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Splitear_Leland
February 6, 2011, 08:35 PM
I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I am curious what the overall feeling is on this forum. When do you think it is okay to use deadly force. I am at a crossroads where I am trying to decide what I would do in self defense situation. If someone pulled a gun on you and told you to give them your wallet, would you pull. If you caught a burglar in you house and he was trying to escape, would you shoot. Those are the scenarios I have been thinking about recently, and right now my answer would be no, I would not shoot. I don't think that anything that I own is worth another man's life. However, if my or family's life were at stake, I would say yes, I would fire, but I think that I would regret it for the rest of my life. What are your thoughts?

Crazy88Fingers
February 6, 2011, 09:02 PM
When someone has the means to kill me, and shows the intent to do so, all is fair.

If someone already has a gun on me and demands my wallet, I'm not going to try to quick-draw on him. Besides, there's nothing valuable in my wallet anyway; joke's on him.

Also, here in Florida, if someone breaks into your home (or occupied vehicle), they are at your mercy. That being said, I would give a robber an opportunity to leave, if I can safely determine he is unarmed. If he doesn't immediately seize that opportunity, I'm not waiting to see what else he'll try. But I'll avoid killing someone over a broken door or window if that's all the harm that has been done.

Make sure you brush up on your state laws.

ekgandj
February 6, 2011, 09:20 PM
If I feel that my life, my families life's, or people around me lives are in danger.
If they turn to run, where are they going? Maybe to get backup, friends or gun, so I will shoot in back if they have started the sequences for me to feel justified in pulling my weapon.


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk

egor20
February 6, 2011, 09:27 PM
If some one has a gun pointed at me, he can have my wallet. He can pay the $1.50 in over due books at the library and he can have my old Blockbuster card, I never keep money in it anyway. My important stuff is in a different pocket, not in the wallet,.

Crazy88Fingers
February 6, 2011, 10:14 PM
Shooting someone in the back can easily take you across that fine line between self-defense and second-degree murder. In most states you're allowed to use the amount of force necessary to eliminate a threat. Once your attacker begins to flee, he is no longer a direct threat to you, and using deadly force at that point may be hard to justify.

highvel
February 6, 2011, 10:20 PM
I feel that the use of deadly is the most important decision a person will ever make in their entire life, and the outcome of that decision is final!
There are no "do overs" and you can not recall a bullet!

jhenry
February 6, 2011, 10:35 PM
In any US jurisdiction, the standard for the use of deadly force, that is force which a reasonable person understands can cause death and/or serious physical injury, is this:

The aggressor must have, or the victim must reasonably perceive the attacker to have, the MEANS/ABILITY to cause death and/or serious physical injury.

The aggressor must have the OPPORTUNITY to utilize the previously mentioned MEANS/ABILITY to cause death and/or serious physical injury, and

The aggressor must demonstrate the INTENT to utilize the previously mentioned MEANS/ABILITY to cause death and/or physical injury.

These three things are the standard. Once past that, the time to shoot really depends on the individual situation. One should also understand that we shoot to stop a threat, that is the purpose. Not to kill, although the death of the aggressor can be a result, and we need to be able to accept that possibility, we shoot to stop the threat.

glockcompact
February 6, 2011, 11:12 PM
Yea here's a current thread on this.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=438317

:)

markj
February 7, 2011, 04:28 PM
When do you think it is okay to use deadly force.

Take a class and get your answers there. The gun is and should be the last resort, when all other tactics fail and you will be harmed if you do not, then I would draw. First is get away from the threat, retreat to a safe place. Use the cell phone.

the permit doesnt make me a cop.

Have a friend hold a squirt gun on you make sure you have one too concealed of course, then try to out draw him as he holds you up. You will lose every time, we do this just to show how fast the gun can be used on you.

DonutGuy
February 7, 2011, 04:52 PM
here's a simpler response, deadly force is justified when there is an UNavoidable threat that will cause death or grave bodily harm to you or other innocent people. I say unavoidable because if you can avoid it but use deadly force then it probably won't be justified. In a self-defense situation, it is only when the aggressor uses or attempts to use deadly force that you have the right to respond with deadly force. I think thats correct.

GUNSITE
February 7, 2011, 04:59 PM
Speaking on a individual assessment.

The simplest answer is...When your in immediate fear of your life... Make sure your testimony can prove you were in fear of your life.

Always refer to your states Use Of Deadly Force Laws.

BGutzman
February 7, 2011, 05:44 PM
When the zombies death breath is on your face.... The zombies have you backed into a corner or other suitable place with no possible retreat, they have the intent and means to feast on you immediately and are acting to do so.

At that point I pull the holy water squirt gun and ............ spray!

JerryM
February 7, 2011, 05:46 PM
I agree with markj. I am a little surprised that someone who had taken a CC course from a competent instructor would have such a question.
However, it is better to ask than to wonder-too long.:)

Regards,
Jerry

Puntmefar
February 7, 2011, 06:02 PM
I got to say over a wallett I would not draw.....its just a wallett. However if I feel it will be my wallett and my life he's going to shoot me any way than im going for my gun if I get shot than it will not be without the effort to protect myself. In my home however its another matter if some one has broken into my home im not waiting to see if there armed im going to fire unless their running out the door. I have a wife and a three year old grandson to protect I will not gamble with their safty. All that being said I hope I never find the need to use deadly force and wish the same for all of you out there

OldMarksman
February 7, 2011, 06:52 PM
Posted by Splitear_Leland: If someone pulled a gun on you and told you to give them your wallet, would you pull.NO!

Not because I would not be justified, but because I think it would be extremely foolish.

Bill Jordan might have been able to do it, but I cannot, and Mas Ayoob would not recommend it.

If you caught a burglar in you house and he was trying to escape, would you shoot.NO!

Even in "castle doctrine" states such as Florida and Texas, the legal presumption that the fact of an unlawful entry into an occupied domicile provides the lawful occupant with reason to believe that he is in imminent danger is rebuttable; forensic evidence indicating that the intruder had been trying to escape would be damning.

Someone who would answer "yes" might be providing very damaging discoverable evidence relevant to state of mind, should he or she ever become involved in an ambiguous shooting.

Vanya
February 7, 2011, 07:10 PM
The simplest answer is...When your in immediate fear of your life... Make sure your testimony can prove you were in fear of your life.

There's a key word missing here: you must be reasonably in fear of your life: in other words, any reasonable person, in the same situation, would be in fear of his/her life.

Just because you're a scaredy-cat doesn't mean you're justified in pulling the trigger...

FireForged
February 7, 2011, 07:23 PM
You can google and read about "ability, opportunity and jeopardy". Its a old training tool but it does help understand some basic elements of self defense.

threegun
February 7, 2011, 08:04 PM
I agree with markj. I am a little surprised that someone who had taken a CC course from a competent instructor would have such a question.
However, it is better to ask than to wonder-too long.



I'm an NRA certified handgun instructor and I was instructed to NOT go into the legalities of when to shoot and justifications. I was instructed to instead suggest students review use of deadly force rules personally.

Perhaps this instructor is following NRA teaching as instructed LOL.

jimbob86
February 7, 2011, 08:25 PM
You can google and read about "ability, opportunity and jeopardy". Its a old training tool but it does help understand some basic elements of self defense.
__________________


In Nebraska, we don't have Castle doctrine (yet!), so we have to satisfy A,O, J andP .... there must be;

Ability (of the aggressor to cause death of great bodily harm)

Opportunity (of same)

Jeapordy (you or a dependant are in jeapordy of above)

Preclusion (You are precluded from doing anything else- inability to retreat, etc.

I'm an NRA certified handgun instructor and I was instructed to NOT go into the legalities of when to shoot and justifications. I was instructed to instead suggest students review use of deadly force rules personally.



Our Concealed Handgun Permit instructors must cover this in the curriculum....... probably why the NRA Basic Pistol Course does not qualify as sufficient training.....

Interestingly enough, though, there are a couple of exceptions to AOJP here: You are not required to retreat from your home or place of business .......... and deadly force is justified in preventing rape (of yourself or a third party).

Frank Ettin
February 7, 2011, 09:09 PM
Taking a class is an excellent idea. And here are some additional, excellent resources:

[1] This thread (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415672) started by Marty Hayes, member here and president of the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network.

[2] This website (http://www.useofforce.us/) provides an excellent overview of use of force law.

[3] And this website (http://www.corneredcat.com/) maintained by Kathy Jackson, an instructor at the Firearms Academy of Seattle and a moderator here (going by the screen name pax).

joegator
February 7, 2011, 09:48 PM
Would not shoot a burglar trying to flee even though Florida law would probably recognize my right to do so.

If someone pulls a gun and asks for my wallet probably not. It would really depend on the situation, i.e. was I alone or with family, was the robber alone or with a partner, was the robber calm or nervous, drugged out, etc. You have to make a life and death split second decision using your instincts and gut feeling. Each scenario is different, there is no rule that will always apply other than to take a course of action that will minimize harm to yourself and family.

oden
February 7, 2011, 10:11 PM
I have to think that if I give him my wallet he will shoot me any way.
I would toss the wallet just to the side ofhis off hand when he moves to pick it up Im going to try for it.

TO EACH HIS OWN

egor20
February 7, 2011, 10:14 PM
TO EACH HIS OWN

+1, this sums up the reason that TFL is here.

Skans
February 8, 2011, 09:17 AM
There is really no way to answer this question. Whether you attempt to access your gun and shoot someone is an equation made up of at least the following factors:

1. level of threat
2. ability to avoid threat
3. distance between you and threat
4. surprise element
5. your skill level
6. your carry method
7. innocent bystanders
8. ability to react in combat/high stress situations

Probably a bunch of others, each with varying degrees. Even if you tried to develop a sophisticated analytical program to predict when/when not to shoot, I'd bet that there are simply too many variables with too many varying degrees that it would make the resulting answer marginal at best. So, if I don't expect a supercomputer running sophisticated piece of software to answer this question, there ain't no way I've got the answer without being in the actual situation. Then I just hope my brain functions slightly better than some high-priced supercomputer.

sliponby
February 8, 2011, 09:22 AM
To this day I still remember a lesson taught to me years ago by an old Louisiana Cajun repair shop owner who demanded cash payment for repairing my flat tire and all I had was a check.

In his words, in a thick, Cajun accent "...boyah, you don't have no cash on you? You gonna make that robber mad and he shoot you.." He then reaches into his left front pocket, pulls out a wad of cash and says, "you show him your cash and you thro' it dis way, and you go dat way, and he leave you alone 'cause he gonna go after da cash, and dats what he wants".

To this day, I keep my cash in a money clip in left front pocket and either my G26 or occasionally my PM9 holstered in my right front pocket. Might not work in all situations but it may give you the opening you need...

Steviewonder1
February 8, 2011, 03:37 PM
I have read a lot of what Marty Hayes says and I believe that he speaks the right answers to this type of question. He is well respected on alot of these boards.

markj
February 8, 2011, 04:53 PM
I'm an NRA certified handgun instructor and I was instructed to NOT go into the legalities of when to shoot and justifications.

Class I took last month was also by a NRA certified instructor, he showed 2 or 3 short films and at the end asked what was wrong or right.

One was the drug store dude shot a guy in the head, chased the other out of the store and fired on his retreating self, then went back inside got a new gun and shot the down robber 5 times.

Not everything is cut and dried, cant tell from words on paper what is really going on in any situation.

The gun isnt the first thing to go to, if you have this in mind you will surely find yourself in a heap O trouble.

I would never ever ever shoot at someone that is retreating, or someone wants my cash. Heck I would give it to him and ask if he was hungrey lets go get a bite. Maybe all he needs is a helping hand up. Hopefully that is, if not well then take the cash and go have a good time. I can replace the cash a lot easier than I can replace me. My kids need me to pay for their stuff :) like college food cloths etc.

Rambo was a movie, a bad one at that...... none of it was real.....

threegun
February 8, 2011, 07:22 PM
Our Concealed Handgun Permit instructors must cover this in the curriculum....... probably why the NRA Basic Pistol Course does not qualify as sufficient training.....



Are the instructors in your area all judges or attorneys? Seems if I'm going to be giving out legal advice I should be trained in the field. Spent a full two days getting certified just to teach something as uncomplicated as safe gun handling and marksmanship skills. Couldn't imagine explaining law which my students will be using to base life changing decisions on.

threegun
February 8, 2011, 07:25 PM
I would never ever ever shoot at someone that is retreating, or someone wants my cash. Heck I would give it to him and ask if he was hungrey lets go get a bite. Maybe all he needs is a helping hand up. Hopefully that is, if not well then take the cash and go have a good time. I can replace the cash a lot easier than I can replace me. My kids need me to pay for their stuff like college food cloths etc.



This begs the question......Then why do you carry?

youngunz4life
February 8, 2011, 07:39 PM
markj, shooting someone in head(circumstances weren't explained), chasing and shooting someone multiple times retreating, going back, getting another weapon or relaoading and shooting someone 5 more times is a different situation. sorry to reference you(I read only the very beginning and very end postings so far).

answering the OP's original posting:

I wouldn't draw on someone who had his weapon on me unless I was positive I could successfully or if there was literally no other choice. people discuss the wrong time to draw and shoot a lot on this forum. Usually its the perception of 'in the law's eyes" and not when a BG can control your fate.

I wouldn't hesitate to take a life and/or shoot an attacker(s) if a 'true' situation happened to me and/or my family. I am not taking any chances, and in the 'true' situation I will have to think quick and squeak thru whatever doorway of opportunity I have. but this is just me, and I usually envision the encounter in my house and on my property defending my family. There is no getting around the fact thats different than a teenager asking me for my wallet in a walmart as some random example. If it happened quick and I thought he just needed some cash I am not going to shoot him, but again I am not going to draw on a person who has drawn on me unless I am positive I can successfully. I do agree that all bets are off when a firearm is pulled on me or my family. I will stop that if possible with deadly force if it goes that way. I am not looking to do something stupid with my firearm; I believe I will know the difference but its never happened so thats neither here nor there.

Frank Ettin
February 8, 2011, 08:06 PM
I'm an NRA certified handgun instructor and I was instructed to NOT go into the legalities of when to shoot and justifications....I'm NRA certified for Basic Handgun, Personal Protection Inside the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home.

The NRA syllabus for the Basic Handgun class calls for very little discussion of the law -- essentially just the local law related to buying, storing, owning and transporting a gun. The Personal Protection classes are intended to cover self defense law in some detail, but the NRA requires that the law portion be handled by an attorney, an LEO or a certified law enforcement instructor. Since I'm a lawyer, I will often handle the law portion for other instructors around here.

JerryM
February 8, 2011, 08:46 PM
NM requires that the course of instruction include the laws on the use of deadly force. The instructor I had explained the state law on the use of deadly force, and in addition discussed the "wisdom" of shooting under certain circumstances. The NRA safety course is not sufficient in NM.

Deadly force is to be used only if one fears death or great bodily harm. If someone demanded my wallet he could have it. It should be remembered that if you shoot someone it is just the beginning of expenses and emotional trauma.
If someone robs your home, and you see him as you arrive, consider that is why you have insurance. It will be cheaper and less stress to just let the insurance company pay the claim than to shoot and maybe be convicted of a crime because the DA does not believe that the criteria for the use of deadly force were satisfied. Same for seeing someone stealing your car.

In my view a course for CC that does not cover the law and discuss some likely circumstances is inadequate. Anyone who has taken the NM CC course should not have to ask the OP questions.

Regards,
Jerry

threegun
February 9, 2011, 07:24 AM
In my view a course for CC that does not cover the law and discuss some likely circumstances is inadequate. Anyone who has taken the NM CC course should not have to ask the OP questions.


Simply echoing the law and sighting a few clear cut cases of shoots and no shoots does a prepared CCW holder make. There are tons of gray area situations that simply cannot be addressed in a half day course. Fear levels differ from person to person so that alone makes for a wide rangeing interpretation of fear of death or grave bodily injury.

Deadly force is to be used only if one fears death or great bodily harm. If someone demanded my wallet he could have it. It should be remembered that if you shoot someone it is just the beginning of expenses and emotional trauma.
If someone robs your home, and you see him as you arrive, consider that is why you have insurance. It will be cheaper and less stress to just let the insurance company pay the claim than to shoot and maybe be convicted of a crime because the DA does not believe that the criteria for the use of deadly force were satisfied. Same for seeing someone stealing your car.


If you didn't give up your wallet what was the bad guy going to do? In Florida robbery equals intent to harm.

Thank goodness I don't live over there. Seems like your politicials have given the bad guys more rights than the victim.

BlueTrain
February 9, 2011, 07:50 AM
I think a person needs to have more options than shooting. But that's easy to say, hard to do for someone who is elderly or frail or relatively immobile. Something less than lethal might be handy to have, not that I own any such thing myself.

I'd also say it's pointless to bring up the subject with a lawyer because the possible situations and outcomes are endless. While they might have some worthwhile advice, which they will charge for, they usually pull out the law books after something has happened.

booker_t
February 9, 2011, 07:55 AM
Splitlear, might try using the search function for past threads as well, my lord has this topic been discussed at length.

OldMarksman
February 9, 2011, 08:54 AM
Posted by threegun: Simply echoing the law and sighting a few clear cut cases of shoots and no shoots does [not] a prepared CCW holder make. There are tons of gray area situations that simply cannot be addressed in a half day course. Very true, as originally intended.

Fear levels differ from person to person so that alone makes for a wide rangeing interpretation of fear of death or grave bodily injury.However, anyone who does shoot someone will be measured against the reasonable person standard, and his threshold for trepidation will not enter into the outcome.

If you didn't give up your wallet what was the bad guy going to do? You do not know. But if he has a gun on you and you reach for yours, you have a very good idea about what he will do.

In Florida robbery equals intent to harm.I would be surprised if there is anywhere in this country in which that is not true. It isn't a matter of justification. It's a matter of risk and of the balance of expenses.

markj
February 9, 2011, 05:44 PM
This begs the question......Then why do you carry?

In case he doesnt want to be friendly. 2 sides to every coin. I like to think not all are bad, some act due to circumstances. Belive me I have been down and out, I know what it is like to have no food and hungrey mouths to feed. So if a guy wants to take something I think he must have a need and why not see if I can help out, if he isnt that way and wants to hurt me or mine, then the nice guy is done and Mr. Ugly gets let loose, no body wants to see that man, he does things that really hurt a person. And he is very large, over 6 feet and 300 lbs of farm boy. I carry a bale in each hand and can toss them as high as the barn roof. Tossed a semi wheel and tire over the sideboard of our 20 ft dump box grain truck, not to bad for an old guy. The looks on them faces :)

I would rather every one be friendly, but in case it dont happen, well boy scouts taught me to be prepared. But that dont mean go out and shoot everyone.

wildphilhickup
February 9, 2011, 05:48 PM
That's easy.

As soon as you feel you are are about to be threatend with bodily injury or death.

SHOOT! And don't stop until the target is down.

Your intent is NOT to kill that person. Your intent is to STOP that person.

threegun
February 9, 2011, 08:52 PM
In case he doesnt want to be friendly. 2 sides to every coin. I like to think not all are bad, some act due to circumstances. Belive me I have been down and out, I know what it is like to have no food and hungrey mouths to feed. So if a guy wants to take something I think he must have a need and why not see if I can help out, if he isnt that way and wants to hurt me or mine, then the nice guy is done and Mr. Ugly gets let loose, no body wants to see that man, he does things that really hurt a person. And he is very large, over 6 feet and 300 lbs of farm boy. I carry a bale in each hand and can toss them as high as the barn roof. Tossed a semi wheel and tire over the sideboard of our 20 ft dump box grain truck, not to bad for an old guy. The looks on them faces

I would rather every one be friendly, but in case it dont happen, well boy scouts taught me to be prepared. But that dont mean go out and shoot everyone.

Let me know how you can tell the nice bad guys from the mean ones so I can be like you.

Rufus T Firefly
February 9, 2011, 09:28 PM
[QUOTE][/That's easy.

As soon as you feel you are are about to be threatend with bodily injury or death.

SHOOT! And don't stop until the target is down.

Your intent is NOT to kill that person. Your intent is to STOP that person. QUOTE]
I think you need a PTC course and you better have 5 good attorneys after that post. Get some training.

B.N.Real
February 9, 2011, 10:33 PM
My wallet has my license which has my address on it.

I'm not giving that to anyone.

Yes,I would draw.

No,I would not shoot unless I deemed it necessary and defendable in a court of law.

You'd be surprised how unimportant a wallet gets to a robber when a gun comes out.

I would'nt get into a dicusiion with the guy either.

He needs to leave the area immediately.

I cannot turn my back and go the other way with him as a threat in the area.

A burgular in my house who is trying to escape is a situation where legally I don't think you have any right to fire.

I can try to make him stop by telling him I've drawn on him but if he does'nt-you better check your local laws.

Now,if my wife was screaming and bloody...someone needs to stop leaving the scene of his crime.

It's not necessary to shoot someone in the head or upper body to make him stop.

You can shoot him right in the biggest target facing you as he is leaving.

His donkey.

Still,you will need to justify this in court.

This idea that as soon as you pull out your firearms you have to start firing it is simply wrong.

And shooting someone until they are lying facedown on the ground is wrong too.

That's the problem here-there are no absolutes for every situation.

Takeum
February 9, 2011, 10:59 PM
THere truely should be better schools out there to train poeple better who carry or use handguns for self defense,,,

Rufus T Firefly
February 9, 2011, 11:37 PM
Another legal problem for you. If you draw your gun. You will go to jail. Period. Your walet might be worth some bucks, but if the guy takes it and your TV.... Let him have it!!!!!
Your attorney will charge you more to get you out of jail than you lost with a confrontation over a TV or wallet.
First off, get the bad guy out of your life. Kick him in the ass to get him out of your house. OK, you have him at gun point... Now you have someone desparate and you will have to shoot him point blank and try to spain that in court.
Don't be a cowboy. Your gun is your defense with no other way out. Think first. You can't defend your family from the jail cell.

jimbob86
February 9, 2011, 11:59 PM
Are the instructors in your area all judges or attorneys?

The instructor I had for my Concealed Handgun Permit course was a retired attourney ...... travels around the midwest giveing handgun classes now.

His name was Paul Horvick of Shootingsafely.com, out of Minnesota. Great guy, great class ...... thought provoking stuff.

http://shootingsafely.com/

jimbob86
February 10, 2011, 12:06 AM
You can shoot him right in the biggest target facing you as he is leaving.

His donkey.



Shooting somebody in the behind with supersonic Jacketed Hollow Points is no less lethal in the near term than shooting them in the chest: lotsa big arteries and veins next to splinterable bone..... but you are shooing to stop them, right? Shattered pelvis or a broken proximal femur would do it ..... and they'd bleed out in 30 seconds or so.......

threegun
February 10, 2011, 07:36 AM
This idea that as soon as you pull out your firearms you have to start firing it is simply wrong.

And shooting someone until they are lying facedown on the ground is wrong too.



There is very good rule that says if you pull your gun you better BE READY & WILLING to use it. People get confused into thinking that this means once you pull you gotta fire.

Shooting until the threat is no longer a threat doesn't mean firing until the guy is dead. It simply means to continue to fire until the reason you began firing has ceases to be. If badguy drops his gun after one shot then stop. If he continues to weild the gun despite 5 hits then he needs 6 as he is still a threat. Let the situation dictate.

threegun
February 10, 2011, 07:58 AM
Another legal problem for you. If you draw your gun. You will go to jail. Period

I know a bunch of folks who know first hand how wrong this is.

OK, you have him at gun point... Now you have someone desparate and you will have to shoot him point blank and try to spain that in court.
Don't be a cowboy. Your gun is your defense with no other way out. Think first. You can't defend your family from the jail cell.

Problem is I don't want my wallet or tv stolen. If the bad guy will comply and stay for LE to apprehend so be it. I have personally held people at gun point for police. It really isn't hard to do. If they run away let them go. If they attempt to harm you defend yourself. If they stay for LE, you and the community, win.

BTW It is offensive for you or anyone to assume, that someone who doesn't want to lose hard earned valuables to a ruffian, is a cowboy. Please don't mistake someone willing and able to man up and protect what is theirs with some sort of wannabe cowboy/cop/vigilante.

Heck the reason you have that soft mindset is because we have allowed the criminal to have rights at the expense of the victim. You fear punishment for simply protecting what you have given sweat equity to obtain. Its truely sad that this mindset has permeated America because your unwillingness to protect what is yours ultimately sentences a fellow American to the same or worst as the criminal you allowed to leave victimizes others.

threegun
February 10, 2011, 08:11 AM
You can shoot him right in the biggest target facing you as he is leaving

If he's leaving why shoot? "Donkey's" AKA the pelvic girdle area is a very good place to shoot to stop a threat. As mention above.

Under very few circumstances can I ever see myself shooting someone as the fled. Just seems unjustified 99 percent of the time.

Microgunner
February 10, 2011, 10:24 AM
Shooting the BG in the back is indeed a bad idea. A man I know, Bart Lamar Powell, shot (2) assailents in the back with the 1911 .45 that he wrestled from one of the BGs who intended to use it on him. Unfortunatly, he did shoot them in the back and, definitly worse, buried them in the woods.

Bart confessed a year later, was convicted of two counts of 2nd degree murder and sentenced to two consecutive life terms.

He was out in 13 years and crazy as a bedbug.

If you're reading this Bart, I don't really think you're crazy, I'm just being dramatic.

nefprotector
February 10, 2011, 12:12 PM
May GOD help the poor soul that breaks into my house. My the Lord rest your soul.

B.N.Real
February 10, 2011, 03:52 PM
The example I used stated if my wife was screaming and bloody,i.e. this guy just beat the mess out of her,I'd shoot him in his rear ( or even one of his legs) to stop him from getting away.

I have no intention of being a hero but I have the right to keep what I work for and to not be the victim of any criminal.

Suppose I just give this guy my wallet and next week he kills a kid on the street where I live because I did nothing to stop him?

The only thing that stops criminals is getting involved.

That DOES NOT mean going on a shooting spree against criminals.

It means planning ahead,being smart about your surroundings and where you live.

Lighting your residence and not advertising when you will be away.

And should someone decide that they want to take away what you have worked your life to earn,you should have the right to do what is legally right to keep it.

I don't work 70 hours a week to give that paycheck to a lazy axxed thief.

"Just give it to him" is simply HORSE MANURE.

threegun
February 10, 2011, 04:50 PM
BNreal, I wasn't referring to you about getting involved.

The example I used stated if my wife was screaming and bloody,i.e. this guy just beat the mess out of her,I'd shoot him in his rear ( or even one of his legs) to stop him from getting away.


I was taught to never use a bullet to apprehend. Seems it violates the death or grave bodily injury requirement.

OldMarksman
February 10, 2011, 05:39 PM
I don't work 70 hours a week to give that paycheck to a lazy axxed thief.If he holds a gun on you and demands your wallet; he is a robber, not a thief, and if he shoots you you will wish that you had given your paycheck to him.

If you are accosted by an armed robber, you are entitled to use deadly force in most places (but not to prevent his departure with your wallet, in the great majority of jurisdictions), but it may not be a good idea at all. Do you think you can draw from concealment and prevent a man who is holding a gun on you from shooting you? Do you want to be without your gun for a while during an investigation? Do you want to incur the legal costs involved?

Under what conditions, if any, does the law in your state permit a civilian, or a civilian acting under the direction of a sworn officer, or even a sworn officer, to shoot a fleeing felon?

If you insist on holding onto your wallet, you might consider carrying some cash in a weighted money clip and tossing it slowly to him.

Frank Ettin
February 10, 2011, 06:53 PM
...should someone decide that they want to take away what you have worked your life to earn,you should have the right to do what is legally right to keep it....And the thing is that you do have the right to do what is legally right. Which is why it's so important to understand what is legally right in your jurisdiction.

If you overstep the bounds of what is legally right, for example by using lethal force when it would not be justified under the applicable law, you could wind up in jail, out of a job, prohibited from ever again possessing a gun, etc. Overstepping the legal bounds is another way in which to lose everything you've worked so hard for.

markj
February 11, 2011, 05:38 PM
Let me know how you can tell the nice bad guys from the mean ones so I can be like you.

Well I doubt that will ever happen. We have different mindsets. Mine you feel is wrong and will get a person hurt. Me ? I wrote my thoughts down, sorry you cant deal with them. Sometimes a person needs a hand up, ever offered yours?

Shooting and killing a person isnt what I am all about. I will resist the urge to shoot someone unless it is the only way out and I or my family is under threat. Not the guy over there, not the gal walking down the road, but me and mine. It has done me very well so far. I am still kicking and have had some trying times from young guys thought they knew the answers.

I hope you may someday come to understand this. You may take a class or two as I did that will help you look at a person and catagorize them as a potential threat or not. Or you can just go around thinking everyone is out to get you and be ready all the time. Would wear me out mentally.

A guy did stab me once, I let him get too close and stupidly turned my back on him.

Another guy shot me in the left shoulder for whatever reason he had. Hurts at times.

In my younger days I had no fear, went to all the bad places hung around with all sorts of criminals. My first wifes family was well known for their criminal antics. Most of them are dead, almost half went to the pen at one time or another. One shot a guys car engine, was 4 guys chasing him, he pulled a 44 mag and let it rip. Sarpy County has the details as he was arrested.


You will never be like me.

threegun
February 13, 2011, 10:04 AM
I wrote my thoughts down, sorry you cant deal with them. Sometimes a person needs a hand up, ever offered yours?


I don't have to deal with them as it is your life your call. It just seemed from your post that you could tell if a bad guy was intent on harm or just a person in need gone astray. As for helping folks, yes many times. However my charity is totally voluntary. I would burn the money rather than give it to a needy ROBBER.

Shooting and killing a person isn't what I am all about. I will resist the urge to shoot someone unless it is the only way out and I or my family is under threat.

Urge to shoot someone? No sane law abiding citizen wants to kill or has that urge to do so. Self defense may however require it.

threegun
February 13, 2011, 10:07 AM
You will never be like me.

Blessing or curse?

Glenn Bartley
February 13, 2011, 11:11 AM
I would never ever ever shoot at someone that is retreating, or someone wants my cash. Heck I would give it to him and ask if he was hungrey lets go get a bite. Maybe all he needs is a helping hand up. Hopefully that is, if not well then take the cash and go have a good time.

This is not a reply specifically to the person who wrote the above. This is a reply to all of you who are essentially of the same mindset, I just used the quote as an example. Here is my opinion of that mindset and my opinion about what I would do and how well it would work.

After he takes your cash, you are going to ask him if he wants to go have a bite? Where would that be - at your house? Not only do criminals take your cash they usually take your wallet too, so my guess is you are inviting him to your house instead of a restaurant because it would be doubtful he would pay for you. What about his accomplices, are they coming along. Most robbers are not lone wolves but have criminal accomplices. I am not being facetious here, this is serious stuff. Would you invite a robber to a meal, even at a restaurant then expect to be on good terms with him? What prevents him from, after finishing the meal, to force you at gunpoint to go to your home for more valuables? Will it be the gun you are still carrying? Are you so sure you will still be armed at this point?

As for being of the mindset that you would never shoot someone who wants your money: what happens when you reach for the cash, or maybe he or his accomplice reaches for it, and they realize you are carrying more than cash? Now what? You have already put yourself in the submissive state and they have found your firearm. What is important now is not what you do because you are then already at their mercy. What is important is what they do next. Do they kill you? Do they kill your family? Heck they do not even have to find your gun, they may just think killing you means one less witness. It happens all to often.

Yes, many times an armed bad guy just will take your money and go. The truth is though that all to many times they will also take your jewelry, and your cell phone and any other valuables you have. Guess what else the bad guys are going to want. Are you also willing to give the bad guys your firearm when they finds it? If you are willing to give your cash, then why not your gun? Is it time to try to use deadly force yet?

Do you really want to place yourself at the mercy of someone who is committing an ARMED robbery? They are already threatening your life with a weapon. The line of reasoning, used by the great majority of people who say they would not shoot or that you should not shoot is truly very shallow. You (all of you on the whole who think that way) fail to consider the complexity of the situation. There are too many what ifs that are putting your life at risk, you seem to think if you give up your cash it will all be over. The thing is that the next thing you know is that the bad guy is forcing you to drive to, or they are driving you to, an AT to get more cash. Then they want to force you to go home to get more valuables. Are your wife and kids at home? Are you still being submissive? Where is your gun now? Oh that's right, you submitted and they found it and took it from you. You are unarmed now, do you fight now?

When were your chances the best? Think about that because things like this happen all the time, they are often in the news.

I am pretty certain that if confronted by an armed robber, or anyone threatening my life or limb, while I am armed, I would fight back or try at least to escape under almost every circumstance; for that matter even if unarmed I would quite possibly try to fight my way out or escape. I have that mindset, to overcome my own reactions quickly by taking control of the action and thus to make the bad guy have to react. I am not about to place myself at the mercy of a potential killer who is pointing a knife or gun at me if I think I have a chance. That is what I plan and practice for. It is my mindset.

What are the odds that I would survive an armed encounter against someone already set on killing me from the outset? I think, certainly better if I fight back or escape than if I become submissive. What are the odds I will survive an armed encounter with someone who had just wanted my money but also pointed a gun at me? Well if something makes him change his mind, like he sees my gun, then I think I probably would have been very lucky to have fought back because I think chances are increased, once he sees my gun, that he kills me.

I am fairly certain I would fight back or try to escape in the great majority of such situations. I am hopeful I will never be like those who think they should submit or worse yet who think it righteous to invite a dirtbag, who is robbing them, to break bread with them. Want a helping hand up, then don't try robbing me to get it or the hand extended will likely be shooting a gun. On the other hand, if you just ask politely for it, you will probably get at least some of the help you were seeking.

All the best,
Glenn B

Glenn Bartley
February 13, 2011, 11:12 AM
I would never ever ever shoot at someone that is retreating, or someone wants my cash. Heck I would give it to him and ask if he was hungrey lets go get a bite. Maybe all he needs is a helping hand up. Hopefully that is, if not well then take the cash and go have a good time.

This is not a reply specifically to the person who wrote the above. This is a reply to all of you who are essentially of the same mindset, I just used the quote as an example. Here is my opinion of that mindset and my opinion about what I would do and how well it would work.

Remember, we are talking about an armed robber in this thread, someone already threatening your life or limb. After he takes your cash, you are going to ask him if he wants to go have a bite? Where would that be - at your house? Not only do criminals take your cash they usually take your wallet too, so my guess is you are inviting him to your house instead of a restaurant because it would be doubtful he would pay for you. What about his accomplices, are they coming along. Most robbers are not lone wolves but have criminal accomplices. I am not being facetious here, this is serious stuff. Would you invite a robber to a meal, even at a restaurant then expect to be on good terms with him? What prevents him from, after finishing the meal, to force you at gunpoint to go to your home for more valuables? Will it be the gun you are still carrying? Are you so sure you will still be armed at this point?

As for being of the mindset that you would never shoot someone who wants your money: what happens when you reach for the cash, or maybe he or his accomplice reaches for it, and they realize you are carrying more than cash? Now what? You have already put yourself in the submissive state and they have found your firearm. What is important now is not what you do because you are then already at their mercy. What is important is what they do next. Do they kill you? Do they kill your family? Heck they do not even have to find your gun, they may just think killing you means one less witness. It happens all to often.

Yes, many times an armed bad guy just will take your money and go. The truth is though that all to many times they will also take your jewelry, and your cell phone and any other valuables you have. Guess what else the bad guys are going to want. Are you also willing to give the bad guys your firearm when they finds it? If you are willing to give your cash, then why not your gun? Is it time to try to use deadly force yet?

Do you really want to place yourself at the mercy of someone who is committing an ARMED robbery? They are already threatening your life with a weapon. The line of reasoning, used by the great majority of people who say they would not shoot or that you should not shoot is truly very shallow. You (all of you on the whole who think that way) fail to consider the complexity of the situation. There are too many what ifs that are putting your life at risk, you seem to think if you give up your cash it will all be over. The thing is that the next thing you know is that the bad guy is forcing you to drive to, or they are driving you to, an AT to get more cash. Then they want to force you to go home to get more valuables. Are your wife and kids at home? Are you still being submissive? Where is your gun now? Oh that's right, you submitted and they found it and took it from you. You are unarmed now, do you fight now?

When were your chances the best? Think about that because things like this happen all the time, they are often in the news.

I am pretty certain that if confronted by an armed robber, or anyone threatening my life or limb, while I am armed, I would fight back or try at least to escape under almost every circumstance; for that matter even if unarmed I would quite possibly try to fight my way out or escape. I have that mindset, to overcome my own reactions quickly by taking control of the action and thus to make the bad guy have to react. I am not about to place myself at the mercy of a potential killer who is pointing a knife or gun at me if I think I have a chance. That is what I plan and practice for. It is my mindset.

What are the odds that I would survive an armed encounter against someone already set on killing me from the outset? I think, certainly better if I fight back or escape than if I become submissive. What are the odds I will survive an armed encounter with someone who had just wanted my money but also pointed a gun at me? Well if something makes him change his mind, like he sees my gun, then I think I probably would have been very lucky to have fought back because I think chances are increased, once he sees my gun, that he kills me.

I am fairly certain I would fight back or try to escape in the great majority of such situations. I am hopeful I will never be like those who think they should submit or worse yet who think it righteous to invite a dirtbag, who is robbing them, to break bread with them. Want a helping hand up, then don't try robbing me by way of a threat of deadly force to get it or the hand extended toward you will likely be shooting a gun. On the other hand, if you just ask politely for it, you will probably get at least some of the help you were seeking.

All the best,
Glenn B