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View Full Version : Mosin-Nagant, good gun or not??


deepvalley
January 9, 2011, 08:57 AM
I went to the gun show and was looking over the tables when an old gun caught my eye. It is an 91/30 Mosin-Nagant made in Tula, Russia. I bought it on the guns reputation alone for $105 and was wondering what others that have one thought of them. I have not shot it yet due to weather but it is clean and as far as I can tell, fully functional.

Mosinnagant
January 9, 2011, 09:05 AM
Yeah thy are good buys and cheap to shoot. Do you have any pics?

kraigwy
January 9, 2011, 10:47 AM
I have not shot it yet due to weather

Those suckers are made to be shot in the winter. Germans found that out on the Eastern Front. Don't forget the "Winter War".

You can tell if it will shoot by looking at the bore. If you have a decent bore it will probably shoot. Assuming you have a good bore, the I believe the difference between a good Mosin and a bad Mosin is the shooter. If the shooter is willing to put in the time and effort, they are shooters.

One can learn to shoot the Mosin, like most guns, without spending a great deal of money. That being lots of dry firing. Get some stripper clips, load some dummy rounds and practice loading and firing (dry) in different positions.

That will also loosen (smoothen) out the bolt. Practice working that bolt.
Odd thing I've found about the Mosin is it seems to be easy to shoot off hand (standing). I think its the long barrel that helps dampen the movement.

I don't shoot surplus ammo out of my Mosin. I bought a bunch of Winchester factory stuff to get the brass and reload for it. I got mine to use in CMP GSM Vintage Military Matches. You only have to shoot to 200 yards so I load light.

Most Mosins shoot high, if thats the case with your rifle let me know, I'll tell you how to fix it while keeping it "as issued" per CMP Rules.

One reason I like the Mosin is its cheap (price wise), and will allow anyone to get into competition without breaking the bank.

They are fun to shoot and if one is willing to put in the effort, they can shoot very will.

Brenten
January 9, 2011, 12:51 PM
had one and absolutely loved it. Mine was made in 1937 and could print 2 inch groups at 100 yards with the occasional flyer. Not bad in my opinion, for a rifle that was made pre WWII. 7.62x54 is a powerful cartridge.

HawkeyeNRAlifer
January 9, 2011, 01:08 PM
That's not a bad price. They are a very robust rifle with a long history, going back to the 19th century. And they are still being used in places like Afghanistan and parts of Africa. After shooting this one you may get bitten by the bug and start acquiring more. I have four different models, and the one with the best trigger was built in 1942. The barrel still has lathe marks and the rest of it is rough, but the trigger is like butter and it shoots very well. Don't normally see that in mid-war production.

Bulldawg55
January 9, 2011, 01:10 PM
I've got one with a laminated stock, which has a dark bore but strong rifling.
Groups have been decent but high. I belive they're zeroed in for 200 yards and my outdoor range is only 100, which puts the grouping high. I put some shrink tube on the front post to lower the point of aim but haven't tried it yet.
It's a fun, inexpensive gun to shoot.

PawPaw
January 9, 2011, 03:46 PM
Most Mosins shoot high,

I've been told that's because the Russian conscripts were taught to use the belt buckle as an aiming point. If a target presented itself at 100 yards, a belt-buckle aiming point would put the shot high, in the abdomen or chest cavity.

It extended the battlesight range of the rifle.

Kreyzhorse
January 9, 2011, 04:15 PM
They are very good plinking guns for the money and the 7.62x54R is no slouch cartridge. They are great at the range and can certainly be used on deer sized game if you wanted a cheap hunting rifle.

Ultra12
January 9, 2011, 04:41 PM
Mine easily punches a hole in a quarter at 50 yards

DoctorXring
January 9, 2011, 04:54 PM
.

The Mosin Nagant action is an excellent action. Although considered
dated when compared to the mauser action, it is very competent.
Strong, reliable, and has proven itself so in combat conditions. Some
of the rifles may exhibit crude finishing, but they are well built and
can be very accurate. The 7.62x54R is a potent cartridge, having
comparable ballistics to a 30-06 or 308 Winchester. They were fielded
by the millions by Russia and some other eastern countries. The
91/30 is one of my very favorite rifles to shoot. There will be cheap
ammo available for these for many years to come.

Congrats on your new rifle !

dxr

.

Gunplummer
January 9, 2011, 04:58 PM
The question was "Are they good guns?". Good for what? Good if you want to plink at the range. They suck to hunt with. Been there done that. Safety is unhandy, sucks to mount a scope. Changed one over to 30-40 Krag, changed bolt and moved the bolt handle behind the bridge, filled in the receiver bridge and mounted the scope on center, added Timney trigger. It was a fun project, but it just was not a handy hunting rifle and it weighed a lot. You want a good gun to hunt with, go buy a Mauser or Arisaka that some one stripped down to hunt with. Plenty around cheap and ammo available also.

Bamashooter
January 9, 2011, 05:17 PM
I have 3 mosin nagants. With the right ammo they are accurate shooters. One of mine is a 91/59 that is very light for a mosin. I shot a big doe with it over 100yrds away with S&B that was loaded with 174gr. sierra bullets. It tore that doe up on the exit. Point is they are good rifles for the money and with good ammo and the right mosin they are effective hunters. So congrats, you will enjoy it.

TX Hunter
January 9, 2011, 05:23 PM
Yes the Mosin is a good strong field rifle,
Very durable, and fun to shoot.
Ammo for them is still very plentiful,and reloading componants are available as well.

snipecatcher
January 9, 2011, 05:47 PM
I had 3. A friend wanted one, so he got one of the 3 before any of them were shot. The two I ended up with would not stay on a sheet of paper at 100 yards. His would shoot 2-3" groups at 100. May have had something to do with stock contact with the barrel, or the bores may have been overly large for the ammo I had, but I got rid of both of them and don't regret it. If I had one that shot worth a darn, I'd probably love it. They are solidly built. Some of them just aren't accurate though. It's a crapshoot.
-Dan

essohbe
January 9, 2011, 06:00 PM
Mosins are my favorite surplus rifles. I haven't shot a bad one yet. I prefer the carbines but the full-length rifles are awesome also.

30-30remchester
January 9, 2011, 07:07 PM
Having had and shot many, I have also studied then extensively. They are brute tough and built "soldier proof".That being said they are for the most part pporly finished and difficult to operate. Sticky bolts are common. Like any wartime production arm, they are rather crude. As stated they can be hard to spoterize as the design doesnt lend itself to scoping. If you get the sights regulated properly they are amazingly accurate for a military gun.

mwar410
January 9, 2011, 07:15 PM
got to love a gun whose ammo costs more than the gun! They are great surplus rifles, along as the bore is somewhat clean. Usually hard to tell from all the cosmoline.

Rob3
January 9, 2011, 07:32 PM
I have a long barrel and two short barrel ones with bayonets. The only thing that limits them is the quality of the ammo. Lots of cheap surplus out there for plinking and accurate commercial ammo for hunting. Those steel butt plates are no joke though.

43FLcracker
January 9, 2011, 07:42 PM
Cant beat the price, good gun to plink with.

Ticonderoga
January 10, 2011, 06:03 AM
I'm gonna disagree with gun plumber - if you have an accurate Mosin, they are great deer guns. I have one of the long barreled jobs and I had the bolt turned a scope put on it by a gunsmith. It regularly shoots 2" at 100 yards with surplus ammo. I selected a rifle with a bright and shiny bore with very sharp edges and rifling at the crown. I bought mine back in '93 when they were just coming in. The importer had connexes full of them and a buddy and I spent 1/2 the day selecting ours. We paid $49 for them out the door.

With Sellier & Bellot (spelling?) 180gr SP rounds, mine holds just under 1 1/4" at 100 yards.

The round is on par with a 30/06 & is a bit stronger than a .308

The 180gr round makes for excellent deer medicine.

Gunplummer
January 10, 2011, 04:14 PM
You are confusing good gun with good round. I have actually talked to two guys that said when they sit for deer with theirs they have the safety off. I have an old Carcano that shoots a lot better than 1 1/2 " groups, but it is a lousy deer gun. The scope is unhandy to use (side mount), and the safety is also unhandy to use. Carcanos have been around in large quantities for many years and I only ever saw one in the deer woods. Point is, if you want a cheap, handy, deer hunting gun, you would be a lot better off with a Mauser, .303 British (They strip down pretty light), or an Arisaka. You rarely have to dig through piles of them to find good shooters.

Bamashooter
January 10, 2011, 06:21 PM
you rarely have to dig through a pile to find a good mosin. I dont get why everyone is whinning about the safety. Its not that big a deal. If it works, be thankful it has one. All 3 that I have will shoot QUALITY ammo pretty good.

Ticonderoga
January 10, 2011, 06:56 PM
Gunplumber writes:

You are confusing good gun with good round. I have actually talked to two guys that said when they sit for deer with theirs they have the safety off. I have an old Carcano that shoots a lot better than 1 1/2 " groups, but it is a lousy deer gun. The scope is unhandy to use (side mount), and the safety is also unhandy to use. Carcanos have been around in large quantities for many years and I only ever saw one in the deer woods. Point is, if you want a cheap, handy, deer hunting gun, you would be a lot better off with a Mauser, .303 British (They strip down pretty light), or an Arisaka. You rarely have to dig through piles of them to find good shooters.

Really? The safety is too difficult to engage? My 9 year old nephew can disengage the safety and in total silence (as needed for hunting). I don't want to throw stones but anyone who CAN'T disengage a Mosin safety either has an ailment (my mistake) or needs to get to the gym.

Not a "good" deer gun? Sure, when compared to my Rem 700 in .308, it is an old "tired" gun, with a heavy and trigger pull and a "HEAVY" safety. But, compared to a .243 it has more stopping power, it certainly is better medicine for a deer than a handgun, a .223 or a muzzle loader yet a lot hunt deer with those.

Perhaps shooting Bambi at the feeder or the water hole is a bit too EASY with the .308 Rem 700. Perhaps "handicapping" myself with an ancient WWI rifle puts some "sport" back in the hunt. I dunno - perhaps that is why I also bowhunt...

Shane Tuttle
January 10, 2011, 08:31 PM
Really? The safety is too difficult to engage?

Where has Gunplummer stated this?

Not a "good" deer gun? Sure, when compared to my Rem 700 in .308, it is an old "tired" gun, with a heavy and trigger pull and a "HEAVY" safety. But, compared to a .243 it has more stopping power, it certainly is better medicine for a deer than a handgun, a .223 or a muzzle loader yet a lot hunt deer with those.

you rarely have to dig through a pile to find a good mosin.

I don't think we're talking about digging through piles of Mosins like finding a DVD in the clearance table at Walmart. However, with the exception of Remington 870s, every time I pilfer through the selection of Mosins at gun stores it's a chore to find one that's actually worth buying. Yes, they're cheap. Yes, I can find one with a "that'll do 'er" label. But the sheer number available and price has me "looking through the pile". It's both common to find accurate and not-so-accurate ones out there (in terms of my definition of "accurate" anyway).

For the record, I think Mosins are one heckuva rifle. The cartridge has been around forever and a day for a reason. But they're far from being the end-all be-all with no drawbacks to the design.

kozak6
January 10, 2011, 10:21 PM
The difficulty of using the safety varies WILDLY from rifle to rifle.

My brother got a fairly new rifle with a BEEFY spring and it's a tremendous fight to deal with, whereas the safety on my Mosin is no problem.

Condition also varies wildly, and it's entirely possible you will have difficulty finding a good one.

Bamashooter
January 10, 2011, 10:24 PM
gunplummer stated... the safety is unhandy to use.. I think its diffrent, certainly managable. All the mosin's I have bought have been all matching #'s guns with no major issues. Im sure if I had a ''pile'' to dig through I could find one that wasnt so great.

Ignition Override
January 10, 2011, 10:32 PM
They have plenty of cheap power, i.e. "Enemy At The Gates". An actual video from the Eastern Front reportedly depicts a round knocking down a German soldier, then wounding or killing a second soldier.
For a bit of extra money, seasoned collectors Always prefer the authentic Finnish rifles.

My MN 44 put a bullet hole through both sides of a large green steel oxygen cylinder. The cylinder stood about four feet high.
The round was typical 50's yellow-tip Bulgarian surplus from the dusty gray can.
Can typical surplus 8mm Yugo or Czech ammo also do this from my Yugo Mauser 48A?

T-90
January 11, 2011, 05:59 PM
Ahhh...the love of the old war girl known as the Mosin Nagant. Great rifle, probably my favorite WW2 bolt action rifle; with the Mauser coming in second. Nothing like firing the M 91/30 and pretty much hitting what you aim at. Its not whether you can hit a 2 liter bottle at 100 yards. Its what part of it do you want to hit. ;)

Shane Tuttle
January 11, 2011, 10:37 PM
gunplummer stated... the safety is unhandy to use.. I think its diffrent, certainly managable.

Huh. Aren't I an idiot....

I thought unhandy just meant not convenient to use, not difficult. :o

raftman
January 11, 2011, 10:48 PM
The difficulty of using the safety varies WILDLY from rifle to rifle.

Yep... the same is also true of how smoothly the bolt operates and how prone it is to sticking. The bolt on my buddy's 91/30 seems very crudely finished, doesn't work smoothly, and very prone to sticking, the bolt on my M44 in contrast is far more nicely finished, works smoothly and doesn't stick no matter how much it gets shot.

Gunplummer
January 12, 2011, 04:08 AM
If you can disengage a Russian rifle safety, while walking around, and not taking one of your hands off the gun, then you really are good. By the time you get the gun back up the deer is long gone. Never really looked in to it, but a simple cross-bar safety might be feasible.

handgunchick
January 12, 2011, 05:52 AM
My husband just got his for Christmas, after much anticipation. We went to the gun range with it, and he found it was quite accurate (he was expecting it to shoot high). His main complaint about them is that the recoil is so horrible with the steel butt that he has to get a pad for the end of it. His dad told us some shooters used maxi pads as butt pads for them (lol)! He really likes it anyway, and besides, how many (reliable) guns can you buy for just over $100?

The Great Mahoo
January 12, 2011, 02:10 PM
His main complaint about them is that the recoil is so horrible with the steel butt that he has to get a pad for the end of it. His dad told us some shooters used maxi pads as butt pads for them (lol)!

I put one of these on my Mosin, more to add to the length of pull than for recoil. I was surprised how much it helped with recoil, making it much more enjoyable to shoot. Cheap and easy to install, but it still pained me to take the rifle out of its issued condition. But not as much as it hurt to fire a few dozen rounds through without it...

http://www.combathunting.com/product.cgi?group=205&product=11588

chasep255
January 12, 2011, 05:55 PM
I used to buy crappy airsoft guns for more. I got a mosin off of Buds Gun Shop and it was in near perfect condition. It shot nicely as well. For the price I would be happy with anything that shoots.

L_Killkenny
January 12, 2011, 06:12 PM
Is it good for what? Your use may dictate the answer. You also have to ask in compared to what. In general, the Mosin's are crudly finished clubs that throw lead. Some fairly well, some not so well. And if they are all that good why are they less than $100? Even in the realm of milsurps the Mosins are much less saught after than about any other milsurp available. There's gotta be a reason. If you think the Mosin is good than what would you call bad? There just isn't that many rifles out there worse than them. People like them because they are cheap not because they are good. Price em at $300 and they'd sit on the shelves to never be bought. It's a supply and demand thing and the supply isn't all that great and neither is the demand. Again, ask yourself why.

LK

raftman
January 12, 2011, 07:28 PM
And if they are all that good why are they less than $100?

Gee.... I dunno... could it have a little to do with the fact that 37 MILLION Mosin Nagants were manufactured in Russia alone throughout the rifle's history?

Even in the realm of milsurps the Mosins are much less saught after than about any other milsurp available. There's gotta be a reason.

Again... you never stopped to consider that there seem to be by far more of them out there than any other mil-surp rifle?

Price em at $300 and they'd sit on the shelves to never be bought.

I'm not so sure about that... the carbine versions have already steadily risen in price. A few years ago an M44 or M38 could easily be found for $80, lately, in this area at least, you'd be getting a good deal if you pay $150, and $180 is pretty common. They do sell.

It's a supply and demand thing and the supply isn't all that great and neither is the demand. Again, ask yourself why.


What in the heck are you yammering on about? Supply isn't that great? The supply of them is greater than any other mil-surp firearm out there.

L_Killkenny
January 12, 2011, 08:40 PM
How many were imported to the U.S.? What are their numbers as compared to other guns? I'm willin to bet that more Springfields and Enfields are in the U.S. than Mosins. U.S. Production sporter bolt actions smoke the Mosin numbers.

Basically, all the Mosin fans skirt the question. 2 thing..... For a gun to be good a majority of it's features should be good and for a gun to be good it should at least be average or better when stacked up against the competition. The Mosin falls on it's face on both fronts. The question is not whether or not the Mosin is a good value but rather is it a good gun. The other Milsurps smoke it and so do 95% (or more) of production U.S. rifles.

Rifle Traits:
Mosin Trigger? Fail
Mosin Ergos? Fail
Mosin Accuracy? Fail
Mosin Handling? Fail
Mosin Action? Fail
Mosin Durability? A
Mosin Firepower? A

Guess 2 outta 7 traits when stacked up against all the other rifles available to us here in the U.S. isn't bad. Cough, Cough.

The only attractive thing about the Mosins are price and the price of ammo. Those in itself doesn't make it a good gun. Maybe a value but not good gun. You price them at the same price as a Savage ($300) and only a fool or collector would touch them. You price em the same as a Springfield, Mauser, Enfiled, Etc and only a fool or a collector would touch them. $150-$180 is a long ways below the competition. I guess if you don't think good is a direct comparison to the competitive than yes, a mosin may be a good gun. As compared to a rock.

Compare the Mosin rifle to the revolver. The revolver is cheap and has many of the same traits as the rifle. But does any one say it's a good revovler? No.

LK

kx592
January 12, 2011, 08:46 PM
Rifle Traits:
Mosin Trigger? Fail
Mosin Ergos? Fail
Mosin Accuracy? Fail
Mosin Handling? Fail
Mosin Durability? A+

I would disagree with every answer except the last two, I think you got those right. The trigger on mine is nice and crisp and actually pretty light. The ergos are good enough for the average shooter, it certainly is not no r700 or Winchester 70 but for the times it makes it good enough. And lastly the accuracy, hit or miss but more times than not they are good enough to use for hunting, I can get 2" at 100 and see a friend shoot his at soup cans at 300yrds with irons and garbage surplus ammo.

Im thinking maybe you had a bad experience with one rifel and assumed they were all like that, your wrong. I will admit that there are lemons with these out there but just check the rifling and make sure the bolt is smooth and im sure you'll be happy.

SigP6Carry
January 12, 2011, 09:17 PM
In my experience:

Rifle Traits:
Mosin Trigger? B (with shimming and polishing), fail (with no work)
Mosin Ergos? A (took some training)
Mosin Accuracy? B (1.5 MOA, little improvement with trigger shims and bedding) (Edit: I should add: if you mail order one, you could get a barrel that's complete junk. I got lucky. If you buy it in store and it's got a good barrel, it's well worth it [around me, in store Mosins tend to cost about $130-150])
Mosin Handling? B (I've felt less recoil from rifles firing this size cartridge, but it works)
Mosin Action? C (after work), fail (before work)
Mosin Durability? A (I agree)
Mosin Firepower? A (I agree)

They may not be great rifles out of the box for most people, but for the cash, you can't ask for a better work horse rifle. If you get one with a good bore and crown (or if you're willing to counter-bore: a good bore and bad crown), you can transform it into a pretty nice rifle. They shoot well with a good barrel and there's tons of parts/accessories for them.

XD Gunner
January 12, 2011, 09:20 PM
It is a GOOD gun, but there are BETTER guns to hunt with. For 100 bucks, you can't beat them, but you can use them to beat things with, or shoot, or paddle, etc.

essohbe
January 12, 2011, 09:25 PM
Anyone here got one of the Finns? If I get another Mosin it will be a Finn.

CLC
January 12, 2011, 09:42 PM
Also I think you assume all MN 91/30's are the same when taking collectibility into account. I have around 8 or so right now and would pick a Mosin over any other milsurp rifle. when you start getting into all the little details on the years, armories and what not you can get some cool rifles. As for the argument that if they cost $300 no one would buy them, well I disagree. I got a N.E.W MN 91 with SA stamps for $280 and would pay $300 in a heartbeat for a Remington or some of the finns even an all matching Chinese M44. People dont care about the old 91/30 so i think that helps keep the price and interest down when there are people that will say the US rifle is best in every way.

SigP6Carry
January 12, 2011, 10:12 PM
I'm with CLC. A Finn for around $300 is generally a good purchase. And a Remington M91 would be a great buy. I'd never pay more than $150 for an MN91/30. I'd probably pay around $200 for an M44 or M38, these days. But some of those older/odder/non-Russian models, I'd probably pay around $300 for if I had the cash.

Catfishman
January 12, 2011, 10:44 PM
A friend of mine has killed many deer with his. He put a cheap scope on it and added a bent bolt handle. I doubt he has $175 in the whole thing.

I think it's great that there is a reliable, reasonably accurate rifle available to people who can't or aren't willing to lay down the huge price of a new high-powered rifle.

I do agree that the safety stinks. I hunted with mine once just for the novelty of it and I just kept the bolt handle up instead of messing with the cumbersome safety.

Slopemeno
January 12, 2011, 10:53 PM
Must...buy...hex

kraigwy
January 12, 2011, 10:56 PM
Rifle Traits:
Mosin Trigger? Fail
Mosin Ergos? Fail
Mosin Accuracy? Fail
Mosin Handling? Fail
Mosin Action? Fail
Mosin Durability? A
Mosin Firepower? A

Like any other gun out there, for the most part is with the shooter. If one would take the time to learn to shoot the thing, all those "fails" go out the window.

The Mosin has been around a long time, and its still being used in Afgan and other countries. The reason it's still being used is because "fail" comments are totally bogus.

Like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it. The Mosin is a relatively simple rifle, used by educated and illiterate alike.

A bit long I agree, but that extra length comes in handy to dampen the movement when shooting off hand.

Accuracy is more then adequate. Granted there are some abused rifles out there with bad barrels, you'll find the same thing with any surplus rifles, including our Garand and M1 Carbine.

If one takes care in picking a good barrel, and learns to shoot the thing, it will do what it was intended to do. It also works quite well in CMP GSM Vintage Rifle Matches.

Find someone who will put on a CMP Vintage rifle clinic and learn to shoot the Mosin. I'll put one on for free if I can get enough people to justify holding it.

You'll be impressed with the Mosin.

SigP6Carry
January 12, 2011, 10:59 PM
Must...buy...hex
Hex is overrated, unless you're a collector. My round shoots as good, if not better, than any Hex owners I know... but then again, I only know a couple, personally.

Slopemeno
January 12, 2011, 11:38 PM
Um...one was too many, a hundred won't be enough.

raftman
January 13, 2011, 12:59 AM
Mosin Trigger? Fail
Mosin Ergos? Fail
Mosin Accuracy? Fail
Mosin Handling? Fail
Mosin Action? Fail
Mosin Durability? A
Mosin Firepower? A

This merely serves as proof of bias and nothing more.

rickyrick
January 14, 2011, 02:49 PM
You can fix the raccoon trap trigger I'm less than an hour unless you have the manual dexterity of a raccoon, then it'll take two hour

TX Hunter
January 14, 2011, 09:24 PM
Think about it, Cheap, Tuff as Nails, powerfull, fairly acurate, cheap ammo.
There is nothing to complain about.

Ervin
January 14, 2011, 09:34 PM
They're only good as beginner rifles. Most of us went through the Mosin phase and moved on to something more serious like a K98 or M1.
I find it completly laughable when people bring Mosins and fire them for score next to Garands. Its the giveaway of a confident beginner at most.

Worst of all, with its V notch sights it can never hope to measure up to the 200yd (let alone 300yd) match targets. You'll be lucky to simply hit the black regardless of your own skill. Your skill in aiming (sight picture and all that crap) is the smallest variable with this rifle.

Ignition Override
January 15, 2011, 09:20 PM
Let's exclude the Finnish Mosins, and Hungarian or Polish 44s.
How popular would typical Russian MN 91/30s, 44s, 38s, 91/59s be if there were no surplus ammo widely available at about .20/rd.?

If all of the x54R ammo were to cost what newer .308 costs, how much would the popularity decrease?

This question might apply to common Yugo Mausers with 8mm surplus at about .25/rd.

Bamashooter
January 15, 2011, 09:52 PM
The price of the surplus ammo isnt a big issue for me. I would shoot the mosin regardless of the price becouse I really like to shoot mosin's. Of course it doesnt hurt. :)

Gunplummer
January 15, 2011, 10:54 PM
I shot Russian rifles and handguns before most of you guys were born. The ammo was pricey and the rifles and pistols were all over the place, but for some reason hardly anybody wanted to buy them. They were so cheap a box of ammo cost more than the rifle usually did. I went through the rebarrel stage (30-40K) and even a wildcat 8x54 like the Finns do. I saw reworks to 30.06 at auctions and yard sales. The one thing you did not see was cut down and lightened Russians with scopes. Mausers, .303Brits, Arasakas, '03 Springfields, and even 30-40 Fenceposts were cut down and stripped to hunt with. The Russian battle rifle is just that, a battle rifle of crude design. A few years ago the SKS was everybody's darling, but now that the cheap ammo is drying up I don't see a lot about it on the forums anymore. The American shooter has spoken, "Cheap is good".