, but a polite newbie with an old field gun gets accepted pretty fast.

BigJimP
February 14, 2011, 01:49 PM
Like all pasttimes ....the clay target games / have some rules and a certain amount of etiquette ....and you are wise to follow both....if you want to be welcome into a sqaud on a Trap, Skeet or Sporting Clays field ...

To the OP's original question ...is it dishonerable to shoot a Defensive or Field Gun - in Trap ....no. And it won't matter if you shoot it well or not ...

Shooting casually, at a local club is one thing .... you see all kinds of guns, guns that won't cycle, new shooters not really familiar with how to load their guns, poor fundamentals ....and as long as everyone is showing safe gun handling / having a good time ....few shooters, if anyone, cares. Most of us, as experienced shooters understand people have to learn / the squad might be a little slower / there might be some disruption ....its just part of shooting with "new shooters". Safety - is the only thing that matters !

In a Registered Trap Competition ...its different ...and most guys that want to shoot Trap seriously ...want to be on a squad with serious competitive shooters. They enjoy the rhythum of each shooter / the time they take between shots, the fact that their equipment is ready, they don't talk between shots, they stay rock steady when people beside them on the next station are shooting....etc ... To be on a "good experienced squad" is really important to how your shooting goes in a tournament. They will have their squads "pre-set" -- so they know the other 4 guys shooting with them. Even if they go to a registered shoot alone ....they want to squad with 4 other experienced shooters ...that they're comfortable with. But that's in a tournament situation - where one miss ....might be the end of your day.

Casual shooting at a club is different. Any new shooter --- that shows decent manners, respect for the rules of the game ....and respect for the other shooters on the squad ....will always be welcome on my squad / at least on casual days at the club. If we're just hanging out / practicing / having some fun ...we will always welcome a new shooter ...to the squad. Do I want spent shells bouncing off my gun, my back, my legs, etc ....No ....I don't. Nor do I want to shoot next to someone with an 18" barrel especially in a Trap Squad ....because I'm standing right next to the muzzle blast ....as they turn on an angled target....and that is way less than pleasant. So many clubs have minimum barrel lengths for Trap shooting ( like 26" ) ...so the other shooters are not disrupted. If a newbie is shooting a semi-auto and we only have 4 shooters total ...we'll leave the slot to his right empty ....so his flying hulls won't be an issue for anyone else. But like others said ---....ask if anyone minds if he's shooting a semi-auto / or use a rubber band to snag the spent hull.

If you're a newbie( or visiting any club for the first time ) ....show a little class ...be polite, talk to the squad leader before you go out to the field, introduce yourself, tell them you're new to all this, or that you have some experience, etc ... Tell them thanks / nice to meet them, nice shooting with them.. when you finish ....just common sense stuff....

If you do that - my hunch is you'll be welcome back to the squad again and again ....

Some of the rudest guys at my club ....are experienced shooters ...that are constantly running their mouths about how good they are, giving unsolicited advice to shooters, etc ...they may be good shooters / but I don't want they anywhere near my squad ....so none of this is how new you are, how well you shoot ....its how you behave !!

oneounceload
February 14, 2011, 02:01 PM
some folks with 1100s and similar have two small holes drilled into the barrel extension and a small horseshoe shaped wire inserted.

There is also the T&S shell catcher - been around eons and just snaps onto the gun so you can take it off if need be without any hassle - they run about $9

zippy13
February 14, 2011, 02:15 PM
Besides the bands, some folks with 1100s and similar have two small holes drilled into the barrel extension and a small horseshoe shaped wire inserted. It directs the hulls more or less down, thus solving the problem without impeding function.FYI, new shooters: the R-1100 Trap model's barrel has a small stud in the tang that has the same function. I still use a shell catcher 'cause I want my hulls for reloading.

Another way to annoy other shooters is to delay the club's progress by harvesting your grounded hulls between rounds. The practice is prohibited at some clubs.