PDA

View Full Version : help identifying a rifle (mosin nagant?)


s2thalayer
January 17, 2011, 07:20 AM
I need someone to help me identify this rifle. i bought it off of a guy a while back for like 50 bucks. he claimed he had no idea what the rifle was. i identified it as a Finnish M91 Mosin Nagant, but im far from an expert on old rifles. It has all the characteristics of a mosin, fires 7.62x54, has a recoil from hell, blows any scope or muzzle brake off that i put on it, and on an ID site, the ID number on the receiver appeared to be the Finnish 91/30. The thing that has me doubting, funny enough, is the stock. I have image searched mosins everywhere and never seen another stock like this on one.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs006.snc6/165636_10150123253669882_619079881_7584423_1784161_n.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs733.ash1/162722_10150123253979882_619079881_7584425_7976197_n.jpg

Pukindog
January 17, 2011, 07:41 AM
The stock does not appear original to the gun if it is a Finnish rifle. The Finnish Mosins had a semi-pistol grip full length stock. Your stock is a cut down Mosin stock of some sort complete with an after market recoil pad. I am not sure about the rear sight being Finnish or if the rifle has a Finnish proof mark on the receiver.

Jeff

rickyrick
January 17, 2011, 09:18 AM
Looks like a regular hacked up mosin stock.
time for one of them ati stocks since the original is gone.

Jimro
January 17, 2011, 11:17 AM
Looks like a Russian from the proof mark over the chamber. If it were Finnish you would see a very distinctive Finnish proof mark. The Sako Gear was common on Finnish Mosins, although Tikka was also common.

The arrow in triangle at the base looks like an Izhevsk mark, but the D usually means that it has been verified by a Finnish arsenal to accept the D166 blank cartridge. So you could have a Russian manufactured Finnish capture rifle, but the barrel is still Russian. Of course if you could clean up the markings it would really help with a more precise identification.

Jimro

carguychris
January 17, 2011, 11:36 AM
The stock does not appear original to the gun if it is a Finnish rifle. The Finnish Mosins had a semi-pistol grip full length stock.
Not correct; only the M39 and later Finn models had pistol grips. There are a whole bunch of earlier Finnish models that had a basically unchanged M1891 stock profile.

However, this is besides the point- IMHO this is not a Finnish rifle! This rifle has a hooded front sight like a Soviet M91/30, whereas early Finns had a unhooded blade while late Finns had flared "ear" sight protectors similar to an American M1903 or M1 Garand. The rear sight is also wrong for most Finnish rifles. Most had a distinctive serrated profile and an arched leaf.

I think this is a garden-variety WWII-era Soviet M91/30 with a cut-down stock. I think that the bottom mark on the barrel is an Izhevsk arsenal mark that has been ground down; all of the markings look too shallow for a typical Soviet rifle, and based on the gun's lack of finish, this may be the result of a former owner's misguided attempt to refinish the metal. :rolleyes: The Soviet finish was generally pretty durable; I've seen Soviet rifles that were rusted or badly scratched, but never one with finish that was simply GONE, so I think this one has been purposefully stripped. (Polish- and Romanian-built rifles are another story, but I digress.)

FWIW I would STRONGLY suggest having this rifle carefully checked out by someone familiar with Mosin-Nagants before you fire it again. A plainly-visible poorly-executed garage gunsmith hack job often indicates additional hacking that's not plainly visible. :(

jrinne0430
January 17, 2011, 12:02 PM
I agree with the above post that it does not look Finnish but I could be wrong. If it is Finnish, many of them had a .308 bore as compared to the .311 Russian rifles. So firing the .311 bullet through the .308 bore can cause some increased recoil.

s2thalayer
January 17, 2011, 12:12 PM
thanks everyone for your help! this has been very enlightening. Im a modern rifle guy and i dont know anything about these old rifles. I found some identification site that identified the rifle by telling them the barrel length then the year number, then they show you markings and see if they match and tell you what it is. it registered as a Finnish, but it seems you guys' greater knowledge has pretty much disproved that. its only been shot a few times, and i have always been worried about its shape because i too suspected a novice gunsmith. I havent fired it yet and i plan to have it taken to the local gunsmith and getting the barrel refinished and making a few modifications myself.

btw, i got a 91/30 mosin muzzle brake and nothing in this world would make it fit on this rifle. idk if that helps any. Now for what i plan to do with this, im sure this wont be very popular but i wanted to try out a bullpup stock with this for a couple reasons: 1) it has a picatinny rail system on it so the scope will actually stay on and zeroed, 2) ability to secure a bipod to the stock, 3) modernization. If this stock is really just worthless, i feel justified in doing this anyway. But my question is this: I understand that these rifles are very cheap and abundant. Before i go refinishing or anything like that, does this rifle being Soviet or any of that make it something i should work on getting back to original standards, or just another rifle?

rickyrick
January 17, 2011, 01:04 PM
Don't give up, if it all checks out good you could still have a fun shooter regardless of appearance... since the stock is obviously altered it would be a good candidate for accessories

carguychris
January 17, 2011, 01:52 PM
If it is Finnish, many of them had a .308 bore as compared to the .311 Russian rifles. So firing the .311 bullet through the .308 bore can cause some increased recoil.
Actually, it would more likely cause a gun-destroying kB! :eek:

The Soviet rifles were usually built with slightly oversize bores, probably to prevent catastrophic failures if fired with dirty ammo, but AFAIK all vintage ComBloc milsurp ammo is actually loaded with 0.308"-caliber bullets. You generally won't find any factory or milsurp ammo in 0.311" caliber; such ammo is usually handloaded by enthusiasts to increase accuracy of a rifle known to have an oversized bore.

Besides, nothing I see on this rifle indicates a Finnish barrel. They normally have a slightly different profile, don't have Soviet arsenal markings, and don't have Soviet sights on them.
But my question is this: I understand that these rifles are very cheap and abundant. Before i go refinishing or anything like that, does this rifle being Soviet or any of that make it something i should work on getting back to original standards, or just another rifle?
Frankly, it is Just Another Rifle. You can still mail-order unmolested M91/30s for $60-$120 depending on condition and markings, and the price for a garden-variety round-receiver WWII Izhevsk should fall at the low end of that range. (Of course, you'll have to add shipping costs, and transfer fees if you're not a C&R licensee.) For this price, IMHO it is not worthwhile to try to restore this rifle.

Also, for this price, neither is it worthwhile to repair the rifle if the action and/or trigger mechanism have been screwed up by the previous owner. I'd order a fresh M91/30 and chalk it up to experience. :(

MikeG
January 17, 2011, 02:16 PM
If it's a Finn, it should have an SA in a rectangular box stamped on the barrel shank. In that case it may be worthwhile to get a new stock and restore it.

Did the previous owner really spray paint it silver?

s2thalayer
January 17, 2011, 03:29 PM
...looks like it bro. This is cruel and unusual.


the picture i took doesnt show too well, but i found this on google images.
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/0106_small.jpg
that is almost exactly how mine is. The ID number is a bit neater, and there is a "D" just below the ID number. those are the only differences. So i suppose i have a soviet rifle.

rickyrick
January 17, 2011, 03:53 PM
That's a Russian alright.

s2thalayer
January 18, 2011, 09:00 AM
so im curious what exactly some of these markings mean. I looked up the triangle with the arrow and it appears to be the Izhevsk arsenal mark. What is the leaf at the top with the anchor? and the D, i believe someone said it means its a Finnish capture or something?

MikeG
January 18, 2011, 11:36 AM
The Finns used a 'D' stamp to show the barrel's throat was relieved to allow use of their heavy ball ammo. It may have been a Soviet rifle captured by the Finns and refurbished for their use. Does it have the SA?

Stocks are available here:
http://www.buymilsurp.com/mosin-nagant-parts-accessories-mosin-nagant-stocks-handguards-c-2_10.html

If it was mine, I'd clean the paint off, replace the cut up stock and restore it to original configuration.

tchunter
January 18, 2011, 11:52 AM
I have a gun that has a very similar look. The only thing stamped on it is a number that starts with a backward N and capital R. Anyone have any idea what that is?

jrinne0430
January 18, 2011, 12:31 PM
AFAIK all vintage ComBloc milsurp ammo is actually loaded with 0.308"-caliber bullets

I have not seen this with my surplus ammo. The steel core Bulgarian bullets mic'd around .3105. I pulled a few in hopes of using them in my 30-06 but were too large.

s2thalayer
January 18, 2011, 01:00 PM
Thanks mikeG. I decided today that I am going to restore it. I'm a huge ww2 buff. But I still like the bullpup idea so I'm going to buy another mosin and take its stock to put on this one because of the cool capture story. Ill use the other mosin for the bullpup and maybe retire this one if it truely has interior damage.

CLC
January 18, 2011, 01:10 PM
Im also a WWII buff and have a butt tone of mosins and it might not be popular but id just do what you want to that one and save the money and buy a good shape original Finnish 91 or 91/30. It be really cool to get a NEW or Remington. Im no expert though

raftman
January 18, 2011, 02:02 PM
What is the leaf at the top with the anchor?

The 2nd most recognizable political symbol of the 20th Century.

s2thalayer
January 18, 2011, 02:13 PM
yeah, looked it up. slapped myself.

DE Shooter
January 18, 2011, 06:05 PM
Go to Mosin-Nagant.net or 7.62x54r.net and see for yourself. There are too many beautiful arsenal refurbed M91/30s and M44s (and other MN models) around for way less than it would cost you to re-do this rifle to anywhere near milsurp condition. But, if you tried, you would certainly learn alot about em. To Bubba or Un-Bubba...that is the question?

.300 Weatherby Mag
January 18, 2011, 06:28 PM
recoil from hell

These do not kick that bad...

rickyrick
January 19, 2011, 08:08 AM
My mosin seems like it weighs twice that of my Enfield the Enfield has a much sharper kick

s2thalayer
January 19, 2011, 10:06 AM
picked up a 1941 Russian M91 yesterday. the wood is in rough shape but im a carpenter, so ill give it a shot at refinishing myself. Ill put the stock from the one on the former mosin, and I hear there is a gunsmith down the road that does barrel refinishing so ill give it to him to get the spraypaint off and refinish. The bullpup kits are on backorder so for the time being ill research some alternative methods to refinishing this second one. Maybe a custom stock or something...im not really too fond of the montecarlos.