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anthony6727
February 2, 2011, 11:58 AM
I recently picked up the 2011 Personal and Home Defense magazine ( which I highly recommend) and came upon an interesting article. Page 38 discusses the pros of cons of a.223 defense rife and opens with the following scenario:

"Sleeping soundly next to your spouse, you are awakened by terrified screams coming from the other end of your house. In an instant you realize the commotion is coming from your child's bedroom. With your heart pounding, you grab your carbine and move down the hallway as your spouse calls 911. An then, illuminated by your weapon mounted light, you see your worst nightmare in the form of a madman using your daughter for a shield and holding a pistol to her head.He screams at you to drop your gun as he tightens his grip on the throat of the most precious person in your life. What will you do?"

The article is great, however it never answers the question ( not that it was meant to) but it got me to thinking and I wanted to see what the experts would do. I'm sure many of you will say "depends"... well if that's the case, what does it depend on?

micromontenegro
February 2, 2011, 12:23 PM
From where I stand, the murder capital of the world, I have no doubt: start talking and asking questions, looking for the subject to move his gun a bit when he replies, and seizing that moment, put a bullet in his eye socket. If he does not move the gun in a reasonable time, then a bullet thru the eye socket anyway.

My reply would probably be very different if I lived in the civilized world. But here in Venezuela, that scenario would always end up in murder anyway, so I might as well go down swinging.

jmortimer
February 2, 2011, 01:30 PM
First, I would not march around with a light on and second I would shoot first as there is no reason the B/G is going to wait for me and I will get shot. Believe me, the would be more B/G exposed than my daughter or wife for that matter for the B/G to hide behind (Me I would make a good "shield"). Just had a hostage case here in L.A. yesterday where LEO heard an altercation behind closed bathroom door and the LEO kicked in the door grabbed the victim and killed the B/G. He did not wait to see what would happen to the victim.

scorpion_tyr
February 2, 2011, 01:34 PM
If you are honestly worried about this sort of threat there are several things you should do.

Invest in better home security. Locks, alarms, and a big dog.

Train. Obviously there are some weapons that would not be good in this situation, but there are many types (from pool sticks and knives, to carbines and handguns) that could be a huge advantage, or they could be a huge disadvantage. Just because one has the "best" tool for the job doesn't mean he or she can do the job. You should train for situations like these with what you have.

For instance, do you know for a fact that you can take down the BG with ONE shot in a manner that will make it impossible for him to pull his trigger and kill your child or you both?

First find out where to put the bullet, and then select the weapon and ammo, and then train for it.

Back to the beginning, better proactive and reactive home security measures could easily prevent this scenario.

micromontenegro
February 2, 2011, 01:45 PM
Is it all right to post videos of shootings here? If not, please tell me and I will take it down. But I think this is relevant to the topic, even if the shooting was done by a LEO instead of a private citizen. Local to me.
I will post a censored version, with the gory part pixelated, but with this we lose sight of the moment that the BG slightly relaxed finger away from the trigger, seen as an opportunity by the sharpshooter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10mgdgethA8

cambeul41
February 2, 2011, 03:05 PM
Here is a similar situation in Quanzhou (泉州):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbvJbW9Tr80&feature=feedlik

Crazy88Fingers
February 2, 2011, 03:30 PM
Well I definitely wouldn't drop my gun because that would be the end of it for both of us. If I'm a good enough shot with that rifle I'd put one right on his nose. I think I heard somewhere that a nose shot will send the bullet right back to the brain stem and drop him like a sack of potatoes. Makes sense to me.

sirsloop
February 2, 2011, 03:42 PM
Who the hell uses a .223 rifle for home defense? Good way to shoot holes through your house, your kids room, you neighbors house, etc.

As far as the story goes... I personally would shoot the dude. If he gets your daughter you can kick yourself in the ass for the rest of your life. If you don't shoot, the guy could get you, your daughter, your wife, the dog, etc, AND get away. Evil has already walked into your house, be sure it doesn't walk out.

Skans
February 2, 2011, 03:45 PM
Most likely I'm going to put down the gun and try to get the BG to remove the muzzle of his gun from my daughter's head. Buy as much time until the cops come, even if it means me getting shot at.

The bottom line is that I have absolutely NO, NONE, NADA, ZIP ZILCH experience shooting a bad guy in the head while he has my daughter in front of him with a gun to her head. I'd wonder if an extremely well trained pro would consider taking the shot when its his own daughter's life on the line?:confused: Well, I'm no pro, so I'm not taking the shot. If I'm not taking the shot, what the heck am I doing further angering the bad guy by continuing to point a gun at him?

Brian Pfleuger
February 2, 2011, 03:54 PM
Sleeping soundly next to your spouse, you are awakened by terrified screams coming from the other end of your house. In an instant you realize the commotion is coming from your child's bedroom. With your heart pounding, you grab your carbine and move down the hallway as your spouse calls 911. An then, illuminated by your weapon mounted light, you see your worst nightmare in the form of a madman using your daughter for a shield and holding a pistol to her head.He screams at you to drop your gun as he tightens his grip on the throat of the most precious person in your life. What will you do?"

Do you really have a choice?

If you can't hit Mr BG in the head at that distance with a rifle, you had better be doing some serious practicing.

(Yes, I know, the stress... all that...)

Dropping your gun is CERTAINLY not an option. Standing there doing nothing is CERTAINLY not an option.

What can you do? Squeeze the trigger.

Manco
February 2, 2011, 03:59 PM
What are my options? The only two that spring to mind are either taking a "hostage shot" or surrendering and becoming a hostage myself. With the former I'd have to bet on my ability to place an accurate head shot at fairly close range, and with the latter I'd have to bet that the intruder doesn't really want to hurt anybody unnecessarily. Well, I have a gun and I know how to use it, so I'd take the hostage shot, even if I were using a pistol. I practice head shots with pistols frequently at the range, and I'm confident that I can make the shot with minimal risk (especially with a carbine or rifle)--if I actually get a moment to aim carefully, then I won't miss.

Yeah, that sounds a bit crazy for somebody who is SO safety-conscious like me, but this is a dire scenario and I'd much rather depend on myself than the conscience and charity of a home invader--no question. If I didn't have the necessary skills, then I'd train even harder to develop them.

By the way, I wouldn't wait for the bad guy to make the first move--once it becomes clear that both sides are armed, then the one who shoots first has the clear advantage. I'd only delay if I didn't have a clear shot--once I have the shot, I'll take it immediately.

markj
February 2, 2011, 03:59 PM
Wife works nights so the sleeping thing is out, next my kids room is next to mine to get to it a person needs to come down a hallway past my room so scratch that as the dogs will have alerted me to anyone on my land within 1/4 mile so while they are attempting to gsain entrance I will have them under survellance and be recording their actions for future use in court. The motion sensored lites will have lit them up so the cameras get a good picture.


Darn it I have a plan and have added onto the place with SD in mind.....

Country boys will survive :) Hank Jr.

Manco
February 2, 2011, 04:08 PM
Of course, it's better to set up a layered defense so that such a scenario would be unlikely to the extreme. Mine, for instance, is based around the UA571-C Remote Automated Sentry System (no, not really ;)).

sirsloop
February 2, 2011, 04:39 PM
yeh... floodlights around the house, secure entry points, alarm system, dog, etc.

MLeake
February 2, 2011, 05:06 PM
... you might want to check boxotruth.com, or do some web searches for ballistics and home penetration.

5.56mm penetrates fewer layers of drywall than buckshot, most centerfire handgun rounds, and even birdshot at close ranges.

The 5.56mm round tends to fragment after penetrating drywall. Makes big, shallow holes, but is probably one of the safer choices for use in the house.

OTOH, it does a great job of penetrating thin layers of kevlar.

BGutzman
February 2, 2011, 05:17 PM
I dont think box o truth ever fought in Afganistan or Iraq nor do I believe did Box O truth ever do some sort of forced entry or convoy battle with it.

I know there are all kinds of people that disagee with what I am about to say and a few of them may even have some military experience but speaking from my experience.

The 5.56 mm is totally inadequate, 6.8 or almost anything out of the 22 caliber range would be better. In this particular situation I would say a Beretta CX 4 or similar carbine in 45 acp would be a better weapon as its dead on accurate and throwing a large round a short distance.

Hopefully you can put the flashlight and if you have one the laser in the BG's eyes.

I know there are a ton of people who disagree they have there own ideas and opinions and a few have some experiences. Pick your choice as you feel but the vaunted 5.56 isnt what a lot of people think it is... :cool:

MLeake
February 2, 2011, 05:32 PM
... what bearing does boxotruth fighting or not in Afghanistan or Iraq have on whether 5.56mm penetrates too much for indoor use?

Apples and oranges argument.

I have some shooter friends who like the 5.56 just fine, though I haven't personally used one in anger. (I have been issued them by Uncle Sam a time or two.) Whether it's adequate depends on the intended use.

Skans
February 2, 2011, 05:34 PM
I think the discussion is really more about whether you take a shot at someone holding a gun to another person's head and using that person as a human shield, particularly a family member. What caliber the weapons are, seems to me, not relevent.

BGutzman
February 2, 2011, 05:41 PM
It would be a lot more revelant if you shoot and he doesnt go down and your kid pays the price.

cambeul41
February 2, 2011, 05:42 PM
The Box O' Truth penetration tests that I read today are not what I remember:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

BGutzman
February 2, 2011, 05:46 PM
I personally saw a real world bg take a tap from a M16A2 in the noggin and guess what, it took 2 taps before he went down. Did the first one mess him up, yes... Did it stop him no.

Range was about 25 feet.

.22lr
February 2, 2011, 06:15 PM
A criminal is threatening my family member with deadly force. and then says "drop your gun"...

My brain will translate his words to something like this:

"Sir, you and your weapon are impeding my attempted rape and murder of your family member, I politely ask that you lower your weapon, or, perhaps give it to me. You could please do so, as soon as you can, I will resume my plans of raping and murdering your family member. Also, should i be taken by whimsy, I will murder you where you stand once your ability to resist has been surrendered."

I will not allow a family member to be taken.
-Of child victims of "stereotypical kidnappings, "40 percent are killed" (http://www.kidsfightingchance.com/stats.php)
-Of abducted children who are ultimately murdered, 74 percent are dead within three hours of the abduction
-In 46 percent of non-family abductions, the child was sexually assaulted

I have told my wife that I would rather risk her life than trust the good intentions of a man holding a gun to her head.

My wife encourages me to practice :) (some levity is needed after the sobering numbers)

VR

Matt

anthony6727
February 2, 2011, 06:48 PM
Amen Matt, my thoughts indeed. By the way, since it was brought up before, does anyone have any solid medical information about where the best place is to land that shot to avoid a twitchy trigger finger( if this is possible?) Or is it just luck?

.22lr
February 2, 2011, 07:02 PM
originally posted by Anthony6727:
does anyone have any solid medical information about where the best place is to land that shot to avoid a twitchy trigger finger (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4429512&postcount=23)

Brain stem:

Though small, this is an extremely important part of the brain as the nerve connections of the motor and sensory systems from the main part of the brain to the rest of the body pass through the brain stem. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainstem)

The brainstem is roughly behind the tip of the nose if the person is looking directly at you. Adjustments will have to be made for different angles.

http://www.neuroskills.com/images/brainstem.jpg

That said, nothing is a sure bet.

Fire until the threat stops.

If it doesn't work, keep shooting.

If that doesn't work, just keep fighting.

There is nothing more precious than family.

VR

Matt

booker_t
February 2, 2011, 08:23 PM
I take the shot. Criminal has already committed to any number of crimes upon entering, including theft, rape, and murder.

Any other decision, and you give up your ability to impact the outcome.

B.N.Real
February 2, 2011, 08:29 PM
My gun will never be out of my hands for anyone.

I'd level that rifle at the shoulder the man's head is peaking over and shoot him right in his face.

There is no way I could live with myself if I let that criminal have power over me,my family and my daughter too.

I would hope that whatever power in the universe got me to that room to stop the dirtbag would protect my daughter as I dispatched said dirtbag from ever getting that near my family again.

And,yes,if said dirtbag gave up,I would have to get him on the floor,face down and put the barrel of my rifle at the back of his neck until the police arrived.

I actually practice at the range with the "hostage" target just in case I ever have to take this shot with one of my handguns.

The real question here is what the heck do you expect a guy that has just broke into your house and attacked your daughter to do if you disarm yourself?

Just say,"thanks" and walk out?

It's one of the reasons all of my handguns have a single action mode.

oden
February 2, 2011, 08:31 PM
[

I have read the responses and it seemes that no one has planed ahead for this type of action whether at home or on the street.
Not having to worrywith small children any more my wife an I have planed to use a code word if this would ever happen.
Once the code word is spoken she will drop straight down an hope I dont miss.
I would think this could be taught to most children.

]

mycrobyte
February 2, 2011, 08:46 PM
The code word idea is a wise one. Hopefully the grip they BG has on the loved one can be overcome.

I concur that forsight and planning is the best avoidance.

anthony6727
February 2, 2011, 08:50 PM
Oden,

Thanks for your reply! I hadn't even thought of using a code word of some sort. It's interesting in that I think that every family usually has a discussion on what to do in the case of a natural disaster ( fire, earthquake, etc), it's logical that any one serious about home defense should have a similar conversation should a potential hostage situation occur.

bikerbill
February 2, 2011, 09:02 PM
One of the things my wife and I have discussed is exactly this scenario and how to handle it ... with her as the hostage ... we've agreed that if I use her middle name, it's time for her to relax her legs and give me a shot at the bad guy ... just like they say never get in anybody's car, I'd add NEVER surrender your gun ...

Brian Pfleuger
February 2, 2011, 10:41 PM
I'd rather shoot at a stationary bad guy with my loved one equally stationary that take a risk of the BG shooting the loved one as soon as they move and/or having to hit a moving bad guy while they struggle with my family member.

If they're standing there, more or less still, and I've been given the drop the gun or else option, I can't foresee anything happening except taking the shot, if it's at all clear to take.

"Code word" options seem to introduce unnecessary variables IMO.

Any planning ahead should be more like "Honey... if this ever happens, slowly, slowly, lean your head out of the way of the bad guys head and HOLD STILL!"

Mr. James
February 2, 2011, 11:32 PM
This is an honest question, and I'm not an EMT or physician, but for a bad guy holding a pistol to a loved-one's head, with a finger on the trigger, are there concerns about (here memory fails) a reflexive response to clutch the hand, perhaps discharging the weapon involuntarily?

My gut is to take the shot - In any event, I am not surrendering my weapon in any such case. This is one of the few hard and fast rules - I will not submit to the mercies of an assassin.

Manco
February 3, 2011, 04:07 AM
Regarding reflexive firing on the part of the bad guy, in the cases of hostage shots I've either seen on video or are familiar with--which admittedly are not many--I'm not aware of any such instances. That's not to say that it couldn't happen, but it doesn't seem likely even with handguns (service caliber). All I know is that I'd rather take that risk than let the bad guy have his way with my family and me, completely helpless and at his mercy (or lack thereof).

And as for code words, as others have pointed out it's probably better to have as static a situation as possible when shooting near those you do not wish to kill. The bad guy may pull the trigger if there is a struggle anyway, and he may be too strong to get away from in the first place. There are just way too many variables, and I want at least one good shot if he's too stupid to shoot me instead of pointing his gun at a hostage.

micromontenegro
February 3, 2011, 07:50 AM
IMHO:
If the BG is remotely knowledgeable about mugging people, your loved one will not be able to get away from his grip. Trying to do so will at best make him move when you least want him to, and at worst, make him fire.

The BG holding a hostage is making time, and trying to make you surrender your gun. He is not interested in killing the hostage right away (he will do that later). So you probably have useful seconds to distract him and so he will hopefully point away for a second, take his finger away from the trigger, or at least relax the trigger finger. That's when you shoot.

Me, I would absolutely go for the eye socket further from the victim: from a frontal position that is the surest way to enter the cranium into the brain, and hopefully at least glance the stem, which usually means instant incapacitation.

Why all this? Because I've seen it work. The shooting which I posted as a video was orchestrated that way by someone in my family who is considered the best LEO in the country: talk to the guy, make his talk, snatch the instant he relaxed his grip in the revolver, a .223 to the right eye. Extremely successful end of story.

booker_t
February 3, 2011, 08:39 AM
There's a mighty big difference between a dedicated sniper who has set up to take an intradiction shot in broad daylight, checked his ballistic calculator and windage adjustments, took a crosswind reading, maybe shot a laser for ranging and elevation, and possibly has a spotter... and a home owner/parent in their boxer shorts with an AR and a heart rate of 180bpm at Oh-dark-thirty.

I consider my level of proficiency above average, and I'd be happy to have my eyes adjusted, hands relatively dry, breathing steady, and put two rounds into his head. "Eye socket" is asking too much from a typical human being given the scenerio posed.

Even those with considerable operational experience, as far as I know, are fairly satisfied putting live rounds (as in, not during training) into regions of a soft target about 5" x 3" center of mass, and the "T-Box," a 3-4" triangle connecting the nose and eyes, behind which is the ocular-cranial cavity and sinuses. Point of aim is usually the bridge of the nose.

Let's also not forget the importance of how your rifle is set up. If you have BZO at 300 meters, then POI at 5-15 meters in your house might be anywhere from 2" to 2.5" below POA. That means you must offset hold your sights. Now considering the CQB nature of the engagement, you'd likely use your 0-2 sight (assuming no red dot), which is still typically set up for 200 meters. Practically speaking, your POA may have to be near the top of the forehead in order to put a round into the OC cavity. The shorter your barrel, the greater this effect will be. Unless your kit is already set up for CQB, that's a lot to remember at 4am.

.22lr
February 3, 2011, 09:39 AM
For the bridge of the nose shot, I aim at the bridge of the nose :eek:

The part that I do diffrent is I aim using the *bottom* of the front sight post. In classes and at the range I have found that this works pretty well from 20ish yards and in.

Your sights may vary. It needs to be checked.

skoro
February 3, 2011, 11:19 AM
He screams at you to drop your gun as he tightens his grip on the throat of the most precious person in your life. What will you do?"

Put a round through his head. He's left me with no reasonable alternative.

micromontenegro
February 3, 2011, 11:51 AM
If I am using a gun for HD, I'll make pretty sure the sights are adjusted for HD ranges.

ipscchef
February 3, 2011, 03:31 PM
Hey Oden, my Wife and I have a code word too! I know we were not the first ones to think of it, I just had not heard anyone speak of it until now.
Two things;
First, Get a Dog,problem solved. I prefer Rotty's myself, but our Boxer/Pit puppy ain't gonna let anyone within fifty yards of our house without raising a real stink, no way, no how. Like I said, problem solved.
Number two, The reason you own a gun in the first place is to SHOOT THE SOB.I am suprised that gun owners are even having this discussion. My wife and I have already put this to bed, as it were.
BTW, My long time friend Thom D. was a real SEAL team member, he went through tactical rifle training, and he says what the other poster said. At that distance, from a standing position, shoot at the point of the nose, the only certain "rag doll" effect comes from hitting the "medula ombligata' or the apricot as they call it. According to him shoot just low of "right between the eyes"
And I am sure of my load of Nosler Ballistic Tips and Partitions in my wifes Mini 14, and in my Bushmaster. Of course I do have my pump loaded with 00 ought, just in case.:D
Anyone who touches one of my family, their WILL be shooting.:eek:
JMHO, and YMMV.
Willy

EricReynolds
February 3, 2011, 03:59 PM
I'd use some psycholgy with the BG and give him some things to think about. He is one of two kinds of people
1) A burglar, who grabbed my kid when he accidently woke her up. He just wants to get out of my home alive and with his freedom. If he's this guy, he likely wouldn't really hurt ny kid and has no interest in doing so. I tell him there is no way I'm dropping my gun, but if he puts my kid down, keeps his weapon trained on me as I have mine on him, I'll allow him to back out of the house and we all live. If he's a career criminal, he likely has a practical mind and will go for this plan.
2) A pschopath who came into my home with the intent to kill my family a la In Cold Blood. I give him the ame option. Either way, if he kills my kid, I have to imagine thawas going to be inevitable. I explain to the BG if my kid dies, he dies next but I will go medieval and he'll obviously believe me. Even the craziest psycho, might get timid and back down.
This is a good situation where a laser comes in handy. It's intimidating. If he has any thoughts of killing me and my kid if he's quick enogh and I miss him are diminished. In case he's not thinking that, I'll explain it to him that the red dot on your adam's aplle is wear the bullet will go. I'd ask him to imagine what that feels like and promise him it will if he hurts my baby...or he could just walk away. Let that rattle around in his brain and odds are, everything will be ok.

markj
February 3, 2011, 05:06 PM
If you set your place up right, it will make it very hard for a person to get into your house and grab anyone at any time.

These scenarios only make me belive most people do not plan ahead or take everything into consideration when buying a place.

The best offense is a better defense, keep them out and you have little to worry about.

Dwight55
February 3, 2011, 09:42 PM
Years ago, . . . I made some absolute decisions about these kinds of situations, . . . "No member of my family will become / stay a hostage while there is life in my body" is one of them. "I will not surrender my gun" is another one. "Nobody is leaving with a member of my family as a shield" is another one.

Caving in to the whims of an already proven child kidnapper is just asking for far worse to happen.

If it is my hallway, . . . my child, . . . the bg is getting shot, . . . then, there, and collateral will be collateral.

About 46 years ago, I learned that incoming rounds have a habit of changing the minds of people hell bent on hurting you. It also changes their minds and their attitudes usually quite efficiently. Bg's at my place can only expect "incoming" until they decide to be "outgoing".

May God bless,
Dwight

ipscchef
February 3, 2011, 09:48 PM
Like I said, get a dog, solves the problem. If it don't shoot the SOB right throughthe brainpan, he has left you no choice. Those that say that they will engage in conversation, If I see a person pointing a gun at my wife, or my baby girl, or, and it is hard to even type this, my grandaughters, dead is the only way they leave my home. And I do not consider myself a Baddass, or whatever. I am a fifty-three year old man who cannot stand or walk properly. But I am the head of my family, I am entrusted to keep my family safe. If you mess with Katy or Natascha,(MY Grandaughters) someone is gettin shot.:mad:No ifs, ands, or buts.
Willy

ipscchef
February 3, 2011, 09:55 PM
Dwight 55,
You have said it better than I did, and you used a lot less words!!:D
The reason I am armed and have trained myself, and took training is that I can look at my family in the eye and tell them that I will not allow harm to come to them as long as I can breathe.
Willy

Onward Allusion
February 3, 2011, 10:09 PM
"Sleeping soundly next to your spouse, you are awakened by terrified screams coming from the other end of your house. In an instant you realize the commotion is coming from your child's bedroom. With your heart pounding, you grab your carbine and move down the hallway as your spouse calls 911. An then, illuminated by your weapon mounted light, you see your worst nightmare in the form of a madman using your daughter for a shield and holding a pistol to her head.He screams at you to drop your gun as he tightens his grip on the throat of the most precious person in your life. What will you do?"

#1 - NEVER give up your gun. That kind of crap only works in the movies.
#2 - That's why I have a Streamlight TLR-2 on my nightstand pistol.

Bottom line - The guy will be stopped one way or another.

Sport45
February 3, 2011, 10:47 PM
Where does this stuff come from, Hollywood?

I've been woken by commotion and nightmare screaming many times. I can't imagine the situation would have been helped had I responded to my child's bedroom with a tacti-cool AR or any other prominent weapon. After all, I was responding to calm his nerves, not scare the bejesus out of him. What do you do when a child busts through your door in the middle of the night? Open fire?

Some of you guys need to consider moving if you think you have to respond to "bumps in the night" armed to the teeth. YMMV

dannyb
February 3, 2011, 10:55 PM
I'll skip the what would you do, everybody seems to be more or less in accord with that part. What I have done is involve my entire family before any such problem may arise. My wife and kids were taught that if they are held by a BG and I am standing in front of them with a firearm, they should close their eyes. Unburned powder and crap is going to be flying out at high velocity in a short range shot, let's try not to blind our loved ones. I also mentioned slumping a bit (as in faking fainting) to expose more of the BG. We even rehearsed a couple of times. Training at the range is critical before this kind of situation occurs. Once it happens, it's too late.

raimius
February 3, 2011, 11:37 PM
Make sure you know your sight offset! (especially those of you with ARs with high mounted sights/optics)

I've seen experienced shooters put shots into the hostage target at 3-5 yards...and I've done it too. That drop at 5 yards can get you!

Onward Allusion
February 4, 2011, 12:15 AM
Where does this stuff come from, Hollywood?

There's a lot of different variables, but if you heard screaming coming from your child's room, you wouldn't investigate while armed? I don't think anyone said to kick the door down and run into the room with gun at the ready and begin blasting away.

anthony6727
February 4, 2011, 12:58 AM
Make sure you know your sight offset! (especially those of you with ARs with high mounted sights/optics)

I've seen experienced shooters put shots into the hostage target at 3-5 yards...and I've done it too. That drop at 5 yards can get you!

Raimius, I Find this very interesting. Can you elaborate a little on the drop you speak of for us learners?

Onward Allusion
February 4, 2011, 09:35 AM
Raimius, I Find this very interesting. Can you elaborate a little on the drop you speak of for us learners?

I think he's referring to when a long gun is sighted in at 100 yards and you either have a high scope mount or a high sight like an AR. The bullet will be hitting higher (sometimes much higher depending on distance) than the laser's dot when you are targeting a much shorter distance.

markj
February 4, 2011, 04:38 PM
I've been woken by commotion and nightmare screaming many times.

Why yes I have, just the other night thanks to the jason vs freddie movie my 8 year old was watching while I was outside plowing the snow.....

Now imagine his reaction if I ran in there with a rifle locked and loaded?

Kids often wake up like this at the age of about 7 till say 14. My daughter would wake up screaming bloody murder cause a tree branch scrapped the rooftop..... :( yeah buddy, rush in with the ar15 and a 30 rounder ready to rock and roll.....

My wife would have shot me.........

She has her own gun and a box or two of ammo......

pacerdude
February 4, 2011, 04:49 PM
To be honest, this situation would definitely cause me to pause. I am not sure that I have enough confidence in my shooting abilities to be able to make a headshot on a criminal holding a loved one as his personal shield. I would like to think that I would be able to pull the shot off, but I just don't know.

That's a terrible situation to be in!

raimius
February 4, 2011, 10:28 PM
Raimius, I Find this very interesting. Can you elaborate a little on the drop you speak of for us learners?
On an AR-15 with an A2 carry handle, the sights are approximately 2.6 inches above the bore. If your rifle is sighted at 50 yards, you will need to aim above where you want the bullet to impact at any target inside 50 yards. At seven yards, your bullet will impact about 2 inches lower than where your sights indicate.
You can use this to visualize it a little better: http://ballisticscalculator.winchester.com/
Adjust the ranges down to 50, and set the sight height to the appropriate number.

If you have a higher mounted optic (like an aimpoint), your offset might be more like 3 inches at the muzzle.