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xMINORxTHREATx
December 20, 2010, 09:26 AM
When I first got my Mossberg for home defense, I kept Winchester SuperX 3 inch shell, 000 shot.

Since then I have read a lot of articles about over penetration in hand gun rounds, and pellets missing their target and hitting by standers, or penetrating walls and hitting bystanders, etc etc.

I was about to invest in the PDX1, when I thought about the over penetration issue.

I've tested birdshot rounds at close range against some home made ballistics gel, and was impressed, but then I added a leather jacket over the gel and decided to stay away from birdshot.

So what do you guys use? Any suggestions?
Any one make a low velocity slug?

4runnerman
December 20, 2010, 09:55 AM
45 ACP with a 300 gn Manstopper and 5.0 gn unique. Custom made by a friend of mine.:)

xMINORxTHREATx
December 20, 2010, 10:44 AM
That bullet looks sweet, but I meant for a shotgun.

Too bad they don't make that round in 9mm for my handgun.

spacecoast
December 20, 2010, 11:05 AM
Standard 2-3/4" 00 Buck. Here's 2 shots at 20 feet from my 12-gauge Wingmaster with a 18.5" barrel. Ignore the circled shots (different gun) -

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac115/spacecoast_guns/Targets/00buck20ft.jpg

Skadoosh
December 20, 2010, 11:10 AM
Any one make a low velocity slug?


Many makers make low-recoil shotgun rounds in slug and buckshot.

http://static3.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/dcf52121e57c42dc65f65486db5f138c/w/i/winchester-ranger-12ga-1oz-slug-2_1.jpg

pabuckslayer08
December 20, 2010, 08:45 PM
Those rangers are pretty sweet, I however do load birdshot in my defense guns. Even with a leather jacket inside the house they are toast. Even with a kevlar jacket they are in trouble. Only need for a ranger is outdoors and I wouldnt ever take a shot once the target leaves the house

zip22
December 20, 2010, 08:50 PM
I however do load birdshot in my defense guns. Even with a leather jacket inside the house they are toast. Even with a kevlar jacket they are in trouble.

do you have any proof of this? birdshot is always rejected for defense as it does not have the penetration required.

two weeks ago, this intruder was shot 4 times.

"Police think the suspect was not more seriously injured because he was wearing heavy clothing that stopped some of the birdshot."
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2010/12/mecosta_county_homeowner_fires.html

I think when I get a shotgun, I'll go with #1 buckshot
http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm

pabuckslayer08
December 20, 2010, 09:03 PM
I know im not standing at 15 yards looking down my barrel at it in a leather coat.

zip22
December 20, 2010, 09:04 PM
what?

pabuckslayer08
December 20, 2010, 09:07 PM
Sorry Zip, I re read that and wow, bad grammer. I meant that im not going to try it on myself shooting birdshot. No I dont have any type of proof or tests beside shooting it outdoors at cans, bottles, etc. Even shot a TV once and it definently was one angry TV

zip22
December 20, 2010, 09:15 PM
I wouldn't want to be shot at with a paintball gun, but that doesn't mean I would trust it as a defensive weapon. Why go with much weaker birdshot when there are much better - proven - options?

birdshot was enough to make the drunk guy in the article above leave, but he was probably more scared by the loud noise than the physical injury. if this guy's face can stop birdshot without serious injury, I doubt it would get through kevlar
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/cheney-shooting-victim-sorry/2006/02/18/1140151839728.html

pabuckslayer08
December 20, 2010, 09:30 PM
Your most definently correct, but I guess its just personal preference. No doubt that ranger would rip the target up and would be a A+ round. I guess I just never really thought I would ever need more power than birdshot from a 16ga, also I guarentee it wouldnt go through Kevlar but I was meaning it will spread out better and enter in different areas of the body of the target did have kevlar on

Alden
December 20, 2010, 09:39 PM
A LEO buddy recommended 2&3/4 inch #4 buckshot, so that is what mine is loaded with.

Lots of pellets, more punch than birdshot, less than 00 buck. Just right.

Irish B
December 20, 2010, 09:57 PM
#1 Buck

Yung.gunr
December 20, 2010, 10:20 PM
We have heard a lot of recommendations on what to keep in your home defense shotgun but I think we are all assuming it's a 12ga. Please clarify the gauge and barrel length. I know on the Winchester site they give some of the ballistics for their ammo but we don't know your specifics to make an informed suggestion.

Thanks....

jmortimer
December 20, 2010, 11:39 PM
Pictures are worth a thousand words. All testing that I have seen (Many many tests) clearly show that # 4 Buckshot is the minimum and that # 1 is even better and OO is better and so on - here are pictures/results in ballistic gelatin from Robert Farargo "Shotgun Penetration With Various Rounds" dated 2-27-2010 from the Truth About Guns site. Hopefully, we will someday stop hearing anyone recommend "birdshot" as it is really bad advice. http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/

zippy13
December 21, 2010, 01:28 AM
xMINORxTHREATx,

4runnerman may be on the right track -- we don't know. I appreciate your dilemma. Each of us has to make our HD gun/ammo decision based upon our own environment, shooting ability and defensive scenario/plan. What works for me probably won't for you. Obviously, it doesn't make sense to barricade yourself in a safe room if you have children sleeping in another part of your house. I'm in a masonry home in a rural area and not concerned with over-penetration; but, you may in a dense urban setting with neighbors on the other side of stud-framed party walls.

Don't trust your HD decisions to forum members who don't have a clue about your specific requirements and environment. Typically, these open ended threads on "what ammo for HD" evolve into two camps: Buckshot and birdshot with a smattering of slugs and duplex loads thrown in for variety. After you've established your HD criteria, then it's time to ask specific questions.

Good luck -- there are no easy answers.

xMINORxTHREATx
December 21, 2010, 08:58 AM
Zippy, just to clarify.

Right now I live in a standard stud framed house with plaster walls upstairs, and dry wall down stairs. There are three adults and two kids, 7 & 9 years old.

I'm using a 12guage Mossberg, 20'' barrel, 8 shot tube.

I'm about to move and wanna leave the shotgun here with my mother until I can get her a pistol. There is a Remington 11-87 slug gun thats here also, but the pump action is more grab and go for her than the 11-87 is.


I'm looking for something that won't over penetrate, and if she misses, won't destroy the house.

I have seen first hand that birdshot won't do jack to a leather jacket. I've already experimented myself.

I'm always wanting something thats low recoil / low velocity cause I don't want my mom to blow her ear drums out. She's already deaf in one ear, so I don't wanna make her deaf in both.

Double Naught Spy
December 21, 2010, 10:46 AM
Zanoletti Double Impact. It is a larger range big bird round with 2 one ounce shot cups with shot about double the size of bird shot. The first cup opens almost immediately and the second shot cup stays together for about 30-50 yards.

Your most definently correct, but I guess its just personal preference. No doubt that ranger would rip the target up and would be a A+ round. I guess I just never really thought I would ever need more power than birdshot from a 16ga, also I guarentee it wouldnt go through Kevlar but I was meaning it will spread out better and enter in different areas of the body of the target did have kevlar on

Somehow, I just don't think I would want to count on a few flyers that maybe strike an arm or belly and then don't penetrate very far to be substantial enough to convince the intruder to break off the attack. That is what you are talking about, convincing him to leave, not getting an actual physiological stop.

zippy13
December 21, 2010, 10:56 AM
Thanks for the heads-up, now you can go from the generic to the specific:
You want recommendations/info on a HD round for your mother to use in 8-shot M'berg pump with a 11-87 as possible back-up.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about over-penetration if your only concern is damaging your home. Typically, it's injuring the neighbors that's of concern -- it's easier to patch plaster and drywall than people.

So, you'd like to know about something with smaller pellets than a typical 00-Buck Mil/LE load. It should pass the leather jacket test, be quieter and possibly low recoil/velocity. It's barrel length that has a lot to do with blast noise, the laws of physics say the shorter the barrel on your HD gun, the bigger the boom -- let's see what the members can recommend within your criteria… Double Naught Spy has an interesting idea.

rude robert
December 21, 2010, 11:01 AM
second on the #4

pabuckslayer08
December 21, 2010, 05:11 PM
You guys are most definently correct about the heavier load. Just to clarify I shoot high brass bird shot and not low brass. 2 3/4 high brass bird shot from a 16 gauge. The idea of birdshot mixed with a few roundballs is a very lethal load

markj
December 21, 2010, 05:26 PM
I keep slugs in mine, at 10 feet the load will not open up so I just keep them slugs in there. I do have some 00 buck in 3in mag works on yotes just fine. I also keep a box of no. 2 copper plated goose loads, seen a deer get hit with one and it went right down, dont understand why he had those.......

xMINORxTHREATx
December 21, 2010, 08:04 PM
I'm not concerned with damage to the house, as I am pellets passing through a wall and hitting another member of my family. It's not just her in the house most of the time.

4runnerman
December 21, 2010, 08:40 PM
I'm not concerned with damage to the house, as I am pellets passing through a wall and hitting another member of my family. It's not just her in the house most of the time

How true,The house is just sheetrock,tv's,ect. The other senerio i could not live with..

xMINORxTHREATx
December 21, 2010, 08:56 PM
Dropping the BG, cool.

Dropping the BG, and my TV. DANG it but cool. Least he didn't steal it.

Dropping the BG, tv, and my 8 year old niece? I wouldn't be able to live with myself after that.

Alden
December 21, 2010, 09:06 PM
#4 buckshot is .24 caliber in diameter, 20 grains in weight, and there are usually just shy of 50 pellets in a 12 gauge shell.

At 10 yards there's not much that wont stop, but at longer ranges it's much less lethal and less liable to penetrate through walls. Not saying it won't penetrate, it will, but just with less energy due to having much less mass than 00 buck.

ET.
December 22, 2010, 09:03 AM
I've heard this tune before. It seems that every so often someone decides to elevate birdshot to an effective SD/HD round. There are way too many reports & studies about birdshot being ineffective in self defense situations for me to even consider loading my 12 gauge with it. I occasionly use my Judge for SD also. Some people even think that bird shot is effecive from that gun also. There is no way that I would trust my life to 12 gauge birdshot must less from a 410 handgun. The only situation I could think of using birdshot from a pistol would be a carjacking where the perp is shot in the face at point blank range. Just saying...

xMINORxTHREATx
December 22, 2010, 09:12 AM
I don't want to use birdshot either, like I said, I put a leather jacket over a block of ballistic gel and only like 5 pellets made it through, and even then it was subcutaneous.

Do they make a low brass buck shot?

rantingredneck
December 22, 2010, 09:24 AM
Two things and I'll shut up:

1) If a round is an effective stopper of hostilities it will absolutely penetrate walls and kill innocents if fired toward walls with innocents behind them. Know your field of fire. For apartment dwellers and homeowners with split floor plans this is a particular concern.

2) Low velocity slugs can actually penetrate farther than higher velocity slugs. Less deformation of the slug due to reduced velocity allows it to penetrate more, not less. The low velocity slugs are designed with reduced recoil in mind, not reduced penetration.

Personally I use Federal LE12700 (see typical pattern in pic below), but my circumstances are not yours. I live in a home where all bedrooms are on one side of the house and all likely points of entry are on the other.

http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo306/rantingredneck/DSC02359.jpg
12 yard pattern from 20" IC choked 870. 12 yards is the longest shot I could concievably take inside my home.

I suppose that was more like 3 or 4 things.....:D

xMINORxTHREATx
December 22, 2010, 09:31 AM
My shotgun isn't choked, and that sounds like a viable point there RantingRedneck (about the low velocity slugs)

What about the disc rounds? I've seen a few of them with disc shaped lead. How well do they penetrate. Seems to me they wouldn't penetrate well through walls because of their shape. But what about a soft target? Any one know?

rantingredneck
December 22, 2010, 09:33 AM
No idea on the disc rounds, but with Federal LE12700 the choke is fairly irrelevant. The flite control wad does most of the patterning for you. Tight patterns even with a cyl bore barrel.

EDIT: This is a somewhat crappy cell phone pic, but the best I could come up with from a cyl bore 18" 870.

http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo306/rantingredneck/870%20stuff/DeadBlueBadguy870.jpg

The pattern from LE12700 is circled in red COM. Shot at 25 yds.

The holes in the head area of the target are from 3 Federal Tru-Ball standard velocity slugs fired at the same distance. Shot as fast as I could cycle the pump and resettle on target. Probably 1-1.5 seconds between shots max.

2nd EDIT: Don't laugh at my multicolored 870........:) It was an Asheville PD trade in that I replaced stocks and added a green extension I had laying in the parts bin. Also added a Marbles tritium bead (really liking that so far).

Dobe
December 22, 2010, 08:05 PM
Here is a link from Shotgunworld.com, which may make some reconsider small shot for defense, especially if your assailant is wearing a heavy leather jacker or a thick wool coat.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958

xMINORxTHREATx
December 22, 2010, 08:44 PM
Dobe, are you suggesting birdshot is still a viable option?

Dobe
December 22, 2010, 08:53 PM
Just the opposite. I don't believe birdshot (8s, 7 1/2, and even 6's) have the penetration needed for HD.

xMINORxTHREATx
December 23, 2010, 08:17 AM
Ok, just checking. lol

I wish I would have taken pictures when I did my leather jacket test.

Maybe I will do it again this spring and post some pics of it.

4runnerman
December 23, 2010, 09:50 AM
I agree with minor to a point... Birdshot to a person 6 feet away with just a t shirt on will be very deadly,put him further away with a jacket on and story is different.
bridshot at close range to raw flesh would be very,very deadly. I have shot birdshot at say 6 feet into a 2 x 4 and it totally destroys the wood into splinters. At that range to a human i have no doubt that there would be no reason to chamber a second round,i don,t care how big or strong he is. So as silly as this seems i think it could also depend on the time of year. I don't see (around here) to many people wearing a heavy leather jacket in the summer whens it's 85 degrees outside. There was a story not long ago about a 13 or so old girl in Montana that meet 2 burglers in her house. She meet the first one about 2 steps outside her bedroom door.What they did not know is she was a vetrain compitition shooter. Short of the story is first one at about 10 feet one shot to the midsection,Dead on the spot,second one got it in the groin area and made it about 10 feet out the door before he died. Now the story did not specifically say what shot was in the gun,But i would have to assume it was run of the mill game or target load shot in there. Bird shot is a different story im sure,but do not think for a second that if you get hit unprotected with it at 6 or 8 feet that you are going to walk away from it and brush the sand off outside. You will be walking toward the bright white light asking for forgivness. The massive amout of tissue damage is going to shut you down very fast. It will be the faster blood donation you have ever made.

As for shooting it at 25 yards at someone,UMMM do you live in a Mansion?.
I have a 3000 sq foot house,My farthest shot i could take in this house is maybe 25 feet.Most senarios would be 10 feet or less. The concern of hitting others is still there,that is a given with any gun single projectile or multipal.

spacecoast
December 23, 2010, 09:56 AM
Birdshot at 20 feet from a 18.5" barrel... it's not going to feel good, but there's no way I would trust this pattern to bring down someone in heavy clothing or leather.

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac115/spacecoast_guns/Targets/7steel20ft.jpg


On the other hand, 00 buck at 20 feet is devastating (2 shots shown). Each hole is a 55 grain .33" diameter ball at well over 1000 fps, and there are nine of them in each shot -

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac115/spacecoast_guns/Targets/00buck20ft.jpg

xMINORxTHREATx
December 23, 2010, 10:00 AM
"faster blood donation ever made"

I agree. If someone breaks into my house shirtless, birdshot may just do the trick.

But I honestly think even a heavy sweatshirt would minimize the damage. Like I said, my test with an el-cheapo leather jacket only had a handfull of pellets penetrate less than 1/4 of an inch. I'm sure it would leave a massive bruise but nothing more serious than that. Might be better off with high-brass BEAN BAG rounds.

Dobe
December 23, 2010, 10:08 AM
Personally, I would use #4 buckshot or larger.

KingEdward
December 23, 2010, 10:39 AM
for HD, I keep my mossberg loaded with 5 rounds of #4 heavy shot.

4runnerman
December 23, 2010, 10:52 AM
Agreed Minor.One more thing i need to point out,The difference between leather and a shirt in like the difference between steel and sheetrock.
Leather is a very,very tough material. I watched a show once CSI i beleaive(not sure if the show is credibal or not).But they put a leather jacket on a maniquine and had a elderly lady try to stab it with a knife. With all her might she could not make the knife sink in. This is why leather is used in Motorcycle jackets,shoes,ect,ect, It is tough and saves the body in certain cases from damage. So i put to you any one not wearing a leather jacket getting hit by birdshot at 10 feet or less,Lets just say he won't be an issue a second time to any one else. Leather is the whole issue in this senario.
More from people on this forum i have read,,A 45 ACP at 25 yards will sometimes not penitrate a leather jacket, True or not i could not tell you.

Double Naught Spy
December 23, 2010, 11:52 AM
Agreed Minor.One more thing i need to point out,The difference between leather and a shirt in like the difference between steel and sheetrock. Leather is a very,very tough material.

There are all sorts of leathers and thicknesses. You can't classify leather singly anymore than you can classify the shooting skills of all shooters as being superb. There are good shooters and bad, fast and slow.

I watched a show once CSI i beleaive(not sure if the show is credibal or not).
CSI isn't real. It is a fictional show. CSI will tell you stuff about forensics like Call of Duty will teach you about firearms and lethality.

But they put a leather jacket on a maniquine and had a elderly lady try to stab it with a knife. With all her might she could not make the knife sink in.

She could not make it sink in because that is what the script said, not because she wasn't physically capable. There is a lot more penetrative power at the point of a knife from an old lady than from an individual birdshot pellet.

This is why leather is used in Motorcycle jackets,shoes,ect,ect, It is tough and saves the body in certain cases from damage.

Yes, some leathers are very good for protecting the body from abrasion damage, aka road rash, but certainly not all leathers.

More from people on this forum i have read,,A 45 ACP at 25 yards will sometimes not penitrate a leather jacket, True or not i could not tell you.

While I am sure it may have happened, I am also sure that there have been instances where rifle rounds didn't penetrate somebody's leather something somewhere, but that doesn't mean leather is good ballistic protection.

4runnerman
December 23, 2010, 12:35 PM
All true Double.Which just furthers my point,Any one thinking birdshot from a shotgun at 6 or 8 feet with no jacket is not leathal is just fooling themselfs.

Dobe
December 23, 2010, 01:27 PM
The problem is that you don't know what your assailant will be wearing. And also, you have to penetrate not only his clothing, but his sternum, ribs, or shull. Bird shot, is not a good HD load.

KingEdward
December 23, 2010, 01:28 PM
Bird shot is for birds.

4runnerman
December 23, 2010, 02:00 PM
Come on people, Im not going to get dragged into this any farther. I use a 45 with a 300 gn manstopper custom made bullet. Facts are facts. I shoot you with a 12 gauge at 6 feet with birdshot,YOU ARE~DEAD,,No if ands or buts about it. Letsget real here ok. It is not something i would choose to use in the house,but that don't change the facts.

Dobe
December 23, 2010, 02:03 PM
6 feet is about the aveage height of a man. What happens at 20 - 30 feet (not an unusual distance in a house)? Do you feel as confident?

4runnerman
December 23, 2010, 02:16 PM
What happens at 20 - 30 feet (not an unusual distance in a house)?

I ask you again do you live in a mansion? 20 to 30 feet..Step it out once.Ya maybe if he is up against the wall on one side of house and you are up against the other. Most likley sanerio is probebly 10 feet or less. At entrance to bedroom,at bottom of steps, at end of hallway,ect,ect. At 20 to 30 feet you better have a very lagit reason for shooting him.Unless he also has a gun you might find yourself in the klinker. With a knife or bat or such,Your plea of my life was in iminate danger is going down the toilet along with your chances of not going to jail. Look in my humble opinion a shot gun is a poor choice for self defense in the first place. Long barrel with to many restrictions in a house to make a fast and clean sweep for aiming. To much potential for collatral damage. I would hate to be stuck in a hallway with one coming from behind and one from in front. Each to their own i guess.

rantingredneck
December 23, 2010, 02:20 PM
As for shooting it at 25 yards at someone,UMMM do you live in a Mansion?.


Nope, 12 yards is the longest concievable shot I could take inside my home. (Refer to post 30 where I said that the first time).

Dobe
December 23, 2010, 02:23 PM
Don't live in a mansion, but do have a hallway that extends beyond 20'. And a shotgun is a superb home defense firearm. It could easily be the best there is. In my humble opinion, it isn't the idea of a wide pattern, but rather the payload. Where a handgun may be a fight stopper, a shotgun IS a fight stopper.

rantingredneck
December 23, 2010, 02:28 PM
At 20 to 30 feet you better have a very lagit reason for shooting him.Unless he also has a gun you might find yourself in the klinker. With a knife or bat or such,Your plea of my life was in iminate danger is going down the toilet along with your chances of not going to jail.

Tueller Drill (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS327US327&q=tueller+drill)

A knife or bat are lethal weapons. 21 feet puts that weapon roughly a second and a half from killing you.

4runnerman
December 23, 2010, 03:30 PM
Sorry to disagree with you rant..In my class we were taught 14 feet or less or your in trouble with the law.

4runnerman
December 23, 2010, 03:33 PM
Nope, 12 yards is the longest concievable shot I could take inside my home.

Sorry Rant,i think someone else posted that not you.

rantingredneck
December 23, 2010, 03:39 PM
Sorry to disagree with you rant..In my class we were taught 14 feet or less or your in trouble with the law.

Which class was this where the instructor is trying to get his students killed? Seriously, the instructor needs to re-evaluate what he's teaching.

4runnerman
December 23, 2010, 04:10 PM
That was an actual NRA Certified class i took. Dealing with the laws of self defense and when it is permitable to use deadly force. If you check for yourself ,,because someone breaks into your house DOES NOT give you the right to kill him. You can do no harm to him unless you feel your life is in iminate danger(and the proof of burden will be on you).Not him.

KingEdward
December 23, 2010, 04:46 PM
I am far from an expert.

Do I believe being shot with bird shot at 6-15 feet is pretty lethal?

sure, but it would depend on a few factors (layers, shot placement, etc)

Do I believe #4 heavy shot, or #3 buck shot is more lethal in HD situations
at 6-15 feet? Yes. Regardless of layers, but shot placement very key

I do not have to worry about 'overpenetration' as it relates to bystanders or innocents.

rantingredneck
December 23, 2010, 05:06 PM
That was an actual NRA Certified class i took. Dealing with the laws of self defense and when it is permitable to use deadly force. If you check for yourself ,,because someone breaks into your house DOES NOT give you the right to kill him. You can do no harm to him unless you feel your life is in iminate danger(and the proof of burden will be on you).Not him.

It varies by state. Some states, you absolutely have the right to use deadly force against someone who has broken into your occupied dwelling. Some states you have the right to use deadly force to prevent forcible entry into your occupied dwelling if you believe the person intends to commit a felony therein (NC is one of those and breaking into an occupied dwelling in NC is a felony, so.........). Which means that yes if someone is kicking my door in in NC I do not have to wait until they are successful to open fire.


But that's not what we were talking about......what we were talking about is 14 feet and a knife/bat wielding attacker...........Let's get back to that......

To say that a knife wielding assailant had better be at maximum 14 feet away from you before you defend yourself is quite silly, given the accepted and repeatedly proven fact that an average person can close 21 feet in a second and a half. About the same time it takes the average person to clear leather and fire. A man standing 21 feet away from you with a knife or a ball bat, with ill intentions toward you, is a real and credible threat. If your instructor is teaching his students that their shoot/no shoot line is to be drawn at 14 feet and no farther, then he is teaching nonsense IMO.

rantingredneck
December 23, 2010, 05:18 PM
And please don't take that as personal or meant to insult, it is not. It is meant to hopefully inform and get you to seek additional information beyond the (in my opinion) mis-information which you were taught by your instructor.

4runnerman
December 23, 2010, 05:34 PM
Did not take it personnely(thanks) I believe what instructor meant ,was gun already drawn.Also we were told 1 second,they figured is 14 or 15 feet.
Yes i give you laws change from state to state. I will have to check another source for info.One would (want to ) beleive what they are teaching any how.