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TRguy
January 3, 2011, 01:55 PM
http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=5659&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social&************=KSGFacebookSocial010310

Looks like Kel-Tec is coming out with a new shotgun

http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/KSG_3357web.jpg

14+1 Bullpup, bottom eject,

Technosavant
January 3, 2011, 02:07 PM
Weird.

I'm eager to see how it actually does. I can't figure out if it's a breakthrough in the self defense shotgun world, or if it's an unholy abomination. The ability to have both slugs and shot loaded and switching between them at the flick of a switch is impressive.

oneounceload
January 3, 2011, 03:31 PM
It's the US-made version of this:
http://homemadedefense.blogspot.com/2009/10/weird-guns-part-4-neostad-dual-tube.html
whose importation was disallowed to the non-sporting nature of the gun

nefprotector
January 3, 2011, 07:19 PM
Very interesting.

egor20
January 3, 2011, 07:25 PM
Kel-Tec new shotgun coming

Waiting for the new "Action Movie" it will be in :rolleyes:

bigghoss
January 3, 2011, 07:44 PM
just because it's a bullpup with two mag tubes doesn't mean it's based off the neostead. the mag tubes on the neostead are over the barrel and the pump mechanism is reverse of the kel-tec and most shotguns.

Onward Allusion
January 3, 2011, 11:11 PM
I want one! That and the PMR-30. Just for the tacticool factor. Doesn't matter if it shoots! :D

scorpion_tyr
January 4, 2011, 12:56 AM
If that thing is real I'll probably be selling all of my Kel-Tecs... but I'll at least hold one first...

ausher
January 4, 2011, 01:13 AM
im defiantly gonna get one when it comes available and if i got the $$$. that be badass with a .50ae desert eagle mounted to the lower accessory rail instead of a front mounted grip:D

Falcon642
January 4, 2011, 02:21 AM
One of the knocks on using a shotgun for home defense is that shotguns are too long to be maneuvered through doorways. This Kel Tec has me intrigued because the distance from my shoulder to the tip of the barrel wouldn't be much longer than the distance from my shoulder to the tip of the barrel of my pistol when I am in a shooting stance.

The short length of this Kel Tec seems to make it an ideal home defense shotgun to me. I could use it, and my 5'7 wife could use it alot easier than my Ithaca 37.

PTK
January 4, 2011, 02:31 AM
Just when I thought the muzzle blast on the PMR and RFB were bad... that may be an 18" barrel, but it's close to your head. Real close. :eek:

Bill DeShivs
January 4, 2011, 02:42 AM
Got one on order......
Picked up my PMR 30 today!

maierar
January 4, 2011, 08:36 AM
I'm hoping it comes with screw-in chokes for sporting clays.

nefprotector
January 4, 2011, 01:51 PM
Im buying one if possible.

Mike Irwin
January 4, 2011, 02:13 PM
A friend and I have been talking about these.

We're thinking we're going to wait until there's at least some track record of how they work, but I am VERY interested in possibly picking one up.

essohbe
January 4, 2011, 02:36 PM
^ what he said.

Please, post feedback if anyone here ends up with one of these!

rantingredneck
January 4, 2011, 02:49 PM
just because it's a bullpup with two mag tubes doesn't mean it's based off the neostead. the mag tubes on the neostead are over the barrel and the pump mechanism is reverse of the kel-tec and most shotguns.


It borrows enough from the Neostead to say accurately that it's based on it.

2 mag tubes, switchable between the two, bullpup. Yeah. It's based on it.

I can see where they improved it. Fixed the backward pumpstroke. Looks as if it's loadable without removing the magazine tubes (That always seemed bassackward on the Neostead).

UniversalFrost
January 4, 2011, 03:03 PM
if they incorporated a recoil reducing system into it (like the knoxx comp stock) that would be a done deal for me.

bigghoss
January 4, 2011, 03:22 PM
It borrows enough from the Neostead to say accurately that it's based on it.

2 mag tubes, switchable between the two, bullpup. Yeah. It's based on it.

I can see where they improved it. Fixed the backward pumpstroke. Looks as if it's loadable without removing the magazine tubes (That always seemed bassackward on the Neostead).

by that reasoning the glock is based off the 1911 because it's recoil operated with a tilting barrel. there is a difference between copying a design and refining it and coming up with something then borrowing features from others that have gone before. now it may be that they copied the design but there is enough of a difference that until someone at KT comes out and says that they did so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

smee78
January 4, 2011, 03:27 PM
I like it, can't wait for a range report.

rantingredneck
January 4, 2011, 03:46 PM
by that reasoning the glock is based off the 1911 because it's recoil operated with a tilting barrel. there is a difference between copying a design and refining it and coming up with something then borrowing features from others that have gone before. now it may be that they copied the design but there is enough of a difference that until someone at KT comes out and says that they did so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.


Where did I use the word copy?

Yes, it's based on the Neostead. It is not a copy of the Neostead, obviously.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 4, 2011, 04:01 PM
Oh, no! Now in every What should I buy for the wife/gf thread - someone will mention this! Sorry Pax!

Looks like it could be fun - if it runs.

bigghoss
January 4, 2011, 04:09 PM
Where did I use the word copy?

Yes, it's based on the Neostead. It is not a copy of the Neostead, obviously.

you didn't but others on other boards have been. I'm just trying to point out that we don't know that they didn't start with a clean slate. did they say "lets build a shotgun. it might be neat if it was a bulpup" or was it "that neostead is neat lets do something like that."? for all we know they had the idea to make a bulpup shotgun with dual feed tubes without ever studying the neostead.

oneounceload
January 4, 2011, 04:16 PM
you didn't but others on other boards have been. I'm just trying to point out that we don't know that they didn't start with a clean slate. did they say "lets build a shotgun. it might be neat if it was a bulpup" or was it "that neostead is neat lets do something like that."? for all we know they had the idea to make a bulpup shotgun with dual feed tubes without ever studying the neostead.

Bit of a reach there, don't ya think?

You're saying they in no way looked at the Neostad, decided on some changes and produced this? Really???.......:rolleyes:

Just how many bullpup, twin mag shotguns that look like the Neostad are there in the world today?

And so what if they did.........their marketing folks have obviously felt there will be a demand for these, and since the original is not available, by making the changes they did, they avoid any copyright/patent lawsuits and will produce something the market will demand...........good for them

UniversalFrost
January 4, 2011, 04:25 PM
the actual pistolgrip frame on it is from the Sub-2k lineup they have, so it looks like they are just frankensteining this thing together from several different guns.


I like it!

bigghoss
January 4, 2011, 04:31 PM
You're saying they in no way looked at the Neostad, decided on some changes and produced this? Really???.......

no, I'm saying we don't know what their train of thought was. for all I know they started with a neostead and came up with this. or maybe nobody at KT has ever heard of a neostead. could be either one. somebody at some point had to come up with the original idea for others to base off of so who's to say people don't still do that to some extent?

DRT300
January 4, 2011, 04:35 PM
Very cool. Wonder if it will cycle properly with lighter loads?

rantingredneck
January 4, 2011, 05:03 PM
you didn't but others on other boards have been.

So you're putting other peoples words from other forums into my mouth and arguing with me over them? Have fun with that.....

Very cool. Wonder if it will cycle properly with lighter loads?

It should, it's a pump......

Bill DeShivs
January 4, 2011, 08:50 PM
Gosh, everybody copies Keltec, and no one thinks anything of it.
What would be wrong with Keltec taking a basic idea and improving on it?

bigghoss
January 4, 2011, 09:15 PM
So you're putting other peoples words from other forums into my mouth and arguing with me over them? Have fun with that.....

I have not once tried to do that. I have only been trying to support my original point, which was in response to someone else' post in the first place. and really if you go back and look again the worst thing I did was misuse "copying" when I should have said "basing on". I suppose the two aren't technically interchangeable.

kozak6
January 4, 2011, 09:20 PM
That's a neat looking shotgun. I wonder how much it is going to cost.

I also wonder about availability once it hits production.

I think a more accurate statement is that it's based on the RFB and inspired by the Neostead. Stating that it is based on the Neostead implies more of a connection than there really is. About all they have in common is the same basic concept and external appearance.

armoredman
January 4, 2011, 09:24 PM
I don't care if they based it off the 10mm caseless pulse rifles off the movie Aliens - I want one!:D

UniversalFrost
January 4, 2011, 10:02 PM
I'm with your armoredman.

and i wish the two ranting fools would take their arguement into PM's or emails and off this thread.

great looking shotty and on the short list for me.

I have owned several keltecs in teh past and wouldnt heistate to buy this shotty just for teh gee-whiz factor.

Falcon642
January 5, 2011, 02:16 AM
MSRP in the $800 range according to an update that just went up on Kel Tec's website.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/news/preview-kel-tec-shotgun-ksg

If MSRP is $800 maybe picking one up for $600 after all the hype dies down won't be too much wishful thinking:cool:

riggins_83
January 5, 2011, 02:20 AM
A friend and I have been talking about these.

We're thinking we're going to wait until there's at least some track record of how they work, but I am VERY interested in possibly picking one up.

+1 for that. I was going to do the same with the PMR-30 but they've been so hard to find around here I'm being forced anyway...

rantingredneck
January 5, 2011, 08:02 AM
and i wish the two ranting fools would take their arguement into PM's or emails and off this thread.



;)

Given that the muzzle and chamber are much closer to the shooter I would wager that muzzle jump on this shotgun will be markedly less than a comparable weight 18" traditional pump. Unless I've got the physics bassackward in my head. Which has happened before.......

What's the unloaded weight? anyone know?

Fully loaded it gains almost a pound :eek:

NightSleeper
January 5, 2011, 09:32 AM
That thing has dual magazines, side by side. You flip a switch to determine which mag (left or right) is feeding the chamber. It holds 14+1 total.

That blows me away. Why didn't I ever think of that??? :o

rantingredneck
January 5, 2011, 09:49 AM
Gosh, everybody copies Keltec, and no one thinks anything of it.
What would be wrong with Keltec taking a basic idea and improving on it?


Nothing at all Bill. Just like there's nothing wrong when someone takes a Keltec product and improves upon it.

I'm glad they fixed the bassackward pump stroke of the South African design. That seems like one of those things that could get someone killed due to reverting to muscle memory when prior training with a traditional pump kicks in.

Mike Irwin
January 5, 2011, 10:35 AM
"That thing has dual magazines, side by side. You flip a switch to determine which mag (left or right) is feeding the chamber. It holds 14+1 total."


My friend and I were talking about that particular feature, how you can load two different types of loads, say slugs and buckshot....

In fact, it's so neat that I've come up with a new game that you can play with home invaders...

It's called "Guess what's coming your way next".

zippy13
January 5, 2011, 10:49 AM
Fully loaded it gains almost a pound :eek:
Actually, with 14+1 it could be well over a pound, just in lead!

rantingredneck
January 5, 2011, 10:54 AM
True, I was just considering lead in my rough math in my head. Figuring 1 oz per shell, but it could be more lead in each and that doesn't account for hull/wad/powder.

rantingredneck
January 5, 2011, 10:56 AM
In fact, it's so near that I've come up with a new game that you can play with home invaders...

It's called "Guess what's coming your way next".
__________________


You'll feel like a gameshow host:

"Behind door number one we have a lovely charge of 00 buckshot"

"Behind door number two we have a 1oz. Brenneke KO slug"

"So, Mr. Badguy, would you prefer 9 .33 caliber holes or one .729 caliber hole?"

Technosavant
January 5, 2011, 11:06 AM
At $800 I'm likely to give it a miss; not that it doesn't look like a great HD weapon, but I don't know that it's going to add $800 worth of utility to my firearm portfolio. If you're starting from scratch that's one thing, but I already have an 870 and a Saiga 12.

Impressive design, I'm just kinda surprised that K-T is looking at that price range; their stuff is usually surprisingly low priced.

Mike Irwin
January 5, 2011, 12:35 PM
Where is the $800 price tag coming from?

Has Keltec said that's what it's going to be, or is that an estimation?

UniversalFrost
January 5, 2011, 01:32 PM
i seriously doubt it will be $800... maybe that is an MSRP, but in reality when shops like buds, cheaper than dirt, etc. get hold of them it will be in the 500 range (that is considering the $800 msrp)... personally i would wager a guess of the mid $450 range based upon the fact that it utilizes portions of their existing rifles and carbines and if they use a standard barrel and mag tubes from say a mossy or remington and just modify them the cost can be kept down.

GoOfY-FoOt
January 5, 2011, 01:45 PM
NightSleeper wrote: That blows me away.

That's too funny...

And, Yes...$800 sounds a bit steep for a K-T.
Even the price-gougers with the rare PMR's were only getting $650, or thereabouts.

I'm glad I have a friend with an FFL....;)

beex215
January 5, 2011, 01:52 PM
800 is too much for me. ill spend 500 max ish

Technosavant
January 5, 2011, 03:16 PM
Where is the $800 price tag coming from?

Has Keltec said that's what it's going to be, or is that an estimation?

Falcon642 gave a link to K-T's website, where they say they're looking in the $800 range for pricing.

While I'm sure it will street for less, that's only if there's more supply than demand, and from the reactions I've seen across the internet, that won't be the case unless the price scares some folks off.

Kel-Tecs tend to be functional if a bit cheap/plasticy feeling (in my opinion), and $800 is a bit much for a pump gun if it has a weird feel to it (not the bullpup form factor, but I'm meaning the grip and the various surfaces of the thing). At $500 it's way more compelling, but much over $600, I have to take a step back and adopt a "wait and see" attitude.

Duckboat Brown
January 5, 2011, 05:40 PM
I emailed KT direct a couple days ago, and this is what I got in the mail when I got home from work today:


Hi Jeff,



The KSG won’t be available until late 2011. The MSRP has not been officially set, but we are looking at the $800.00 range.



Thanks

Mike G

Customer Service

Kel Tec CNC, INC.

321-631-0068

All things considered, there's no way in hell this gun will sell well at $800. That MSRP puts it into AR15 territory, and I'd much rather have an $800 AR than I would an $800 plastic shotgun.

Tanner777
January 5, 2011, 06:49 PM
go saiga 12ga 10rd or 12rd, its an overgrown ak, robust from what I read

Technosavant
January 5, 2011, 07:40 PM
go saiga 12ga 10rd or 12rd, its an overgrown ak, robust from what I read

I actually have one. It's fun to shoot, but quality is uneven, and as a semiauto, it just isn't usually going to be as reliable as a good pump gun. If push came to shove, I do believe I'd be grabbing my 870 Tactical, not my S12, even though they sit next to each other. The S12 isn't that easy to maneuver either.

The KSG looks like it will have more than enough mag capacity, will be very easy to maneuver, and as a pump gun (assuming they worked the bugs out), you should be able to run anything through it reliably, even ultralight loads.

Southern Rebel
January 6, 2011, 12:17 AM
I have no doubt that Kel-tec started with "a clean sheet of paper" to engineer this gun, based on the new definition of "clean sheet of paper" provided by Ruger. I may just wait for Ruger to get out their clean sheet of paper (ie add a more sophisticated blueing job and add $50 to the price) and produce their refined product. :rolleyes:

psycho nut
January 6, 2011, 05:40 PM
I love it. Being left handed, things that are 'ambidextrous' always peak my curiosity. If I ever find one I'd get it. Same with their .308 too.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 6, 2011, 07:28 PM
$800 - way too much. I got my tacky 1300 for $239 a few years ago. If you want to get the SD market - you have to come down.

Delaware_Dan
January 7, 2011, 01:06 PM
I'm on the fence about this one. I have handled almost every Kel-Tec made (and I own a Sub 2000) and I'm not sure I would trust a Kel-Tec product to fire heavy 12 gauge loads without falling apart. It looks very interesting though. We will see...

NightSleeper
January 7, 2011, 01:57 PM
I normally don't go for 'tech-cool' but I'll probably get one, depending on the price. The design blows me away ... ok, that pun was deliberate this time.

Mike Irwin
January 7, 2011, 02:22 PM
I agree $800 is going to put me out of the market.

I don't really care about all the tactical mounting points on the thing, they'll never be used.

I'm VERY interested in the feeding system, the magazine capacity, and the fact that it's a bullpup.

PT-92
January 7, 2011, 07:58 PM
I love Kel-Tec as my main CCW is a P-11 and I also have two Sub-2000's. All great values for the dollar and that is the main reason I buy anything as money is real tight 'nowadays'.

So personally speaking, I would only purchase the KT Shotgun if it were in the $500 ballpark and it would be mostly for collection/novelty purposes more than anything else as my Saiga 12 and Remington 1187 Police shotguns are my go-to SHTF weapons.

-Cheers

kristop64089
January 7, 2011, 08:35 PM
I like it for it's uniqueness, and portable size (relatively speaking). I'll probably get one, for S-N-G's. I just hope it's more durable than my other Kel-Tecs

Cruncher Block
January 8, 2011, 12:13 AM
Wow, not to go too offtopic but the discussion thread on the linked cheaperthandirt site is :eek::confused::eek:

And the suggestion to load one side with buck and the other with less-lethal strikes me as rather ill-advised.

Rampant_Colt
January 8, 2011, 12:34 AM
Looks like the perfect gun for the video game, AirSoft, paintball and mall-ninja clique.. :barf:

Technosavant
January 8, 2011, 12:36 PM
And the suggestion to load one side with buck and the other with less-lethal strikes me as rather ill-advised.

That's just a stupid idea. Less lethal rounds for regular folks are ill advised at the best of times, even with a shotgun dedicated to them and readily identifiable (those bright orange furniture sets exist for this reason), but mixing them in the same gun is a way to get dead or in jail. If you're justified in using a firearm at all, you're justified in using real loads.

I can understand keeping slugs and buckshot loaded, but both of those are fully lethal loads- if you pick the wrong one, the only difference is the size and number of holes, not somebody going to the morgue.

pelo801
January 9, 2011, 01:08 AM
"Guess what's coming your way next".
i don't care what anyone says, i just can't wait to play this game. i want one. but $800 will be way too much. i would say up to $500, and that would still be pushing it.
and on a small side note, to defend the saiga. i have the .410 version, and have never had a reliability issue. never.

jfruser
January 10, 2011, 04:17 PM
* Shortest length possible without NFA taxes & paperwork.
* 14 round capacity.
* Ambi operation.

The only "feature" I might not like is the inability to point it like a regular shotgun, given pistol grip and super short sight radius due to bullpup config.

I think a quality reflex sight would cure that, though.

It is 4+" shorter than my Cop-(folding) stocked Rem 870 with 18" bbl...when my 870 is folded!

If it is reliable, this would be a terrific HD or truck/trunk gun.

Falcon642
January 13, 2011, 09:21 AM
Its being reported at www.slickguns.com and at the Kel Tec forums that the MSRP will be $880.

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1294097299

http://slickguns.com/product/kel-tec-unveils-new-ksg-dual-tube-pump-shotgun-0

Too rich for my blood.

egor20
January 13, 2011, 09:34 AM
$880.00!!!!

As Kramer said on Seinfeld "I'm Out"


Hope you're listening Kel-Tec

UniversalFrost
January 13, 2011, 10:42 AM
MSRP and actual on the shelf prices are 2 different things.

buds and others will be listing these for much less.

Technosavant
January 13, 2011, 11:02 AM
MSRP and street are different, but $880 is a rather rich price for a pump, even for starters. It is indeed different, it indeed has some unique features, but it's going to need to be all kinds of awesome at that price.

You don't see heavy discounting unless it just doesn't sell- this thing won't be going for $500. I'd be surprised if it sells for any less than $700, more likely $750. That's a lot for an unproven design, especially when the competition (shotguns like the Mossberg 590 or Remington 870 Tactical or Police models) can be easily had for way less.

publius
January 13, 2011, 01:23 PM
Call me crazy, but I could see it being useful in trailing a deer that has been hit. I often use a shotgun tracking in case I jump the crippled deer at close range. Having the option of a slug with just the switch of a lever would be good for farther shots. This is assuming someone gave me one of these things. I don't see it's possible usefulness justify buying one.

On second thought, this is a silly idea, I was just looking for a practical use for the thing.:p

KevininPa
January 13, 2011, 07:13 PM
.........too rich for my blood.

Dave McC
January 13, 2011, 07:52 PM
Full Disclosure......

I may have had some input on this. I was contacted maybe 12 years ago by someone wanting to build a pure D fighting shotgun. What I suggested looked LOTS like this.

Of course, they could have done this totally independently. Great minds move in similar paths.[/sarcasm]....

A couple things.....

14 rounds of 12 gauge ammo will weigh a bit over 3 lbs. While this K gun is short, it will not be a featherweight.

Every bullpup I've shot(Model 10B, Mossberg 500,Steyr AUG, and that Bushmaster) had an egregious trigger. Unless Keltec has done its homework, all the neat features of this will come to naught.

The front sight needs to be at the muzzle to maximize that short sight radius.

As for choke tubes, a set that includes one built into a suppressor makes a lot of sense.

I'd like to check one out, give it the same kind of T&E I gave that Saiga a year back on THR.

But at the price of at least TWO 870s and a pallet of 00, it will have to wait.....

OcelotZ3
January 14, 2011, 01:02 AM
I just bought a brand-new 870 for $230 at Christmas, so the price is closer to 3 of those. :eek:

nefprotector
January 14, 2011, 06:27 PM
But hardly anybody actually charges MSRP. Most shops atleast knock of about $50-$100. maybe more.

hogdogs
January 14, 2011, 06:36 PM
Knock off 20% (more than gracious) and it still comes in at about $704 or so...

Too rich for my redneck utilitarian tastes... Neato cool gizmo but I would rather buy a nice .30-06 for 'yote huntin'...

Brent

Technosavant
January 14, 2011, 09:02 PM
Knock off 20% (more than gracious) and it still comes in at about $704 or so...

Exactly. While not many sell at MSRP, I'd *really* like to know which shop sells the new and innovative guns at a 50% discount. Just. Doesn't. Happen.

At most you'll be seeing a 20% price break, more likely 10% at first. You're still at $700-800 from a $880 MSRP, and that's still no small amount of money.

oneounceload
January 14, 2011, 09:51 PM
I recently spent $1400 for a used shotgun for my wife.........IF this gun REALLY interested me, then 800+/- is a reasonable price - especially if you really are depending on it to save your life........

It seems that most folks equate Keltec with cheap prices, so now everyone is whining about the pricing. Company needs to make money, I hope he sells millions of them at his price

headbangerJD
January 17, 2011, 09:20 PM
As soon as my local gun store opens, I'll be buying one the day they come out :)

911JB
January 18, 2011, 06:25 AM
While the $800.00 price tag seams a tad high I will probably go ahead and bite the bullet and pay it. Not just to be the first one on the block with it either. I feel that after the BAN wagon gets their sights set on this it very well may go the way of the street sweeper and the sidewinder conversion.

EVERLAST
January 18, 2011, 04:27 PM
How do you like that PMR 30???
I WANT one too...

Bill DeShivs
January 18, 2011, 04:48 PM
I'm waiting for a nice day to go shoot it. Weather sucks, and the older I get, the more I hate cold!

NightSleeper
January 20, 2011, 04:20 PM
Weather sucks, and the older I get, the more I hate cold!

Tell me about it ....

Creek Henry
January 22, 2011, 01:39 PM
Get one before they are banned or outlawed by reactionary gun-grabbers!

Technosavant
January 22, 2011, 03:54 PM
Get one before they are banned or outlawed by reactionary gun-grabbers!

It's a little early for that silliness.

Show me ONE pump shotgun (and no, the USAS 12 with its ability to be semi or pump doesn't count... I mean domestic production manual action shotgun of 18" barrel length or greater and no less than 26" overall length) that's been banned simply due to magazine capacity.

Reports from SHOT show indicate some trigger reset issues; I'd recommend holding off until this is cleared up and test guns start showing up for reviews.

zip22
January 22, 2011, 11:28 PM
Get one before they are banned or outlawed by reactionary gun-grabbers!

was that tongue in cheek or are you suggesting being pre-reactionary?

Creek Henry
January 23, 2011, 10:01 AM
There are currently countless gun-grabbers and politicians trying to ram through reactionary laws due to the recent tragedy in AZ.

The good news is that this didn't happen during the lame-duck Democratic ruled congressional sessions in December so most of the rabid gun laws will not pass... but with Biden as VP, you just never know what will be outlawed next!

BTW, as a hunter I have no need for this or any other riot gun... but I still want one!

Technosavant
January 23, 2011, 04:15 PM
There are currently countless gun-grabbers and politicians trying to ram through reactionary laws due to the recent tragedy in AZ.

Most of them are the same bills introduced year after year by the same people. They never get anywhere. Even of those with more support than a couple wingnuts, they don't have anything to do with manual action firearms.

Chill out and quit hitting the panic button.

Creek Henry
January 23, 2011, 06:56 PM
Vigilance is the price of freedom :)