View Full Version : Reloaders... INFO needed...
December 23, 2010, 08:59 AM
I have a situation I am working with and need some theory and physics help. It regards using LTL loads (Less than Lead) wild animal retraining to increase their life span as contact with humans is increasing...
December 23, 2010, 10:09 AM
What I am after is some info about how much a powder charge will need to be reduced if the payload is greatly reduced in weight but not volume.
To dump the 7 1/2 out of a promo load and replace with rubber balls, air soft balls or even balls made from a hot glue gun.
Need to retrain some black bears that have no hunting pressure... EVER...
December 23, 2010, 12:11 PM
Come now Brent, how many times have you heard the gray beard reloaders tell the newbies that, with shot shells, they need to follow the published recipes without substitutions? Now, you're thinking of making your own bear bothering balls by altering existing loads that you don't have a clue about. Sorry, my advice is to forget about modifying your promo loads and go with some proven loads like Sellier & Bellot's Rubber Buckshot, or LE bean bags. Yeah, I know, they are a lot more money than the promo loads. Perhaps there is some local conservation or LE agency that might be able to help.
December 23, 2010, 01:26 PM
well, lets think about this a minute .... Zippy is right of course ....
but, a few years ago - we played a joke on a buddy ....took some of his re-loads apart / and replaced the lead shot with "confetti" and re-crimped the shells .....and then mixed them into his boxes when he wasn't looking ....( and had some laughs) .... Now kids, don't do this at home !! ...but, I think they were safe .../ but at the same time, we didn't monkey around with the powder drops - just the payload...
I think you can do the same thing ....by playing around with the payload - not the powder. You need to weigh the shot ( say its one ounce ) and put whatever you want in there ...( don't disrupt the wad seating either ) - and make sure whatever you put in doesn't exceed the original weight of the payload - one ounce or whatever / and it can still be crimped properly ....
But in my experience, Black Bears are slow learners ....and the noise will scare them away for awhile / but you need to remove the source of their visit ( garbage cans, pet food, etc ) or they will just keep coming back. A resonably aggressive - outside dog - kept them away when I lived out in the country as a kid ( and the added option, that griding and mixing bear meat with Venison / makes pretty tasty sausage patties as well ) ....if you can legally hunt them year round...
But shooting at them / when you may only be around for 3 of 10 visits ...isn't going to work ...regardless of what kind of shells you use. I'm also not sure the state Fish and Game is going to be thrilled with the idea either. I'm not even sure you can shoot them with "paint balls" and get away with it ...especially in populated areas ....
December 23, 2010, 03:21 PM
I was talking to Zippy - on the side .....
He had a good cautionary visual ...about replacing shot in a shell with rubber bullets / or balls ..... what if those balls went down the barrel and stuck - like a drain stopper ....and instantly plugged that barrel .... :eek:
It could result in a catastrophic failure .....
Playing around with the payload on some shells like I did ---- dumping out the shot / replacing it with confetti as a joke on a buddy is one thing ....and we were shooting Over Unders - where every time it happened, we'd all quit laughing long enough to tell him to check the barrel .... ( and while the Bang - Poof ...was pretty funny ) ....and I do think it was safe - and boys will be boys ...and all that .... / but my point is, we were just messing with the payload / not the powder or the seated wad on those shells. We would not have done that - if our buddy was shooting a semi-auto or a pump gun ....where there was even a slight chance he could trigger a 2nd shell / with any chance the barrel was obstructed with some confetti ! ! !
What HogDogs is asking / is about messing with powder in a factory shell ... and its a poor idea. You don't know what the powder is / the chance of you getting a commercial shell open without tearing up the hull / getting the wad out without tearing anything up ...let alone getting the wad back in the hull and seated properly - in my experience, taking a few shells apart to reclaim reloading components - is a big No, about 99.9% of the time / and not advised even if it could be done sucessfully. Its just a bad idea at best....
December 23, 2010, 03:37 PM
Okay, so we will scrap the idea of reducing a powder charge...
My only thought about the analogy regarding a sink stopper is what about the factory built rubber buck shot loads? Why don't they stop up like a stopper?:o
December 23, 2010, 03:56 PM
Shooting a bear to annoy him....... careful there..... it's a bear......
December 23, 2010, 04:08 PM
jimbo, this now a main means of re-trainin' them to fear humans in grizzly country so I doubt it would too risky for a bunch of butt kickin' rednecks to do with little blackies...
Heck I have annoyed mrs.hogdogs far worse and survived it so a few rubber buck balls to their rump is nuttin'...
December 23, 2010, 05:20 PM
I understand Brent ...
I'm way more afraid of a mad woman // than a mad bear .... the bear can only kill and eat you / well maybe eat you - and then kill you .....but nothing compared to a mad woman ( just the fear alone ......of her next husband ending up with a nice gun collection .....) ....keeps me from irritating her too much ( and we wonder why they don't think we're funny ) .... :D
my hunch on the factory - rubber loads ....is they've tested what they know works ....vs somebody just guessing ... What makes them work may be partly the diameter per ball, the hardness of the rubber, the type of wad they use ....any number of things .... I've never taken one apart to see what's really in it. I'm not saying you can't buy less than lethal shells - and use those / just not something that has been "bubba" invented by your buddy ...( meaning no disrespect to him, my man ...) I'm sure he's a good man ... but if you got too many in the shell, or they were too soft - and they deformed as they were going down the pipe ....I just don't know if they'd stick or not ...
but if your buddy really want to do this ....why not just try noisy blanks first ...( and don't forget to carry a big stick, just in case you make them angry ) ...
December 23, 2010, 05:23 PM
or you could just buy a couple of Grizzlies ...and let them loose ....let them clean em out .... :D No, please don't ....( I was only kidding ...)...
December 23, 2010, 05:50 PM
BJP, They have tried bustin' promo loads off above their heads.. They run off and return for next scheduled run of the feeder.
December 23, 2010, 06:29 PM
What you need to do is to make one or more bear skin rugs. THAT always works.
December 23, 2010, 06:35 PM
If there was a season on them... I assure ya'll that they wouldn't be the brazen buggers they have become!;)
December 23, 2010, 06:51 PM
I'm out of ideas Brent .....sorry man ....
I see some for sale on the internet - for about $5 per shell... / buy a pack of 5 ....and then duplicate them as best you can ...with a reloader. I don't know where you would get the "rubber balls"...
How about rigging up some motion sensor lights ..../ with a noise maker attached .... I don't know .... ???
December 23, 2010, 07:12 PM
Maybe some standard Hi-Power ammo, a shovel and case of amnesia?
December 23, 2010, 07:31 PM
I like the amnesia angle more than the rubber payload. By using a LTL load you open yourself up to a harassing wildlife charge from a do-gooder with a dime.
December 23, 2010, 07:35 PM
There is always ...sausage ....
December 24, 2010, 01:10 AM
I will just add from my experience as a kid playing around years ago, if you try to substitute payloads in a shotshell, you need to get it crimped properly again, otherwise the primer will blow the propellant out without igniting it, making a mess of unburned powder, wads, and the substituted projectile in your barrel.
I used to pull bullets out of .22 LR cases, replace the powder with 4f black (the smokeless would not ignite reliably without the tension of bullet), then press a rubber 6mm BB of the type used in toys in the case The edges of the case would cut a little ring of rubber off the BB, sizing it to .22 caliber. It was good for short range bird control in the barn, without shooting holes in the roof. This might be an option for the bears. Just be sure to clean your barrel well, as black powder fouling is corrosive.
December 25, 2010, 02:40 AM
Need to speak with the conservation commision in your state to see if lthis is leagal.
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