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View Full Version : The new 28ga. Judge


Speedy Warrior
January 17, 2011, 06:01 PM
So it was announced at shot show today that a 28ga. Judge will be available soon. I am posting it here for two reasons,
1. How is this legal and not a sbs?
2. Would it be possible or should I say legal to make a 12ga. pistol without making a sbs?

Please correct me if I am wrong but I understand the laws to state that a pistol cannot have a dia. over .50” and must have a rifled barrel. If the barrel is unrifled then it is classified as a shotgun. Please help as I am very confused. :confused:

oneounceload
January 17, 2011, 06:06 PM
if it has a rifled barrel, it is not a SBS, it is a handgun - how it will be allowed to be imported without handgun ammo is another question

bigghoss
January 17, 2011, 06:46 PM
my guess is they got an exemption similar to big game rifles over .50

gyvel
January 17, 2011, 07:28 PM
Well, 28 gauge equates to a .550" bore, which, assuming the "Judge" is rifled, is going to make it a "destructive device" according to ATF definition.:confused:

PTK
January 18, 2011, 12:25 AM
Yeah, I can't figure it out either. They're not getting those into the country en masse, though.

kozak6
January 18, 2011, 12:51 AM
It can't be an SBS, as it's likely never had a shoulder stock attached.


I'm thinking there's two main possibilities. It could possibly an AOW, and they are hoping the $5 transfer helps with the sting of NFA silliness, or somehow they swung a sporting purposes exemption.

David Hineline
January 18, 2011, 03:01 AM
I'm thinking there's two main possibilities. It could possibly an AOW, and they are hoping the $5 transfer helps with the sting of NFA silliness, or somehow they swung a sporting purposes exemption.

Can't be that imported NFA firearms are Law Enf/Govment Agency only.

kozak6
January 18, 2011, 08:59 AM
I know Taurus imports some of their revolvers with longer barrels to get past the point system and then chops them once they get off the dock.

It might be possible for the 28 gauge to have a more importable configuration, and then be reconfigured stateside.

PTK
January 18, 2011, 01:09 PM
...which would still make it NFA as an AOW. They'd have to put a 21" barrel on it (mostly liner after the shroud) and then chop nearly all of it off to make it a pistol.

Are we SURE CTD isn't just making things up again?

David Hineline
January 18, 2011, 04:43 PM
My guess is that they squeezed the bore down to .499

bigghoss
January 18, 2011, 06:13 PM
OR they got an exemption from the ATF. there are rifles with bores over .50 that have been granted exemptions and can be bought and sold just like anything else.

Ronbo1
January 18, 2011, 10:36 PM
Found a picture of the 28Ga


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/28gaTaurusRagingJudge2.jpg

Cannon
January 19, 2011, 06:51 PM
OR they got an exemption from the ATF. there are rifles with bores over .50 that have been granted exemptions and can be bought and sold just like anything else.

Except there's absolutely no precedent for ATF doing so with handguns, as far as I know. Bowen discusses jumping through the ATF hoops to register his 577 Redhawk as a DD.

Smoothbore pistols are AOW's, regardless of bore; rifled pistols with a bore over .5" are DD's

I'm really curious about this.

chewie146
January 19, 2011, 11:28 PM
Hey all,

There is something to remember. The .410/.45 is more a coincidence than a design. People have been chambering .410 in .454, etc. before the Taurus Judge. The 28 gauge shotgun, as you mentioned, is bigger than .50 caliber. However, that is solely the nominal diameter of the barrel in a shotgun, and not the actual size of the wad/projectiles coming out of the shell. The diameter of a 28 gauge wad may very well be within the .50 cal limit, and that plastic shell could easily measure .025 inches on the "case wall" for an additional .05 inches in diameter. Chamber diameter is unrestricted, as far as I know.

jimbob86
January 19, 2011, 11:36 PM
IF

...... you are going to waste $400 bucks on this.... thing...... why not waste another $200, and do the paperwork, so it would actually..... you know ..... WORK?!?!?!?!

The rifling that makes it "legal" also makes the shot pattern lousy: shot hits everything but what you actually point the damn thing at!

gyvel
January 23, 2011, 02:54 AM
410/.45 and 29 gauge

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey all,

There is something to remember. The .410/.45 is more a coincidence than a design. People have been chambering .410 in .454, etc. before the Taurus Judge. The 28 gauge shotgun, as you mentioned, is bigger than .50 caliber. However, that is solely the nominal diameter of the barrel in a shotgun, and not the actual size of the wad/projectiles coming out of the shell. The diameter of a 28 gauge wad may very well be within the .50 cal limit, and that plastic shell could easily measure .025 inches on the "case wall" for an additional .05 inches in diameter. Chamber diameter is unrestricted, as far as I know.

You bring up a very valid point, but, does BATF define a "destructive device" by the diameter of the projectile or the bore diameter?

smince
January 23, 2011, 02:30 PM
yesterday PM they moved against Taurus on the 28-gauge Raging Judge revolver and the Rossi .410 "mare's leg" style carbine. Neither of the Taurus guns are in production, so the ATF move essentially prohibits production of those guns as anything other than, I believe, an AOW Controlled weapon, with the paperwork and $5 tax.http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2011/01/impending-atf-letter-on-shotguns.html

GunCat
January 23, 2011, 03:59 PM
Jimbob86 wrote:

The rifling that makes it "legal" also makes the shot pattern lousy: shot hits everything but what you actually point the damn thing at!

What defines "rifling" ? * Land and grooves vs. Smooth bore?

What if a bore has straight lands and grooves (no rotation?)

( *I am asking because I do not know the answer as it relates to the NFA/AOW laws )

Pukindog
January 23, 2011, 05:19 PM
Just received notice from Guns America taurus removed the 28 gauge Judge from the booth and will not produce it.

Jeff

EVERLAST
January 24, 2011, 07:27 PM
Talk about crash and burn...
and it was just play by play reading the thread.

cool

E

kozak6
January 25, 2011, 04:10 AM
I wish I knew why Taurus thought they'd be able to slip it by.

And I wish I knew *exactly* why the BATFE zapped it.

There's a lot of speculation, but that's about it.

Speedy Warrior
January 25, 2011, 10:42 AM
Well kozak I would have to guess the BATFE stoppped it because it is in clear violation of well esablished rules. But I too wish to know how/why Taurus thought this would be ok.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 25, 2011, 11:17 AM
Failure of judgement?

Who knows. One would think that they would figure this out - or maybe they thought they could get a little more PR for their entire Judge line with this gun?

kaylorinhi
January 25, 2011, 02:01 PM
Maybe they made it just test the BATFE, or see if they get it by!:p

Poodleshooter
January 25, 2011, 02:02 PM
What defines "rifling" ? * Land and grooves vs. Smooth bore?

What if a bore has straight lands and grooves (no rotation?)
It's not defined as either that I can find. So either would constitute rifling I would assume.
Straight lands and grooves are already used in Hastings barrels (called "Wadlock" IIRC). AOWs can't have rifling by definition, unless they are a pistol or revolver modified with a vertical firing grip.

The Raging Judge in its configuration as displayed would be a DD unless the secretary of the treasury decided that it had a sporting purpose under the exception for shotguns. This is already done for shotguns sold with rifled barrels, for example, which don't otherwise fit the ATF definition of shotguns (having a smooth bore).

Remember, all shotguns over .5" bore can be redefined as "non-sporting" at will by the the Sec of the Treasury, at which point they become DDs. This is how ATF "redefined" the Striker 12. Rifling is irrelevant to the DD law.

p99guy
January 27, 2011, 12:07 PM
gunsamerica blog is reporting this morning that ATF has flip flopped again and its back to being allowed as a over the counter revolver

precision_shooter
January 28, 2011, 08:56 AM
Here is a question for ya,

If the 28 guage judge would not be legal becuase of the rifled barrel being over .50", then why is a 20 or 12 guage shotgun legal with a rifled slug barrel that easily measure over .60"? Rifling is Rifling, and form the earlier posts, anything over .50" that is rifled is classified as a destructive device....

twobit
January 28, 2011, 09:29 AM
The never ending courtroom saga of the Judge (Taurus) vs. the jury (BATF). Has all the makings of a new reality show :rolleyes: (based on the great movie"My Cousin Vinny" starring the late Fred Gwynn of Herman Munster fame).

Cousin Vinny: You see your Honor these two yoots were bird hunting in Jersey with the 28 gauge Taurus...

Fred Gwynn: Councilor, just what is a yoot?

Vinny:These two (points at defendants) you know yoots!

Gwynn: Oh, yooooths! carry on.

Vinny: Anyhows, these two (PAUSE) yoooooths were bird hunting and were jumped by these wiseguys, so's they whip out their 28 ga. shotgun, er, pistol, er shotgun.....oh what the...., their Blaster!, and defended themselves against these evildoers.

Gwynn: Just what kind of birds am I to believe there are to be in Jersey?

Vinny: Pigeons, your Honor, nasty filthy left wing pigeons!

Gwynn: Why didn't you say that in the first place, Not Guilty! That was the issue before this court, wasn't it?

Sarge
January 28, 2011, 09:44 AM
This is another one of those unexplainable marketing efforts which to me, defies logic.

Still, the nominal bore diameter of the 28 gauge is .550 inches... and I could have me some fun with brass cases, 425 grain .54 cal Hornady Great Plains bullets and healthy doses of black powder. Ought to be just the ticket for rabbits in Momma's garden ;)

Jim Watson
January 28, 2011, 10:23 AM
Hamilton Bowen converted a Redhawk to .577 Tranter.
He said it was a fun gun but the paperwork hassle made it too much trouble to do on a regular basis.

kozak6
January 28, 2011, 10:36 AM
If the 28 guage judge would not be legal becuase of the rifled barrel being over .50", then why is a 20 or 12 guage shotgun legal with a rifled slug barrel that easily measure over .60"? Rifling is Rifling, and form the earlier posts, anything over .50" that is rifled is classified as a destructive device....

It can lawfully be over .50 cal if it is suitable for sporting purposes.

We also haven't established that the 28 gauge Judge is over .50, as that clearly puts it into murky territory. 28 gauge, or .55 cal, isn't that far from .50 cal. Chances are, the barrel diameter funnels down to a hair under .50 just to stay on the safe side.

oneounceload
January 28, 2011, 11:04 AM
Here is a question for ya,

If the 28 guage judge would not be legal becuase of the rifled barrel being over .50", then why is a 20 or 12 guage shotgun legal with a rifled slug barrel that easily measure over .60"? Rifling is Rifling, and form the earlier posts, anything over .50" that is rifled is classified as a destructive device....

Because certain exemptions were granted for BP guns and sporting shotguns and dangerous game rifles

Why this isn't classified an AOW, I still don't get - it isn't a SBS as it has no shoulder stock, it is a handgun for which there is no handgun ammunition available.......

Webleymkv
January 28, 2011, 11:21 AM
If the 28 guage judge would not be legal becuase of the rifled barrel being over .50", then why is a 20 or 12 guage shotgun legal with a rifled slug barrel that easily measure over .60"? Rifling is Rifling, and form the earlier posts, anything over .50" that is rifled is classified as a destructive device....


Anything with a rifled barrel over .50" is a destructive device unless the ATF grants a "sporting purpose" exemption. Rifled-barrel shotguns and certain African-game cartridges like .577, .600, and .700 Nitro have been granted sporting purpose exemptions. The ATF does not seem, however, overly willing to grant such exemptions to handguns. The .50 AE Desert Eagle was delayed because of confusion over the bore diameter.

Poodleshooter
January 28, 2011, 12:20 PM
Why this isn't classified an AOW, I still don't get - it isn't a SBS as it has no shoulder stock, it is a handgun for which there is no handgun ammunition available.......

AOWs are specifically stated in the law as not having rifling (which the Raging Judge has). The only exception to this definition is for pistols with a vertical forend firing grip added.

And yes, all it would take is a decision from the Treasury Secretary to make every shotgun over .410 into a destructive device. Shotguns over .5" bore are all DD's by virtue of bore diameter,but are granted exemption via the sporting purposes clause which allows exemptions for shotguns (but does not require them).
Note: A DD does not need rifling to be a DD.

Ridge_Runner_5
January 28, 2011, 06:07 PM
The ATF announced this past Monday that they are blocking the new Judge because Taurus lied on the import application, labeling it a revolver instead of a SBS...

kozak6
January 30, 2011, 07:39 PM
Do you have an authoritative link?

garyhan
January 31, 2011, 05:06 AM
The death of the Raging Judge was pure internet rumor. ATF approved and good to go. www.americanrifleman.org/blogs/quashing-raging-judge-rumors.

gary

gyvel
January 31, 2011, 05:17 AM
The bottom line here is: Who needs it? Just another stupid marketing ploy.

But then, hey!, we're the nation that buys pet rocks, Elvis collector plates, beenie babies and Lincoln pickup trucks.

everragenepa
January 31, 2011, 05:31 AM
The bottom line here is: Who needs it? Just another stupid marketing ploy.

Everyone a firearm is a firearm and this is the United States of America the more the merrier. I dont care that is something that dont grab my interest it will somones and that someone might just be a new firearm owner.

I also HATE that everyone just accepts the "sporting purpose" game. Were in 2nd admendment does it say anything about sporting purpose.

natman
January 31, 2011, 12:42 PM
I also HATE that everyone just accepts the "sporting purpose" game. Were in 2nd admendment does it say anything about sporting purpose.

Nowhere.

However, the Gun Control Act of 1968 bans the IMPORT, let me repeat, IMPORT of ALL firearms into the US unless the BATF decides that it has "sporting purpose".

If it's made in the US, then it's more open. If it's IMPORTED, then the BATF gets to decide if it's sporting.

Rob62
February 2, 2011, 12:02 AM
Threat tagged. Cause I also don't get how this can be imported.

On a side note. If this could be sold as a "regular" pistol firing conventional 28ga shot shells - it might do alright sales wise here in the USA.

PTK
February 2, 2011, 12:22 AM
I simply do not believe the American Rifleman link, as the 28ga Judge is clearly over .5" bore... BATFE wouldn't issue an exemption for a shotgun pistol, there is no precedent.

Skans
February 2, 2011, 09:39 AM
I've got a question about this Taurus Judge .28 gauge. Assuming that it was a smoothbore, and assuming that legality was not an issue, is there really that much difference between it and a .410 gauge in a pistol format? Would it make a bigger "boom", a bigger hole or a more devistating impact?

Poodleshooter
February 2, 2011, 11:36 AM
I've got a question about this Taurus Judge .28 gauge. Assuming that it was a smoothbore, and assuming that legality was not an issue, is there really that much difference between it and a .410 gauge in a pistol format? Would it make a bigger "boom", a bigger hole or a more devistating impact
If it was a smoothbore, it would be an AOW or SBS most likely. Its only chance for Title I status is with a rifled barrel and getting sporting purpose exemption from the DD definition.
Anyway, assuming it's an easily procurable Title I weapon, it would lose the .410 Judge's ability to use .45 Colt,which is the most effective load that pistol has. Unlike .410,there are no slugs or buckshot made for the 28ga that I know of. So users would have to use the few 28ga bird shot loads available, making the weapon even more useless for self defense.
It is pure marketing genius!
I for one look forward to more unique Taurus self defense products, like "The Bailiff", a unique 17 pound, 50 shot .22 short pepperbox, and "The Juror" a 10ga, 2 shot, lightweight side by side derringer.

TheGoldenState
February 2, 2011, 11:54 AM
I for one look forward to more unique Taurus self defense products, like "The Bailiff", a unique 17 pound, 50 shot .22 short pepperbox, and "The Juror" a 10ga, 2 shot, lightweight side by side derringer.

:D:D:D

Skans
February 2, 2011, 12:42 PM
"The Juror" a 10ga, 2 shot, lightweight side by side derringer.

Oh, that was funny!:D::D

abelacres
February 2, 2011, 12:54 PM
"The Juror" a 10ga, 2 shot, lightweight side by side derringer.

I'd buy 2 of those.

Skans
February 2, 2011, 12:56 PM
I'd buy 2 of those.

Yeah, but would you shoot them? For that matter, has anyone ever seen a short barrel 10 gauge?

Follow up: Well, I had to go and google SBS 10 gauge, and of course I found one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypnqXJN6H2k