PDA

View Full Version : Disturbing posts!


Ideal Tool
January 6, 2011, 11:07 PM
Hello guys, Hey, I am all for doing-it yourself type work, especially on modern type guns...However...for goodness sake guys..and the sake of future collectors..Please don't try out your new-found gunsmithing skills with a dremil tool..(the new bridgeport ?) , a cape chisel, or a mig welder on an honest to good antique Winchester or double shotgun! I knew an old Austrian gunsmith who served his apprentiship at Ferlach before WW1. His parents "sold" him to the company at 10...served apprentiship until graduation at 21! Told me for first few years, all he was allowed to do was clean & oil machines, & empty out coal forges. Then and only then was he allowed to learn about filing...and I don't mean knocking a burr off a part! But first he had to make his files!...Yes thats right..in the forge & using chisel & anvil & hardening! These guys could use a hammer & chisel to make cuts that would be impossible to do on a modern mill. As their final project..and this must pass inspection before they were issued journeymans card, they were given a choice of making either a dbl. rifle or dbl. shotgun. He chose the double rifle. He was given a large rough block of steel, longer billets for the barrels & could only use hammer, chisels & files. I have over 35 years as a Tool & Die maker, and I wouldn,t want that sort of project! I can only cringe as I think what his old Austrian master would do if he found a student using a dremil tool (if they had them back then) any where near a firearm.

rjrivero
January 6, 2011, 11:11 PM
The debate is one of my favorites. I bet that "artisan" you speak of would puke a bit in his mouth if he knew the top selling handguns were made of polymer too!

Is a gun ART or is it a TOOL. The great debate continues.......

JohnKSa
January 7, 2011, 12:03 AM
Whether it is art or tool, it still needs to be treated with respect if it is to perform its intended function.

Power tools have their place, and the use of hand tools is no insurance against damaged firearms, but it's certainly a lot easier and quicker to mess up a firearm with a power tool than a hand tool.

Sometimes you NEED to go slowly in order to have a chance of getting it right.

mapsjanhere
January 7, 2011, 10:05 AM
I don't know, my mill tells me how much I'm taking off in 1/1000. I have real trouble being that precise with a hand tool.

HiBC
January 7, 2011, 10:40 AM
I do not own a dremel.I do have a couple of air tools.Better bearings and higher speeds.I seldom use them on a firearm.
A hand held stone used with restraint is more my style.
It may be true an ameteur smith leaves a certain wake during the learning curve.
But Bubba is nothing compared to the governmental round up and destroy programs.
I'm thinking England,Australia,etc.
At least ,in time,the home gunsmith gains skills and gets better.

jimbob86
January 7, 2011, 10:44 AM
But Bubba is nothing compared to the governmental round up and destroy programs.
I'm thinking England,Australia,etc.
At least ,in time,the home gunsmith gains skills and gets better.


...... but sadly, so do the gun grabbers.

James K
January 7, 2011, 03:35 PM
Hi, Ideal Tool,

I agree to a point, but I doubt you would want to do your job using only hand tools. A Dremel tool is like any other tool; it can be only as good or as bad as the person using it. If I decide to hack up a Paterson Colt, it makes little difference whether I use a Dremel or a hammer and chisel. The problem is not the tool, it is lack or knowledge and skill on my part.

Yes, an unskilled user can mess things up with a Dremel tool, or a file, or a screwdriver, or a milling machine, or a drill press, or a bench grinder, etc. But I use a Dremel a lot simply because it saves a lot of time and labor. Do I mess things up with it? I won't lie, I have. But that is what learning to use your tools is all about.

I have to admire the persistence of those old time apprentices who had to file a perfect one inch cube or make a gun with nothing but a file, but that kind of thing seems to me to have more to do with teaching subservience to the master than teaching gunmaking skills, and had a lot to do with the European class system. American gun makers, not supported by a super wealthy class, had no problem adopting the latest in tooling and manufacturing techniques.

Jim

lashlaroe
January 7, 2011, 03:39 PM
Back on topic, I also worked with some old-school trained machinists who would rail about how us 'young people" didn't know enough because we hadn't been trained the hard way. I don't necessarily disagree with that, but changing times and available tools bring about need for changing skill sets. I also know a CNC programmer who could (and has been) called an artist, in his own right.

That having been said, I believe that the OP's post was meant to raise the point that there are people who will read a bit about gunsmithing or ask a few questions and then will forge ahead (pun intended) and use hobby tools to ruin or otherwise mar a fine firearm. That type of person always existed and will continue to do damage far into the future, there doesn't seem to be a way to fix stupid. At least not that I've heard of anyway.

However, I don't think that all those that want to truly learn and apply parts of the trade should be lumped into the catagory of half-fast moron. Yes Virginia, it does sometimes take mistakes to learn how to be better. Some would say it always takes mistakes to make one truly better.

This doesn't make it any easier to take when one sees the results of a ruinous decision by an unskilled amateur that ended with the massacre of a once fine weapon.

EDIT: I was writing my post whilst Jim was posting, so didn't catch his comments in mine. I agree with you, Jim.

Ideal Tool
January 7, 2011, 05:52 PM
Hello, guys. I guess I came off a bit harsher than I intended in my original post. The point I was trying to make is, if your not sure about something ask an expert. I must agree with mapsjanhere...I too prefer working on an accurate machine tool where possible. I will be the first to admit, I don't know everything...far from it! I am still learning..and I am not ashamed to admit sending most work out to experts who are better equiped than I, with more experiance and time. I have nothing against the little dremil...if used right. I have seen an awfully good gun smith use one to open & rough a barrel channel prior to glass bedding. Speaking of that tool...I have had this idea in the back of my mind for some time now..I know they make a little stand that turns it into a drill press..but it's kind of toy-like. What we need is a sturdy stand like a heavy drill press or discarded machine-tool casting with flat surface & spindle to clamp tool into. A compound milling table like ENCO or probably harbor-freight sells would allow precise movements. I don't know how much clamp pressure tool could take..perhaps a moulded form over tool to spread out pressure. Of course you could just buy a small mill/drill type tool. But I was looking to scrounge on the cheap! Anyone try this? Best of luck guys!

Buschwick
January 7, 2011, 08:30 PM
I've never modified a firearm in my life before this...

This started as a hacksaw cut and ended with a cordless drill to crown...
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y120/Buschwick/Rimfirecentral/hacksawsmall.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y120/Buschwick/Rimfirecentral/Crown2small.jpg

I also dremeled the bolt handle and much of the stock with the same care.

There are plenty of people that are absolutely competent with tools at a workbench. If you have the ability to do something, why not?

Guys at the range are dumbfounded when I tell them my $180 MOA .22 has a homemade crown.

JohnKSa
January 7, 2011, 09:08 PM
I don't know, my mill tells me how much I'm taking off in 1/1000.Yeah, that's what we're talking about here. People using high-precision machining tools. Dunno where I got the idea we were discussing handheld power tools like dremels... ;)There are plenty of people that are absolutely competent with tools at a workbench.Sure there are, that's not so much the issue as it is people finding out their level of competence by screwing up a valuable firearm with a dremel--i.e. "trying out your new-found gunsmithing skills with a dremil tool..(the new bridgeport ?) , a cape chisel, or a mig welder on an honest to good antique Winchester or double shotgun!"

I think that the meaning of the OP is clear. It's not to denigrate ANY and ALL use of power tools, it's to encourage people to use reasonable caution when dealing with valuable firearms and that means not diving in with a dremel unless you know you have the skill to pull it off.I have to admire the persistence of those old time apprentices who had to file a perfect one inch cube or make a gun with nothing but a file, but that kind of thing seems to me to have more to do with teaching subservience to the master than teaching gunmaking skills, and had a lot to do with the European class system.It teaches patience and helps a person develop basic skills.

People these days want to run but say it's a waste of time to learn to walk.Do I mess things up with it? I won't lie, I have. But that is what learning to use your tools is all about. Messing things up is not what learning to use tools is all about. You CAN learn to use tools by messing things up, but that's not the best approach. The best approach is to learn to use tools by doing things right.

It's possible to learn by screwing up but it's better to learn how not to screw up by developing basic skills before grabbing a dremel or something similar because it's taking "too long" or is going to take "too long".Guys at the range are dumbfounded when I tell them my $180 MOA .22 has a homemade crown. Here's a 100 yard group shot some years back with a gun I crowned by hand.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4173&d=1023754790

Dr. Strangelove
January 7, 2011, 09:28 PM
Hello guys, Hey, I am all for doing-it yourself type work, especially on modern type guns...However...for goodness sake guys..and the sake of future collectors..Please don't try out your new-found gunsmithing skills with a dremil tool..(the new bridgeport ?) , a cape chisel, or a mig welder on an honest to good antique Winchester or double shotgun!

I'm fixin' to "bubba" a NIB Winchester 1897 if you guys don't "contribute" to save it... It's gonna be "called home", like Pat Robertson (or whatever that guy's name was)

Maybe MIG weld a bayonet on it, wire-wheel it with a Dremel™ so it looks stainless, etc.

Pm me for my PayPal address...:rolleyes:

Buschwick
January 7, 2011, 09:42 PM
lol wow. You actually trademarked "Dremel".

I mean Dremel™.:D

Dr. Strangelove
January 7, 2011, 09:57 PM
lol wow. You actually trademarked "Dremel".

I mean Dremel™.

:D

WeedWacker
January 9, 2011, 08:51 AM
I think that the meaning of the OP is clear. It's not to denigrate ANY and ALL use of power tools, it's to encourage people to use reasonable caution when dealing with valuable firearms and that means not diving in with a dremel unless you know you have the skill to pull it off.

Hence, me not trying to drill out, thread, and weld on my new Saiga toy... :p

semi_problomatic
January 9, 2011, 05:28 PM
Wow. So what you're saying is... I can't do what I want with MY weapon that I paid MY money for? I guess my next question is just who in the h*** do you think you are, and why do I care? If I want to go spend good money on some crazy double shotty and cut it down to a street sweeper with my dremel.... I'm pretty sure I can. Who are you to highbrow me with my own weapons? And if I ruin it, so what, its my loss, not yours! What, are you collecting every fine weapon in the world? Didn't think so. But hey, thats just my opinion. Luckily its all that matters to me.

johnbt
January 9, 2011, 06:05 PM
A shotty?

Aw, that's so cute. :)

JohnKSa
January 9, 2011, 06:42 PM
I can't do what I want with MY weapon that I paid MY money for?You're going out of your way, WAY out of your way, to try to be offended.

Note the OP's wording, my emphasis added.Please don't try out your new-found gunsmithing skills...Note my wording, again, emphasis added.It's not to denigrate ANY and ALL use of power tools, it's to encourage people to use reasonable caution...Nobody's trying to tell you what you can and can't do with your own firearms, think of it as friendly advice. You can take it or leave it. Getting worked up to the point of exercising the language filter is completely out of proportion of the intent of the thread.

James K
January 9, 2011, 10:28 PM
A hamhand can screw up and remove just a little bit too much metal with a milling machine as with a Dremel or a stone. I think I know what the OP is saying and I agree to a point, but some people go insane at even the word "Dremel". One poster said he didn't even want to be in the same room with anyone who owned one. Maybe there is now going to be a "Dremel Control" movement? Police permit to own one? A Federal Dremel Dealers' License? The Dremel Control Act of 2011? The possibilites are limitless.

As to making mistakes while learning to use tools, I think quite a few people have done that, with almost any tool that can be named. I would like to be JohnKSa who has never made a mistake, but alas, I am a mere human.

Jim

bassfishindoc
January 9, 2011, 10:45 PM
Posts like this always make me laugh. People getting all righteous and trying to tell others what to do with their own property. Last I checked I live in America and if I want to go out and purchase a brand new $100,000 H&H or first run Colt 1911 Army and whip out my Dremel to practice my gunsmithing on it, by God I will! I'm not saying I would ever do that, I have a bit more sense, but it gets so annoying people trying to tell others what to do, it's not yours! You have ABSOLUTELY NO SAY about what the owner does with it. If you are so concerned about it offer to buy it off them or get your own and do with it what you will. I already have the government trying to tell me how to live my life according to their point of view, I don't need others trying to tell me what I can and can't do with my own property. Sorry about the rant but sometimes it feels good just to get it out :D.

edit: I see someone else got to this before me haha. My intention is not to ruffle feathers I just like a good rant every now and again, plus I think I make a good point :cool:

JohnKSa
January 9, 2011, 11:30 PM
I would like to be JohnKSa who has never made a mistake, but alas, I am a mere human.Although I don't claim to be a "mere human", I can assure you that I've made lots of mistakes. :D

I always hope I can help others to avoid making the same ones I have. Not everyone HAS to learn from experience.People getting all righteous and trying to tell others what to do with their own property.I believe if you reread the thread, no one is telling anyone what to do, there have been some good suggestions made and some good advice given, however.

Bailey Boat
January 10, 2011, 07:20 AM
If it weren't for the Dremel folks I wouldn't be able to buy some of those "it won't work now for some reason" guns at unreal low prices!!!!! Dremels rule FOREVER!!!!!!!

jborushko
January 10, 2011, 08:15 AM
i dont know, i know a handfull of gunsmiths that have a Dremel at their bench...

anyway, i way please keep hacking away at your own guns without the knowledge, then if you jack it up bring it on down to the smithy, we'll be happy to fix it for you! hurray for job security!

johnbt
January 10, 2011, 10:13 AM
"Last I checked I live in America and if I want to go out and purchase a brand new $100,000 H&H or first run Colt 1911 Army and whip out my Dremel to practice my gunsmithing on it, by God I will!"

Please be sure to come back and tell us about it after you complete the job. I can't wait, it'll be so much fun. You haven't seen a rant yet that'll compare to what you'll hear then. Hot dang. I'm starting to laugh at you already.

James K
January 10, 2011, 10:55 AM
I was once working on something (I now forget what) with a Dremel tool and a friend who was watching remarked that "you use that Dremel like an artist uses a brush." I pointed out that there was a difference - if I made a mistake, I couldn't just paint over it.

Jim

WeedWacker
January 10, 2011, 02:38 PM
first run Colt 1911 Army and whip out my Dremel to practice my gunsmithing on it, by God I will!

I cried a little inside thinking of the prospect of that :(... I don't really care about the H&H, it's a rich man's toy and rich people can do weird things with money. But that colt is a piece of history.

Bogie
January 10, 2011, 02:43 PM
Foredoms can take off a LOT more metal than a dremel... Can't put it back tho...

I'm now basically a 50 year old apprentice in a high-precision CNC machine shop...

Now, I spent 15 years doing computer graphics in a Fortune 100 outfit, got an A in Autocad class a while back (I had a "manager" who thought that since I drew stuff on computers that I needed to know CAD...), and the boss isn't letting me touch the CAD/CAM computer stuff yet.

I'm cleaning stuff. And my next task is to get a mothballed Shizouka AN-S mill going.

(but tonight I'm making more 20mm Vulcan bottle openers - yay!)

MW surveyor
January 15, 2011, 06:32 AM
Dremel "The gunsmith's friend":D

Double Naught Spy
January 15, 2011, 10:32 AM
and the sake of future collectors..Please don't try out ...

Why should I care one iota about the sake of future collectors? I am not buying the gun for them. If my concern was collectability, then I would buy a gun and never shoot it.

Just about every gun I own has some sort of personal custom modification. Some are better than others, but all are to suit the gun to better meet my intent and needs.

triggerman770
January 15, 2011, 12:58 PM
well, every gun that's bought is not and will not be acollector's item. I understand the OP's anquish at seeing a nice gun hacked up, but I encourage it..go for it. Then I will have more business than I can handle.

jaguarxk120
January 15, 2011, 04:38 PM
Bubba does not need a Dremel tool to work on a firearm, just ill fitting screwdrivers from Home Depot or Lowes will work for him just fine.

Bought a nice Ithaca pump -- had to replace every screw on the reciever because of bubba.

Clark
January 22, 2011, 12:36 AM
When I bought the big lathe, I had to swear an oath that I would do no harm.

jeepstrapped
January 22, 2011, 01:27 AM
I like the OP's post if for nothing more than the reason that knowledge and skills are being lost with the advancement of technology. I am not making any value judgements, just noting that the world is diminished when these skills and knowledge are gone.

MCCALL911
January 22, 2011, 04:09 AM
OT maybe, but in the same vein.
Years ago, singer Bob Welch ("Sentimental Lady") and a friend were drunk. Friend convinced Bob to alter his Gibson ES-345 with a Dremel. (For those not familiar: If God owned a guitar, it would likely be the Gibson ES-345.) To say the least of it, Mr. Welch regretted that decision for many years.

This link from Bob Welch's website has the whole story:

http://www.bobwelch.com/DON'T%20DRINK%20AND%20DREMEL.htm