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View Full Version : Still more questions concerning the AR15


Kimio
February 5, 2011, 06:01 PM
Okay, so I've settled on a budget of around $1000 to $1300 for my first AR15.

I'm thinking of going with what a previous poster in another thread suggested, a Col 6920 16" M4 variant AR15.

However, I know there are many good brands out there, and I have no idea what I should be concerning myself with regarding the parts and such in the multitude of variants of the AR15.

As some of you already know, I'm looking for a rifle that will last me a LONG time, I plan on keeping this rifle, and if it works out, perhaps pass it on to my kids. It will be used almost exclusively for Paper slaying at the range, and I will be adding on optics and other tid bits down the line as money becomes available. I will also be using this rifle sort of as a practice rifle for when I will have to qualify for the M16 in basic training, since I will be joining the military sometime in the near future. I live in Arizona, so gun laws are kind of lax (which is possibly subject to change with the events that went on in Tucson)

I already know about rifle twist and how that can effect the performance of the round, however, when it comes to different kinds of Bolt carrier groups and what kinds of barrels I should be looking at, I'm at a complete loss.

I do know that if I'm looking for accuracy, I shouldn't really go for the rifles that have a Chrome moly (sp) barrel.

So suggestions and advice would be greatly appreciated.

DubC-Hicks
February 5, 2011, 06:34 PM
Take a look at a Spikes Tactical M4 LE or Midlength. They run at about $800. They also have a 1:7 twist so it will handle all the surplus and heavy grain target ammo. I bought the M4 LE over the summer and have put over 2500 rounds thru it with no problems at all. It outperformed my friends Bushmaster and my cousins Stag. I would rate it about equal with BCM, IMHO.

steelhdgreg
February 5, 2011, 06:37 PM
If you really want to answer your own questions, go to M4Carbine.net and read.

sourdough44
February 5, 2011, 06:50 PM
How about just get a Stag 3H & be done with it?

Chief Engineer
February 5, 2011, 07:00 PM
Which ever you chose, do yourself a favor and don't hang a bunch of useless junk on it.
Just my opinion of course.

rdmallory
February 5, 2011, 09:12 PM
If i was going to spend $1300 it wound be a Ruger SR-556.

Doug

http://www.defensereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/ruger_sr556_1.gif

MMcfpd
February 5, 2011, 09:36 PM
The Colt 6920 will fit right in your budget, will last a LONG time, and for that matter, will probably be closer than anything else you might buy to what you'll see in the military.

Plus, it's not a piston.

trigger45
February 5, 2011, 10:22 PM
dpms

10mmAuto
February 5, 2011, 10:28 PM
If i was going to spend $1300 it wound be a Ruger SR-556.
There is a reason there are so many used SR-556 kicking around gunstores.

Also, get a midlength if you are looking at a "carbine". From BCM or DD. There is no reason to get something bottom shelf like Oly Arms or DPMS if your budget doesn't necessitate it. Even a S&W would be a good choice although they do not make midlengths.

espnazi
February 5, 2011, 10:35 PM
^ +1

Get a BCM or Daniel Denfense, The SR-556 is ok, but you can get something much better for the same or less.

ScottRiqui
February 5, 2011, 10:43 PM
I'd also suggest getting one with a flat top or a removable carry handle, since that will give you a wider variety of choices when it comes to optics. The fixed carry handle is the only thing about my Bushmaster that I've ended up not liking.

Also, if you're trying to simulate the service rifles that you'll be qualifying with in the future, resist the temptation to mess around too much with the trigger group - the trigger is a big part of the "feel" of a particular weapon.

Wrath of Firepower
February 5, 2011, 10:58 PM
+1 for Daniel Defense

mr renwick
February 5, 2011, 11:00 PM
You can get the sig 516 for right around 1300 and it will shoot 1.75 inch groups at 300yds.

ScottRiqui
February 5, 2011, 11:05 PM
You can get the sig 516 for right around 1300 and it will shoot 1.75 inch groups at 300yds.

Slightly worse than 1/2 MOA out of the box? If that's truly typical for that model, it's damned impressive.

Jim243
February 6, 2011, 12:23 AM
Everyone seems to like the M&P 15 (S&W). Civilian models are not like the millitary versions. Some better, some worse. Personally I have two Bushmasters and I am very happy with the results. One a 24 inch Varminter for semi snipping furry little creatures at long long range and one 16 inch to dress up and mess around with.

There are just too many different AR types out there to say you should get just one.

Try this site http://m4carbine.net/forum.php

It should help you decide.

Jim

madcratebuilder
February 6, 2011, 08:18 AM
+1 for the Colt 6920. Well hold it's resale better than most others.

Don't get sucked into the gun of month BS. Buy a rifle from a manufacturer that offers a descent warranty and has a track record. RRA, BCM, ArmaLite, Bushmaster, Spikes, plus many others.

I have Noveske, ArmaLite, Bushmaster, A Arms and they all run fine. Down load a copy of the Army 23&p maint manual and read it a few times.

GaryM&P
February 6, 2011, 08:53 AM
Colt is an excellent choice. The only thing I don't like about Colt is lack of choices when it comes to barrel length and gas system length.

If a 16" barrel and a carbine length gas system is what you are looking for then I'd go with the Colt.

If you want more choices and Colt-like quality I'd go with BCM.

The Earl o Sammich
February 6, 2011, 09:25 AM
Chrome Moly = good target barrel.

Chrome lined = not so good target barrel.

Actually the Colt barrels are not too bad even the chrome lined ones. What you have picked out there is the top of the line. Stick with your first guess. You can always buy other uppers at your leisure.

Quentin2
February 6, 2011, 09:52 AM
... I do know that if I'm looking for accuracy, I shouldn't really go for the rifles that have a Chrome moly (sp) barrel.

So suggestions and advice would be greatly appreciated.

How much accuracy do you want? Normally I'd recommend BCM and Daniel Defense but most of them are in the 1-2 MOA range. Sounds like you may want to look at a stainless steel barrel in 1:8 twist. How long do you want the barrel? And I suppose you want a target or HBAR barrel profile.

I'd be sure how far you want to go toward the target end because you end up with a specialty clunky heavyweight that's no fun for average shooting. Most of us give all that up and go lighter, something in the 6-7.5 pound area with a 16" chrome lined barrel.

thesheepdog
February 7, 2011, 09:57 AM
There is a reason there are so many used SR-556 kicking around gunstores.


Hahaha! True, very true!!

mrgoodwrench76
February 7, 2011, 10:18 AM
There is a reason there are so many used SR-556 kicking around gunstores.

Do tell, I was considering buying one of these used for cheap.

RT
February 7, 2011, 10:23 AM
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bravo-Company-Rifle-Carbine-M4-AR15-M16-s/140.htm

BCM, Colt, DD, LaRue, Noveske..
If you want a very specific barrel, just buy a complete lower and then order the specific upper from LaRue or BCM.

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=100

rdmallory
February 7, 2011, 03:49 PM
There is a reason there are so many used SR-556 kicking around gunstores.

Why? Other than the cost?

RdKill
February 7, 2011, 11:07 PM
Bushmaster all the way. Here in Georgia, I can buy 2 complete Bushmasters for the price of one Colt. I can appreciate the Colt name as well as anyone, but I can't justify the price difference. My Bushmaster goes bang every time, shoots tight groups and has never caused me any grief.

ScottRiqui
February 7, 2011, 11:50 PM
Bushmaster all the way. Here in Georgia, I can buy 2 complete Bushmasters for the price of one Colt. I can appreciate the Colt name as well as anyone, but I can't justify the price difference. My Bushmaster goes bang every time, shoots tight groups and has never caused me any grief.


Bu- Bu- But "THE CHART"!!! (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=412669)

(Just kidding - I'm more than happy with my Bushy too)

Jim243
February 8, 2011, 01:32 AM
Two bushy's here and no problems. I consider it stupid for me to overpay for a AR will not go over $800 anymore even if I have to build my own. They just aren't worth it.


Jim

trigger45
February 8, 2011, 06:29 AM
why not dpms?

Fullboar
February 8, 2011, 07:54 AM
There is a reason there are so many used SR-556 kicking around gunstores.

Why? Other than the cost?

Hi
You probably wont hear any first hand accounts of why, it always "My brothers uncles cousins best friends father was talking to a guy at the gun shop and his wifes sisters nephews son knew a guy who had one and was firing the most crappiest ammo he could find with the gas system turned off and it wouldn't cycle" so it sucks

All the reports and reviews on them are very favorable. no jams, no carrier tilt ect. I know a guy (here we go) in Montana that has 3 (2 x 556 and a 6.8) and he shoot them at least a few times a week and he loves them (they ain't his first AR's either). I think some people dont like them because there Ruger's and Ruger hasn't been a traditional AR maker. There's that and there also not a Colt.

bedlamite
February 8, 2011, 08:27 AM
Just 2 of many threads on the SR556 carrier tilt:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1215335

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=449061

For the original stated price of 1-1.3K, I'd get a BCM Upper, Spikes lower, rear sight of your choice, a half dozen or so Pmags, and lots of ammo.

Fullboar
February 8, 2011, 09:00 AM
I see that both of those threads are from around mid 2009 (when the gun was first released) do you have any links to anything lately? (It would be intresting to see)
The guy I know in Montana said his first SR-556 showed signs of CT when he first got it, he said he had the gas system turn up to full (3) he said since he's turned it back down to 2 on the regulator it hasn't shown any more signs of CT. He said it cycles with any ammo on 2 (there no need to go to 3 (full) and when it is on 3 it really slams when it cycles.

Fullboar
February 8, 2011, 09:27 AM
I just found this video, you go to this page then click on the SR-556 then click on "Limiting Carrier Tilt"

http://www.ruger.com/resources/videos.html#

Edit: After "Limiting Carrier Tilt" try clicking on "Regulator Settings"

Quentin2
February 8, 2011, 10:45 AM
Guys, guys - you're dragging this off Kimo's topic! :D

espnazi
February 8, 2011, 11:41 AM
I would not consider dpms or bushy for that matter. There not bad AR, but for the same price or a bit more you can get something of quality. I've priced it out and you can put together a quality upper(BCM,DD) with a good quality blem lower(spikes, noveske) for around $800. Less if you go with cheaper components in the lower.

I can buy 2 complete Bushmasters for the price of one Colt.

I guess where you live they have colts overpriced, but you can get a complete 6920 from CDNN for around $1000.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 8, 2011, 11:46 AM
Bushmaster all the way. Here in Georgia, I can buy 2 complete Bushmasters for the price of one Colt.

Either you are getting a helluva deal on Bushmasters or you are paying way too much for Colts. CDNN is selling the Colt LE6920 with a quadrail foreend for $1,099 right now. If you've got a source for new $550 Bushmasters, I'd love to hear about it.

dlb435
February 8, 2011, 12:51 PM
My only advice is to avoid a chrome lined barrel. The Army likes them because they last longer in bad conditions. I don't like them because they hurt accruacy. I've got plenty of time to clean my guns after shooting.
Have you considered getting a stripped lower and building your own?
It's a fun little project. I think I've built 5 now.

LinuxHack3r
February 8, 2011, 04:29 PM
I really would love to see you get a LE6920.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

10mmAuto
February 8, 2011, 06:55 PM
Bushmaster guns frequently have incorrect headspacing out of the box. I've seen samples where 40% of the weapons had the wrong headspacing.

stonebl
February 8, 2011, 09:32 PM
What about Rock River's rifles?

10mmAuto
February 8, 2011, 11:03 PM
Strongly recommending BCM!

tirod
February 9, 2011, 11:03 AM
Bushmaster is closing the plant in Maine and moving assembly to Ilion.

And Ford no longer makes Mercury's.

It's going to just be a rollmark difference, which may be good. Not so much for Mercury, which is all it was.

The public is hard to read sometimes.

Most parts, lowers and uppers come from a handful of suppliers, just like tires, what you select and assemble makes the difference. If it's a hunting or recreational gun getting less than a hundred rounds a month annually, Spike's/BCM would be a bit pricey, but you will get your money's worth. Another $500 won't get you a gun that's $500 more accurate or reliable, it will get you a rollmark that commands the price on the market because it's been well played.

Kinda like Starter athetic wear vs. Nike. One or two details justifies double the retail? Or is it Club membership? Brand Marketing is actually a business occupation in this country, select all the right image making cues and advertise properly, you can sell rocks in a box.

Jim243
February 10, 2011, 02:53 AM
Are those designer rocks or just everyday granite? And how nice is the box?


LOL, I just couldn't help it.

Jim

socom58
February 10, 2011, 03:10 AM
BCM, and make it a midlength.

PIGMAN
February 10, 2011, 03:28 AM
I got my new Midway USA catalouge today. I was glancing through it and I believe I saw where Krieghoff is making AR barrels but I am not sure and am at work so can not check the catalouge.But if this is true call Midway and order a Krieghoff. Krieghoff has been a premium German barrel maker since the 1880s and arguably are the best barrel maker in the world.I checked Midway online and can not find Kreighoffs on the website.They do sell Shilen AR barrels and Shilen is also a very good maker of barrels.I would buy a barrel from Shilen or Krieghoff before I would buy a barrel made by any manufacturer of AR rifles.This being said,I have a DPMS .308 that is very accurate and can not say that DPMS makes a lousy barrel.They do make lousy triggers as do most all other makers of the AR rifles so you may want a trigger such as a Timmney. Here is the link to Midway Timmney triggers:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=564523


Here is Midways link to barrels:

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=6&tabId=8&categoryId=11624&categoryString=649***20766***8807***11619***

Since trigger and barrel quality are probably the most important components controlling rifle accuracy with a Shilen barrel and Timmney trigger installed on your AR I think you will be pleased with the results.

Jim243
February 10, 2011, 11:44 PM
If you've got a source for new $550 Bushmasters, I'd love to hear about it.


Don't know but you can get a Bushy plus 2 mags a hard case and a Bushnell red dot from Gander Mt for $599.00 or from Cabelas for $649.00. I got mine from Cabelas for $599, they did a price match.


Jim

Volucris
February 11, 2011, 12:59 AM
Don't settle for anything other than:
BCM
Colt
Noveske
Daniel Defense
LMT

S&W and Spikes are fine if they're significantly cheaper than the above.


Anything else better be a wildcatted range-toy or a berm blaster.

Jim243
February 11, 2011, 01:16 AM
Don't settle for anything other than:

or
Lexus
BMW
Audi
Infinity
Jag

My God doesn't anyone drive a Chevy anymore?

Blackops_2
February 11, 2011, 01:39 AM
I drive a chevy :D

To the OP choose your logo and price and pick between DD, BCM, spikes, LMT, S&W, and Colt. I would throw others in there but your budget is 1300 I don't feel there is a need to get a lower quality rifle, no offense to others. I don't throw noveske in because frankly they won't do anything a BCM won't and they're expensive. Not saying they're not good cause they're great but if I'm gonna drop 2 grand + on an AR its gonna be a SR-15

I personally love BCM. I wouldn't hesitate to buy any of those brands I listed. But my number one choice is BCM, they're kinda like the U.S. Optics of ARs to me. Customization at its finest.

Jim243
February 11, 2011, 02:07 AM
I drive a chevy

Blackops, glad to hear that you support your country's industry. In that price range I would chose the Daniel Defence one. Don't have much experience with Bravo Company Manufactering. 90 % of the parts for the AR are make by the same two to three companys and are all the same no mater who's AR you buy. The real difference is in putting them together and who does a better job of that. I like your choices but not their prices with the exception of Colt (over price, but they make a great 1911). It is much much cheaper to put your own AR together, and it really isn't that hard.

Good Shooting and stay safe.
Jim

Bartholomew Roberts
February 11, 2011, 08:38 AM
Don't know but you can get a Bushy plus 2 mags a hard case and a Bushnell red dot from Gander Mt for $599.00 or from Cabelas for $649.00.

I didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up!

Blackops_2
February 11, 2011, 10:22 AM
I agree, my next one myself i'm going to build from scratch. As for where BCM gets they're parts description on they're unmarked uppers just state from a USGI contractor. So i guess the same as Colt :confused: i trust them. And if the OP is to buy the entire gun i also agree DD M4 is hard to beat @ 1000$ for what you get. Then he could spend the other 300$ on Ammo or save for a quality optic.

Quentin2
February 11, 2011, 10:43 AM
90 % of the parts for the AR are make by the same two to three companys and are all the same no mater who's AR you buy.

Unfortunately that's not true. There are lots of part makers and quality varies wildly. And don't forget the Chinese knockoffs.

I do agree that there is a smaller number of sources for top notch parts and that the high quality AR makers don't use junk parts. The mid-quality AR makers use decent parts that should do the job for most buyers. Fortunately very few AR makers use the absolute worst of the worst parts.

Kimio
February 11, 2011, 08:58 PM
Thank you for all the replies, I believe I've narrowed it down to two models

Colt 6920: $1,298: after taxes $1,428
http://sgcusa.com/Rifles-Colt/c85_95/p726/Colt-AR15-LE-6920-16%22-M4/product_info.html

LMT M4 16" Patrol: $1,249: after taxes $1,375
http://sgcusa.com/Rifles-LMT/c85_103/p2137/LMT-Standard-Defender-M4-Rifle,-16%22-Patrol-%28SPM16%29/product_info.html

The LMT is a bit close to what my previous budget is, but I think I'll be able to squeak out a little more for the Colt if I so desired. However I am concerned about the mod ability of these two rifles, anyone with experience with these two brands know if there is anything I should worry about if I wished to swap out barrels or the mount and optic on them? I don't think I'll go any further than putting a fore grip and a decent x4 or more optic on either of them.