PDA

View Full Version : Why all the Judge hate?


nate45
January 18, 2011, 09:36 PM
First let me say that I do not own a Taurus Judge, nor do I want one.

I just want the despisers of the Judge to articulate to me why they hate it.

I know its a revolver that shoots .45 Colt and .410 Shotgun shells. Its got a long cylinder, but its not super funny lookin'. So why all the jokes and scorn? I honestly don't get it. :confused:

Standing Wolf
January 18, 2011, 09:46 PM
Part of it is Taurus' long-standing reputation for low quality. I thought that was exaggerated until I went to work in a gun shop, sold some, and watched them come back for remedial work.

sirsloop
January 18, 2011, 09:58 PM
It doesn't have a defining purpose... well maybe it does but its purpose is not in line with what most people want.

HoraceHogsnort
January 18, 2011, 10:14 PM
Its the best selling gun in their lineup. Having said that, I wouldn't have one if you gave it to me!! It just goes to show you that a lot of people who are into guns and shooting are just as susceptible to silliness and marketing hype as people who are into any other form of recreation. ;)

MrDontPlay
January 18, 2011, 10:16 PM
Why does no one mention the raging judge? .410, .454, and .45LC in one gun sounds pretty cool to me.

Crankylove
January 18, 2011, 10:30 PM
In my opinion, First off its a Taurus.......had enough of those in the family to know to stay away from them. Second, to me, it is butt ugly. Thirdly, they dont seem to pattern shot very well, and accuracy with the .45 Colt is less than stellar.

I don't like them and will never own one.........but if you do, thats great.....for you.

jimbob86
January 18, 2011, 10:45 PM
why all the jokes and scorn?

I can't help myself: If I see somebody doing something stupid (especially if they are doing it because they think it's "cool" and they think it's "cool" because their peers think it is "cool"), I gotta point and laugh!

I feel the same about the Jersey guys with the orange skin and the moussed hair, the idjits with pants so saggy they have to hold them up with one hand, etc....... and come to think of it, fake tans and hair goo won't get you killed in a gunfight.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 18, 2011, 11:08 PM
Fake tans and hair goo = speaker of the house? :D

Sorry.

Some of the Taurus debate is not that it could be a fun gun but it's push as the ultimate SD gun with super stopping power and not needing to aim. Or the use of birdshot as some kind of less than lethal round at a distance.

Very confused SD presentation that is attractive to newbies. That offends tactical purists who like guns that you can aim with precision.

That's the story.

ATW525
January 18, 2011, 11:14 PM
I don't really have anything against the gun, only the marketing that tries to make a .410 revolver sound like some super self defense weapon of doom.

Leejack
January 18, 2011, 11:15 PM
The key word in your question is hate. To cover the many reasons for it isn't possible in a simple post. It is however, widespread here.

zombieslayer
January 18, 2011, 11:21 PM
Well said, ATW.

KyJim
January 18, 2011, 11:37 PM
Large, ugly, inaccurate, and generally a poor second choice for everything for which it was built. The real topper is that American Rifleman named it handgun of the year in 2008. :barf:

jimbob86
January 19, 2011, 12:15 AM
Large, ugly, inaccurate, and generally a poor second choice for everything for which it was built.

That, combined with the Sooperdooper Self Defense Wondergun sales pitch, pretty much sums it up.


Ugly? I don't care about ugly. Glocks are ugly, but they work well for what they were designed to do ...... but then again, the Judge is doing what it was designed to do: take suckers' money.

The real topper is that American Rifleman named it handgun of the year in 2008. American Rifleman's shark jumping moment, that.

...you don't 'spose it had anything to do with the amount of advertising Taurus was doing? The only other logical thing I can figure is that it was the only entry in the contest.......

nate45
January 19, 2011, 07:17 AM
I knew very little about the Judge when I started this thread. It was just something I ignored, because it didn't interest me. I had only recently noticed all the derision cast upon it. So I had know idea that it was being marketed as an uber defense weapon. :barf:

I'm still not certain making fun of its appearance, or its purchasers is the way to go. However, I do believe people, at least those that will listen to reason; should be informed of its short comings as a defensive weapon.

munson1
January 19, 2011, 07:26 AM
If someone wants one thats OK. I'll spend my $$$$$ on a N-frame Smith.

Ken

spacecoast
January 19, 2011, 07:44 AM
If I am ever unfortunate to have someone shooting at me, hopefully he's using a Taurus.

Kreyzhorse
January 19, 2011, 07:53 AM
I just want the despisers of the Judge to articulate to me why they hate it.


I don't hate it, I just think that while it does a lot of things, it doesn't do any one thing very well. Couple that with the fact that it has only a "fair" track record of reliability and you've got a gun that leaves most of us scratching their heads in wonder.

virg
January 19, 2011, 07:55 AM
I own several Taurus revolvers and autos. They all work just fine. Does Taurus build some duds? Sure they do. So does S&W, Ruger, Kahr, and etc, etc. Don't believe me? Just go to the forums and read. You'll find all kinds of problems being talked about no matter what the brand is. All a buyer can do is first do your homework about the particular gun your are thinking of buying to make sure it's getting good reports from the field. Second is to inspect the particular gun you are about to purchase to make sure it is free of defects. I have followed these rules and had very few problems with any gun I purchase no matter what brand it is.

tlm225
January 19, 2011, 08:49 AM
While I don't hate the Judge, I just have no use for it. What's it for?

Self defense against a two legged critter would be better handled by any number of conventional handguns with JHP ammo. I wouldn't chose a .410 for a personal defense shotgun, why in the world would putting it in a hangun make it effective with buck or slug?

Snakes? If a snake is close enough to be a threat to you it can be easily dispatched by a CCI shotshell from a .38, .44, .45 and yes, even the lowly .22.

rodfac
January 19, 2011, 08:49 AM
In tests here on the farm, a friend's Judge would not penetrate a fence rail (1x6) at 5 yds distance with Federal buckshot rounds. The .45 LC loads, cowboy ammunition, keyholed at that same distance.

The trigger pull was enormous; his wife basically unable to pull it.

Overall quality was very poor.

And finally, ta dah, it's without a doubt, the ugliest hand gun I've ever seen. An advertising gimmick if I've ever seen one.

Rodfac

LouCap
January 19, 2011, 08:51 AM
I don't hate it, in fact, I'm looking to buy a Polymer Public Defender right now. Why? Well, for one thing it's a novelty, but a novelty that seems to work. I've watched plenty of regular folk on You Tube firing mixed ammo at plywood, water jugs, whatever. Their results seem sufficent for me to consider the Judge as car gun, boat gun, trail gun, our even a home defense weapon when something goes bump in the night. With mixed rounds in the weapon (slugs with 45 LC), I think it will deter or eliminate a threat.

Do l own other firearms? Yes. Is the Judge perfect? No. But, it's also not the pariah of the firearms world that some would make out out to be here and in other forums.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

hydroholic
January 19, 2011, 09:05 AM
Taurus is by no means the best made hanguns. They have had their share of problems. But I have to laugh at the ones who bash the fact that its being portrayed as a self defence weapon. It may not be as good as the more well used various calibers and guns but it WILL do the job.My stepfather has never shot his with the .45 cartridge. I finally shot his this past weekend. I shot it with the .410 in buckshot at target from 25 feet away and anybody that had been standing would have been dead or at least immobilized . I then shot it from 25 and 50 feet away with the .45 cartridge. It was just as accurate as my 1911 model .45 and if that wont stop an intruder then what will? As for shooting it with the .410 for home defense, I don't know how big of homes most of you live in, but 25 feet is longer than the length and width of any room in most homes. And besides you do have more than the one shot. I will guarantee you thay if an intruder came into my home and I got off a shot with a judge loaded wit .410 buckshot before the intruder, if he was carrying, I would drop him before he got a chance. I would not hesitate to use it as a home defense weapon and wouldnt want to be the poor bastard at the other end of the barrel! As for " Why all the hate for the Judge", I don't think it so much the hate for the judge as it is hate for Taurus because of the problems with some of their guns and customer service.

jimbob86
January 19, 2011, 09:32 AM
Well, for one thing it's a novelty, but a novelty that seems to work.

...... work for what? Getting gulibble people to buy it, apparently......

I shot it with the .410 in buckshot at target from 25 feet away and anybody that had been standing would have been dead or at least immobilized .

Your guarantee is meaningless: Marshall & Sanow have published books on the matter of terminal ballistics, and nobody believes their ....... stuff..... either.

Show me some numbers: velocity @ 25' (you'd better armor that Chrony, given the "stellar" accuracy of buckshot out of that short rifled barrel!)and projectiles weights. Hell, save the Chrony- show me muzzle velocity. Then show me how it's ME and terminal performance is superior to a gun that weighs as much, is the same size, and has the same atrocious recoil.

I then shot it from 25 and 50 feet away with the .45 cartridge. It was just as accurate as my 1911 model .45

Maybe for you..... but if that was really the case, then you'd see folks shooting bullseye matches with them......not to mention that Ol' Slabsides is concealable IWB ..... "Is that guy carrying a Judge SOB, or did he poop his pants?"

rclark
January 19, 2011, 09:38 AM
d accuracy with the .45 Colt is less than stellar. In this case ... does it really matter? At 5, 10, 15 feet? A guy is breaking into your car... You going to miss? Crawling into your house window with a knife in hand? And who wants to look down the bore of a .45 Colt (as compared to a itty bitty .22,.32,.38) . I'd say a bit more intimidating.

jimbob86
January 19, 2011, 09:40 AM
And who wants to look down the bore of a .45 Colt (as compared to a itty bitty .22,.32,.38) . I'd say a bit more intimidating.
__________________


For home defense, the BG could be looking down the bore of a 12 guage, and it would cost less, and be more effective.

L_Killkenny
January 19, 2011, 09:59 AM
The anti-Judge thing is almost entirely an "internet" thing. Let's face it, gun owners of the internet world are not a very large cross section of gun owners in general. We argue about the smallest things, bash anything that doesn't fit our mold of what a gun is suppose to be. And then this information is regurgitated by others that have no experience with what ever gun we are trying to bash on that given day.

The fact that the Judge sells so well is a good example. Are the Judge buyers nothing but a bunch of dupes that have bought into marketing or are we just a bunch of wanna-be gun writers? You make the call.

But like I state in many threads, the truth is usually someplace in the middle. The Judge and Taurus guns in general aren't nearly as useless as you read on message boards nor is it the end all in SD that Taurus would leave you to believe.

Personally, I think the Judge has more potential for packing in rough country with snakes and things that might try to eat you than for SD. But I wouldn't want to be a BG on the other end of someone pulling the trigger either. I'm sure it will stop a fight just fine.

Are there guns that look better, conceal better, handle better and are more accurate? Darn tootin there is. But don't believe everything you read about how lame it is either.

LK

jimbob86
January 19, 2011, 10:23 AM
The fact that the Judge sells so well is a good example. Are the Judge buyers nothing but a bunch of dupes that have bought into marketing or are we just a bunch of wanna-be gun writers? You make the call.



OK: Yes. .... and yes. I'm writing, giving my opinion about guns and gun related stuff..... It'd be great if I were good enough at it to get get paid for it, but then again, I don't think I'm PC enough to be employed by any of the gun rags: Witness American Hunter's Handgun of the Year for the Judge in '08: I'd have called the baby ugly, and lost a bid advertising account...... but I'd have been honest. Choices have to be made......

Let's face it, gun owners of the internet world are not a very large cross section of gun owners in general.

And gun owners are not a very large cross section of the general population, either. That's probably a good thing, as a good portion of the general population is functionally illiterate.

I think the Judge has more potential for packing in rough country with snakes and things that might try to eat you than for SD.

...... ummmm.....errrr..... So the Judge is now good bear medicine?!?!?! If you feel .45 LC is adequate for bear defense, there are lighter guns to be packing in that chambering.

jmr40
January 19, 2011, 10:33 AM
I think the Judge is marketed towards new gun owners who are clueless about what a handgun is supposed to do. They give them the false impression that a 410 from a revolver is a good choice for SD. In reality it has always been a poor choice from an 18" shotgun barrel. How it is suddenly supposed to be so good from a 3" revolver barrel baffles me.

Loaded with 5 rounds of 45 colt you now have a very effective gun. But there are much better choices that hold more ammo, are smaller, more accurate and will cost less.

totaldla
January 19, 2011, 10:49 AM
The only people I know who considered buying a judge were noobs who thought reality was like a video game and believed what they saw on TV. The Judge is marketed towards them.

There are a lot of really naive people out there. There are guys who put giant tires on their trucks without changing the gearing and discover their truck is worthless. There are overweight women on 4" stiletto high heels. And people even voted for Obama. There's no end the stupidity that people will invest themselves in with the right marketing gimmick.

The Judge was created for stupid people. I can't blame Taurus - there's obviously a market :)

4runnerman
January 19, 2011, 10:52 AM
I do not own a Judge either ,but have seen one in action Results were not bad

20 yards-000 buck--All pellets stayed in 2 foot circle,All pellets penetrated all the way through 3/4 inch plywood. End all of SD-NO ,,Will it work-YES.

So the way i see it,, I can take one bullet from your gun or 3 to 6 from a judge, I can tell you if it went through a 3/4 inch plywood ,IT will go through you too,every bit as good as a 9MM,40 SW. Is it a gimmick-Yes,Does it work-Yes.

L_Killkenny
January 19, 2011, 10:59 AM
While I can't argue with you "in general" about the cross section of the american populous do you really believe the cross section of this or any message board (on any subject) is really any different? Just because you're here means I'm suppose to take what you say as the gospel? I don't personally know you or anyone else on this site. In general, your opinion is that you are right and that anyone that disagrees with you is wrong. That's natural, everyone is like that. But that doesn't mean you are right. Take a sports message board..... You take a stadium filled with 50,000 football fans and a very small % of them get on that teams message board at any time let alone daily. They're also the ones that call for the coach to be fired one week and the next are wanting him to have a lifetime contract. They're the zealots and thus act like they are. Gun message boards are not much different.

Basically, I read much, learn what others think and then take it with a grain of salt because I realize the information is exactly what I paid for it. That is also my recommendation for anyone wanting to get on a message board to research any subject let alone guns. It would also be my advice for someone researching a gun via the gun rags. Neither is necessarily bad but neither are written in stone either.

As far as a .45LC being acceptable for bear defense...... Black bear without a doubt and brown bears with a good load. It's basically equal to a .44 in handloads. Can a Judge handle those loads? I don't know so I'll not speak to that.

But when did I mention bears. I said "things that might try to eat you". The key word being might. 99.9% of the U.S. population doesn't live in places where brown/grizzly bears frequent nor do very many people even visit those places. And when they do, very very few even glimpse one let alone have an encounter. For the record, examples of what might try to eat you: Snakes, dogs, coyotes, mountain lions, black bears, hogs, Javelina, any furry critter with distemper or rabies, etc, etc.

Back to the Judge and why all the hate.....I stated that the Judge is not as bad as the internet would have you believe. Yes, there are better, lighter .45's for carry. Again, truth is someplace in the middle. You don't like my opnion, fine. It's worth what you paid for it.

Magnum Wheel Man
January 19, 2011, 11:00 AM
So the way i see it,, I can take one bullet from your gun or 3 to 6 from a judge, I can tell you if it went through a 3/4 inch plywood ,IT will go through you too,every bit as good as a 9MM,40 SW.

um.... no... round balls do not penitrate anywhere near as much as bullets...

they generally don't weigh as much as the bullets, so don't carry the same initial energy, or retain as much

I load both round balls & light bullets in my early black powder cartridge era revolvers... light weight bullets with light charges penitrate 3-4 times more than round balls with the same charge

still the equal of 3/4" of penitration in wood "could" certainly be lethal but equal diameter bullets will always penitrate further than a round ball when fired at similar velocities

... BTW... I'm building a gun ( a Contender ) very similar to the Judge as far as using the .410, for shooting skunks & farm yard varmints to keep in my truck... I could have bought a Judge, but a fast follow up shot was less important than the lack of barrel / cylinder gap for my tactical light, for my purposes ( I often see the skunks at night ) so I can see the Judge's purpose ( almost bought one ) but, IMO, there is almost always a better option, including for self defense...

jimbob86
January 19, 2011, 11:16 AM
Yes, there are better, lighter .45's ....

So why would anyone making an informed decison buy one? The answer is they are not making an informed decision: they bought the marketing campaign, and are ..... well, I think the word was "dupes". Either that or they enjoy silly stuff, and have money to burn ....... it's their money, though ...... Me, I enjoy pointing and laughing at silly stuff. It's free, too ..... call it "hate" if you want to, but that does not make the Judge any less foolish. Maybe somebody who puts some thought into a Personal Defense gun and wants an opinion that wasn't bought with favors or advertising dollars will read this thread, and buy something better....... then everybody's happy..... except folks with buyer's remorse, and Taurus.

MADISON
January 19, 2011, 11:39 AM
To me a revolver that shoots a 45 Colt and .410 Shotgun is a joke.
The .45 Ong Colt is OK but, the .410 shotgun is too small for self-defense.
A 45LC and a 20 gage would be large but, effective for self-defense.

Back in the 1980's somebody came out with a 45-70 5 shot revolver.
I wanted one but, coould not find one...

4runnerman
January 19, 2011, 11:53 AM
Again as always 2 assumptions are being made when the Judge comes up
1- gun bought for self defense
2- gun is not leathel

The guy i know that has it bought it for fun as i think most people do. He carries a 40 sw for SD.
Sillieness is in the eye of the beholder. Things i think are silly are not to other people. Buying an American made car-Pure sillieness to me. Not to a lot of other people,But i do not laugh at them or talk behind their back when they do buy one. Personnel opinions are just that (Personnel).
Maybe we need to wait a few years and find out some how if possable,just how many people did use the Judge for SD and how many people died from being shot by one before we start saying it is no good for SD.:D

I do not own one just because i choose to spend my money on other things,But if i could i would just for fun at the range shooting cans and bottles. Heck it's a baby shotgun(kinda)

rclark
January 19, 2011, 12:18 PM
For home defense, the BG could be looking down the bore of a 12 guage, and it would cost less, and be more effective. +1. But you can't pack the 12guage in your pocket, or car easily either. Sort of a one type of use defense :) . Personally, I have nothing against the Judge. Don't have one, never shot one. If some one gave me one, I'd take it. Could be 'fun' to shoot a bit of .410 out of it as well as .45 Colt. And at short range it's go'nah hurt what you hit regardless... Obviously not for precise target practice or long range shooting, but blasting cans or bottles might just be fun at short range! More of a curiosity thing.... Hey, you can't be 'serious' all the time :D . Just saying... I have a CA .44Spec Bulldog for my town CC carry and carry a Ruger SA .45 Colt in the hills.

chiefr
January 19, 2011, 12:34 PM
I do not hate the Judge. IMHO, the gun is nothing more than a short barreled 410 shotgun. I found the Judge patterns quite well at 7 yards with lead shot.

However and IMHO the accuracy of the Judge with the 45 Colt rounds is another story. I get 12 inch groups with random key holeings at 7 yards. If you use it as a 410 shotgun, it is OK.

WildBill45
January 19, 2011, 12:51 PM
All .454 Casulls shoot .45 Colt, and who needs the 410?

To get the 410 you GET a gun you don't need, the gun is overly long, due to the cylinder length for the .410, to carry CCW, but the barrel is too short to shoot far!

If you can't carry it CCW, or shoot far otherwise, what is the point? Putting two heads on a duck doesn't mean it won't QUACK!

jimbob86
January 19, 2011, 01:14 PM
Quote:
For home defense, the BG could be looking down the bore of a 12 guage, and it would cost less, and be more effective.

+1. But you can't pack the 12guage in your pocket, or car easily either.

You can't pack a judge in your pocket, either. I'd think concealing that big ungainly thing would be well nigh impossible......

..... and as for leaving a gun in your car, that is as foolish as buying a Taurus Judge: You wouldn't leave $400 or $500 in cash in your car, would you? And certainly not 400 or 500 bucks that would be dangerous in the wrong hands..... if so, you are irresponsible. Unless your car is never parked outside your garage, and never left unattended on the street .....

For the price they are asking (Cabela's wants $499!) you could bet a good, reliable, concealable firearm that delivers adequate penetration and better accuracy than the Judge offers. It's a novelty and in a few years you'll see them in pawn shops for 100 bucks..... wait.... accounting for inflation, you'll get what you paid for them, but $500 bucks won't buy a tank of gas.......

8shot357
January 19, 2011, 03:32 PM
Because it's not a S&W?:p

spacecoast
January 19, 2011, 03:51 PM
and as for leaving a gun in your car, that is as foolish as buying a Taurus Judge: You wouldn't leave $400 or $500 in cash in your car, would you? And certainly not 400 or 500 bucks that would be dangerous in the wrong hands..... if so, you are irresponsible. Unless your car is never parked outside your garage, and never left unattended on the street .....


You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but labeling in situ car carry irresponsible is a stretch (in my opinion).

If leaving a gun in my locked car ensures that I have one with me and within easy reach if/when I need it, then I will (and do). A $500 investment is not that big a deal to some, and I for one have never had one of my cars broken into in 30+ years of owning multiple cars (I currently have four scattered around the country). If someone breaks into my car and steals my gun and commits a crime with it, they are responsible for breaking the law, not me, and there are numerous other legal and illegal ways they could have obtained a different gun. No, I wouldn't be happy about it, but I would be obtaining a replacement gun ASAP.

</rant>

jimbob86
January 19, 2011, 03:53 PM
Because it's not a S&W?

That "Governor" is the same dumb idea, only twice the price.

jimbob86
January 19, 2011, 03:58 PM
If leaving a gun in my locked car ensures that I have one with me and within easy reach if/when I need it, then I will (and do).

Carrying a gun would ensure that. Leaving one unattended in a car makes it just a desirable item to steal. In this "Age of Information", the fact that you have a Carry Permit is supposed to be Confidential, but I will remind that more than 2 people know you have a permit/Carry a gun, and "Two may keep a Secret, if one is dead."

markj
January 19, 2011, 03:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hIcKkKID8k


Dont like it , well then dont buy it. Why do some folks feel the need to dump on something someone else likes? If it isnt for you, move on and get something that is and post here about it.

I know a few farmers got these and like them a lot. Seen a few yotes, several coons and a cat or two have fallen to the judge.

Same thing with the 22 crap, it isnt good enough, well go get shot by one and get back to me on that.

Better yet come out to the country and shoot a few guns, then you may have a valid "judgement" :)

moxie
January 19, 2011, 04:03 PM
Friend of mine bought one (the light version) a few months ago. Out of the box it had to go back to Taurus for work. Got it back promptly and it now shoots just fine. I tried it yesterday. With .45 Colt it's pretty accurate at the 7-10 yards we tested it. No complaints there. This one has the orange hi-viz front sight and it provides a very nice sight picture. Easy to pick up. Recoil isn't too bad and the trigger is fine.

Performance with the .410 was less than stellar. We didn't have any buckshot but did have some #4 and # 8. At 7 yds. it hit the target all right but quite a wide pattern of about 20-24 inches. The amazing part is that the pattern was shaped like a donut with both the #4 and #8. In other words, hits in a circular pattern but none in a ~8" donut hole in the middle. You can see it hit this way. Amazing! I wouldn't trust this for self defense, but the jury is out until we try with some buckshot or actual SD loads developed especially for the Judge. Only a guess, but I'm thinking the rifling is causing the shot to rotate outwards circumferentially resulting in the donut-shaped pattern.

rclark
January 19, 2011, 04:08 PM
Don't like it , well then don't buy it. Yep!

But human nature says we got to comment one way or the other. Some swear by there DA S&Ws which walk on water so to speak (I personally think most are functional but ugly, but hey). I like my Single Actions, the prettiest guns in the world IMO. So liking or disliking the Judge only comes natural :p .

spacecoast
January 19, 2011, 04:11 PM
Carrying a gun would ensure that

No it wouldn't, where would I put my gun when I go to work, where carry is prohibited? As noted, the slight risk of loss is well worth having it with me in the car.

shortwave
January 19, 2011, 04:47 PM
nate45
By now you kinda get the feel for 'the hate' for the Judge.

The marketing ploys used by Taurus(and most likely-soon by S&W about the Governor) as an almost magical kind of SD weapon carried by judges all over the country, was pitiful to say the least and most likely geared to those less knowledgeable in shooting. For that, I say Taurus was wrong for the way they marketed!

I own /shoot a Judge and can assure you I don't have to look very hard to find a more capable/logical SD weapon.

That being said, it would also be ignorant of me to say the Judge would never work as a SD weapon.

It would also be ignorant for me to say that every gun I own thats not idealy suited for SD is a waste of money or that I was stupid for owning it.

posted by totalda: The Judge was created for stupid people.

Thats about as arrogant/ignorant statement as I've seen here. Even for the internet.:rolleyes:

Simply put, I have as much fun shooting the Judge as I do my black powder guns or bows.

If you buy the Judge, realize it would be adequate for dispatching snakes and small/medium four-legged vermin. Realize its limitations in SD situations against two-legged vermin. Most importantly realize that all guns are not just for SD and the Judge is a blast to shoot.

FrankenMauser
January 19, 2011, 05:03 PM
In this case ... does it really matter? At 5, 10, 15 feet? A guy is breaking into your car... You going to miss? Crawling into your house window with a knife in hand? And who wants to look down the bore of a .45 Colt (as compared to a itty bitty .22,.32,.38) . I'd say a bit more intimidating.

When pointed directly at your head, the muzzle of any firearm appears 2-3 feet larger in diameter, than it really is.

totaldla
January 19, 2011, 05:34 PM
Thats about as arrogant/ignorant statement as I've seen here. Even for the internet.


No, the statement "The Judge was created for stupid people" is entirely correct. People do all sorts of stupid things and clever marketeers figure out ways to get people and their money to part.

fsmitka
January 19, 2011, 07:08 PM
I don't know about hate, I leave that to the Liberals. However, shooting .410 shot out of a 3 or 4 inch barrel, your kidding right? What exactly can you do with this thing? Was it marketing hype? But, if you like the weapon, I say right on!
In my mind, if you want to shoot a .45 then get a Smith or a Ruger Single. Better quality all around. How much penetration can you achieve with .410 shot? Point blank range you may be fine, how about 25 to 50 feet? Sorry, I just don't get it.

LouCap
January 19, 2011, 07:45 PM
...... work for what? Getting gulibble people to buy it, apparently......"

Hmm, interesting. I'm assuming the word you meant to use was "gullible", which I assure you I am not. I'm not some hayseed who is all mesmerized by the big fancy Taurus marketing machine. I just think the gun is different and would be useful as a weapon in the close quarters of a vehicle or a home. It is not the panacea for all that ails the world of firearms. It's just a gun.

Now, given the vitriol you've been spewing about the Judge, I just have to ask...what happened in your life to make you hate Taurus and all they create so much?!?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

fsmitka
January 19, 2011, 07:50 PM
Try this instead. Then go to Walmart and buy a HR single shotgun in .410. Cost around $100. Now you have two good weapons that actually have a purpose.

LouCap
January 19, 2011, 08:02 PM
I have a SW model 65 and a Mossberg 590 mariner...so I've got those bases covered, thanks. Maybe I just want something different and unique, is that so wrong?


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

fsmitka
January 19, 2011, 08:26 PM
No. If you like the weapon, go for it. A lot of people think that 9mm Glocks are junk. I like them and carry one without reservation.

LouCap
January 19, 2011, 08:30 PM
No. If you like the weapon, go for it. A lot of people think that 9mm Glocks are junk. I like them and carry one without reservation.

Now we agree on something! I carried a Glock 9mm on duty for a decade until my agency switched to Glock .45's!

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

fsmitka
January 19, 2011, 08:36 PM
I like the high cap .45 I bought an XD .45 and I feel VERY secure with it.

qwik
January 19, 2011, 08:47 PM
I have read thru lots of hate, but still cannot hate the idea, A 410 pistol 28 even better. If i had the $$ i would love a truck shotgun pistol :D but i have a long want list. Next buy surplus military rifle

jimbob86
January 20, 2011, 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by jimbob86
...... work for what? Getting gulibble people to buy it, apparently......"

Hmm, interesting. I'm assuming the word you meant to use was "gullible", which I assure you I am not. I'm not some hayseed who is all mesmerized by the big fancy Taurus marketing machine. I just think the gun is different and would be useful as a weapon in the close quarters of a vehicle or a home. It is not the panacea for all that ails the world of firearms. It's just a gun.

Now, given the vitriol you've been spewing about the Judge, I just have to ask...what happened in your life to make you hate Taurus and all they create so much?!?



Throwing the "hater" label around..... and I suppose you think I'm a racist because I point and laugh at the idiots walking down the street holding their saggy pants up with one hand so as not to have them fall down around their ankles and trip themselves....... I don't hate Taurus, but I refuse to not "call the baby ugly" because it's not PC: this is not a good gun, the marketing campaign was disingenuous (at best), and people who bought into it.... either did not make an informed decision, or chose...... poorly. Oh, hell, cut the crap: If they thought this was a good value for a SD gun, they just are not very bright..... right up there with the extreme saggy pants brigade.

My question to you: Why is it that you are so emotionally invested in either the Judge itself or Taurus in general that you are leaping to the defense of such a craptastic product with a less than honest marketing campaign? Or is it a financial motivation? Are you on the advertising sales team at American Hunter or some such? This is not a good SD gun. It's not a good shotgun. It's not good at much of anything but parting fools from their money, and I point and laugh and that makes me a "hater"? Sticks and stones, dude.... say what you want about me, but you can not say with any sort of honesty tha this is a good gun, or that Taurus' marketing of it was at all ethical. They sold it as a Self Defense gun, knowing full well that it wasn't as good for that purpose as some of their other products......

Big Bill
January 20, 2011, 01:13 AM
Why all the Judge hate?They're ugly and Taurus makes them. Nuf said.

LockedBreech
January 20, 2011, 01:36 AM
Taurus has a bad reputation (deservedly so, in many opinions including my own) and the Judge is a gun that is confused about its place in life.

That said, I'd be happy to have a shooter on one side with a Judge, and the shooter other side with a Hi-Point.

The important part is, they are SHOOTING.

They are about shooting sports. They probably care about RKBA. They are likely NRA members like ourselves sending constant barrages of money at the enemies of the Second Amendment.

Buy 'em up, people, any that catch your eye. Not my choice, but I'm not here to make your choices for you.

Single Six
January 20, 2011, 03:59 AM
I don't hate them. I also don't look down on anyone who wants one or buys one. To each his own...I just won't buy one, because they strike me as an answer in search of a question.

4runnerman
January 20, 2011, 06:59 AM
JimBob-- Hi 4runnerman here.Couple questions for you

Why do you think this thing is crap? (real reasons) not your opinion:)
Have you ever shot one or ever seen one in action?
I do have respect for what you say as i have read someother posts you have replied to and i can tell you are knowlegable,But do you really honestly think if you got shot with this thing from say 7 to 15 feet with either 000 buck or the 45 that you would walk away from it? Im very intrested in your reply with out the hog wash,just facts. Did you run ballistic test? Have you seen what it will do to a 3/4 inch chunk of plywood? Take out the Taurus factor and give me a answer.

Leejack
January 20, 2011, 07:08 AM
Calling judge owners stupid is simply not nice. There a judge owners that own glocks, blackhawks, cz's, 1911s, etc.

Now, if glock had made the judge, it would be much more accepted. Even those who don't like it would be less vocal about it, they would say they don't like it, but they wouldn't carry on until the end of time bashing it.

Threads like this are nothing more than an opportunity to bash Taurus, which this forum is famous for.

I don't have a judge and I don't want one; but for those who do, fine, have fun with it.

I do think the judge would be a good snake charmer. Also, if a BG approached your car with intent to harm and you rolled down your window and showed him the business end of the judge, that worthless 410 with 3' barrel might not be as worthless as you think. This gun wasn't created to impress those who live their life based on that "shoot it into the bowl of jelly and check penetration crowd", it was created to impress the un sub (got that from criminal minds, LOL!) when he arrives at your car window.

LouCap
January 20, 2011, 08:15 AM
Throwing the "hater" label around..... and I suppose you think I'm a racist because I point and laugh at the idiots walking down the street holding their saggy pants up with one hand so as not to have them fall down around their ankles and trip themselves....... I don't hate Taurus, but I refuse to not "call the baby ugly" because it's not PC: this is not a good gun, the marketing campaign was disingenuous (at best), and people who bought into it.... either did not make an informed decision, or chose...... poorly. Oh, hell, cut the crap: If they thought this was a good value for a SD gun, they just are not very bright..... right up there with the extreme saggy pants brigade.

My question to you: Why is it that you are so emotionally invested in either the Judge itself or Taurus in general that you are leaping to the defense of such a craptastic product with a less than honest marketing campaign? Or is it a financial motivation? Are you on the advertising sales team at American Hunter or some such? This is not a good SD gun. It's not a good shotgun. It's not good at much of anything but parting fools from their money, and I point and laugh and that makes me a "hater"? Sticks and stones, dude.... say what you want about me, but you can not say with any sort of honesty tha this is a good gun, or that Taurus' marketing of it was at all ethical. They sold it as a Self Defense gun, knowing full well that it wasn't as good for that purpose as some of their other products......

I never called you a hater, and I have no idea if you're a racist. I merely asked why you "hate" the Taurus Judge. If that word bothers you, feel free to substitute another word, like "abhor", "dislike" our even "despise". The fact remains that your posts are just rude put downs of anyone who dares to have a differing opinion on this weapon. So much so, that one had to wonder what happened in your past to bring these caustic responses to the surface. I'm guessing you had a bad experience with Taurus, or a Judge, or at least I hope so. Because if you have no experience with either your fervent "dislike" just seems misplaced.

And for what it's worth, I don't love either the company our the firearm itself. I just don't see the need to condemn or insult anyone who would consider buying their products for whatever reason. Sticks and stones indeed...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

P97
January 20, 2011, 08:18 AM
For the Judge Haters, take a look at this announcement:
http://gunmart.blogspot.com/2011/01/taurus-raging-judge.html

Leejack
January 20, 2011, 08:20 AM
P97, great to see you my friend!

Still carrying that "gorgeous" P90!

best wishes,

Lee

spacecoast
January 20, 2011, 08:32 AM
It seems only a matter of time until Taurus releases the 10 gauge ultralight pocket pistol. It could be really really small as you only need (or could use) one round. The wimps among us could opt for the 12 gauge model.

hydroholic
January 20, 2011, 08:32 AM
Looks better than the .410 version. The longer barrel is a plus from an accuracy standpoint. Should be fun to shoot although ammunition wont be cheap. Gives the Judge and Taurus bashers something else to bitch and complain about for months to come.

skoro
January 20, 2011, 08:44 AM
I just want the despisers of the Judge to articulate to me why they hate it.

It's way too big for a handgun.

It's real ugly.

It doesn't perform well at all with 410 shells and there are much better options available for 45LC.

4runnerman
January 20, 2011, 08:55 AM
It doesn't perform well at all with 410 shells ???

where did you get that info from?
The ones i have seen perform very,very well with 410 shells. And no one said there is not better options.

jhenry
January 20, 2011, 09:00 AM
Perform well at doing what? Firing?

skoro
January 20, 2011, 09:09 AM
where did you get that info from?


From this test:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41_2.htm

Lessons Learned:

3. Buckshot out of a .410 does not penetrate enough to be an effective personal defense load.

4. The rifled slug was also a disappointment and did not have enough weight or power or penetration to be effective as a defense load.

4runnerman
January 20, 2011, 09:17 AM
Buckshot out of a .410 does not penetrate enough to be an effective personal defense load

I would call that test BS big time. I have seen this gun in action totally devistate a 3/4 inch thick plywood peice. Unless your skin is stronger than that??? How far does it need to penitrate? Lets see--2 inches is heart,3 inches put it into lungs,, Get the point?.Does not need to sink in 12 inches

I see the guy said 4 1/2 inches penetration into BG Then her spews More BS by saying that is not enough penetration. 4 1/2 inches is almost half way through human body. Massive damage to,Heart,lungs,Kidneys,spleen,ect ect.
Last i check those are vital organs needed to live. A pencil 2 inches long stuck in your heart,,, Your Dead,That is only a pencil people at 2 inches,lets take lead and do it 4 1/2 inches???,Dead again

How far does it need to penetrate? 24 inches ,so it can come out other side and hit others?.

It's hard to beleive how nieve people can be. Soon it will be nothing less than a 50 BMG needed to stop someone.

Mike Irwin
January 20, 2011, 09:18 AM
When I was with American Rifleman magazine we tested one of the original Thunder 5s.

Most of us were HIGHLY underwhelmed.

Firing shot out of one of these (as opposed to buckshot or slugs) is NOT a good idea. Velocity is too low to ensure penetration into hard objects like wood, which could result in pellets rebounding right back at the shooter.

We found that out the hard way with the T5. The guy shooting it and I were both peppered very painfully with No. 6 shot that came back off the target nailers.

Personally I think these "revolver shotguns," any of them no matter who makes them, are an answer in search of a question that has never been asked and should never even be thought of.

hydroholic
January 20, 2011, 11:07 AM
000 .410 buckshot shot from the judge will not penetrate enough to be used as personal defense? Well unless you are being mugged by a bear or some other decent sized wild animal,I would say that is the most rediculous and absurd comment that I have ever heard, well except the one that followed that one up by saying the rifled .410 slug would not penetrate well enough either! I don't know if that is one of the funniest things I have ever heard or if it's just so stupid thats it makes you laugh. Come on! A rifled .410 slug shot out of a .410 shotgun or the judge is more than likely gonna kill your ass and thats just that.As for the 000 buckshot, I have shot it out of my stepfathers judge and I know what it will do and would feel comfortable puttin a few into an intruder. I think some people just publish **** and kinda embelish their opinions and call it fact or true test results. That test above is total BS and I can't believe anyone would believe that crap having not shot a judge personaly. Bashing is one thing, but this is just getting plain stupid.

Leejack
January 20, 2011, 11:17 AM
I think we should create a sub forum under the General Handgun section and call it the Taurus Bashing Forum.

That way we could consolidate all these wonderful threads; right now, they're scattered all over the place.

It saddens me that there are so many clever cowboys out there that out-do each other on a daily basis, but missed their true calling. Sit-com writers can make some big bucks, yet their talents are being wasted in an internet forum.

Reading this stuff is so entertaining, I just don't want to miss any of it.:cool:

Let's consolidate guys, come on!

Mike Irwin
January 20, 2011, 11:34 AM
OK, Hydroholic, what quantifiable data do you have that indicates to you that 000 buckshot or a slug out of a short-barreled pistol penetrates adequate and consistently enough to be considered viable for defensive use?

Feelings, speculation, and intuition don't qualify as quantifiable data.


"I have seen this gun in action totally devistate a 3/4 inch thick plywood peice."

That would be absolutely spectacular if your attacker was made out of a single sheet of 3/4" plywood.

Plywood has about as much in common with human flesh as my bank account does with Bill Gates' bank account.

Remember, folks, the baseline for adequate penetration is laid out in FBI's testing and generally consists of a MINIMUM of 12" of penetration.

As far as I know, NO tests have ever been conducted that show buckshot out of a .410 as coming even remotely close to that; I don't know about slugs.

That means that, on its face, there's no empirical evidence at all that buckshot out of one of these short-barreled revolvers would have the potential to cause much more than a nasty flesh wound.

COULD you kill someone with buckshot out of one of these critters? Of course you could. You could kill someone with a Swingline stapler, too.

But indications are pretty solid that neither one is a particularly good tool for doing so.

L_Killkenny
January 20, 2011, 11:36 AM
It doesn't perform well at all with 410 shells and there are much better options available for 45LC.

I assume your talking the shot shells, right? The don't preform well on what? People? Not gonna argue that although I'm not gonna stand up as a test dumby. What about pest and varmints? What about snakes? I see numberous post that talk about how lame the .410 shot is but everyone seems to avoid the buckshot loads that are available. Why is that? What of the fact that while not a good platform for the .45 colt the gun and round are more than capable for SD and the round itself is one of the best fight stoppers. The fact is that a Judge is more versatile than any other .45 colt gun made. Just not for the narrow minded use of SD some people have.

What it comes down to is the fact that Taurus' is marketing the Judge as a SD gun. I think people here at TFL see that and completely forget about what other uses the gun may have. Guess thats what happens on a board that is almost entirely dedicated to the subject of SD but SD is not the end all to the uses for a handgun. More handguns are used everyday for hunting, plinking, pest control, distroying injured and sick livestock, etc than for SD. Most gun buyers never see a Taurus ad or visit a message board. That doesn't make them dumb. As a matter of fact they may be better informed because they aren't constantly exposed to the bunk and misinformation spread around.

LK

jimbob86
January 20, 2011, 11:36 AM
Why do you think this thing is crap? (real reasons) not your opinion
Have you ever shot one or ever seen one in action?


Yes, I have shot one. I shot my Uncle's when they first came out. We set up a 3'x4' piece of cardboard at 15 feet as a target.....

.410 2 1/2" #6 shot ..... empty spot in the middle of the "pattern", and some of the shot did not even hit the target: You hit everything but what you were aiming at. Worthless as a snake gun.

.45 LC .... the best we could do was about 4" groups at 15 FEET. His Vaquero did much better.

They have buckshot loads for these..... they used them here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWFGsTsNxa8

Watch the video.... impressive, huh? Not really, if you pay attention, and watch the "behind the scenes" stuff.

They are shooting those overripe watermellons from 3 feet away with the 3" cylinder version of the Judge, yet the lady draws the 2 1/2" version (still looks huge!) from her purse ....... on the high speed camera, you can see the buckshot has spread about 3 or 4 inches in 3 feet.... what's that spread gonna be at 21 feet? Bystanders? Where are those stray shot going? That's YOUR liability there..... bad plan.

The buckshot has also been shown to not penetrate sufficiently...

... so you are left with .45 LC..... 5 shots out of a ginormous platform ..... You could get the same ballistics out of a .44 Charter Arms Bulldog in a much smaller package at a similar price point.

So it's not a good gun..... why do I dislike it? Maybe it's the way it is marketed..... maybe it's that people who know better (I'm lookin' at YOU, NRA!) named it "Handgun of the Year" in 2008..... but that probably had a lot more to do with ad sales than quality of the product.....

..... but I think it's the silly people that seem to think that because it will go through 3/4" plywood, or destroy overripe fruit, it is a good self defense gun that really get my goat..... they bought the crappy thing, so now they are emotionally invested in it's success: now they'll defend it to the end, ignoring evidence that it is not the Best. Thing. EVAR!

4runnerman
January 20, 2011, 12:08 PM
That would be absolutely spectacular if your attacker was made out of a single sheet of 3/4" plywood.

Plywood has about as much in common with human flesh as my bank account does with Bill Gates' bank account

Bill I guess i don't know how to reply to that one. Im under the impression your skin is stronger than 3/4 plywood?. Lets see i have a Daughter in the medical field. Im not MR Memory,but it was like somewhere around 68 foot lbs of pressure to put a 1/4 object through human skin. Im not sure what the Judge puts out but i have to think it's more than 68. And i can tell you for sure if it blasts a hole in 3/4 inch plywood it is most definetly going to put a hole in you with ease

ATW525
January 20, 2011, 12:21 PM
A person who chrono tested the Judge with 000 buck: link (http://mcb-homis.com/judge/)

The entire load of buckshot has about the same muzzle energy as a single standard pressure 124 grain 9mm round. Individually the projectiles are about the equivalent of round ball fired from an 1851 Navy, or about the same energy as a .22 rifle with a much less efficient projectile.

I have no doubt that the Judge can kill someone with 000 buck, and I imagine it stands a chance to stop an attacker. However compared to modern loadings in major handgun calibers, it seems mediocre at best. This especially true when you consider that shot placement with the Judge/buck shot combo is going to rely much more heavily on dumb luck than a conventional JHP bullet that can be aimed to a much finer degree.

Mike Irwin
January 20, 2011, 12:22 PM
And you're still not getting the concept.

What's UNDER human skin?

Muscle, fat and bone.

Where are the organs and other critical structures in the body, ones that have to be disrupted to arrive at an even remote expectation of stopping an attacker in a effective manner?

UNDER the muscle, fat and bone.

What happens if you penetrate the muscle, fat, and or bone, but DON'T reach vital structures?

In effect, you've created a nasty flesh wound.

Why do you think that the FBI requires a MINIMUM penetration of 12" plus in its testing?

Because they understand that in order to have a hope of putting an attacker down in an effective manner, you need enough penetration to GUARANTEE that you can reach those vital structures that lay beneath the skin, fat, muscle, and bone.

If simply penetrating the skin were enough to guarantee an effective stop, that means that any time any one of us cut ourselves (as I did the other night with a kitchen knife), we'd put ourselves down and out.

Penetration and ADEQUATE penetration, enough to reach those vital body structures no matter what the stance of your attacker, is what's important here, and it's what buckshot loads out of these short barreled pistols simply can't be counted on to do.

natman
January 20, 2011, 12:39 PM
Yes, the Judge would make a good snake gun. I'm not sure that it offers enough of an improvement over a 45 Colt with shotshells to warrant it's weaknesses in every other area, but I'm willing to concede that if you have a legitimate need for a gun just for snakes it's an acceptable choice.

Yes, I suppose the Judge is "fun to shoot", if that's what floats your boat. Personally, I think that buying a Judge defines a whole new meaning for the term "disposable income", but if you like it because it's "fun", be my guest.

My complaint is with the Judge is that it is a poor tool for self defense. IMO Taurus' campaign to market it as an SD tool is irresponsible. The flat discs that the Judge turns buckshot into do not penetrate well. If you don't understand sectional density and why it's important, you will not be able to intelligently discuss the use of firearms for SD, a point that is proven several times in this thread.

Yes, it's a gun and yes, it's dangerous. The problem is that for the same size, weight and cost as a Judge there are several alternatives that will do a MUCH, MUCH better job as a self defense tool.

jimbob86
January 20, 2011, 12:45 PM
AT525, that link pretty much settles it for those that are interested in logic..... those that emotionally invested in the Judge will not be swayed by logic.

It's not that great of a gun. It is a gun, however, and beats harsh words in a fight...... If thats all you have, Carry it until you can get a better one.

jimbob86
January 20, 2011, 12:49 PM
Yes, I suppose the Judge is "fun to shoot",

Damning with faint praise, there, nat: Nearly all guns are fun to shoot, if you ask me ...... there are some stiff loadings in lightweight magnums that are only fun for a couple of shots, but those are the exception, rather than the rule!

hydroholic
January 20, 2011, 01:42 PM
Ok I will say this and I will leave it alone. At the ripe old age of 13 ,I killed a doe ( whitetail) withe a single shot .410 with 000 buck. I was sitting in a homemade ladder stand 12 ft off the ground. The deer was roughly between 10 and 15 yards from the base of the stand I was in. One shot to the shoulder area and it dropped. Didn't instantly kill it' but it didn't go anywhere either. I have killed deer with a 12 gauge shot gun with 000 buckshot shot inthe same front shoulder area that ran and had to be trailed to recover.Am I saying a .410 is better to kill deer with?Absolutenly not! Only a dumb ass would beleive that. My point is how much difference is there between the skin and muscle of a deer and a human. If anything I would say the deer is probably tougher and then there is the hair to consider as well.Now with that being said, I know there is a big difference between a long barrel shotgun and the short barreljudge,but enough difference to slowdown the velocity enough for it not penetrate human flesh and muscle enough to kill somebody? Well after shooting my stepfathers I know the answer to that question. And although I have yet to shoot a rifled slug in it ,I have shot quite a few in a .410 shotgun and have no doubt what so ever it will be extremely deadly . So as for test and ballistics info, I dont need em to convince me being I HAVE shot one personally. To the ones of you who say that it wont penetrate enough to be a good personal defense weapon, step in front of one and let somebody pull the trigger. Hmmm that would be stupid wouldn't it, almost as stupid as believing that .410 000 buckshot or a rifled slug won't penetrate enough to kill! With that being said, bash on. Hydro out.

Mike Irwin
January 20, 2011, 01:52 PM
We've already stipulated that yes, it is possible to kill someone with .410 buckshot out of one of these guns.

The problem is being able to depend on those chunks of buckshot to be able to do so repeatedly by penetrating deeply enough to disrupt vital structures, structures that support an attacker's ability to continue his attack.

I have no doubt that you killed a deer with a .410. I've seen deer killed with a .22 Short.

The question is -- could either round be depended upon to realistically and repeatedly do that, time and time again?

Every bit of actual testing that's on par with FBI testing criteria gives a clear no to that question.

If you feel comfortable enough with the combination to bet your life on it, that's all fine and good, and hopefully you'll never have to put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.

But to categorically deny scientifically verifiable and repeatable evidence is about as logical as expecting someone to be used as a testing dummy to either prove or disprove your or our points -- silly in the extreme, stupid in the maximum.

jimbob86
January 20, 2011, 02:05 PM
Slugs, buckshot, shot or .45LC ....... whatever you load the fool thing with, it still is giving less than 350 ft/lbs of muzzle energy..... and only 5 shots. A gun that big should be giving a lot more than that. Hell, just about any compact 9mm will give you that much muzzle energy in a standard loading and you get at least twice as many shots, and it'd be half the size!

Not to mention you wouldn't have to worry about stray buckshot..... and a 9 would penetrate sufficiently to actually do some good....... there ARE better tools for the job.

motorhead0922
January 20, 2011, 02:25 PM
What's a Judge for? I have a better question: What's this conversation for?

I agree with leejack. There needs to be a forum area for Taurus bashing. Then everyone could go there quickly to gossip.

shortwave
January 20, 2011, 02:32 PM
What it comes down to is Taurus is marketing the Judge as a SD gun. I think people here at TFL see that and completely forget about what other uses the gun may have.

+100 LKillkenny
I really feel sorry for the ones that have not yet grown to appreciate the fact that although a gun is very important in SD, SD can, be only a very small part of the equation for owning guns. I, for one, enjoy recreational shooting.

Being a gun hoarder(my wife's term :o), only a select, very few of the guns I own (including blackpowder and airsoft) meets my own personal criteria as a SD weapon. Naturally, my primary HD guns are a bit different than my CCW. In total for SD, I utilize 3 handguns and 1 shotgun for all my SD needs. FWIW, None of the 3 SD handguns are the Judge. Didn't buy the Judge for that purpose.

There are two safes full of long-guns,handguns and several bows in which I've collected over the last 40+ some years that are used for nothing more than recreation. As it stands, I just don't go into a gun store/shows anymore with the thought of buying SD guns and haven't for many years. Have all them I need and other than religious practice with the SD guns I own, pray to never have to use them for their intended purpose.

What I have done, is buy a Judge for recreational purpose's and as I've posted before, have had a ball with it, i.e. shooting clays gets boring with a shotgun after awhile but shooting them with the Judge presents a different,fun angle to things. By the way, we're expecting another 3"-6" of fresh snow here in Ohio today so I expect some phone calls from other Judge owners wanting to have a "snowball shoot" this weekend:D. Living in the middle of the woods, I've found many fun/practical uses for the Judge. It's worked very well for garden pest control.

As for shooting 45lc; in the safe, I own 3 other 45lc revolvers that are much better designed and therefore more accurate at all ranges, but I'll say at 10'-12' and under (most SD ranges), the person on the receiving end, being shot at with the Judge loaded with 45lc, won't be happy. Judge wasn't designed to be anything more than a SD distance gun. It's not a target gun!

Back on the "recreational " aspect. To tighten up the birdshot patterns, I've been thinking about the possibilties of making a choke for the Judge.:D. If legal and pressure's wouldn't be increased to much, I was thinking about making something similiar to the screw on 'poly choke'. Shooting against these 'young-guns' in these snowball shoots, I need all the help I can get:eek:.

If people want to hate Taurus, want to hate Taurus's advertising of the Judge or just hate the Judge period, thats ok. But when you say the Judge is useless and start attacking people, insinuating that all people that own Judge's are stupid ,idiots or fools , you should be ashamed. Some people have just been ingenious enough to figure out how to have fun with the gun. PM me if your in the area this weekend and we'll show you some fun snowball shooting;)

temmi
January 20, 2011, 02:45 PM
IMO it is just not fit for purpose… How many people would think to use a FULL SIZE .410 for a primary defense weapon? Not too many.

Cut it down to a pistol and give it to your wife…” Here Honey… this will keep you safe”

You never see penetration test for the various .410 loads… and the 45Colt accuracy suffers from the long cylinder… oh and it is overly large.

It is a gimmick gun sold as a Personal defense.

Folks should get what they want… but they should have a real idea of what they are getting and is it fit for their purpose.

temmi
January 20, 2011, 03:06 PM
Mike Irwin,

Ur killing me... wish I would have said this



"COULD you kill someone with buckshot out of one of these critters? Of course you could. You could kill someone with a Swingline stapler, too. "

Soooooo true

pesta2
January 20, 2011, 03:17 PM
NRA!) named it "Handgun of the Year" in 2008..... but that probably had a lot more to do with ad sales than quality of the product.....

+1
It has to do with all the advertisements that Taurus put in American Rifleman.

old bear
January 20, 2011, 03:51 PM
I don't hate the Taurus Judge, I just don't see the need for one.

Falcon642
January 20, 2011, 05:27 PM
Using the Judge for self defense might just require a different mindset. If I had a Judge loaded with Buckshot in a SD situation I would aim for the inner thigh or the neck.

At close range, the Judge could be quite lethal when fired at the inner thigh (hoping to hit the femoral artery) or the neck (hoping to hit the jugular vein, or the carotid artery). While these are still not easy targets, a spread of buckshot opens the possibility of firing at these targets.

The femoral artery is under approximately 2 inches of flesh with no bones protecting it. Even the low penetration of buckshot out of the Judge would easily penetrate to hit it. A cut femoral would lead to a rather quick bleed out and incapacitation (just ask anyone who has been in combat).

Now think of the neck as a possible target for a load of buckshot from the Judge. A load of buckshot to the neck would lead to rapid incapacitation in that the jugular vein is completely exposed, and the carotid artery is only protected by the adams apple.

Obviously such strategies only apply in close quarters encounters, but considering that the bad guys in my area are starting to wear body armor its something that must be considered.

Leejack
January 20, 2011, 05:38 PM
All those who think we have beaten this dead horse to death enough times, say I. LOL!:D

All those who think we should beat it some more, say nay!:D

I love this place!:) You just can't buy fun like this!

Glenn E. Meyer
January 20, 2011, 05:45 PM
Who am I to Judge this Raging controversy. I wouldn't want to buck the trend but this thread is for the birds. Could you defend this gun in public?

It's hard to gauge the all the penetrating comments.

:)

johnbt
January 20, 2011, 05:57 PM
It's a 28 ga. skeet gun for one-handed shooters.

It's a 28 ga. rabbit gun for one-handed shooters.

It's a boat anchor for small boats and doubles as seagull protection.

shortwave
January 20, 2011, 06:04 PM
All those who think we should beat it some more, say nay:D

Might as well keep this one open. Another will just pop up tomorrow.

In all total, I think the Judge bashing threads are neck-n-neck with the Glock bashing ones.:D.

jimbob86
January 20, 2011, 06:07 PM
If I had a Judge loaded with Buckshot in a SD situation I would aim for the inner thigh or the neck.



Falcon, I figure in a self defense incident, I have enough on my mind, and no time to waste to be thinking about anything other than moving and putting the front sight CoM and pressing the trigger. Worrying about specific hit location is ..... foolish.

Eliminate all that .... stuff: Keep It Simple. Choose an adequate gun with an adequate load, in a size small enough to be carried all the time, and practice getting from holstered to 2 hits CoM while not being a stationary target.

The Judge fails on so many levels: It is underpowered, doesn't penetrate well, is too big to conceal well, ...... what do these buckshot loads cost, by the way? How much practice can you afford at 75 cents to $1 a pop?

There are better tools for the job, so stop trying to come up with ways to use a poor tool: You can drive a nail with a bananna, if you dip it in liquid nitrogen first...... but you won't see many carpenters with a bananna hanging from their tool belt.....

rclark
January 20, 2011, 06:12 PM
It is underpowered Not as a .45 Colt.... .45 Colt is fine defensive round. .410 that's another story.

jimbob86
January 20, 2011, 06:38 PM
Summary Chart of Velocities compared to other sources and guns.
Load Taurus 3 inch barrel1 Taurus 4 inch barrel2 Winchester 9410 3 Stevens 38B 4
Winchester 000 buckshot 777 fps 863.6 fps N/D N/D
Sellier & Bellot 000 buckshot N/D 878.1 fps N/D 1148 fps
Remington 1/5oz slug N/D 1220 fps 1817 fps 1647 fps
Winchester 1/5oz slug N/D 1297 fps 1855 fps N/D fps
Federal 1/4oz slug 1125 fps 1198 fps 1728 fps 1662 fps
Remington #7.5 1/2oz shotshell 792 fps #6 shot 839.4 fps N/D 1136 fps
Ultramax 250gr RNFP N/D 693.3fps N/D N/D
1 American Rifle Man, "Here Comes The Judge", August 2007, pg 50.

2 Testing presented on this page.

3 Testing presented in my first 410 slug testing page.

4 Testing presented in my second and third 410 slug testing page Take 2 Take 3.


It is underpowered

Not as a .45 Colt.... .45 Colt is fine defensive round. .410 that's another story.

The Ultramax RNFP tested yielded less than 300 ft. lbs muzzle energy out of the Judge .... If you can get the MV up above 850, you'd have something..... not sure how accurate it'd be with 1.5 to 2 inches of cylinder before the barrel...... and it is still way to big for a .45 LC.

Anybody tested a Judge with some .45 LC PD loads?

Mike Irwin
January 20, 2011, 08:57 PM
"It has to do with all the advertisements that Taurus put in American Rifleman."

And your massive depth of knowledge into internal NRA Publications operations is derived from what, exactly?

I still know most of the people who run American Rifleman and American Hunter magazines. I worked with quite a few of them during my tenure at NRA, and still count a couple among my circle of acquaintances.

I can categorically state that the accusation you've made is is based on nothing more than faulty supposition, poorly derived speculation, and a massive amount of mind-numbing ignorance masquerading as knowledge.

Keep your flights of fancy to yourself -- you don't have a single modicum of a clue of which you're trying to speak.

breed
January 20, 2011, 09:05 PM
this has gone past being funny. to just being embarrassing.:confused:

jimbob86
January 20, 2011, 11:09 PM
So what are you saying, Mike? The guys at NRA publications actually thought the Judge was the Bee's Knees?

I don't know, maybe they did ...... maybe they are better at selling ads than evaluating usefulness of a firearm.

Mike Irwin
January 20, 2011, 11:44 PM
"maybe they are better at selling ads than evaluating usefulness of a firearm."

And that right there is another speculative flight of fancy, with no basis in reality.

Publications staff does not sell advertisements in any of NRA's magazines.

Advertising sales are handled by an independent contractor (whose identity you can see for yourself if you read the magazine's masthead; it's changed from when I was on staff there.). They are not employed by NRA, and they don't maintain an office at NRA.

In the 3.5 years that I was number three editor on American Rifleman magazine, I never once had any contact with either a representative of NRA's contractor advertising sales company, nor did I have any contact with any of the ad shops used by any of the firearms or associated equipment manufacturers.

When I was there, publications staff often had NO idea whose ads were going to be included in a particular copy of the magazine, or where those ads were going to be placed in a particular issue. We could have easily asked the internal ad services coordinator, whose job it was to receive completed advertisements from NRA's advertising contractor and place them in the page casts of the appropriate upcoming issue, but it wasn't something that we cared about because advertising sales volume never once played a role in our decisions as to what firearms were featured in the magazine, when they were featured, or how they were featured.

Numerous times when I was on staff a firearm from a company that advertised in the magazine was rejected because it did not meet basic standards of serviceability or quality.

To be honest, I don't know what criteria were used to select the Judge as handgun of the year - NRA Publications started doing those awards after I left NRA publications.

But, instead of engaging in unwarranted and spurious speculation, why don't you contact NRA publications and inquire as to how and why the Judge was picked?

SVO
January 21, 2011, 12:07 AM
Getting back to the Judge. Seeing all these new different Judges that Taurus is coming out with, it occurred to me that there is someone somewhere in the world that is collecting Taurus guns. They are bound to be having a woody with all these new models.:)

LouCap
January 21, 2011, 12:08 AM
A person who chrono tested the Judge with 000 buck: link (http://mcb-homis.com/judge/)

The entire load of buckshot has about the same muzzle energy as a single standard pressure 124 grain 9mm round. Individually the projectiles are about the equivalent of round ball fired from an 1851 Navy, or about the same energy as a .22 rifle with a much less efficient projectile.

I have no doubt that the Judge can kill someone with 000 buck, and I imagine it stands a chance to stop an attacker. However compared to modern loadings in major handgun calibers, it seems mediocre at best. This especially true when you consider that shot placement with the Judge/buck shot combo is going to rely much more heavily on dumb luck than a conventional JHP bullet that can be aimed to a much finer degree.

Oddly though, despite the weapons mediocre performance (he never did try any self defense rounds like PDX), the tester had this to say about the Judge ultra-light...

"It did perform better than I thought it would. I personally would feel as comfortable carrying a Judge loaded with five round of the Sellier and Bellot buckshot as I would carrying a five shot 38 Special revolver. The 38 would be lighter and smaller but the Judge has alot of other tricks up it sleeve."

So, while it might not be a stellar review, it's not exactly damning either.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

jimbob86
January 21, 2011, 12:32 AM
I read the press release for the 2008 Golden Bullseye award.....


American Rifleman, NRA’s 122-year-old flagship publication, awarded the Taurus Judge “Handgun of the Year”, recognizing the pistol’s innovative, multi-purpose design and defensive capabilities.



Innovative? Hardly: see "Thunder 5"

Multi-purpose? It does do several things poorly.....

Defensive capabilities? We have 5 pages explaining it's shortcomings......

The way I see it, one of two possibilities exist:

1)The folks that gave the award are what Tamara called members of the "ballistic illiterati", and would not know ugly if it bit them, or

2)The folks that gave the award would not call the baby ugly ..... for whatever reason (I'm guessin' money, but that is "spurious speculation, isn't it?) .... and in fact, gave the blue ribbon to the homely little bugger.

I don't know these people ...... though it sounds like you do.... which do you think it is? Or is there another reason I have not thought of?

Archie
January 21, 2011, 12:49 AM
I just have no need for that sort of thing. It doesn't do anything I need done.

Mr. Irwin, I see the NRAphobes are at it again. My condolences.

Falcon642
January 21, 2011, 01:19 AM
Falcon, I figure in a self defense incident, I have enough on my mind, and no time to waste to be thinking about anything other than moving and putting the front sight CoM and pressing the trigger. Worrying about specific hit location is ..... foolish.

Unless the bad guys in your area are starting to routinely wear body armor, which they are in my area (I posted a thread about this in the general handgun forum). Several of the cops in my area have mentioned how local gangbangers are wearing body armor, and not in isolated incidents.

Now that the gangbangers are wearing armor, I HAVE to worry about hitting specific areas. If a bad guy has a vest on, you have to aim for the thighs, neck, or head. I am no Judge fanboy, but you have to admit that you have a better chance of hitting a difficult target like the neck, thigh, or head with a load of buckshot out of a Judge than you do with a standard pistol

For the record my concealed piece is a Springfield XD subcompact .40 loaded with Buffalo Bore 180 gr. However now I am considering other options.

Mike Irwin
January 21, 2011, 06:02 AM
Congratulations, Jim, you have an opinion. Get yourself a cookie, and you'll have dessert, too.

Perhaps you should get yourself a job on NRA staff so you can set those woefully misguided people straight.

At the same time you can clean up the huge den of corruption and payola that must exist there. That's obviously the ONLY way that anyone could have ever named the Judge anything other than laughingstock, right?

After all, every other revolver submitted during 2007 was oh so more innovative. After all, they were revolvers! Incredibly cutting edge in all ways, and every revolver from every manufacturer is oh so very much more innovative than the others.

Please, Jim, please, I beg of you!

Save us from our mediocrity and set right the woeful and completely unacceptable circumstance where someone has an opinion that doesn't agree with yours.


So, which of the obviously only two completely distasteful scenarios that you posit is the truth about how the Judge was awarded handgun of the year?

Well, if I were being completely and totally negative, looking only for what is obviously worst in the selection process, and attempting to smear people I don't know by obliquely claiming corruption and collusion, either one works for me!

Ultimately, I have a nasty feeling that no matter what I attempt to say in possible explanation of people whose thought processes I don't really know is going to be cynically explained away and couched in terms that infer corruption and collusion. It's the only possible explanation. :rolleyes:

Mike Irwin
January 21, 2011, 06:23 AM
OK, folks.

Put up or shut up time.

Got a couple claims here than NRA publications staff and, by inference, magazine content, is driven by the amount of advertising dollars a gun maker spends in ads in the magazines.

That is a pretty serious accusation.

That's the kind of thing that people can actually go to jail over (payola).

So, if you have proof of the claims you've made, that NRA publications staff is, in essence corrupt, you have 24 hours to start laying your cards on the table.

If you have nothing more than speculation and wild flights of fantasy to back up your charges, then your only course of action is to publicly withdraw your claims and apologize to NRA publications staff.

If you choose option number three, and do neither? Your days at TFL are ended.

It's as simple as that.

chadwimc
January 21, 2011, 06:38 AM
I came late to this fracas. I admit, I didn't wade through all that twaddle on the Judge. I am a member of the NRA. I enjoy the magazines. I can glance at the ads and then flip past 'em without any anguish. But...

Are you saying ad revenue doesn't impact content in journalism?
If you had a negative review of the latest space age polymer shootin' iron, and your biggest advertiser caught wind of it, would it change? From negative to neutral? Back burnered til next month?
What if your boss leaned on ya?

Call me "skeptical"...

mtnbkr
January 21, 2011, 06:43 AM
You could kill someone with a Swingline stapler, too.
http://4sqatl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Milton-Waddums-Office-Space-Swingline-Red-Stapler.jpg

Chris

shortwave
January 21, 2011, 06:56 AM
If you choose option number three, and do neither? Your days at TFL are ended.

...and your no longer invited to this weekends snowball shoot.:p

Sorry Mike, couldn't resist;).

LouCap
January 21, 2011, 08:27 AM
Congratulations, Jim, you have an opinion. Get yourself a cookie, and you'll have dessert, too.

Perhaps you should get yourself a job on NRA staff so you can set those woefully misguided people straight.

At the same time you can clean up the huge den of corruption and payola that must exist there. That's obviously the ONLY way that anyone could have ever named the Judge anything other than laughingstock, right?

After all, every other revolver submitted during 2007 was oh so more innovative. After all, they were revolvers! Incredibly cutting edge in all ways, and every revolver from every manufacturer is oh so very much more innovative than the others.

Please, Jim, please, I beg of you!

Save us from our mediocrity and set right the woeful and completely unacceptable circumstance where someone has an opinion that doesn't agree with yours.


So, which of the obviously only two completely distasteful scenarios that you posit is the truth about how the Judge was awarded handgun of the year?

Well, if I were being completely and totally negative, looking only for what is obviously worst in the selection process, and attempting to smear people I don't know by obliquely claiming corruption and collusion, either one works for me!

Ultimately, I have a nasty feeling that no matter what I attempt to say in possible explanation of people whose thought processes I don't really know is going to be cynically explained away and couched in terms that infer corruption and collusion. It's the only possible explanation. :rolleyes:

You have my vote for best post of this entire ridiculous thread. Nicely done sir!

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

skoro
January 21, 2011, 09:04 AM
I would call that test BS big time.

Go ahead. You're entitled to your opinion. I think it shows a significant shortcoming in the Judge's performance in what's supposed to be an area of its strength.

Now, if you already own one and are pleased with it, then by all means, carry on. My opinion shouldn't lessen your pleasure.

This thread is about why some of us don't like or distrust the Judge. It's marketed as a potent self defense weapon and there's no doubt that it's selling well.

I think my current revolvers are much better at that job. Plus, they're more compact and not nearly as ugly. ;)

jimbob86
January 21, 2011, 09:53 AM
So, if you have proof of the claims you've made,


I have no proof of collusion between American Rifleman and Taurus..... the whole deal just didn't pass the smell test for me. I said so, and asked the if the baby was indeed ugly. In public. Rude? Maybe, but it was an honest question. ...... addressed to the wrong people in the wrong place. For that, I apologize.

The NRA does a lot of good, and I am guilty of throwing bricks at personnel on our side of the barricade.

For that, I apologize, and will accept your banhammer, should you see fit to use it.

jimbob86

motorhead0922
January 21, 2011, 10:17 AM
+1 chadwimc

I too like American Rifleman. I believe they are objective. But when they run a 4 page Taurus ad right in the middle of their review of the very guns they are writing about, they certainly open themselves up to skepticism.

So, people are going to be booted off of TFL for “flights of fancy”? Really? That will eliminate half of us.

Everybody here is going off on the “poor” SD performance of the Judge. I don’t own a Judge or have plans to get one. I do have plans to get a S&W model 17, which nobody I know of hates, even though the Judge has gotta be a superior SD weapon. They are both large and won’t carry comfortably (so I don’t plan to). Why a 17? Just cuz. Probably the same reason some folks buy a Judge.

Judge owners are gun owners. That’s a good thing. Quit piling on.

Mike Irwin
January 21, 2011, 10:50 AM
Never once, in the 3.5 years that I was on staff at American Rifleman, did I ever feel any sort of pressure from my bosses at the magazine, anyone from the executive staff, or anyone from the board of directors, to slant any of my articles in any particular fashion to favor an advertiser.

I have absolutely NO doubt that some of the companies have tried to bring pressure to bear on American Rifleman at various times in the past. That's a tactic that is often used in the industry.

But here's a simple fact of truth about funding for NRA Publications.

Advertising revenue for the magazines forms a rather small part of their overall budgets.

Unlike other magazines that live and die with advertising revenue, the majority of the funding for NRA publications comes from member dues as a line item in the annual budget.

At the time I worked at NRA, our full-page ad rates were anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3rds the prices charged by Guns & Ammo, Outdoor Life, and other commercial-venture magazines in the firearms and hunting fields.

In other words, American Rifleman, Hunter, and the others are insulated from potential negative impact from such threats in a way that few other magazines are. Being freed from that sort of economic extortion gives an organization the ability to be a LOT more credible in how it approaches its assignments.

Here's another fact...

If a large manufacturer wants to pull their advertising, it could end up costing them in a number of ways.

Ad space is sold in contract time blocks. What's that mean? It means that Manufacturer A (through their advertising firm) says "We want to buy exclusive rights to full page ads on the inside front cover, page 23, and a top half page on page 56 for the next 18 months."

They get a significant break on what would be charged for purchasing a la carte ad space every month and they get the same place in the book every month. But they also get something else - a "break the contract and pay" fee.

If, for some reason, they end up breaking that contract, it is generally VERY expensive for them to do so. Not as expensive as paying out the entire contract, but a hefty surcharge AND loss of those exclusive position rights.

That contract break fee goes both ways. After S&W signed its agreement with the Clinton administration back in 2000, NRA booted S&W's advertising for IIRC over a year. NRA paid a good chunk of change to break its existing ad contracts with S&W.

There's another factor at work here, too.

Unlike other magazines, which are profit centers for their owners, NRA magazines exist primarily to serve the needs of members, not advertisers or manufacturers. The corporate entities have their own trade organizations to represent them.

You may laugh, but when I was on staff at American Rifleman we actually felt that quite distinctly - that our primary responsibility wasn't to Smith & Wesson, Colt, etc., but to the 3.2 million (at that time) NRA members.

I've not discussed that particular aspect with any of my former coworkers, but I sincerely doubt that any of them have lost sight of that fact.


I've recounted this here before, and I'll do so again. The one major problem I had while I was on staff was how we approached the Colt AA 2000 handgun, which ultimately turned into a fiasco.

The guns that Colt sent to us showed horrific QC problems. The first one we had actually shot "groups" at 25 yards far larger than most shotguns firing 00 buck at a similar distance.

I was adamantly opposed to putting the gun in the magazine until Colt solved its issues, and was overruled.

We did so not because Colt was threatening to pull its advertising from our publications, but because, at the time, Colt was in absolutely desperate financial shape.

In essence, we were trying to toss them a lifeline for their AA 2000 to try and help them stave off bankruptcy and a possible end to Colt firearms production for civilian consumption.

Ultimately, the AA 2000 turned out to be an anvil, not a life preserver, for Colt. The gun simply wasn't ready for production, it wasn't well received, and its durability once it did hit the market was pretty poor.

That whole affair left a very sour taste in my mouth, but at no time were we catching heat to push the AA 2000 from outside the editorial staff.

Leejack
January 21, 2011, 11:19 AM
Just a general comment about magazines and advertizing. This is not in response to any particular post:

When a magazine has a positive review on a Taurus, it's because of the BIG check that Taurus is writing for advertizing.

When Kimber, Colt, Springer or anyone else gets a positive review, it's because they're good.

My point is (and I don't own or want a judge), that there is a blatent double standard here, that goes on and on.

When certain brands of guns develop a problem, members will encourage other members to go to the ends of the earth in search of the fix. Other brands with the same problem are junk; wouldn't buy one. Take your loss and move on.

Just be aware of it; it's easy to get sucked into when you read it over and over and over again, day after day.

I'd like to see a Super Blackhawk that shoots 454 casull and BBs! :D LOL! j/k

LouCap
January 21, 2011, 07:16 PM
Just a general comment about magazines and advertizing. This is not in response to any particular post:

When a magazine has a positive review on a Taurus, it's because of the BIG check that Taurus is writing for advertizing.

When Kimber, Colt, Springer or anyone else gets a positive review, it's because they're good.



Great observation. It seems that some guys can never win without being accused of cheating when it comes to those reviews.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

MLeake
January 21, 2011, 10:13 PM
I'm sure there are a lot of happy Taurus owners. We seem to have several in any given Taurus or Judge thread. That's great.

I don't own a Taurus. I've had friends who did, and were happy with them.

However, the ones I've checked out at gun stores had poor triggers, in comparison to their S&W lookalikes. That was one factor that deterred me from buying.

Another factor has been talking to guys who work on guns; impressions I get are the Taurus revolver internals are harder to work on, and less durable, than S&W or Ruger internals.

The other major factor was that I know a couple gun shop owners, and a couple gun shop managers, who deal in high volumes of Taurus (and other brands).

Their advice has been uniform: avoid Taurus, it has the highest rate of problems and returns for warranty work of any major brand they sell.

Guys who deal in large volumes of brands get a better idea of the overall QC of those brands, than do guys who have one, two, or even several.

So I'm happy for the contented Taurus owners; but I have no desire to put my money on a Taurus bet.

With regards to the Judge, I think it's fine as a niche weapon; I just don't think it should be marketed for SD (or even hunting, based on the group sizes reported with .45LC). For snake defense, sure. For plinking or busting clay pigeons, sure.

But as has been mentioned by many others, it's HUGE in comparison with the actual power available. I can much more comfortably carry either of my S&W .44 Magnums, have higher power levels and one more shot, in more concealable packages.

Or I can carry my 10mm auto, and have more power, 3 more shots, and fast reloads. It's a 6" longslide, and still smaller, more compact, and better balanced than a Judge.

In summary, I think Taurus as a brand has poor QC, based on inputs from friends who sell a lot of them. I think the Judge has been improperly, even unethically marketed as something that it is not. But I think it's great that there are happy Taurus owners out there, and I think the Judge would make an interesting toy, and a pretty good anti-snake gun.

Eagle0711
January 22, 2011, 04:32 AM
The March/April American Handgunner Mag. has a write up on the Taurus Public Defender which is an off shoot of the Judge. On pg. #53 is a photo of the rear of the cylinder. The machine work on the ratchet looks like it was done with an ax.

It also shows two targets shot at 3 yards with holes even missing the VisiShot target.

There is a link, but Iv'e not looked at it, but here it is.
www.americanhandgunner.com/taurus

4runnerman
January 22, 2011, 10:32 AM
Their advice has been uniform: avoid Taurus, it has the highest rate of problems and returns for warranty work of any major brand they sell

The 2 gunsmiths i know say just the oppesite of that. They say the old ones are about gone due to being total junk,but the new ones are holding up very well. They see less Taurus than any other gun out there. Now i used to think it was because volume of sales being higher on other brands Making it a ratio thing. In checking with local stores around here,I find Taurus is out selling other brands almost 2 to 1.. In my case i judge this on 2 years of having a PT-1911 and 4000 to 5000 rounds and no glitch yet. I have defended the Judge in this Forum from day one and have decided to not worry about what gets said in this Forum anymore as my proof in in my Taurus and its track record so far. I have seen Judge in action and would have no issue as a SD gun with it. I am very aware that there are MUCH,MUCH better guns out there to do the job(that is a given). There is always a better gun to do a job no matter who you talk too. In my time as a RSO i see more issues with Ruger and SigSauer,with Ruger being the highest of all. And on the flip side IF i got the one i a million Taurus that works geat ,,Than more power to me:D

The fact is the Judge is here,it's here to stay and selling like mad. And besides all the trashing of it in this Forum, People are and do put there life in its hands every day and the numbers are increasing,so much that SW is jumping on band wagon too.

I have read all the posts from Jimbob and the staff members to and very much respect what they say and do not argue it or the proof they set forth either. I know nothing of the advertising junk as i do not buy any of those books or magazines any how. I found out about the Judge by a guy at our local range shooting it.

Just my 2 cents

Leejack
January 22, 2011, 11:23 AM
Seeing that my brilliant suggestion of creating a sub forum and consolidationg all the hatred wasn't implemented, here's a few more videos for your enjoyment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgxuAUajH8w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmgeUMMA-Y8

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffsond#p/a/u/2/nQdA5Rn9sbg

BGutzman
January 22, 2011, 11:39 AM
I neither "love" nor "hate" Taurus products and I have owned two of there pistols (Pt 145 & Pt 845). What I would say is that as a general rule you get what you pay for. I have fired a Judge and found it to be no better or worse than anything else in this price range.

What I can say is I doubt you will see most people carrying a Judge for ccw, it a show piece for most and nothing more.

4runnerman
January 22, 2011, 12:03 PM
Nice videos Leejack. I think that puts to rest in my mind about it being a SD gun. At 15 feet maybe not to good,but as Video shows it is deadly. I would go with the videos over any Gellatin test. But im sure there are still those out there that are stronger than a 2 x 4 too. patterns were tighter than what you here in here. Im outta here as my mind has been put to rest. To the bashers--Keep it up and keep fooling yourselfs all you want. I will have to check back from time to time to see how bashers try to discredit the videos though.Should be worth a laugh or two.:D

Leejack
January 22, 2011, 12:10 PM
As I've said before, I personally don't want one, but I think it would be an excellent snake charmer.

Even if it's as a novelty gun, so what? Many people buy novelty guns just because they can, or want to add to their collection.

Again, if CZ or Glock had come out with something like this, the bashing would be cut by about 75%.

The ol double standard!

As far as the gun writers go, I've never bought, sold, traded, wanted or not wanted a gun, based on what they say!

I do enjoy reading them like most people, but couldn't really give a rats behind what they think!

Note the XDm on the cover of AR. Has anyone said that the fat check that Springer wrote is why it gets a good review? NNNNNope!

johnbt
January 22, 2011, 01:14 PM
"if CZ or Glock had come out with something like this"

They didn't and quite often respect is earned for the things you don't do.


"the fat check that Springer wrote"

How much was it for? Do you know or are you blowing smoke? Facts please if you have some.

Leejack
January 22, 2011, 01:25 PM
Apparently, you didn't get the point.

When Taurus gets a good review, people jump in and say that it was the check they wrote.

When others get a good review, they don't say that.

I don't know anything about those checks. And I do love springers too.

It's a double standard, plain and simple.

overkill0084
January 22, 2011, 01:49 PM
The market will sort it out. Cabbage Patch Kids were a big hit too.

LockedBreech
January 22, 2011, 02:52 PM
The market will sort it out. Cabbage Patch Kids were a big hit too.

:D

foochacho
January 23, 2011, 06:23 PM
Posted by ATW525
A person who chrono tested the Judge with 000 buck: link

The entire load of buckshot has about the same muzzle energy as a single standard pressure 124 grain 9mm round. Individually the projectiles are about the equivalent of round ball fired from an 1851 Navy, or about the same energy as a .22 rifle with a much less efficient projectile.

I have no doubt that the Judge can kill someone with 000 buck, and I imagine it stands a chance to stop an attacker. However compared to modern loadings in major handgun calibers, it seems mediocre at best. This especially true when you consider that shot placement with the Judge/buck shot combo is going to rely much more heavily on dumb luck than a conventional JHP bullet that can be aimed to a much finer degree.

This test is not accurate. The loads tested are not the handgun loads which perform much better. The Judge should not be judged by using insufficient ammo. Also from my understanding chronographing shotgun ammo is tricky because of the wad and muzzle blast scewing the results. If anyone is using the judge in a defensive situation they should use the federal premium or pdx1 made specifically for 410 handguns.

The federal premium buckshot I tested completely penetrated 4 milk jugs of water (24"s water=12" ballistic gel) meeting the FBI standards for a defensive round. This shoots 4 copper balls that measure about .36 in diameter. That is slightly larger that a .38 which is .357 in diameter. Plus these balls will flatten out some expanding slightly. These balls may way less than a .38 but why does that matter when they make the same size hole and penetrate 12 inches.

Getting shot with a judge using the federal ammo is like being shot with 4 .38's at once. So I could unload something comparable to 20 .38's in less than 3 seconds. The weight in grains isn't the same but the wound channel certainly is. If I had a 3 inch cylinder judge I could unload 25 balls since the 3 inch ammo holds one extra. Seems like a pretty good defensive handgun to me. How many 9mm's can you unload on your target in 3 seconds or less? Certainly not 20-25.

The videos Lee jack posted above should help support my claims. The first video shows a derringer coming just shy of 4 jugs. the derringer has no barrel and alot less pressure. My 3 inch barreled judge will penetrate 4 and I would imagine the 4 and 6 inch barreled judges would do better than mine.

BGutzman
January 23, 2011, 09:02 PM
IMHO the Judge for the most part is pointless other than a table top talk piece. How many people are honestly going to try to ccw one of these giants? A few people might ccw with it but for most it will end up collecting dust or at best a home defense weapon.

I think some people are offended because they bought a 454 or whatever and paid a premium and now a gun comes out that can do it for half the price or less. Not so elite anymore.

It is what it is and who cares, its not your money unless you bought one.. If you dont like the judge then dont buy one, I certainly wont buy one..

jhgreasemonkey
January 24, 2011, 12:14 AM
We have a guy in hunting camp that uses a judge to shoot rats in the primitive cabin on the property. It works fine for his use. And I can see using it as a snake gun. I wouldn't personaly choose it for self defense though. You can get a ruger gp100 .357 for about the same price.

natman
January 24, 2011, 04:07 AM
It is underpowered
Not as a .45 Colt.... .45 Colt is fine defensive round. .410 that's another story.

Well, I agree that a Judge would be most effective for defense loaded with 45 Colt ammo. The problem is, if you are going to shoot 45 Colt ammo, why not shoot it in a real 45 Colt revolver? You'd get 6 shots, not 5 and the length that's wasted in that silly cylinder could be used in a longer barrel where it could do some good.

NWCP
January 24, 2011, 04:16 AM
Wait until their new 28GA "revolver" hits the market. Think there's ridicule now.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 24, 2011, 10:24 AM
BATFE seems to have impeached and convicted the 28 gauge Judge.

There goes the Judge, there goes the Judge!

Ruark
January 24, 2011, 12:27 PM
If you live in the country like we do in Central Texas, it's VERY hard to beat a .410 Judge with #4 shot (about 35 pellets, 18" pattern at 15') for a snake gun. There are a lot of places out here where it's not a question of "if" you see a rattler, but how many you will see. They should market this thing as a snake gun, they'd sell a bunch.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 24, 2011, 12:33 PM
Not as much as a SD super weapon. The TV commercials are the lonely good looking woman in a parking garage. Not some stinky cowboy on his lease.

I've put some shot shells in my 38 for snakes in TX when out in the country.

Don't need to carry some big old judge.

nefprotector
January 24, 2011, 12:40 PM
"WHY all the Judge Hate?" I feel because it's a Taurus. Now that S&W is making them they will be Praised to the most High.

SaberOne
January 24, 2011, 01:09 PM
The Judge is a strange bird that a lot of folks like! So much so, that Smith' decided to pull a Microsoft and copy them. Tell me you don't find just a little bit of humor in a .410 handgun with a Scandium Alloy frame and a night-sight! Personally, it’s a toss up as to which one nauseates me the most. :barf:

It’s just a matter of time before they offer the pro-series with Bluetooth and reinstone grips.

natman
January 24, 2011, 01:14 PM
"WHY all the Judge Hate?" I feel because it's a Taurus. Now that S&W is making them they will be Praised to the most High.

Not by me. There's plenty to criticize in the design, there's no need to get entangled in the subject of Taurus' poor quality. :rolleyes:

shortwave
January 24, 2011, 05:12 PM
Glad this thread is still open.

About 30 minutes ago the dog and I went out to the barn. We went through the main door and walked to an enclosed doorway leading to the upstairs. I partially opened that door and I could tell something wasn't right as the shephard just about knocked me down. Most unusual for him. I grabbed him, closed the door and returned to the house.

Since we had our snowball shoot this weekend(which was 'a blast') my Judge was laid on the desk in the spare room awaiting my cleaning. I socked 5 duplex rounds(4's and 6's I think, that were loaded by a friend) into the Judge,grabbed a flashlight and went to the barn.

As I again opened the door to the upstairs, I shined the light behind the steps in the enclosed area. What I saw was a big mound of fur.:eek: Nothing was moving so it was hard to tell what it was at first. Finally figured out it was a mound of coons. Guess they were sleeping trying to stay warm as its been frigid here.

The shooting frenzy started(and ended) with 4 shots being fired(saved the 5'th in case I had to shoot myself in battle;)) and me slamming the door shut.:p I heard some thrashing about and when all noise settled down I opened the door.

There was a total of 5 coons. Must have got enough penetration at that distance to get at least two with one shot.

Our shephard is a varmint killing machine but don't know how he would have faired against 5. Glad I put him away.

NightSleeper
January 25, 2011, 10:00 AM
Good shootin' Shortwave!

Back to the OP: I don't believe in the Taurus bashers, period. I own some Taurus guns, and their quality is not called into question by me. Do they produce duds sometimes? Of course ... all gun manufacturers do.

But why the love of the Judge? I honestly don't know. I wouldn't want a .410 pistol sized shotgun as a "super SD weapon". I don't know how that marketing stragedy even got started. The only thing I've ever heard that made sense is that it is a great trail gun and snake killer. That makes sense, I guess. But a super SD weapon everyone wants in their vehicle to protect themselves? I'll pass ...

RGPM1A
January 25, 2011, 11:47 AM
Never had a Judge but i had a Mil Inc. Thunder Five which I think was the precursor to the Judge that someone gave me NIB about 15 years ago. I completely forgot I had it and it sat in my safe until last year when I tried it for the first time with 45 long colt and 410 00 buckshot and bird shot (6 shot) loads. The 45 LC rounds all key holed at 7 yards in a 1' group even though the barrel was rifled. The 410 birdshot loads made a nice ring about 6-8" in diameter with a wad hole in the center. The buck shot loads made a random pattern about 2' in diameter with a wad hole randomly placed. I next tried to shoot some hand thrown clay birds with the birdshot shells. They bounced off - even when they were on the ground about 5 feet away. I tried the buck shot on some water filled milk jugs at 7 yards. Couldn't hit one. The thing had the longest and hardest trigger pull I ever felt and the single action wasn't much better. I sold it to someone at the range who had to have it because it look cool for $450.

The only possible use for this gun would be to to scare people away because it was really big, or if it was a critter, from the noise.

LouCap
January 26, 2011, 07:46 AM
Never had a Judge but i had a Mil Inc. Thunder Five...

The only possible use for this gun would be to to scare people away because it was really big, or if it was a critter, from the noise.

So you've never had a judge? Do you think it might be different than the Thunder Five? I mean, a Diamondback and Ruger LCP are both .380's, but the differences in their performance are widely known...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

friedk
January 26, 2011, 08:15 AM
Misleading marketing.

markj
January 26, 2011, 04:35 PM
The market will sort it out. Cabbage Patch Kids were a big hit too.

I recall a lot of folks bought rocks for pets, guy made millions off of plain rocks. Folks will buy anything that is "in" at the moment.

So what, theys been worse guns made and sold in the name of SD. Let them folks buy em and have the fun they have.

Now take a deep breath and repeat this, no body is making me buy a judge.....

RGPM1A
January 28, 2011, 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGPM1A
Never had a Judge but i had a Mil Inc. Thunder Five...

The only possible use for this gun would be to to scare people away because it was really big, or if it was a critter, from the noise.
So you've never had a judge? Do you think it might be different than the Thunder Five? I mean, a Diamondback and Ruger LCP are both .380's, but the differences in their performance are widely known...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

From reading the posts by those that do own or have shot a Judge it doesn't seem like there is much difference. Sorry if you own one and I offended you.

dangerclose
January 28, 2011, 10:46 AM
http://www.winchester.com/Products/shotshell-ammunition/supreme-elite/pdx1410/Pages/S410PDX1.aspx

Watch the video, if anyone can watch this video and tell me the Judge or Governor is worthless at self/home defense is ignorant... A small frame shotgun with 6 rounds each carrying three .45 caliber holes with 12 large BB's/Shot following it....get shot with that and say it's worthless

natman
January 28, 2011, 12:59 PM
Watch the video, if anyone can watch this video and tell me the Judge or Governor is worthless at self/home defense is ignorant... A small frame shotgun with 6 rounds each carrying three .45 caliber holes with 12 large BB's/Shot following it....get shot with that and say it's worthless

From post #85:
The flat discs that the Judge turns buckshot into do not penetrate well. If you don't understand sectional density and why it's important, you will not be able to intelligently discuss the use of firearms for SD, a point that is proven several times in this thread.

All the Winchester ammo does is pre-flatten the buckshot for you. And nobody has said the Judge is worthless as a self defense tool. It's still a gun, it's still dangerous, it's just a bad choice for SD. Just because I don't want to be shot with one doesn't make it a good choice.

dangerclose
January 28, 2011, 01:46 PM
Doesn't penetrate well? From what stand point? Please show me the proof of this "pre-flatten buck shot" so I can learn something new.

Watch the video of it hitting the ballistic gel. At 15 feet the three slugs travel 8-10" into the gel and the buckshot/BBs travel 4-6 sixes. Three .45 caliber size slugs at 750-1000fps will penetrate human flesh with extreme ease. They are not completely flat as you would think when you hear "discs", they still have shape to travel through the air and penetrate.

Why people do not understand this amazes me...

Im not arguing it is the best solution to a home defense firearm as I have many others for that purpose. But people kill me win they get all technical and over analyze penetration. Our bodies are extremely delicate to force of any kind. The only time you will get an argument from me is if a intruder busts into your home wearing an Ironman suit...

Sorry if I coming across abrasive, I just had sinus surgery yesterday and full of meds right now :eek:

temmi
January 28, 2011, 05:00 PM
Did we ever get any real penetration results?

cause with that tight pattern it looks like you would be better off with the 45 ACP or Colt


Just sayen

Cheapshooter
January 28, 2011, 06:22 PM
I don't hate mine, see my range report under "Oh no, I did it, I bought a Judge"

BGutzman
January 28, 2011, 09:31 PM
Watch the video of it hitting the ballistic gel. At 15 feet the three slugs travel 8-10" into the gel and the buckshot/BBs travel 4-6 sixes. Three .45 caliber size slugs at 750-1000fps will penetrate human flesh with extreme ease. They are not completely flat as you would think when you hear "discs", they still have shape to travel through the air and penetrate.

Easy DangerClose people are criticizing a product (Gun) and not you so dont take it so personal. Obviously you own one and think its the cats meow, thats your right.

Many people would argue that you need 14 or 15 inches of penetration to help ensure that something vital can be reached. The FBI has a specific number of inches of penetration they recommend but the number escapes me at this moment but I think its 13 inches.

Further any gun firing a spread of anything risk hitting someone you dont intend, the judge apparently spreads out pretty quickly and many would argue than beyond 15 feet it is more of a liability when using 410 then an asset.

I would argue no matter the model the dang thing is very wide and not very usable for ccw unless you happen to be a larger framed person.

I understand you really like it, great use it and enjoy it but please understand many of us think its a poor choice compared to the other offerings out there.

nate45
January 28, 2011, 10:21 PM
Just because I don't want to be shot with one doesn't make it a good choice.

Exactly, I don't want to be shot by a pellet gun either, but...

The Judge is obviously more effective for SD than a pellet gun. However, there are far better choices.

natman
January 29, 2011, 03:32 AM
Doesn't penetrate well? From what stand point? Please show me the proof of this "pre-flatten buck shot" so I can learn something new.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionImages/products/shotshell/PD_PDX1-410-IL.jpg
http://www.winchester.com/Products/shotshell-ammunition/supreme-elite/pdx1410/Pages/S410PDX1.aspx

They are not completely flat as you would think when you hear "discs", they still have shape to travel through the air and penetrate.

See photo above. The ARE "completely flat as you would think when you hear 'discs'".

disk
   –noun
1.
any thin, flat, circular plate or object.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disk

These projectiles are extremely thin by bullet standards, flat and circular, i.e. they are disks.

Watch the video of it hitting the ballistic gel. At 15 feet the three slugs travel 8-10" into the gel and the buckshot/BBs travel 4-6 sixes. Three .45 caliber size slugs at 750-1000fps will penetrate human flesh with extreme ease.

I realize it is not intuitive, but 8" of penetration in ballistics gel is not considered good penetration. The FBI considers 12" the minimum acceptable penetration, with 18" being better. That's as clearly as I can explain it without getting more technical than you would accept.

Why people do not understand this amazes me...

Perhaps that is because you are: a) wrong b) easily amazed.

Im not arguing it is the best solution to a home defense firearm as I have many others for that purpose. But people kill me win they get all technical and over analyze penetration. Our bodies are extremely delicate to force of any kind.

I'm not arguing that it's the best solution for HD either. It's not even a good solution. There are much better solutions out there and people should buy one based on reality, not marketing hype and ignorance. I'm not going bet my life on an inferior product based on the premise that "Our bodies are extremely delicate to force of any kind."

The only time you will get an argument from me is if a intruder busts into your home wearing an Ironman suit...

Ah, if that were only true....


Short, flat bullets do not penetrate well, no matter how much you want to believe something else. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's not true.

Try this (http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=sectional+density)

hydroholic
January 29, 2011, 08:35 AM
Some people say you need 14 to 15 inches of penetration to be effective? In what, an elephant? That some funny CRAP that I'm sure someone will try to defend or explain in a very wordy way to make them seem smart and believable when all they will actually be doing is blowing smoke up somebody's rear. That has got to be one of the most illiterate comments on this thread so far! Where I come from unless you been hittin the corn bread and Fried chicken and twinkies to much, 14 to 15 inches is way more than enough penetration. Hell on the average human that would be all the way through. Now the judge aint gonna do that with .410 000 buck but it will go deep enough to kill. Sounds like to me the only thing somebody may be hittin to hard is the crack pipe if you honestly believe it takes 14 to 15 inches to be effective or even fatal. The Judge may not be the best SD weapon there is but some of these expert testimonies or opinions of why the Judge is not effective as a SD weapon have just gotten so ridiculous it,s past the point of being funny, it's gotten plain stupid. I'll borrow my stepfathers Judge, load it with 000 buckshot ,lay it on the night stand and dare some poor sap to enter my home. I'll guarantee you he wont leave the room I catch him in alive. Try me!

natman
January 29, 2011, 09:49 AM
Some people say you need 14 to 15 inches of penetration to be effective? In what, an elephant?

It takes 14-18 inches penetration in ballistics gel, not a body.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_6961099_fbi-ballistic-test-protocol.html

Winchester seems to think the FBI protocol is important:

http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/winchester-pdx1

Hot off the R&D loading benches of Winchester is the new Bonded PDX1 ammo, designed to satisfy the FBI ballistic protocols.

Except, of course for the 410 ammo, because it can't.

"Performance was everything you'd expect of a load the FBI is receiving as I write this: Full expansion, with the average of the first five round being .615-inch, and full FBI penetration, averaging 15 inches of gelatin."

But hey, what does the FBI know about handgun ammo anyway, compared to our resident "experts".

That some funny CRAP that I'm sure someone will try to defend or explain in a very wordy way to make them seem smart and believable when all they will actually be doing is blowing smoke up somebody's rear.

In other words you don't want to be bothered by the facts.

That has got to be one of the most illiterate comments on this thread so far!

Not by a long shot.

natman
January 29, 2011, 10:10 AM
At the risk of offending the resident ignorati, here's an explanation of why Winchester PDX1 410 ammo isn't the magic bullet some seem to think it is.

The heaviest 2.5" 410 load currently available is 1/2 oz of shot. Let's assume that the PDX1 weighs the same.

2.5" 410 load (oz) 0.5
Number of BB shot/oz 50
number of BB shot/shell 12
weight of BB shot (oz) 0.24
So there's roughly a 1/4 oz of BB shot. That leaves another 1/4 to divide between the three Defense Discs™.

calcluated weight of disks (oz) 0.26
Number of disks 3
Weight of 1 disk (oz) 0.09
Grains per oz 437.5
Weight of 1 disk (grains) 38

So each disk weighs 38 grains. That's slightly less than a standard 22 bullet. The problem is that they are 45 caliber in diameter, which makes them very light for caliber, which has a major impact on penetration.

Caliber 0.452
Sectional Density 0.027

How light for caliber are they? Let's compare them to some popular 45 caliber bullets:

Grns SD Ratio of SD
038 0.027 1.00
180 0.126 0.21
230 0.161 0.16
265 0.185 0.14

Would you bet your life on a 38 grain 45 caliber bullet? Or even three of them? Not me.

I hope this makes sense to those who care to understand it. Sorry if it's too much like book larnin' for the rest.

hydroholic
January 29, 2011, 10:24 AM
Some people will argue with a brick debating the fact that it is a brick. That what this thread has turned into from the Taurus bashers just like about 90% of any other Taurus threads that are started. The simple fact is a Judge is an effective SD weapon. Maybe not the best for your desired situation but is effective. I guess it gonna take one of the so called uninformed or should I say according to some of the Taurus bashers , missinformed, to bust somebodys ass with one of these so called non effective for SD Judges to open some of your eyes. But I guess you will probably have some excuse like the gunshot didn't kill him the fall to the floor from being knocked off his balance by the shot did . You speak of facts stated by one side and that discounts the judge and video by another side that seems to show the opposite. So which one is actually the fact? Have you shot a Judge? Probably not. Well I have and have not doubt that in just about any room in any home it will kill an intruder with the 000 buckshot. If not then you obviously are not worth a crap as a shooter.

foochacho
January 29, 2011, 11:33 AM
Natman please read post 137 on the last page. Instead of wasting your time assuming what something weighs or will do take it from someone who really shoots it. The judge can meet the FBI standards you keep quoting. Sure the weight in grains is lower but the penetration is there and that is all that matter. Being hit by a 250 gr. 45 or a 180.gr 45 doesn't make much difference if they both meet the required penetration. They both have the same wound channel. The judge is the same way with buckshot. The balls way less but have the same diameter (a little more) than a 9/357/380/.38 as long as it meets penetration requirements why does it matter what the weight is when the hole is the same? The judge can fully penetrate a treated 4x4 it has no problem penetrating hard objects as well bones would be no match compared to a treated 4x4. 4 is better than 1 if a 9mm is ok for defense than by comparison the judge is just as good or better since you get 4 for every 1. What other handgun can unload 20 rounds in 2-3 seconds besides a sub machine gun?

natman
January 29, 2011, 12:11 PM
Natman please read post 137 on the last page. Instead of wasting your time assuming what something weighs or will do take it from someone who really shoots it. The judge can meet the FBI standards you keep quoting.

Not with PDX1 ammo, which is what I was writing about.

Now if you want to make a case that the buckshot loads are better than PDX1, fine. Show me some tests with actual FBI spec ballistics gel and I'll view them with an open mind.

The one test that I have seen wasn't very impressive:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

foochacho
January 29, 2011, 12:30 PM
As far as I know there is no test on the ballistic gel with the federal ammo. My personnel testing, along with about 4 or so other people I have ran across on various forums, show that it penetrates 4 milkjugs of water. Which is 24"s of water penetration. The ballistic gel is 2:1 ratio when compared to water 24" of water penetration is equal to 12" ballistic gel. I have also heard from people who did wet pack testing that the federal load penetrated more than the winchester load. The winchester load gets 10.5" in ballistic gel so it would make sense for the deeper penetrating federal load to make it to 12" inches. Not an official test but many people seem to get the same results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgxuAUajH8w

This video shows the federal load out of a derringer all 4 make it into the fourth bottle not fully penetrating. The derringer has no barrel so the velocity suffers greatly compared to the judge. But I think it is easy to see that with a judge it should have no problem penetrating that last jug.

foochacho
January 29, 2011, 12:37 PM
That box of truth test is with ammo not made specifically for a hand gun. Those are lead balls (not copper jacketed) shot out of a load with slow burning powders made for a long shotgun barrel. You use the best ammo for the gun you have and that ammo isn't even close. If you buy a judge use the federal ammo, simple as that. Just like any other gun. If I bought a 1911 and used cheap ammo and it jammed every other round it wouldn't be fair to judge the gun without trying other ammo. Junk ammo does not equal a junk gun. The guy at the box of truth is stubborn and refuses to redo his own testing with the federal ammo. Why people still quote that test makes no sense to me. Seems like most people knocking the judge are ignorant to the loadings available.

natman
January 29, 2011, 01:09 PM
As far as I know there is no test on the ballistic gel with the federal ammo.

Well, when there is I may reconsider. I agree that the Box O' Truth ammo was less than ideal so there may be some room for improvement.

The ballistic gel is 2:1 ratio when compared to water 24" of water penetration is equal to 12" ballistic gel.

Where does this come from?

foochacho
January 29, 2011, 01:41 PM
Nat that 2:1 ratio comes from the box of truth that you linked too. The box of truth is testing water bottles just like my tests, so I see no need to wait for the official results. The box of truth is just as unofficial as my tests yet you and many others seem to have no problem linking to it :rolleyes:. I am sick of that box of truth test, no wonder so many people have the misinformed about the usefulness of this gun.

In his water bottle testing with concealable guns the 380 HP penetrated 4 bottles barely expanding. The buckshot is already slightly bigger than a 380 and flattens out slightly expanding the diameter even more. Every round out of the judge is like being hit with 4 of those .380's. The 9mm's expanded more but only penetrated 3 jugs not even meeting the standard penetration, equal to around 9 inches. Obviously 9mm ball goes further but most people are using hollowpoints for defense loads.

The whole point of the penetration standard is so that the vital organs can be hit form all angles. that way if i shoot someone through the side with their arms down it will go through the arm and into the side of the torso reaching vital organs. Most of the self defense shootings we face will be straight on and up close. The FBI standards are over kill in most civilian situations anyway. Even the PDX1 ammo would work fine in most situations I prefer the federal but some people like the PDX1.

foochacho
January 29, 2011, 01:49 PM
Not saying this gun is the ultimate SD weapon, just saying IMO it blows any other revolver out of the water. Obviously a 12 gauge is best and a high cap semi auto has it's place as well. All depends on the situation. As a trail gun, truck gun, concealable weapon (especially with the Public defender), or home defense weapon it is a viable option. Not the best choice for each situation but definitely the most versatile.

If people still hate it then oh well but I just think people are misinformed. Before the self defense loads were developed I would of agreed with everyone else, but now it is a different story.

natman
January 29, 2011, 01:50 PM
The box of truth is just as unofficial as my tests yet you and many others seem to have no problem linking to it . I am sick of that box of truth test, no wonder so many people have the misinformed about the usefulness of this gun.

Well the Box O' Truth may be "unofficial", but he publishes his results and as far as I can tell has no particular ax to grind. Sorry if it doesn't show the results you want. It was made with the ammo available at the time.

There may be better ammo available now. I agree that if there is a buckshot load that doesn't flatten out when fired from a Judge it would represent a significant improvement. When reliable, documented test data becomes available I'm perfectly willing to reconsider.

fredneck
January 29, 2011, 02:18 PM
It blows away any self defense revolver? Uh no...the "shotgun" loads penetrate poorly and the thing doesn't shoot 45 Colt worth a dang. I'll take a 4 inch S&W Model 21 44 Special or Model 22 45ACP any day as the ultimate self defense revolver or even a good 3" 357 like a Model 65.

fredneck
January 29, 2011, 02:22 PM
It does have one purpose...a bad a** snake gun. My grandaddy built a house in Florida that was surrounded by boondocks. He'd carry a 22 H&R revolver while mowing grass and blast snakes. He coulda used a Judge to good effect.

natman
January 29, 2011, 02:22 PM
The whole point of the penetration standard is so that the vital organs can be hit form all angles. that way if i shoot someone through the side with their arms down it will go through the arm and into the side of the torso reaching vital organs. Most of the self defense shootings we face will be straight on and up close. The FBI standards are over kill in most civilian situations anyway.

Pretty extreme rationalization. I can get a revolver that's no bigger or heavier than a Judge that WILL make the FBI standards. So why get a Judge and be forced to HOPE that I'll get a favorable shot presentation?

zachkuby87
January 29, 2011, 02:40 PM
i don't know why everyone I getting there panties in a bunch over this it pretty damn stupid if you ask me bottom line if I were doing something crazy and u shot me in the chest with themm sd .410 or whatever they are odds are I'm gonna be done with whatever I was doin that got me shot.. I don't know if any of you have ever seen someone get shot before but I watched a guy get shot by a .22 one single shot to the chest he was stopped dead in his tracks and died on the spot and this was a crazy meth head that broke into my friends garage and had come back later that night with a gun why he didn't shoot my friend back we will never know..... bottom line people are way more fragile than everyone tries to make us seem and I believe 1 well placed .410 shot will convince a bad guy to change his mind if it doesn't kill him that's even better u defused the situation and nobody died win win if you ask me. Ppl can say all day they want the bad guy dead but that's not something you want on your mind I have another friend that killed a guy in self defense he couldn't live with himself and he hung himself two weeks later.. ****s not pretty I think this thread should be locked

foochacho
January 29, 2011, 03:01 PM
Well fredneck apparantly you didn't read anything I posted "penetrates poorly" all my posting showed how it penetrates more than enough. Natman it is better than a regular 6 shot revolver because 20 is better than 6. I can shoot 20 bullets of the same diameter and penetration as any 6 shot .38 revolver. Seems pretty simple to me. Nat if you don't want to believe me then fine but what about any videos posted. Have you watched any iIf not please do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgxuAUajH8w
derringer shooting fed buck loads. Derringer has no barrel Judge does and penetrates further with more velocity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmgeUMMA-Y8
Judge fully penetrating 4x4

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffsond#p/a/u/2/nQdA5Rn9sbg
Destroying 2x12

Fredneck where is this poor penetration? Natman 20 is better than 6 pretty simple math as to why the judge is better.

foochacho
January 29, 2011, 03:13 PM
Pretty extreme rationalization. I can get a revolver that's no bigger or heavier than a Judge that WILL make the FBI standards. So why get a Judge and be forced to HOPE that I'll get a favorable shot presentation?

Natman with the federal load the shot barely spreads compared to regular 410 loads. You will get a favorable shot presentation. From 20 yards they will all stay on a paper plate. 7 yards the spread is pretty minimal 3-4 inches or so. In a high stress situation I bet the judge groups better with the 4 balls than any 4 shots from a .38 or 9mm in rapid fire. 10 feet away it makes about a gulf ball sized pattern covering a bigger area than a single shot of anything else but also perfectly controllable with no flyers. Look at cheapshooters thread about his judge tested from 7 yards out.

BGutzman
January 29, 2011, 03:59 PM
Be sure to tell the BG to approach you from 7 yards or less. :eek:

Absolutely silly plus if you watch the PDX video you quickly learn that if you go more than 15 feet your sending lead somewhere other than just your target.

3 ft per yard x 7 yards = 21 feet.... Humm some bystanders going to have a bad day and your BG isnt getting the full effect.

But like I said above be sure to tell the BG he needs to be 7 yards or less or under 15 feet depending on your view, yea thats going to work... :rolleyes:

Glenn E. Meyer
January 29, 2011, 04:09 PM
I don't want intrinsic spread in an handgun that may be used in a hostage shot. I've done the shotgun hostage shot in training and matches. It is a hard thing.

You want spread for birds. In fact, the people yakking about spread convince me that they don't understand civilan SD shooting and that the gun is dangerous if folks use it for something other than critters.

I don't want to be around someone with little training who fires a spread under stress. Regular shots are dangerous enough. Taken sims rounds as a good guy from a good guy miss.

foochacho
January 29, 2011, 06:29 PM
Bgutzman 7 yards was just an example from cheapshooters pics. If you reread I can still keep all shot on a torso from 20 yards, when are you ever going to fire at someone from 20 yards? Sounds like trouble to me. 10 feet or less is the standard for most self defense situations and if it do go beyond that it can handle that as well . I am talking about the federal load not the PDX there is a difference. Reading comprehension does wonders. If you rapid fire 4 shots I bet my 4 from one cartridge would group better.

Cheapshooter
January 29, 2011, 06:52 PM
Bgutzman 7 yards was just an example from cheapshooters pics.

Keep in mind my shooting was from a brand new Public Defender with a 2" barrel. A gun that I have not shot other than that one session.
Also, the 45 LC accuracy was surprisingly good. Especially from only a 2" barrel, and a cylinder long enough to chamber a 2 1/2" 410 shell.
My first session with the Public Defender has, to me, busted the myth of inaccuracy from a Judge revolver. Buckshot penetration or not, 3 shot shells can be backed up with 2 45 LC. My shooting was done with cowboy action loads of a 200 gr. flat nosed bullet @ 800 fps. Very comfortable to shoot, and certainly bad news for a scumbag BG!

Is Public Defender Poly going to be taking the place of my XD40 Sub on my hip, or Elsie Pea in my pocket, no. She probably will be next to my bed at night though. After I have acquainted myself with her more with a lot more range time.

BGutzman
January 29, 2011, 07:17 PM
Reading comprehension does wonders.

Some resemblance of manners does too. Further if you used your reading comprehension you would know I was specifically talking about PDX.

Further as for your imaginary SD, some of us here have served in recent combat and would have a better idea than an armchair commando.

foochacho
January 29, 2011, 07:30 PM
You were responding to my post about the federal ammo from 7 yds out. I agree that the PDX would be careless when shot from farther out. I would much rather see them add two more disks and ditch the bb's.

BGutzman
January 29, 2011, 07:32 PM
http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l513/bgutzman/Guns/SIGP220CarryInternet.jpg

When you have been a place like this and done this, then come talk to me about tactics and firepower and what causes harm.

Until then enjoy the rights I bled for.

foochacho
January 29, 2011, 07:35 PM
I need to quit responding to these threads, I have made all my points. Whether people read them or not is up to them. I know what it is capable of whether anyone agrees or believes what I say then oh well.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 29, 2011, 07:57 PM
OK, since we have gotten down to personal levels, it's time to shut this down. The points are well made by people with substantial training and experience that if you want to shoot a regular round - why this as an 45platform. The 410 loads may be great if you shoot snakes or don't worry about accuracy and collaterals.

Also, the average distance doesn't mean that will be YOUR distance. I work in a building that is much longer than 7 yards. Wouldn't want to shoot a judge down that hallway, if accuracy counted.

Last, the judge critiques are not for buying a fun gun. I have some. It is, again, for newbies not to be convinced they have a superweapon - as per the commercials.

Closed.