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View Full Version : Need for draw speed a myth?


mikerault
January 28, 2011, 10:46 PM
We all know the scene, two men facing off amano amano and the winner is the fastest one to the draw. Now, how often in real life does this happen? In almost every case I have read about the BG has their gun out first or you have several seconds of warning of a BG in your house, store, whatever. I don't ever recall a story of a person defending them themselves from a bad guy where draw speed was really a major factor in the outcome.

Now, if non-LEOs have some actual verifiable cases where draw speed was a critical part of their defense in a real BG verse GG situation I would love to read them!

Death from Afar
January 29, 2011, 12:09 AM
It seems to me that be lightening quick, regardless of anything else, is better than being very slow. My 2 cents alas.

Frank Ettin
January 29, 2011, 12:22 AM
You have no way to know what your problem is going to be, so you have no way to know what you're going to need to be able to do to solve it. The better prepared you are and the broader and deeper your skill set, the luckier you'll be.

Edward429451
January 29, 2011, 12:35 AM
Speed in the draw is accomplished by smoothness and economy of motion. Practice drawing from concealment for smoothness and do not try to be fast. Speed will come on its own.

Ideal Tool
January 29, 2011, 12:47 AM
"Take your time...But hurry"

StrongSideArmsInc
January 29, 2011, 01:05 AM
Not so much draw speed, but rememeber that the more complicated the draw, it could be more of an issue of losing fine motor skills in a confrontation. Whatever you choose, make sure you practice.

ChileVerde1
January 29, 2011, 01:08 AM
LEOs train on turning targets to encourage good draw speed out of the holster. We try to get trainees out of the holster in one second or less. Obviously, speed should always be a function of good form and followed through with proper sight alingment and trigger control.

But, if your asking if it really matters in a fight, then I have to say absolutely. A combat shooters ultimat goal is to be both fast and accurate.

skifast
January 29, 2011, 01:19 AM
I think it is more important to be able to move off the line of fire fast, and draw while you are moving.

The likely scenario is that the bad guy has a weapon out, otherwise why would you draw. In this case, the good guy has to be able to move or strike the bad guy and then move.

If he draws without moving or striking, the BEST outcome is they both get shot.

Nickel Plated
January 29, 2011, 01:22 AM
I think the more beneficial thing is being able to put your gun into action without your opponent knowing that you are doing so. Being a quick draw will not help much (although it's still a good skill to have I suppose) because chances are the BG will already have his gun drawn by the time you know you are in trouble, so he already has you beat on the draw. If you make it obvious that you are going for a gun he will just shoot you then and there. Which is why I don't understand people who carry under their zipped-up jacket or in a fanny-pack. Trying to draw that gun will get you shot. I guess knowing how to shoot well from inside your jacket pocket may be a more useful skill than quick-drawing.

scorpion_tyr
January 29, 2011, 01:52 AM
Practice drawing when you can. A gun in a holster is more useless than a brick in your hand.

Sharpen your situational awarness constantly. Unless you're in a high noon duel, your situational awarness is what will save you, not your draw speed.

Ryder
January 29, 2011, 02:26 AM
Sometimes the badguy begins firing before the defender has yet accessed his weapon. I'd rather be lucky a few times than a lot of times in such a situation.

Here's one:
Cincinnati police said two men tried to rob the driver of a lunch wagon, and that during the attempted robbery, one suspect fired shots. The lunch wagon driver then pulled out a .45-caliber handgun, for which he held a license to carry concealed, and shot one suspect in the leg, then held the suspect at gun point until police arrived...

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Ohio-CHL-holders-acting-in-self-defense

Double Naught Spy
January 29, 2011, 02:57 AM
In almost every case I have read about the BG has their gun out first or you have several seconds of warning of a BG in your house, store, whatever. I don't ever recall a story of a person defending them themselves from a bad guy where draw speed was really a major factor in the outcome.

If the bad guy has a gun out already and you want to defend yourself with a gun, then draw speed is going to be important. After all, you are starting your defense at a chronological and ballistic deficit. There have been quite a few cases where this has happened and have resulted in a successful defense.

However, here is one of your pseudo wild west quickdraw fights...
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2007-11-07/news/concealed07_1_strangers-soto-concealed-weapons





The likely scenario is that the bad guy has a weapon out, otherwise why would you draw.

Why would you draw if the bad guy doesn't have a weapon out? It may be because you know he has a weapon and he is threatening to use it on you. Or, he has threatened you and starts his own draw.

Jim March
January 29, 2011, 03:01 AM
A fast smooth clean draw tells the goblins you know your stuff. A surrender or chase-off becomes more likely. This is a good thing regardless of whether or not you needed a fast draw THAT time.

---

I'm reminded of that incident in which a guy in Richmond VA shot a lunatic who came into a convenience store immediately firing. The goblin put two rounds into the clerk *immediately*, then pointed his DA revolver at the head of a 10 year old kid. One of the customers pulled out a 7.5" barrel Italian replica of an 1875 Remington 45LC and got a hit off before the goblin could kill that kid. He ended up killing the goblin with that Remmie, without taking any hits himself and without the goblin landing any other hits on anybody else.

The guy was carrying in a classic western-style rig. I can imagine he was damned glad he was able to pull that hogleg fast enough to save the kid.

The clerk survived and was back at work the next day so...overall outcome was pretty damned good.

A reasonably fast draw helps once in a while.

egor20
January 29, 2011, 03:31 AM
Not a gun, but a knife, my wife put two rounds into a BG at 18' when she saw he was going to attack her. We all know the 21' rule. Not sure she was "lightning fast" but, she came home that night.

EDIT: and it was from a purse holster.

DasGuy
January 29, 2011, 03:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmKR6evZRQQ

everragenepa
January 29, 2011, 03:50 AM
I think Bob Munden is proof that if you can draw fast and be accurate it the way. I dont think there is anyone hear who could be drawn aimed and still squize the trigger before he drew and put 2 in you. He can draw shoot 2 targets 6 feet apart and holster in .2 seconds. Faster than you can blink.

brickeyee
January 29, 2011, 10:07 AM
If you do not have a gun out and someone else does you are already behind the curve.

Fingers pull triggers faster than you can draw.

A faster draw minimizes the time you are the one with an empty hand at a gun fight.

JerryM
January 29, 2011, 10:49 AM
Most of us will never be able to draw and shoot like Munden or others.
If you want to read about some relatively modern gunfighters google Jelly Bryce and of course Bill Jordan.
Both could draw and fire accurately faster than the opponent's reaction times.

Read Jordan's NO SECOND PLACE WINNER.

Regards,
Jerry

Erik
January 29, 2011, 02:05 PM
Think of a fast draw in terms of "getting on target faster." As if getting on target faster is ever a bad thing, whether it be a pistol from the holster or a long gun from the slung position. No, it is not usually a deciding factor. But that doesn't make it a myth.

FireForged
January 29, 2011, 02:14 PM
I think a more rounded skill base is alot better than speed of draw. Alot of things "could" win a gunfight..speed being one of them. Honestly, speed of draw is probably last on my list of needed gun skills.

Everyone has seen that video where the badguy and the trooper both draw their weapons at a traffic stop. They both emptied their weapons from what looks like 15-20 feet and didnt hit anything.

Erik
January 29, 2011, 02:16 PM
Odd delayed double post.

Brian Pfleuger
January 29, 2011, 02:17 PM
two men facing off amano amano


Point of order!


Mike,

It's supposed to be "mano a mano", spanish for hand to hand. Originally a term from bull fighting that referred to two matadors taking turns torturing, er, fighting, the bull. Though modern usage generally means something closer "man to man" or "one on one".
:D:D

Double Naught Spy
January 29, 2011, 02:44 PM
Right. Plus, amaño actually translates as skill/dexterity or trick/ruse.

Most of us will never be able to draw and shoot like Munden or others.

While accurate, this statement probably gives us way too much credit. Virtually none of us will ever be able to draw and shoot like Munden or other such notable shooters.

Trigger Finger
January 29, 2011, 03:01 PM
Fast is Fine, but Accuracy is Final!!!

You must learn to take your time and aim, in a hurry. ;)

BGutzman
January 29, 2011, 03:35 PM
Having a slow draw wont matter when your dead, having a quick draw gets you in the game.

Scott Evans
January 29, 2011, 06:02 PM
Conditioned reflex response.
The more a neural pathway is used the more efficient the impulses flow along that rout. Such efficiencies enable faster movements.
Good technique that eliminates wasted movements elevates the potential further.
Each of us however; have physiological limits.
Knowing your limits dictates your best tactic for a given situation.
This is why consistency in training and technique is important. This is why realistic situational training is likewise; very important.
I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that “a rapidly misplaced shot cannot help you” but you simply cannot discount the importance of mastering as much speed as you are capable of.

Edward429451
January 29, 2011, 06:09 PM
Practice drawing from concealment can be done at home very easily with a triple checked empty gun and is only limited by how crazy you make your wife walking around drawing down on things in the house. :D

WC145
January 29, 2011, 06:24 PM
The gun doesn't put itself in your hand. Regardless of how you carry you should be well practiced at accessing your weapon. There's no excuse for being slow on the draw.

dawg23
January 29, 2011, 07:38 PM
Bottom Line:

1. There are some indisputable benefits associated with being able to deploy your self defense handgun quickly.

2. I cannot think of a single reason why I would want to be slow.

Jim March
January 29, 2011, 07:46 PM
Remember the recent shooting in Tucson, involving congresswoman Giffords?

I have it on reliable authority that the Federal judge who also died was armed and wasn't able to deploy it fast enough :(. And he wasn't the first one shot, either.

Dammit.

Southern Rebel
January 29, 2011, 09:18 PM
Jim,

I suspect the judge was sorely lacking in both situational awareness and draw speed. Both of those shortcomings together pretty much guaranteed a bad ending.

I believe there is a lesson in this for all of us. While it had been quite a long time since we had experienced a political assassination of that magnitude, all of us knew that they can and do happen. If we allow the passing of time to lull us into a state of "code white", even the most accomplished drawing and shooting skills will not be of much use. :(

Double Naught Spy
January 29, 2011, 09:22 PM
2. I cannot think of a single reason why I would want to be slow.

You don't want your draw to attact attention to your activity through your sudden quick draw motion. It may be much more stealthy to have a slow draw than a quick one. Whether or not you need to be able to draw in a manner that doesn't attract attention may determine whether drawing fast or drawing slow is prudent.

Dwight55
January 29, 2011, 09:38 PM
I'll never forget at an IDPA meet a couple of years ago, . . . one poor guy had a beautiful S&W stainless 1911, . . . in an Uncle Mike's holster.

The drill was to draw, . . . 2 to the body, 1 to the head, . . . at I think 10 feet. We all were done, holstered, . . . he was still trying to get his gun out of the holster.

He would not have fared well in a confrontation.

May God bless,
Dwight

beex215
January 29, 2011, 09:44 PM
slow and steady wins the race

Ryder
January 30, 2011, 04:02 AM
Scott Evans: Conditioned reflex response.
The more a neural pathway is used the more efficient the impulses flow along that rout. Such efficiencies enable faster movements.


"Fast draw" is a reflex for me but it's the kind of reflex the doctor checks when he taps my knee with that little rubber hammer. It is an involuntary nervous system thing, not conscious muscle control.

Draw speed can be greatly increased using this system. Envision the jerk reflex of placing your hand on a hot stove. Now imagine your gun is that stove... I've heard it claimed that the human jerk reflex is 4 times faster than the strike of a rattlesnake (I will not be confirming that :D).

You can practice this without a gun in your hand, in fact I highly recommend it. It's very easy to injure yourself due to the high forces involved. Your tendons need time to become conditioned.

True enough it is not required every time you draw but it is a good trick to know since knowledge often means survival.

nate45
January 30, 2011, 05:04 AM
I'm paraphrasing here because I can't remeber the exact quote. Clint Smith said something to the effect of "I've never seen a timer at a real gun fight".

However true that may be, I'm of the opinion that as long as you maintain accuracy; the faster you are the better.

I've known many men who have been in real gun battles. Due to my age only a couple lived during the early 20th century. I remember meeting one man when I was a boy in South Texas, who in the early teens (1913-1915) drew and killed three armed Mexican bandits while guarding a payroll shipment. None of the three got off a shot. Now, I doubt there was a timer there, but I'm going to guess he did it fairly fast. ;)

BlueTrain
January 30, 2011, 07:40 AM
The only thing I disagree with in this whole thread is that slow and steady win no races. But you still have to avoid going into the guardrail, as in droping your gun. If you have trying to get that fast draw down pat, sooner or later you might fumble. That gives you a reality check. I said in another thread that if you could get that gun out as easily as you get your wallet out, smoothly, effortlessly and "naturally," then you're getting somewhere. If it were only that easy.

Also in another thread I mentioned how some of these topics make me experiment and, sometimes, think about the little details that confound our efforts. There is the frequent discussion of what condition to carry your pistol in, and how the chamber empty carry requires two hands to get into action (Single Action Army excepted). After a while I realized that some concealed carry methods require two hands to even execute a draw. I'm referring to wearing a sweater or sweatshirt over everything and which can't just be swept aside by your gun hand. Right away there's a problem but it is a problem of one degree or another with any concealed carry method. And the "deeper" the concealment, the more difficult the draw will be, no doubt.

Even the difference between two different handguns (the grips, actually) can make a difference in the ease of the draw, though the easiest to draw might also be the more difficult to conceal, if that's important.

Double Naught Spy
January 30, 2011, 11:05 AM
Remember the recent shooting in Tucson, involving congresswoman Giffords?

I have it on reliable authority that the Federal judge who also died was armed and wasn't able to deploy it fast enough . And he wasn't the first one shot, either.

Dammit.

Your profanity is misplaced. You state that the judge was not able to deploy his gun fast enough and that he wasn't even the first one shot. So after Zamudio, we now have a second person carrying who was not able to stop the carnage? I have to admit, such shortcomings do little to support the claims of pro-gun folks who cry out in a Sally Struthers-like manner that if just one person there had a gun, that the carnage could have been stopped. As noted previously, Zamudio wasn't actually on scene until AFTER all the shooting had stopped. So the fact that he had a gun bore no relevance on the situation.

So now you provide us new information that on good authority that Judge Roll was carrying a gun and could not deploy it fast enough and that he wasn't even the first one shot. Why do you think that is? Was Loughner so fast that he was able to shoot multiple people before shooting the judge before the judge had time to draw is concealed gun and stop the carnage? So you have it on good authority that Judge Roll was actually attempting to deploy his gun when he was shot? Maybe he was, but the reason for not being successful isn't because he didn't have time to deploy it during Loughner's lighting fast shooting spree as Loughner wasn't lightning fast. Given that Judge Roll was with Giffords behind the table that separated them (and some others) from the constituents in line to speak with Giffords, Judge Roll must have gone down next to Giffords behind the table, right?

While you claim that Judge Roll didn't have time to deploy the gun he supposedly had, he did have time to leave Giffords' side after she was shot and to move around from behind the table to being in front of it to help Ron Barber who who worked for Giffords and who was the person shot after Giffords. By the time Judge Roll got to Barber, Loughner had shot others. Then Loughner shot Judge Roll.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Tragedy-In-Tucson-Judge-Roll-NOT-Loughners-Primary-Target

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/21/20110121gabrielle-giffords-aide-ron-barber-recounts-shooting.html

Given that the disucssion here is about the necessity of drawn speed and that you are using the Giffords event shooting as an example of a person not being fast enough despite being armed, you might save your profanity for a better reason.

If he had a gun, Judge Roll had the time to draw a gun. The problem is that Judge Roll didn't draw his supposedly carried gun and shoot Loughner before attempting to render aid. So it would be tactics, not timing, that resulted in Judge Roll's death and apparent failure to deploy his own gun and stop the carnage.

Was Judge Roll trying to draw his own gun when he was killed? There is no indication of it. If he was, not being able to get it out in time wasn't due to the slowness of his draw or Loughner's speed. It would have been because he decided way too late to draw his gun, after several folks had been shot and after he physically changed locations to render aid.

Thusfar, I have seen no information that indicates that Judge Roll was at any time ever attempting to draw any sort of weapon when he was shot. Given that he was on the ground and facing away from Loughner when he was shot in the back, it would not appear that he had any intention of confronting the shooter what-so-ever.
http://milwaukee.wisgop.info/2011/01/22/judge-john-roll-was-a-hero-why-didnt-we-know-this/

The Judge is a hero, but not for trying to stop the shooter. He was trying to save Ron Barber's life by rendering aid.

This summary of the event indicates that Roll tackled Barber to get him out of the line of fire. There are some partial recreations of the security tape video from Safeway.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/jared-loughners-alleged-rampage-caught-tape-fbi-reviews/story?id=12644306

B.N.Real
January 30, 2011, 01:32 PM
That's a failure of paying attention to your surroundings.

You should never have to lightning draw your handgun-ever.

If you feel that uncomfortable in a situation,you should already be withdrawing -yourself- from the situation,looking for cover and drawing your gun at the same time.

High noon faceoffs are for actors in movies where they are ALWAYS shooting blanks.

Edward429451
January 30, 2011, 01:51 PM
Well...there was that time a dog was charging me and I mentally drew a line in the dirt...maybe I can't judge speed well but he was coming faster than I originally thought so I had to draw in a hurry. Luckily I had already practiced drawing from concealment so it was a no fumble situation...(for those unfamilier with my dog attack, I shot once into the dirt and turned him)

AcridSaint
January 30, 2011, 02:04 PM
All other things being equal, do you want to be the "slow" one in a gunfight? I don't. Do I think other things are equally or more important? Sure. Do I think it's pointless to be able to deploy quickly? No.

threegun
January 30, 2011, 03:26 PM
Speed of draw should be higher on the list of importance for many reasons some not listed here yet. The one missing component that may keep us alive during an armed confrontation is duress. Your adversary will likely lose accuracy as his danger level rises. So before I present my weapon he has little to fear and thus can perform to his normal skill level. Once my weapon becomes visible there should be a marked rise in his duress level which in turn should diminish his skill. The sooner this happens of course the better. The sooner you have lead headed in his direction the better. So speed of presentation has greater effect than simply beating your opponent.

threegun
January 30, 2011, 03:54 PM
That's a failure of paying attention to your surroundings.

You should never have to lightning draw your handgun-ever.


So what do you do with all the civilians in public places anyone of which could turn from patron to robber/assaulter?

Pay attention to your surroundings and take note to how many people get extremely close to you. The line at Publix or perhaps while pumping gas. To and from the pumps. Understand that all bad guys don't look shady. The guy in the check out line behind you decides to pounce. The guy who looks like he is with the tree pruning crew. The guy pretending to talk on the pay phone.

Point is it can and does happen and even to those of us who have excellent and consistent situational awareness skills.

Double Naught Spy
January 30, 2011, 05:09 PM
That's a failure of paying attention to your surroundings.

You should never have to lightning draw your handgun-ever.

You should never have to draw your gun, but that isn't the real world.

If you feel that uncomfortable in a situation,you should already be withdrawing -yourself- from the situation,looking for cover and drawing your gun at the same time.

People find that they feel uncomfortable in situations on a fairly regular basis if they are dealing with the public or are otherwise on-the-go about town. You can't go around drawing your gun every time somebody you think doesn't look prim and proper enough that makes you feel uncomforable.

dawg23
January 30, 2011, 05:52 PM
You don't want your draw to attact attention to your activity through your sudden quick draw motion.

I'm wouldn't confuse "sudden" with "not being slow."

curmudgeon1
January 31, 2011, 05:13 AM
Even if one's mind is in condition red, there may be a situation that draw-speed could be a life-saving factor; for anyone who practices drawing once in a while, it quickly becomes apparent that smoothness of motion, point-aiming, and "take-your-time-but-hurry-up" trigger control IS speed.

nate45
January 31, 2011, 06:01 AM
I suppose we must review the basics in every thread.

Avoidance is the best defense and key element of any credible self defense method. I'm sure most of us agree with that. If you do not, you need to rethink your strategy.

Now lets move on to where avoidance is not an option. Self defense obviously means that you are protecting against an offensive assault. You are disadvantaged from the get go. The better you are at quickly producing your hand gun the better. Two seconds in a gun battle, could easily be two or three lifetimes.

Is having your weapon in your hand before the shooting starts preferable to having it holstered? Well, duh, of course. Is not being practiced at smoothly and quickly producing it on a moments notice a good thing? Absolutely not.

BlueTrain
January 31, 2011, 06:55 AM
I think a problem with these color coded awareness levels as invented by Jeff Cooper and continued by the Committee for Homeland Security is that you cannot maintain a high level of awareness indefinately. That isn't to say it is pointless, although the system that Homeland Security used was, because it didn't come with any instructions on what to do, specifically. But for the rest of us, it is probably overdone. People usually have developed their own system anyway that fits with their own life. It just may not involve firearms and it probably won't make good reading.

Likewise, maintaining a decent level of proficiency is another thing, and what constitutes a decent level of proficiency is a whole subject in itself.

I was reading what Elmer Keith had to say on the subject of combat quick draw last night in a magazine article from 1960. He thought it was a post-graduate work with a handgun and, besides, he also thought it was a rarely needed skill. He thought you should be able to make hits on a head and shoulders silhoulette at 300 yards with a handgun before you should attempt quick draw. These days, I'd have trouble doing that with a rifle. So he had high standards. But he also said that if you had to start your draw on someone else's signal, your time would be over a second. So in some ways, he was very realistic, too.

Nnobby45
January 31, 2011, 07:09 AM
I don't ever recall a story of a person defending them themselves from a bad guy where draw speed was really a major factor in the outcome.



Don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but, since criminal attacks can happen quickly, why would anyone of average intellect or above question the need to access their weapon quickly in some situations?

Not saying your intellect isn't average, but I am asking why you'd suggest that speed in presenting a weapon can't be important.

Yes, I know, being alert and avoiding the situation is best, but it's not always possible.:cool:

mikerault
January 31, 2011, 09:02 AM
I never said speed wasn't important, just this idea that we all must try to reach microsecond draw speeds is rediculous. A draw that is smooth, efficient and gets you on point is what is critical. People tend to concentrate on speed over proper form and smoothness. I also contend that what you have on during practice will always be different to what you wear everyday.

threegun
January 31, 2011, 09:03 AM
Don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but, since criminal attacks can happen quickly, why would anyone of average intellect or above question the need to access their weapon quickly in some situations?



Because they are slow and want to justify being slow. Kinda like the not so well hung guy saying its not the size of the wand but the magic in it.

threegun
January 31, 2011, 09:09 AM
People tend to concentrate on speed over proper form and smoothness.

What people?

I saw no one saying speed should trump proper form and smoothness. I did see several folks saying practicing proper form and smoothness will lead to speed.

mavracer
January 31, 2011, 09:35 AM
Because they are slow and want to justify being slow.

Seams to me that it maybe an excuse to justify not practicing. just like the people who say stuff like.
"most SD shootinge happen at 5 feet so I don't need to practice at 25 yards"

threegun
January 31, 2011, 09:38 AM
Seams to me that it maybe an excuse to justify not practicing

Thanks I should have finished my statement with this.

mikerault
January 31, 2011, 09:39 AM
Usually it is the one casting aspersions who feels challenged. Sounds like I hit a nerve.

I practice for smoothness and getting on target, not for speed. I also practice in the clothes I wear everyday and practice both good and off hand sides as well as with and without glasses. Also do single and double hand stances with both sides.

As to intelligence, I will stack mine against yours any day of the week.

booker_t
January 31, 2011, 09:49 AM
I don't even understand the question. It's like asking "does rate of fire on a machine gun really matter? Afterall, it's already full-auto!" Or another analogy, "How fast does the Quarterback really need to release the football?" :confused:

You practice the draw, slow and smooth. You drill the proper fundamentals, and over time, get better. The better and more comfortable you get, the faster you become.

Speed itself isn't the objective. You train for proper form and reliability under any condition. Quickness comes on it's own.

Coreyh
January 31, 2011, 10:04 AM
If my gun is in my holster when I find myself in a situation where I suddenly need a gun, the sooner it is in my hand and pointed at the threat the better off I am. Whether being charged by someone with a knife like a Tueller drill scenario, or charged by a vicious dog, if I see a bad guy reaching for a weapon, or I am already behind the power curve in a fight and need to get caught up, faster is always better. The less time and attention you have to spend on getting your gun out, the more time and attention you can spend on solving the problem.

Someone made a comment about people concentrating on speed over proper form and smoothness. Well, If you don't use proper form, and you are not smooth; then you will never be fast.

OldMarksman
January 31, 2011, 10:42 AM
Posted by mikerault: I practice for smoothness and getting on target,....That's good.

....not for speed.That may ultimately prove to have not been good, unless what you are trying to say is this:

Posted by booker_t: You practice the draw, slow and smooth. You drill the proper fundamentals, and over time, get better. The better and more comfortable you get, the faster you become.

BlueTrain
January 31, 2011, 10:50 AM
It almost sounds like form is more important than speed to some people and if you are fast without having the proper form, then it doesn't count. But nobody here has described the proper form. Likewise, speed may not come with practice but hopefully a smooth draw will, which may count for more when it is important.

booker_t
January 31, 2011, 11:00 AM
I believe proper form is what works best for you, given your style of carry, your physiology, and any limitations (such as from injury or clothing). Speed without form, in my opinion, is simply haste, and leads to fumbles and mistakes.

Proper form is borne out from learning fundamentals from those who are experts at the skill, getting multiple points of view, and trying them out. Over time, developing the best form for you. Which, is always evolving. Ever round you shoot, your should learn something. It's an opportunity to grow. As we age, our bodies and abilities change. This may mean our form changes, even if ever so slightly.

Brian Enos' writing really gets to the heart of this.

threegun
January 31, 2011, 11:21 AM
Usually it is the one casting aspersions who feels challenged. Sounds like I hit a nerve.



No nerve just discussion. My abilities with a gun are irrelevant. I just feel there is more to the fast presentation than just stopping the threat fast.

What cannot be factored is the effect the pressure of your firearm being introduced had on the bad guys aim and decision making. Did he miss because his pucker factor when up when he saw your gun? Did he loose his balance and fall due to it? Did he end the assault or end it earlier?

So IMO being fast is way better than not.

nate45
January 31, 2011, 12:24 PM
I'll almost guarantee that being the first person shot in a gunfight will have a detrimental effect on your performance.

NRAhab
January 31, 2011, 02:01 PM
I've actually talked about this before at Gun Nuts (http://gunnuts.net/2010/08/19/the-self-defense-quick-draw/) - the summary of my thoughts being that a fast draw from the holster can absolutely change the game in a self-defense situation. Todd Green from Pistol-Training.Com also picked it up and talked about it, so instead of repeating myself I'll take an excerpt from my post to fully state my opinion on the importance of speed.

While I’m not a big fan of the whole OODA Loop concept for casual shooters, it does provide an adequate example of the benefit of speed in a self defense encounter. The four letters in OODA stand for “Observe, Orient, Decide, Act” and represent the four components of any decision made and especially those made in a dynamic environment. In a mugging situation, your attacker has already reached the “act” phase – he’s observed his target, oriented himself for max advantage, decided when and how to press the attack and is now on the “act” phase of the attack.
Generally, the act of fighting back in and of itself will interrupt your attacker’s decision making process and force him to do a battlefield risk/reward calculation. The speed at which you react will help that calculation end in your favor. Hypothetically example: you’re confronted by an attacker armed with a contact weapon but initially outside of contact range. He’s in the “act” stage – you observe, orient (filter the information through your training and evaluate the best course of action), decide to draw your pistol, and then act on that decision by drawing your pistol. Because you’ve practiced your draw form concealment, you’re able to perform the entire action above in 1.5 seconds or less. Because your attacker was not likely expecting you to react in such an aggressive fashion, you’ve now changed the dynamic of the fight. Instead of you reacting to his initiative, he’s now reacting to your actions. That’s a much more advantageous position for you to be in.

Speed is a dynamic game changer. It's akin to violence of action in military training - your ability to react at high speed can force an attacker to re-evaluate their decision to press an assault against you.

Madcap_Magician
January 31, 2011, 02:10 PM
Has anyone ever died because they drew their gun too fast?

hondauto
January 31, 2011, 02:17 PM
Has anyone ever died because they drew their gun too fast?


Only if they miss!

NRAhab
January 31, 2011, 02:31 PM
Okay, Todd's website is back up. Here's his post on the importance of a fast draw (http://pistol-training.com/archives/3516), and an excerpt from that post:

If my gun is in my holster when I realize I suddenly need a gun, the sooner it’s in my hand and ready to go, the better. Whether I’m being charged by someone with a knife (as happened to Caleb, in fact) or I’m seeing someone reach for his gun or I’m already behind the power curve and need to do everything I can to get caught up, faster is better.

threegun
January 31, 2011, 02:48 PM
NRAhab, Excellent posts. I couldn't agree more.

Double Naught Spy
January 31, 2011, 06:12 PM
I believe proper form is what works best for you, given your style of carry, your physiology, and any limitations (such as from injury or clothing). Speed without form, in my opinion, is simply haste, and leads to fumbles and mistakes.

Oh, I have seen some slow draw mistakes in my time... ;)

People who simply try to go fast tend to waste a good amount of energy, movement, and often time because they are using speed in areas of the motion that are not great for speed. As you add the weight of the gun to your hand/arm, momentum becomes a factor that you must control. Depending on how you draw, you will have 3 or 4 changes of direction with your gun (both orientation and direction of movement) and if moving at top speed when it is time for a change of direction/orientation, then more distance it will take to make the change, the more energy it will take on behalf of the shooter, and hence more time will be taken.

The place where I see speed being of the most value is getting one's hand to the gun. You have the benefit of your hand impacting the gun to stop the momentum of the hand's movement. After that, it is economy of motion that makes things proceed most efficiently.

Folks who exercise the bowling ball swing tend to be slower to get on target than those that draw the gun from the holster and rotate it to a level orientation toward the threat (aka retention position). It is hard to be on target when your bowling ball swing has the gun pointed at the ground during most of the draw sequence.

Sometimes folks add the fisherman's cast to their draw and I see it a lot with truncated bowling draws. Basically either it is momentum or intention that the shooter swings the pistol up and passes the level of the threat and then has to bring down the muzzle before being in firing position on target.

The reason why folks say "smooth is fast" is often because of the economy of motion. The literally spend less time correcting for the changes in direction when the gun is moving with too much momentum.

With that said, I have watch several folks who have exceptionally smooth bowling ball and fisherman's cast draws that are quick, but they could be a whole lot better.

booker_t
January 31, 2011, 07:12 PM
00 is, as usual, on the $.

Madcap_Magician
February 1, 2011, 05:20 PM
Only if they miss!

In that case, they died because they didn't shoot accurately enough, which is doubly sucky since they had more time to aim...

bds32
February 2, 2011, 12:41 PM
Now, if non-LEOs have some actual verifiable cases where draw speed was a critical part of their defense in a real BG verse GG situation I would love to read them!

It is hard to illustrate these types of cases because most of the time they are not caught on video. Police gunfights are relatively rare for the individual officer so anectdotes are limited. However, there can be no doubt that the failure to get the pistol out quickly has contibuted to the demise of officers. Now, it can be argued that you should have a pistol in your hand before it gets to that point and I agree that there are many times when we should already have it out but the reality of it is that surprises happen. A bad guy who seems compliant can snap without warning.

Check this video out. Watch one officer than watch it again watching the other. One officer gets a pretty clean draw and gets a round off in about three seconds after moving to the holstered pistol. The other officer struggles to even get his out and had he been under fire at that exact moment, he would have been in trouble. Advance the video to about the 40 second mark to observe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3VlMWTJ9GY

BlueTrain
February 2, 2011, 01:24 PM
Anyone ever watch any kind of competition where speed counts, such as a bowling pin match? While there might be some question as to whether or not shooting at bowling pins has much relevance, sometimes interesting points come up.

The first one is, you have to have a reliable gun. I watched one in which more than one contestant had a problem with his gun, automatics in both cases and probably 1911 model .45 autos. I couldn't tell you anything about the ammuntion is use or how much the pistol had been modified but things like that kill speed. Another competitor used a revolver and performed a reload faster than anyone I've ever seen reload an automatic. Again, that has no bearing on a fast draw but it was impressive.

Naturally, in a bowling pin match, the bowling pins just sit there and don't move or shoot back, though you could be forgiven thinking they somehow shrink or somehow dodge the bullets. However, they are relatively small targets just the same and I rather doubt that point and shoot would get you close to winning, even if you were fast. The distance is realistic, I think, and all the competitors used their sights (those that actually fired, that is), so that also must say something.

There's lots of differences between reality and a bowling pin match but just those two things give you something to think about.

curmudgeon1
February 3, 2011, 05:00 AM
My experience has been that the vast majority of operating malfunctions occuring with 1911 model .45 autos are magazine-related. (there are a lot of cheap junk magazines on the market that should be avoided for EDC use; good for range malfunction-practice, though.)
Beyond 5-7 ft. or so, when shooting at smallish targets, it is more effective to transition from point-shooting to sight-alignment in hurry-up situations. A little practice doesn't hurt in either case, of course. I sometimes carry a revolver as a New York reload, they are excellent in that back-up role IMO.

BlueTrain
February 3, 2011, 07:36 AM
Still working on this thread; interesting issues. It helps to re-read the thread, too, so you don't get too far off the subject.

A fast draw will not become a reflex until after lots of practice. Actually, to my way of thinking, it isn't a fast draw that is the reflex so much as it is the draw in the first place. That might be splitting hairs but it doesn't matter how fast (or smooth) you are until you actually draw. It all happens after you make the decision, which I guess is another factor.

The question of a fast draw might be confused with the issue of point shooting but you can engage the target using point shooting after having you gun ready. Frankly, the issues become a little cloudy because real life situations are fluid and gray. You don't always know just what's going on but you still may need to quickly react.

Referring again to the tricked out .45 autos, which I think they all were in the case I mentioned, except for the lone revolver man, while the competitors who lost out because of pistol stoppages, possibly because they were using heavily modified pistols, no doubt the winners were using heavily modified pistols, too. So the conclusions are suspect. Actually, since it was a local match, the pistols in use were unlikely to have been "heavily" modified anyway but I wouldn't be surprised if handloads had been used. As far as the revolver goes, however, I've had stoppages while using a revolver, too.

That thumbsnap on one of my holsters, which I think I mentioned in a different thread, is problematic. Absolutely fine motor control is necessary to avoid a fumble but I'm beginning to think that any issue with fine motor control under stress may be overstated. I'm basing that on my own practice results and on my own experiences doing other things. It is a question of familiarity with what you're doing and keeping a cool head, always easier said than done. But I still think it makes it (the draw) a little slower, though not seriously so. After all, there are always other factors, like the minor detail of weapon retention or issues related to frequent loading and unloading of a pistol. I suppose you just have to find your own comfort level that fits with both your risk assessment and your skill level as it is at the moment, along with a few other things on top of that.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 3, 2011, 02:25 PM
I don't know if it is a myth; but in the force-on-force training I've done, it hasn't proved that useful. I had to draw while having a gun pointed at me already in several FOF scenarios. In pretty much anyone of those scenarios, if I just stood there and drew, even if I drew with Jerry Miculek like speed, I would have gotten shot.

Using my brain to think through the problem or recognizing the possible problems developing was a lot more useful than a fast draw. Not that a fast draw isn't a nice cherry-on-top of the sundae; but if I could choose between a 2.5 second draw from concealment and a superhuman OODA loop or a 0.5 second draw from concealment and my current OODA abilities, I'd take the 2.5 second draw.

The draw is just the "A" part of the OODA loop. Cutting time off there is nice; but the most time is usually wasted in the "OOD" part. Cutting time from that will leave you with lots of time to draw.

brickeyee
February 3, 2011, 02:29 PM
The draw is just the "A" part of the OODA loop. Cutting time off there is nice; but the most time is usually wasted in the "OOD" part.

And if you already took longer than desirable in the OOD part, the shorter A may be what saves you.

MLeake
February 3, 2011, 03:18 PM
... so long as practice is conducted safely.

However, finding places where one can practice can be problematic.

Lucky for me, I have a large backyard, bordered by rising terrain into woods. IE, my backyard is my shooting range.

One thing I figured out quickly is that thumb straps slow me down, and cause occasional fumbling. I suppose I could have just trained more on the strap, but found it more efficient to get holsters that rise higher around the gun, and hold retention via friction. Sam Andrews for my autos, SimplyRugged or Galco for my revolvers. These hold the weapons reliably, but do not require extra steps while under stress or time limits.

ipscchef
February 3, 2011, 03:43 PM
JUst a thought. Go to an IPSC,or USPSA match in your area, find out which guys are Masters or Grand Masters, watch them shoot, and then figure out how much draw speed is worth.
It ain't that hard to get a fast draw, if you practice, not fast like a GM, but fast enough to make the difference, maybe.I'll take the maybe. You guys do practice, right?:D,FAST IS NOT FAST, SMOOTH IS FAST. IT CAN ONLY COME WITH PRACTICE:cool:
We had a stage that we called "One Shot". Standard IPSC Target at 21'. Hands in the "Surrender" position,(Hands Up, above the shoulders), beeper goes off and you draw and put one round downrange, My best was .7 seconds with an "A" hit, Paul Mason, a Grand Master, did it in .2, also with an "A" hit. For me, I was proud of my time, and it gave me some confidence, but I would rather be able to do it in .2, if you get my drift.How do you get to Carnagie Hall?? PRACTICE, PRACTICE,PRACTICE:D:D
Willy

booker_t
February 3, 2011, 04:06 PM
My OOD is bigger than your's.... oh wait, that's not a good thing. ;)

ATW525
February 3, 2011, 05:54 PM
I don't know if it is a myth; but in the force-on-force training I've done, it hasn't proved that useful. I had to draw while having a gun pointed at me already in several FOF scenarios. In pretty much anyone of those scenarios, if I just stood there and drew, even if I drew with Jerry Miculek like speed, I would have gotten shot.

In FoF your opponent is expecting you to draw, where in the real world the bad guy might not be expecting any resistance from you.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 3, 2011, 08:24 PM
And if you already took longer than desirable in the OOD part, the shorter A may be what saves you.

I am sure that has been the case and will be again. Having said that, even a mediocre draw, say 2.5 seconds, doesn't leave you a lot of time to cut. If you observe and recognize a threat 1.25 seconds earlier, you've gained the same advantage as if you had cut your draw time in half via practice.

In FoF your opponent is expecting you to draw, where in the real world the bad guy might not be expecting any resistance from you

It seems to me that if it works against an opponent who is expecting you to be armed, it should also work fine against one who doesn't expect it - with the added bonus that if your attacker happens to be competent, you may be less likely to get ventilated.

Bob F.
February 3, 2011, 08:49 PM
You'd damned well better practice your draw! I carry because you just never know. Happened twice. First time ran face-to-face into one of my biggest fans. Knew he was carrying as his CHL hadn't yet been revoked. Figured I could beat him if necessary. Wasn't necessary.

Second time don't even remember drawing.

Stay safe.
Bob

ATW525
February 3, 2011, 09:08 PM
Having said that, even a mediocre draw, say 2.5 seconds, doesn't leave you a lot of time to cut.

Quarter second split times aren't terribly difficult with many semi-autos. If somebody is shooting at you, cutting that 2.5 seconds in half through training could mean five less chances the guy gets to kill you.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 4, 2011, 07:36 AM
Yes; I wasn't suggesting not training. I was just questioning whether training on a fast draw was the best use of training time. We both agree that cutting 1.25 seconds from your OODA loop is a benefit. Is it easier to get that all out of the draw time or can you gain efficiency at other points in that cycle?

It seems to me that a good draw is probably easier to train since you can work on it at home, dry-fire. However, in terms of just time invested, I bet good FoF training would improve your overall training more efficiently (but is much more difficult to do resource wise)

nate45
February 4, 2011, 07:52 AM
It takes me .5 to .6 seconds to draw and get off a shot, in response to a timer signal. If I initiate the draw by my own decision that time is cut in half.

Two seconds in the context of a deadly confrontation could literally be an eternity. If one has never seen in person, someone draw and fire 8-9 rounds from a semi-auto pistol in 2 seconds or less, they need to. Then a 2.5 second draw time would be put in its proper perspective. Which is slow, slow, slow.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 4, 2011, 01:09 PM
I don't think anyone was arguing 2.5 seconds was a good time. I was just pointing out that even if you went from mediocre to phenomenon, the most time you could possibly cut is 2 seconds or so.

Which is a lot of time when people are shooting at you to be sure; but I bet most people waste way more than 2 seconds in the OOD portion and can improve time there with less training than it would take to change that 2.5 second draw into a half second draw from concealment in every day carry gear - since that is what we are talking about here and duplicating your best time with your IPSC rig is probably not going to happen.

threegun
February 4, 2011, 04:53 PM
I don't know if it is a myth; but in the force-on-force training I've done, it hasn't proved that useful. I had to draw while having a gun pointed at me already in several FOF scenarios. In pretty much anyone of those scenarios, if I just stood there and drew, even if I drew with Jerry Miculek like speed, I would have gotten shot.

In FOF being behind in the reactionary curve almost insures a nasty welt. In the real deal it almost insures getting shot. While FOF is IMO as close as possible to real world pressure it simply falls short of real duress.

The reason speed is extremely important goes beyond lead to meat time. From the time your opponent sees you going for a firearm he is under duress. As you raise your firearm so is his stress level raised.

Most folks I know perform worst under competitive pressure than they do without it. The folks with FOF training I know perform worst while under the point of a gun or when facing an opponent with a known speed advantage.

What is never measured is how speed saves lives by putting your adversary under the threat of death faster. The pressure associated almost certainly erodes shooting skill. The faster the pressure the more benefit enjoyed.

Nnobby45
February 4, 2011, 04:59 PM
I never said speed wasn't important, just this idea that we all must try to reach microsecond draw speeds is rediculous. A draw that is smooth, efficient and gets you on point is what is critical. People tend to concentrate on speed over proper form and smoothness. I also contend that what you have on during practice will always be different to what you wear everyday.

Well, you've clarified some things that weren't clear in your thread starter. I think that's why you've gotten some of the replies that are giving you heartburn.

"Smooth, efficient, and gets you on point" comes with practicing the draw which translates to a faster draw.

No, we aren't talking about facing off at ten paces ala Hollywood movies, but accessing the firearm quickly as a response to a quick attack. The draw may not even be possible until you've gotten Bubba out of your face with unarmed skills.

Quick action during an attack means a number of things from fast lateral movement, jumping behind cover, drawing your gun, etc., etc.

I don't have bunch of data, you can Google around on your own, but I believe that quick access to a the firearm, which would include drawing from concealment, as saved lots of lives--often when the victim surprises the assailant. And often, firing the weapon isn't necessary.

BlueTrain
February 5, 2011, 11:31 AM
There are some fast people in this thread, that's for sure. But I agree with MLeake entirely; those have been my concerns as well (thumbsnaps), as well as other problems with executing a smooth draw, mostly all connected with concealment. Smooth isn't all that difficult but really being fast (thought I have no timer) without fumbling is something else if you are attempting a fast draw from beneath concealment.

I'd suggest a reading of Ed McGivern's book on revolver shooting, which you all probably have anyway. Unfortunately, it really is mostly about revolvers and I suspect that most of the respondents in this thread are more interested in automatics at the moment. If there's anything he doesn't talk about in connection to fast draw, I don't know what it is. He also devotes some space to timers.

curmudgeon1
February 5, 2011, 02:17 PM
[QUOTE][/QUOTEThere are some fast people in this thread, that's for sure]

I would have no qualms about walking down the middle of main street past the corral in Tombstone at high-noon with these guys. (we'll invite Wyatt along for backup, just in case.)

MLeake
February 5, 2011, 02:20 PM
... at least, not from the books I've read.

He was known for staring people down from time to time.

At the OK Corral, from what I read, he actually took time for aimed shots, and hit his targets. Opponents shot quickly, and missed (put holes through his jacket, though).

Caveat: all things being equal, I'd rather have a faster draw, but Wyatt is a better example for making shots count.

NRAhab
February 5, 2011, 02:36 PM
It's a common misconception that fast can only come at the expense of accuracy. Certainly you're not going to shoot lovely 1-hole groups at 25 yards while rocking 0.20 split times, but at the same time it is quite possible with practice to draw from a concealed IWB holster and get hits on an 8 inch circle at 7 yards in less than 1.4 seconds.

The key to real speed on the draw isn't to throw the gun out there as fast as you can and then wail on the trigger, but rather to use a technique called a "press-out".

The faster the sights are level in front of the eyes, the faster you will be able to make an aimed hit. So, if the need for a visual index exists, I want to draw my gun straight up to my eye-line with my muzzle a little high (pretty much inside the workspace).

From there, the sights are aligned, the gun is pushed to full extension, and the trigger is pressed, simultaneously. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, the key is knowing which two points to connect. It doesn’t do much good to throw the gun from holster to full extension if you don’t have the visual reference you need and are waiting on that reference to begin trigger press.

Watch this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCXmZD-Rym4). That's about a 1/4th speed press out, but it illustrates the concept aptly that the gun moves towards the target as the trigger is being prepped. Once the arms reach their natural extension point, the shot breaks. This works regardless of whether you're running a 1911 with a 4 lb trigger or a DA revolver with a 12 lb trigger.

BlueTrain
February 5, 2011, 04:53 PM
At one time there must have been no other gunfight more famous in history than the shootout at the OK Corral. Both Applegate and McGivern mentioned it and considered it important. Earp was a younger man at the time it happened and he lived until 1929. That probably helped to keep the memory alive. It was fast and accurate shooting that won that day but I doubt if fast draw entered into the matter.

hkfanboy
February 5, 2011, 06:36 PM
I think it seems "draw speed" and "quick draw" are getting a little confused here. I would define draw speed as the time it takes to get the weapon presented and ready to accurately place a round on target from the holstered position. The term “quick draw” I would limit to movies and games and think it should be extremely limited in its use as a contribution to a legitimate discussion.

I know the OP came back and clarified his original position but there seems to be other users that think a slow steady draw is the only way to go. In other threads here I’ve read a lot of people talk about a tool box and think draw speed is just another tool in the box. When you assess the situation you have to determine what tool(s) in the box best fit the situation.

Is my attacker distracted by something else? At that time I would have to determine whether a faster draw is worth the risk that he might notice. It might be better to not risk rapid movement and draw the weapon slowly. But I don’t think for a minute that a person has one single draw speed (at least not a person who moderately practices drawing from the holster).

On the other hand if someone is shooting/ attacking/ etc. and cover is not immediately available you better believe I’m going to draw as efficiently and mechanically sound (as fast) as I know I am capable of and shoot or shoot while moving to cover.

Nnobby45
February 5, 2011, 06:49 PM
At the OK Corral, from what I read, he actually took time for aimed shots, and hit his targets. Opponents shot quickly, and missed (put holes through his jacket, though).

Caveat: all things being equal, I'd rather have a faster draw, but Wyatt is a better example for making shots count.

Hickock, maybe the best of them all, also "took time to aim". I wouldn't refer to either Hickock or Earp as slow anymore than a modern day shooter trained in the art of using sights.

John Wesley H. wasn't too bad, himself. Another one of those fellows who AIMED and sprung into action fast as a cat.

Earp was never scratched by a bullet. Don't recall if Hickcock or Hardin were ever wounded in a shooting. And I'm not referring to Wild Bill's murder while sitting at a card table.:D

Certain gun fighters get a lot of attention, but I'll bet there were a lot of 'em, back then, who were rather formidable and highly competent with a six shooter.

Maximus856
February 5, 2011, 07:25 PM
I've often thought of this situation, but it wasn't something I thought of in-depth until a few days ago. I found out a good friend who has already been through a very tragic situation was walking with his girlfriend and teenage brother to a gas station during the snow storm about a week ago. It's in a VERY small city with some crime but mostly between drug dealers and wannabe gangs. Anyway, on the way there two guys jumped out with guns and robbed them. They hit my friend on the head with a gun and held the girlfriend with a gun to her head while they made their demands. They ended up getting away with the brothers back pack and their wallets, however no shots fired and my buddy just got a bump on his head.

Out of our friends, I am the only one who CCs and has some sort of training.I really wonder what the outcome would of been had I been there as a stroll to the store is not uncommon for us to do. Would I of made the decision to draw and fire, and would it of been fast and accurate enough to dispatch the BGs? In that situation it would of been all about the speed and accuracy both of the OODA loop and the action itself. As it stands, there was 1 of 2 outcomes. It could of gone just as it had or it could of been a murder scene. In my opinion had I been there, up until the event was over I would of been thinking without action it would be the latter of the two. Still, with a gun to someones head and me not being part of the situation I do not know how I would of reacted or the outcome of my reaction. I could only hope the speed and accuracy would of been on my side.

-Max

Frank Ettin
February 5, 2011, 07:49 PM
When it comes down to it, it's really not a question of quick draw or fast draw. It's a question of how long it can take us to perceive the threat, determine the need to fire, deploy our gun and engage the threat with accurate fire, having made the decision that shooting is warranted.

So how much time will we have in which to do all of that? I have no idea and neither do you. It's going to all depend on what happens and how it happens. We might have lots of time, or we might have very little. We simply can't know in advance.

If we can't get done what we need to do in the time circumstances allow us, we will not be happy with the outcome. Good training and diligent practice can help reduce the time we need to be able to effectively do what we need to be able to do.

BlueTrain
February 6, 2011, 08:07 AM
I hate to sound dumb or uninformed, but what is the OODA loop?

Now, in regard to fiddletown's remarks, I agree completely. When one is in a situation, the bad guy has already made his decision and has committed himself to a course of action, for better or for worse. We, or the good guys, may not even be the primary target of the bad guy's action, if there are several people around. We have to make assumptions and quickly.

Not only do you have to decide what to do, if anything, you have to do this while you have all these conflicts going through your head about the consequences of your actions. When you have zero experience with these things, as most of us do, you really just don't know what to do. You can talk all you want about situational awareness and that's important but that's just the beginning. But even Elmer Keith was never in a gunfight and even went so far as to wonder why.

jon_in_wv
February 6, 2011, 08:57 AM
Being able to draw your weapon smoothly, safely, and quickly is important BUT I believe you are much likely to hesitate drawing, that to be too slow drawing.

ojibweindian
February 6, 2011, 10:23 AM
I hate to sound dumb or uninformed, but what is the OODA loop?


Observe, Orient, Decide, Act

curmudgeon1
February 6, 2011, 12:49 PM
[QUOthe bad guy has already made his decision and has committed himself to a course of action[/QUOTE]

Here is where concealed carry becomes a big advantage over the predators:
we know and can see their intentions, but they are unaware of the .45acp on our belt; the instant his attention is distracted away from us momentarily is when we spring the surprise of the "smooth draw" and the "take-your-time-but-hurry-up" trigger control on 'em, just like they surprised us (if we happened to be in condition white.:))

Nnobby45
February 6, 2011, 03:51 PM
When it comes down to it, it's really not a question of quick draw or fast draw. It's a question of how long it can take us to perceive the threat, determine the need to fire, deploy our gun and engage the threat with accurate fire, having made the decision that shooting is warranted.

Another subjective and generalized statement that ignores the fact that SOMETIMES drawing the weapon fast is necessary for survival---even though the statement is true in the general sense. We only arrive at generalities after figuring in all the extremes.

booker_t
February 7, 2011, 12:08 PM
I hate to sound dumb or uninformed, but what is the OODA loop?


This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop).