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H1N1
December 3, 2010, 10:30 AM
Hi, I recently went to purchase a shotgun at a loca gun store and was that there was a delay being put on the relase of the weapon. I have learned that this is often normal procedure. But here is where it gets weird:

The gun shop tells me that th gun is mine of the FBI does not call back in a certain a,not of days. Low and behold, that day comes and I call and ask the shop if I can pluck up the gun as they said I could:

The gun store owner decides to call the FBI again (for what reason I do not know), and the FBI tells them that they are "investigating" and not to release the gun.

I then ask the gun shop for my 500.00 back and he says he is not doing anything until the FBI gets back to them.

What is this?

I am almost certain that I have never been convicted of a felony. My ex was having me bogusly arrested repeatedly but I was never convicted. All the charges were repeatedly thrown out.

Don't I have the right to get my money back?

*** does it mean that I am being "investigated"?

The gun shop owner even went as far to state that maybe the FBI is preparing to either arrest me or charge me with something.

I don't what to sound like a conspiracy guy here but could it have anything to do with the farcy that I am a parental rights advocate and have protested about the mistreatment of fathers after divorce?

Damn, I want my money back.....

What do you guys (gals) think?

Skans
December 3, 2010, 10:58 AM
I believe all dealers need to call in the background check even if you have a carry permit. The carry permit gets you out of the waiting period if your state has one.

Doyle
December 3, 2010, 10:59 AM
It isn't the FBI that is doing the hold. Each state runs its own check system. If you get denied, you file an appeal in which they have to tell you exactly why it was denied. If the information is erroneous then you have the right to get it cleaned up.

There are many people that have names that match up with bad guys. That will cause them to always get delayed or even denied outright. If you find yourself in that position and you plan on doing lots of purchases you can apply for a unique identifyer number that they will use instead of your name.

H1N1
December 3, 2010, 11:36 AM
Skans,

Thanks for replying. I am a firm believer in a background check but my issue lies with the fact that the gun dealer went against everything he stated.

He first told me that if the FBI did not call back in a certain amount of time that the gun was mine. This turned out to be a lie.

The dealer is now refusing to release my money and the gun!

On another note, the gun in question is a

Mossberg 500
12 gauge
20" BBL
8 Shot
with a recoil reduction grip....

Any thoughts or opinions on the gun?

Pahoo
December 3, 2010, 11:42 AM
H1N1
Not going to ask you where you are from as I saw this identical incident happen yesterday, at a local gun store. In fact, the fella under review, just got back from Irag. The clerk commented that this happens all the time and not to worry about it for now. Good luck and give it time to play out. I'm sure these folks have more delay excuses than you or I could understand or appreciate. .... :rolleyes:


Be Safe !!!

H1N1
December 3, 2010, 11:44 AM
Tyme,

I do a lot of work with family court related matters and there is a concerted effort to ensure that no valid statistics are recorded due to the fact that it will highlight the fact that many restraining orders are being improperly granted with the sole purpose of gaining an advantage in court.

With the passing of the VAWA (Violence Against Womens Act), the lws became so vague in regards to what constituted a violation of domestic violence, that it became law that someone could be arrested because they "felt" threatened.

Not that they were actually threatened or in harms way, but instead "felt" threatened.

So many people were being falsely arrested here in New York that groups sought the very statistics that you are asking for through the Freedom of Information Act.

Not surprisingly:

There are no records of how many arrests occurred from restraining orders that ended up being tossed
There are no stats regarding the number of order of protections issued

If there was any documentation that showed that almost 75% of the arrests
were the result of bogus charges, the DV industry and the judges would be called out. That is a 40 Billion dollar a year industry which does not want that to happen.

divil
December 3, 2010, 11:50 AM
I believe all dealers need to call in the background check even if you have a carry permit. The carry permit gets you out of the waiting period if your state has one.

Not true - some states allow the dealer to waive the background check if you have a CCW. I'm not sure how it works legally since the background check is mandated by federal law, but my local dealer told me he would waive the NICS check if I had the CCW, and we have no waiting period or anything like that in my state.

I always get delayed because I'm a foreigner, but my dealer never asks for the money until the transfer gets approved. I would never pay up front like that because you have no way of knowing how long the delay will be. Legally they may be able to transfer the gun after 3 days, but my dealer is either not aware of that, or is unwilling to do it (they are under no obligations whatsoever), so my delays could theoretically be forever.

I am pretty sure the dealer has to give you your money back since you have not received the product you paid for.

youngunz4life
December 3, 2010, 11:51 AM
FBI, I think you said NY right? Don't push it- the gun shop guy doesn't know what the deal is either, so its all speculative. When you do talk again try and ask about Definate timelines good or bad, so you can know what to expect. I wouldn't want to wait 'forever' either, especially after you waited the original time.

I was wondering if the guy he called that day was a regular contact that helped him or just some joe schmo who happened to answer the phone that day when he said not to sell it. I think you'll be ok, but I can understand the anxiety and/or impatience you feel everyday that you're at a standstill on this. Please keep us posted.

youngunz4life
December 3, 2010, 12:02 PM
H1N1,

Try not to jump to conclusions, but I can understand your anxiety(I responded to your recent thread also). They may just have the right to put it on hold for another amount of time by NY's and/or federal laws, and they may have chosen to do this for whatever reason. It will still go thru if and when nothing else 'comes back' or you have legally jumped thru the hoops(as in they will have to ^&*# or get off the pot eventually). I Know for a Fact others on this forum will have better, more concrete advice about this issue(s), but thats my two cents.

curt.45
December 3, 2010, 12:08 PM
H1N1, your dealer sounds to be pulling something fishy, like hoping you get arrested and he gets to keep 500$, hope you have a receipt, I'd not buy the gun or anything else from him ever.

just my .02

LH2 if your ex had cut you she would have been arrested, next time try to have only defensive wounds on yourself, and DON"T TOUCH HER.

also just my .02

RosaMariTB, the fact your here proves your not one of "those women" I on the other hand was married to one of "those women" I lost track of the number of times she hit me or tried to punch me just to try and get me to hit her so she could have me arrested, it didn't work I was raised better than that.

Skans
December 3, 2010, 12:14 PM
Not true - some states allow the dealer to waive the background check if you have a CCW. I'm not sure how it works legally since the background check is mandated by federal law, but my local dealer told me he would waive the NICS check if I had the CCW, and we have no waiting period or anything like that in my state.

It must be a state by state thing.

H1N1, I wish I could give you some information on the shotgun, but I have no experience with that model

thesheepdog
December 3, 2010, 12:16 PM
My state skips the BG check since I have my CHL. I haven't ever had an issue with delay's.
My only guess is that someone else (convicted felon) has a name and information very similar to you, and that's why the FBI is being slow.

The dealer sounds fishy and I would be on high alert for some conspiracy.
A gun dealer is there to make money, and if you've paid and the FBI isn't approving you, he'll come out with some extra money.
I suggest you wait a a couple more days, and see what happens. If you don't get approved, demand your money.

divil
December 3, 2010, 12:18 PM
My only guess is that someone else (convicted felon) has a name and information very similar to you, and that's why the FBI is being slow.

You should always opt to put your social security number on the form for this very reason.

youngunz4life
December 3, 2010, 12:21 PM
I agree Divil. The social security # is optional and your right, but it is the best, identfying number to have on the paperwork while it collects cobwebs in wherever that "safe" is. The number protects you.

hogdogs
December 3, 2010, 12:27 PM
Didn't the Gun Dealer VIOLATE FEDERAL LAW by SELLING a gun to a person that hasn't yet passed a BACK GROUND check?

He has sold the gun, not taken a deposit... He basically admits to selling the firearm by not handing over the money... Most gun dealers don't offer REFUNDS on gun purchases...

My local dealer and walmart will not take my money until I am cleared to PURCHASE...

Brent

youngunz4life
December 3, 2010, 12:33 PM
this dealer is required by law to return the funds if OP doesn't receive the weapon - I thought - please let me know if I am wrong here. Mainly as well, can said dealer keep the funds if the OP is indeed arrested, or can OP be arrested while coming back to get the firearm after the dealer calls him for rouse pickup? I apologize if I am barking up the wrong tree here; I am not too good with conspiracy theories. That "Jesse Ventura Conspircay Theory" show about Oswalt in the CIA and Kennedy's assassination was BADASS though!!:D

divil
December 3, 2010, 12:54 PM
Didn't the Gun Dealer VIOLATE FEDERAL LAW by SELLING a gun to a person that hasn't yet passed a BACK GROUND check?

I don't think so:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr478.101.pdf:
ยง 478.102 Sales or deliveries of firearms
on and after November 30,
1998.
(a) Background check. Except as provided
in paragraph (d) of this section, a
licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
or licensed dealer (the licensee)
shall not sell, deliver, or transfer a
firearm to any other person who is not
licensed under this part unless the licensee
meets the following requirements:
(1) Before the completion of the
transfer, the licensee has contacted
NICS;
(2)(i) NICS informs the licensee that
it has no information that receipt of
the firearm by the transferee would be
in violation of Federal or State law

(Emphasis added by me)

Although the word "sell" is used in the first paragraph, the first condition clearly applies to the transfer, not the sale.

Tom Servo
December 3, 2010, 01:01 PM
The gun shop owner even went as far to state that maybe the FBI is preparing to either arrest me or charge me with something.
I don't know how he would know that. The NICS system does not tell the dealer why a purchase is delayed or denied.

It isn't the FBI that is doing the hold. Each state runs its own check system.
It varies from state to state, but not all states do the check. In some states, it's just an FBI check.

What date was the check first called in? If there's not a response after three business days, the dealer is clear to release the firearm. There's a FAQ on the process here (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/fact-sheet).

AH.74
December 3, 2010, 01:42 PM
What date was the check first called in? If there's not a response after three business days, the dealer is clear to release the firearm. There's a FAQ on the process here.

Down at the bottom of that page there is this statement:

"The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 allows three business days to obtain this information before a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) can transfer a firearm. The FFL is not prohibited from transferring the firearm after three business days have passed; however, the FFL is not required to transfer the firearm."

It is the dealer's discretion. He was acting within reason to call back, although I would also be perturbed if I were the OP.

To the OP- hang tight. If there is no issue you should get the ok. I can also understand the dealer not wanting to give you your money back, because he would want you to come back for the gun if given the ok.

If it turns out that you get denied I cannot for any reason see the dealer refusing to give you your money back.

One other thing- you mentioned an ex. If there were repeated arrests they may just be taking extra time to be sure there were in fact no prohibiting domestic factors. That's a biggie- it can be a misdemeanor conviction in that case.

Mike Irwin
December 3, 2010, 01:59 PM
H1N1,

Actually, if this happens again, please do NOT repost your thread. Simply PM a moderator and ask that your new posts and responses to it be split out of the old thread into a new one as I have done.

divil
December 3, 2010, 03:39 PM
The gun shop owner even went as far to state that maybe the FBI is preparing to either arrest me or charge me with something.

I missed that comment before...anyway it sounds like a load of nonsense to me. I don't think it's a crime to attempt to buy a gun from an FFL even if you turn out to be prohibited. I believe it's only a crime if the transfer of the gun actually takes place. Does anyone know this for sure?

steveno
December 3, 2010, 05:28 PM
when I worked at Cabela's no money changed hands until the background check was complete. so why give the dealer your money first?

Shadi Khalil
December 3, 2010, 06:55 PM
H1N1, I wish I could give you some information on the shotgun, but I have no experience with that model

I can because I have the same shotgun, minus the recoil reduction grip. It's a great shotgun and all but $500 seems a bit steep. I think my wife paid a bit over $300 OTD for mine. I guess it varies by state but just thought I'd let you know considering you already feel the dealer is sketchy.

k in AR
December 3, 2010, 07:00 PM
Every firearm dealer I have done business with here in Arkansas would never take a penny until you are approved. They might call the police if you came back a felon... but other than that, approved = sale, delay = come back & pay / pick up when approved, deny = thanks for stoping by but "no way".

5.56RifleGuy
December 3, 2010, 08:07 PM
In Florida if you get a conditional non approval for a gun purchase they have to come back with a definative answer in a few days. They give you a call back date and if you call back and they dont give you a denial you can release the firearm to the person in question.

HOWEVER, if it comes back as a denial afterwords, the police can go take the gun from the person in question.

medic15al
December 3, 2010, 09:02 PM
The issue is the theft of $500.

OP basically said to cancel the sale and the store kept his money.

File theft charges against the store, $500 may be felony level in your state, and take him to small claims court, then take him to Civil court for damages related to the theft.

goodspeed(TPF)
December 3, 2010, 09:14 PM
I am almost certain that I have never been convicted of a felony.

:D Man, that's funneh.

Steam Boat
December 3, 2010, 09:27 PM
Well, when I go to purchase a firearm from a gun shop or dealer, they don't get my cash until after the background check. Once in a while it has taken a day or two. But no cash from me until the background check has cleared.

medic15al
December 3, 2010, 09:28 PM
:oSorry, Wrong thread........:o

Trying to reply in another

brickeyee
December 3, 2010, 09:49 PM
I believe all dealers need to call in the background check even if you have a carry permit. The carry permit gets you out of the waiting period if your state has one.

Some states are allowed to waive the NICS check for CWP holders.

It depends on how the state CWP system operates.

It has to satisfy the feds for the exemption to happen.

CPTMurdoc30
December 3, 2010, 09:54 PM
I get delayed almost every time. I have a social 1 number off from a Navy deserter. (mine is 6XX-XX-XXXX his is 5XX-XX-XXXX where all X's are the same numbers) How do I know this, because they tried to arrest me when I signed up for the Army.

Every dealer I have ever dealt with won't even let you PAY till the 4473 is back and clear. I would insist that my money be returned to me. He has no legal right to keep it. I have always went in picked out my gun filled out the paperwork then waited for it to come back from NICS then I paid. I tried to pay early but they all said they can't do it as it is against the law. Maybe in VA it is I don't know as I am not a lawyer

pichon
December 3, 2010, 10:48 PM
I believe all dealers need to call in the background check even if you have a carry permit. The carry permit gets you out of the waiting period if your state has one.
Some states are allowed to waive the NICS check for CWP holders.

It depends on how the state CWP system operates.

It has to satisfy the feds for the exemption to happen.

In Utah the CCP has to be checked for validity with the agency who issued it, (30 second phone call to the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification). No fee, no NICS.

Bamashooter
December 3, 2010, 11:11 PM
I have been delayed on about half of my purchases through the years. No big deal. I know that after a certain amount of days with no response from the nics they can move foward with the sale of the firearm. Never in all my years do i give the money up front. I always wait until the background has been done. Something sounds fishy to me. After your time waiting was over it wasnt necessary for the dealer to call nics again. I guess you learned a good lesson, dont give them money until you have your gun. One other observation i would like to comment on is how can you not know if you are a felon or not? Seems to me like it would be something a person would know....

youngunz4life
December 3, 2010, 11:19 PM
I have never had a delay, but I did try and pay a man(dealer) for a weapon that was out of stock, on hold, or something to that affect. I figured maybe I should do that before the price goes up and/or because it was Very difficult to find this weapon anywhere. The dealer informed me that it would be wrong for him to take my money, and no dealer should do this until the sale has no setbacks.

Hang in there. You can push it, but as long as the guy coughs up the firearm at least you'll solve that hurdle. Unless you receive the purchase gun within a relatively short time, get the $ back from this dealer before it goes any further.

ps- you have the right under the Freedom of Information Act of writing a small letter to the FBI and receiving any and all records they have about you for free with no hassle.

H1N1
December 4, 2010, 12:10 AM
Hey everyone,

Thank you for all the great feedback. After reading your responses, I thought I would offer some of my own replies.

1 - I am glad that I humored you with the " I am almost certain I have not been convicted of a felony"

2 - Why would I pay for the gun before I got it? The process was explained to me as being standard procedure by the dealer. This is my first gun.

3 - With regards to the waiting period. I point blank asked the dealer about what would happen if for some reason the FBI did not respond in the time frame that is normal. The dealer got the manager who came out and told me that "the gun is yours and if the FBI has a problem, they can come back to your house and get it, we have met our responsibility.

4 - I then asked what would happen if I was denied for some reason. Again, the dealer got the manager and stated that I could get my money back.

Again, I really appreciate all the feedback I have received. I am going back to the shop tomorrow and will be pretty adamant about either getting my money back or the gun that I am excited about.

I will most definitely post a reply and let everyone know what transpired.

Regardless of how this turns out, the dealer is an ass for going back on his word. The dealer should have never told me that if the FBI did not respond that I can come pick up the gun, only to renege on that.

If the dealer would have just said originally that it might be 2,3, or even 4 weeks, that would have been fine.

A man is only as good as his word.

raftman
December 4, 2010, 12:15 AM
I too have never encountered a gun shop that would accept one's money before the background check was finished. I would not agree to be minus several hundred dollars without the certainty of being plus a firearm.

CPTMurdoc30
December 4, 2010, 12:45 AM
Get your money back and go to a different store even if you have to drive an hour to get there.

I drove 2 hours and paid an extra $50 because I trusted that shop over others in my area.

rburch
December 4, 2010, 01:15 AM
My only guess is that someone else (convicted felon) has a name and information very similar to you, and that's why the FBI is being slow.
You should always opt to put your social security number on the form for this very reason.

I get delayed almost every time. I have a social 1 number off from a Navy deserter. (mine is 6XX-XX-XXXX his is 5XX-XX-XXXX where all X's are the same numbers) How do I know this, because they tried to arrest me when I signed up for the Army.

I put my DL# i get delayed, SSN delayed. I've never not been delayed when buying a gun. Always approved, just takes at least 6 hours to do so. I've just learned to deal with it.

Found out a while ago I had the luck to be born in the same county, on the same day, as a guy with multiple felony convictions.

I also happen to share the same initials with him, and our last names are the same just spelled a little differently.


I too have never encountered a gun shop that would accept one's money before the background check was finished. I would not agree to be minus several hundred dollars without the certainty of being plus a firearm.

Every dealer I have ever dealt with won't even let you PAY till the 4473 is back and clear. I would insist that my money be returned to me. He has no legal right to keep it. I have always went in picked out my gun filled out the paperwork then waited for it to come back from NICS then I paid. I tried to pay early but they all said they can't do it as it is against the law. Maybe in VA it is I don't know as I am not a lawyer

Past 2-3 times I've bought stuff here in VA i've paid when i did the paperwork. We both know I'm gonna be approved since i buy from him pretty often. It just takes them a bit to ok it. Normally go in on my lunch, do paperwork and pay, go in after work and pick it up.

Spats McGee
December 4, 2010, 09:37 AM
H1N1, in addition to the other good advice that you've been given, I'd suggest that you clear up the issue of whether you've ever been convicted of a felony. I don't know where you are, but in Arkansas, I can download a release for my Arkansas Crime Information Center records, fill it out, and take it to the Arkansas State Police. That and (I think) $25 gets me a copy of my ACIC records, which are tied to the National Crime Information Center. Those records will tell me definitively if I have a felony record. I assume that your home state has a similar procedure.

goodspeed(TPF)
December 4, 2010, 01:21 PM
H1N1, in addition to the other good advice that you've been given, I'd suggest that you clear up the issue of whether you've ever been convicted of a felony. I don't know where you are, but in Arkansas, I can download a release for my Arkansas Crime Information Center records, fill it out, and take it to the Arkansas State Police. That and (I think) $25 gets me a copy of my ACIC records, which are tied to the National Crime Information Center. Those records will tell me definitively if I have a felony record. I assume that your home state has a similar procedure.

Quite excellent advice. I second the notion. Keep us posted on how this turns out.

AH.74
December 4, 2010, 01:45 PM
I missed that comment before...anyway it sounds like a load of nonsense to me. I don't think it's a crime to attempt to buy a gun from an FFL even if you turn out to be prohibited. I believe it's only a crime if the transfer of the gun actually takes place. Does anyone know this for sure?

Divil,

If you know you are prohibited and try to buy a gun you have lied on the answers to the questions on the form 4473. This is indeed a crime. I have heard of people being delayed while the police are called to come arrest them.

brickeyee
December 4, 2010, 04:08 PM
The warnings about lying on the 4473 are right on the form above the signature block.

jmr40
December 4, 2010, 10:35 PM
Here in Georgia I never have to deal with a background check when buying a gun. They just record my DL number and the CCW permit number on the 4473 after I fill it out. They take my money and I leave with the gun.

I do have to be fingerprinted and a submit to a very thorough background check every 5 years to keep the permit. If I mess up the permit is revoked.

Some states charge for the background check and that money will be kept even if you are denied, but I've never seen any money change hands for the gun until after the background check clears.

H1N1
December 5, 2010, 12:10 AM
Unfortunately, I was told that the person I need to see at the gun shop will not be back until Monday. That is fine with me because i believe that there can not be much of an excuse by then to deny me either the money or the gun.

As far as the felony goes, I had a private investigator run my criminal background and no felonies were on my record.

The only issue left is the false arrests that my ex wife put me through. None of which were ever prosecuted by the DA.

I have to be honest, I have learned a real lesson here from both this transaction, as well as from all the information that everyone provided.

I will update this on Monday.

Have a great weekend everyone.

youngunz4life
December 5, 2010, 12:41 AM
thanx sean. I'm putting my bets on you getting the gun monday, but please definately let us know.

alpha2delta
December 5, 2010, 10:49 AM
I work for a firearms dealer in Maryland and I can tell you that this does
happen sometimes.
Under the Brady Law they have 3 days to proceed or delay the sale or
you may pick up the firearm. If the dealer is making it his policy to not
transfer the firearm until they are told to proceed with the sale then I
would ask the dealer for the NICS number on this sale and the information
to request an appeal. If you do have something in your background I can
tell you that they will take it to court and make the dealer appear as a
witness against you with the forms that you filled out. Hope this info helps.
Good luck to you !

Gary L. Griffiths
December 5, 2010, 12:25 PM
The only issue left is the false arrests that my ex wife put me through. None of which were ever prosecuted by the DA.

Aha! My keen investigative mind leads me to believe your ex filed charges of domestic abuse or requested a protective order against you. You may not have been convicted (or even prosecuted) for anything, but you have an arrest record for those charges and the Fibbies will need to determine the outcome of the charges before they release the gun.

As to the dealer keeping your money, I don't have a problem with that as long as the dealer informed you that this would happen if your approval was delayed. Otherwise, he should not have accepted payment until you were approved, or should return your money when you demanded it.

Dr. Strangelove
December 5, 2010, 12:50 PM
1.) I would not buy the gun from this store for any reason after all of this.

2.) You're being jacked around, you need to return to the store, and politely but firmly tell them you are here for your money back.

Did you pay with a credit or debit card? If so, your bank or card issuer can charge the store back.

I've had two issues with this type thing. Once, in a gun store, I purchased $53.65 worth of bullets or powder, or whatever. I just happened to check the receipt on my way home, it was for $536.50! I turned around and went back to the store, initially they said I had to "wait for (some name I don't remember)". I was polite and firm, but told them I wasn't doing any such thing and someone needed to get started figuring this out. Then I called my bank, as soon as the store folks saw that, things changed magically.

The second was a item I ordered, was delivered defective, and I returned. The vendor was giving me a huge amount of static about the refund. After about a month, I finally just told them they had one week to return my money or they could deal with my bank, (to whom I had already spoken) again; magically, the refund appeared the next day.

If you did pay cash, and the firm but polite route doesn't work out, I'd just inform them your next two stops will be the police station and the Better Business Bureau.

I pay for any large purchases with card, so that I'm protected in cases like this.

curt.45
December 8, 2010, 12:04 AM
ITS TUESDAY NIGHT ANS STILL NOTHING, HOPE HE DIDN'T GET BUSTED.


grrrrr caps lock.

RimfireChris
December 8, 2010, 02:24 AM
I think at least as big an issue is the fact that the store won't return his money. Unless they told him he'd lose the money if the sale was denied, I can't see how they can deny him his money back if he wants to cancel the sale. I know laws vary from place to place, but it seems pretty basic that when you but something, you don't get it till you pay, and the store doesn't get your money till they give you the product.

The fact that the OP says they told him that paying up front was "standard procedure" sounds like they saw an newbie and decided to take advantage of him. Pretty sad, especially with the economy the way it is and all. If this isn't resolved, I hope he has a talk with the BBB.

riggins_83
December 8, 2010, 02:28 AM
I've never seen a store that will accept the money before the background check completes either. In fact when customers try to pay me that way I flat out refuse... tell them we won't take a penny until the background check is complete.

BILLtheDJguy
December 8, 2010, 06:56 AM
This whole story sounds BOGUS, to me......

First, He's all up in arms, (no pun intended) and then a few minutes later he asks, "what do you think about the gun I didn't get? (para-phrased)....

sixgun67
December 8, 2010, 07:09 AM
ITS TUESDAY NIGHT ANS STILL NOTHING, HOPE HE DIDN'T GET BUSTED.





Or, maybe he got the gun and is to busy blasting ammo to come back here?
sixgun

Double Naught Spy
December 8, 2010, 08:20 AM
This whole story sounds BOGUS, to me......

Yep, in post #6, he notes his dealings with family court, restraining orders, and arrest information, but doesn't know if he has a right to get his money back and given all of his legal connections, doesn't seem to know what to do.

I've never seen a store that will accept the money before the background check completes either. In fact when customers try to pay me that way I flat out refuse... tell them we won't take a penny until the background check is complete.

Paperwork for refunds can be a bookkeeping pain...just easier to not accept the money until the customer is cleared than to deal with the issues of a refunded sale. In some stores, refunds have to be approved or handled by mgmt, especially if they are more $X (which gun sales would be).

H1N1
December 8, 2010, 09:04 AM
I am not sure why anyone would think I am telling a bogus story because I asked what your opinion of the gun was, but hey, we all try to find fault where we can...

Anyway, here is the latest:

I went back to the Gun Dealer on Monday with my friend who was there with me when they promised me the gun would be mine if the FBI did not respond in 3 days.

The gun dealer said in no uncertain terms " You are not getting your gun, or your money back, until we hear something from the FBI".

When I complained that this went directly against what he originally told me, he handed me a business card and stated "take me to court, if you do not like it".

The dealer seemed very comfortable with saying those words and I am certain it is not the first time he has done it.

I have the whole conversation on audio recording. Apparently, there is nothing that I can do about it. It seems that as long as the FBI does not give him an answer, the ALL SALES ARE FINAL, is enough to allow him to keep my money, and the gun, UNTIL the FBI responds.

That is assuming that the FBI even responds...

The gun dealer is in Islip, NY and is called Long Island Shooting.

Sean

H1N1
December 8, 2010, 09:12 AM
There are many posts that are stating things like "he does not seem to know what to do", and issues with "restraining orders" and what not.

I have been very forthright with everyone here and yes, I do not know what to do. This is my first attempt at a gun purchase. I am not experienced with this process. That is why I turned to his forum for help.

As far as the restraining orders, if there has ever been anyone here who has been falsely accused, arrested, or incarcerated due to bogus reports by an ex wife, you will immediately understand what I am referring to.

Again, I have NEVER been convicted of Domestic Violence.

I have never been convicted of a felony.

There are no restraining orders against me.

Guys, and gals, believe what you want, I came here for your advice and as a man, I am giving my word that this is the truth.

Unfortunately, that is all I can do. If you choose not to believe what I am saying, and instead if offering helpful advice, you wish to they to find a read on to discredit what I am saying, then that is your choice.

I can only tell you what is happening and as a novice, I agree with the posting, that I do not know what to do.

Sean

BILLtheDJguy
December 8, 2010, 09:12 AM
I'm just telling you what it sounds like...I don't know if you get your kicks from stirring up the hornet's nest, or not.
You may be telling the unadulterated truth, i don't know.
YOU came on here, with your story, looking for opinions, and you got them.
If you want to prove something, post a copy of your receipt. I know you got a receipt when you handed over 500 dollars for a 300 dollar gun and didn't get the gun....Didn't you?

H1N1
December 8, 2010, 09:16 AM
That is easy enough. I will be happy to post the receipt. Give me 10 minutes to figure to scan it and upload and that will settle that.

Great idea.

Sean

H1N1
December 8, 2010, 09:30 AM
Here are the receipts. I am sure that you will consider the fact that maybe I was telling the truth all along.

AH.74
December 8, 2010, 09:38 AM
Sean- block out your DL# as well. Take the images down and redo them.

Call the state Attorney General and outline the story. Ask them if the dealer is acting illegally in not returning your money. I think they are and it is BS.

The FBI should have issued a DENY by now if they are going to. As they also should have had enough time to issue the PROCEED.

Something seems wrong.

I would also consider calling the FBI directly. See what they have to say about the long delay and the dealer saying the funds are tied to what the FBI says.

I would also call the dealer back and ask them if they plan to release your funds if in fact you get denied. Have that info if possible before making the other calls.

Good for you on outing a dealer who takes money before they should.

BILLtheDJguy
December 8, 2010, 09:43 AM
http://www.bbb.org/new-york-city/business-reviews/gun-dealers/long-island-shooting-center-ltd-in-islip-ny-82915/#cmpl

Here is their BBB, New York, listing...

They are NOT accredited. They have a several complaints in the last 2 years, but it seems all were resolved.

I'll check with the DBPR or similar entity...

BILLtheDJguy
December 8, 2010, 10:09 AM
Here's and interesting read but nothing really bad...

http://longislandfirearms.com/forum/m-1250202553/s-0/

BILLtheDJguy
December 8, 2010, 10:15 AM
Some more people not happy...

http://www.yellowpages.com/islip-ny/mip/long-island-shooting-ctr-ltd-9121646/reviews?lid=9121646#tabs

Spats McGee
December 8, 2010, 10:19 AM
. . . .It seems that as long as the FBI does not give him an answer, the ALL SALES ARE FINAL, is enough to allow him to keep my money, and the gun, UNTIL the FBI responds. . . . .
(emphasis mine) Says who? As far as I can see, there hasn't been a sale. The store has both your money and the merchandise. I don't think that's a sale.

BILLtheDJguy
December 8, 2010, 10:27 AM
I'm not finding anything illegal being reported....

I have to agree with AH.74.

Get in touch with the agency that handles background checks for your state.
Explain everything to them and ask for a recommendation for expediency.
See if there is anything you can do to facilitate the process.

And do get the information he talked about, before you call.

Have your ducks in a row, and be firm and concise, but respectful. Remember, those people have a tough job and don't need a bunch of crap. And, the one you talk to, isn't the one holding you up...
You get more flies with honey, than with vinegar...

Good luck, and let us know how it works out.

snipecatcher
December 8, 2010, 10:34 AM
When I worked at a place selling guns, we had delays all of the time. Yes, the FBI has 3 days to tell you if you are approved, delayed or denied, BUT they have already done that, you are delayed. Sometimes the delays would last over a month. There is nothing you or the dealer can do to find out more. If you are DENIED, you can call the FBI and request why, but not for a delay. I wouldn't ask for a refund. Wherever you go to re-purchase the gun, you will be put through the same delay. This may happen every time you purchase a gun. I agree, the store should not have taken your money before you were approved. If I were in the situation, I would just let the process go through, and never do business with this place again.
-Dan

deathrider
December 8, 2010, 10:43 AM
I figured I would chime in, around here dealers ask for $2 for the background check, before they do the sale.

only way I have seen them accepting payment first was in case of a layaway, where it took a couple months to pay for, & I dont know of anyone personally having problems around here, but I would hope if they did pay & it didn't go through they would get a refund.

Randy

divil
December 8, 2010, 11:13 AM
H1N1, while it might be somewhat pragmatic to call the background check agency and try to get things sorted that way, if I were in your position I would be looking for my money back plus compensation for being out of pocket so long. As you can see from the other posts, for a dealer to take your money up front is practically unheard of. The FBI website (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics) even says so:

Before ringing up the sale, cashiers call in a check to the FBI

Yes, the FBI has 3 days to tell you if you are approved, delayed or denied, BUT they have already done that, you are delayed. Sometimes the delays would last over a month

I don't think that's correct snipecatcher:

(from the same FBI link above)
If the search is matched to any potentially prohibiting records, the NICS Section must reach out to judicial and/or law enforcement agencies for the information needed to render a final decision. The Brady Act allows three business days for this purpose. If the information is not obtained within the three-business-day time frame and a final decision of proceed or deny is not made, the FFL has the option to legally transfer the firearm.

Based on that, they must either response with proceed or deny within 3 days - but bear in mind, the dealer doesn't have to transfer the firearm if he doesn't want to. (Of course, if he doesn't, he has no right to take/keep your money)

There is even more detail about the procedure here:http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/fact-sheet

Having said all that, that is just the Federal law. Your state may have it's own more restrictive laws that prevent the transfer of the gun while you're on delay - but the FBI do not block it for more than 3 days, that's for sure.

IMO, standing up for your rights is more important that getting hold of the gun. There must be plenty of other dealers who can sell you the same gun, and even if they don't have as good a deal, it's worth it, because the majority of them won't treat you like this.

H1N1
December 8, 2010, 11:53 AM
Hi,

Thanks for the heads up on the DL number but I do not know how to remove the images. I will contact the administrator and ask him to delete the post.

Thanks, again.

Sean

hogdogs
December 8, 2010, 01:42 PM
Here is where I would be standing on this right now if it were me...

I am the one who asked if the dealer violated atf regs by taking the money...

So if the pain in the neck of "un transferring" a weapon is the reason, that would mean the TRANSFER IS COMPLETE in the eyes of the the ATF agent that could walk in the door and ask to see the books right now...

If the transfer has not been completed in the transfer log... they have stolen your money...

I would call the local ATF office and local presiding law enforcement to meet there RIGHT NOW!!! I would walk in with both and have the ATF agent look in the log... if your name is there... you get the gun or they get busted with firearm theft...

If your name ain't in the book, the LEO can arrest them for GRAND THEFT (Florida says grand theft is $300.00) they can't handle guns with a felony...

Personally, I would want my money so I could buy online or elsewhere that you ain't payin' more than needed...

I am real close to callin' them and tellin' them what is goin' on regarding their reputation but refraining so as not to rock your proverbial boat...

Brent

H1N1
December 8, 2010, 03:23 PM
I wanted to take the time to thank everyone for being so helpful. I have made some big mistakes in this whole process due to the fact that I was excited about my first weapon and I WRONGLY assumed that someone dealing with something as regulated as firearms would automatically be on the up and up.

While I acknowledge that I am an ass for not doing my homework BEFORE hand in regards to the dealer and his sales history, I still do not think that is warrants the actions that they have taken.

I now see this as simply being a catch 22. I can attempt to file suit and seek compensation but I can almost guarantee that by the time this ever gets heard in a small claims court, they will either give me my money back or the weapon.

Either way, I am forced to take action to ensure that this practice will not be used on future idiots like myself who do not take the time to investigate.

Thanks again,

I will keep this thread updated.

Sean

scottl
December 8, 2010, 04:22 PM
H1N1,
http://www.atf.gov/field/newyork/

Contact those guys or local PD.Paying for merchandise,not recieving it and not getting refund may be considered theft by deception.

snipecatcher
December 8, 2010, 06:34 PM
Quote:
Yes, the FBI has 3 days to tell you if you are approved, delayed or denied, BUT they have already done that, you are delayed. Sometimes the delays would last over a month
I don't think that's correct snipecatcher:

(from the same FBI link above)
Quote:
If the search is matched to any potentially prohibiting records, the NICS Section must reach out to judicial and/or law enforcement agencies for the information needed to render a final decision. The Brady Act allows three business days for this purpose. If the information is not obtained within the three-business-day time frame and a final decision of proceed or deny is not made, the FFL has the option to legally transfer the firearm.
Based on that, they must either response with proceed or deny within 3 days - but bear in mind, the dealer doesn't have to transfer the firearm if he doesn't want to. (Of course, if he doesn't, he has no right to take/keep your money)


Divil, you are correct. Now that I think about it, it was STORE POLICY that we could not sell a gun unless we heard back from NICS. State and federal law allowed a purchase after 3 days, but the store didn't want to take any chances on selling a gun to somebody who shouldn't have one, even though it would have been legal to go through with the sale. Thanks for clearing that up.
-Dan

olddav
December 8, 2010, 07:01 PM
N1H1,
Call his bluff! A sale requires that money and merchandise exchange hands. If one or the other is not completed, it is not a sale. If you conveyed the facts accurately then I would file suit tomorrow! Good Luck!:mad:

RLWII
December 8, 2010, 09:13 PM
OldDav
I see you are in Lower Alabama also. A couple of days back, I made my first purchase from one of the local shops and their practice is to take money first then do the background phone call. I was dealing with a clerk, not the owner, and I questioned her about this since I had been reading this tread prior. She said that is how they have always done transactions this way. I did express my feelings about this, but since they were the only shop around that had what I had been looking for and I have never been turned down before, I did the deal. However, I don't think I made any new friends and I will not buy from them again.

Aguila Blanca
December 8, 2010, 09:32 PM
H1N1 --

Call the police in the FFL's city and file a criminal complaint that he has defrauded you of $500. Also file a written complaint with the BATFE and the state police.

"All sales final" is valid only if there has been a sale. He has your money. You do not have a firearm. The transaction has not been completed and therefore cannot be considered final. He owes you a gun, or $500.

He's a crook. Cuffing crooks is what the police do. call them.

pbratton
December 8, 2010, 09:50 PM
The police will not be interested in this, it's a civil case.

Look into small claims court, it may be the easiest and cheapest route.

pichon
December 9, 2010, 02:31 AM
The police will not be interested in this, it's a civil case.

You are obviously not a lawyer. If I hit you with my car and you sue me for damages it is a civil case. The police still come and take the report.

If you come to my yard sale and give me money to buy my couch, but I take the money and have my kids haul the couch back into the garage, I stole your money. You can file a civil suit against me, but I still committed a crime, it is called theft.

Jbar4Ranch
December 9, 2010, 09:08 AM
He won't give you the gun or your money til NICS calls back? Sometimes NICS never calls back. I void my 4473's after 29 days if we don't hear back, and the customer has to fill out a new one. Money can be taken in before the background check is completed, but the actual transfer of the firearm can't take place until NICS gives their blessing. This takes place all the time with online transactions - you win a gunbroker auction, send the seller a money order, and he sends the firearm to your local dealer, where you fill out a 4473. If you are denied or delayed at your local dealer, well good luck getting your money back from the original seller, as he no longer has or legally owns the gun and sure as hell isn't going to forfeit both the money AND the gun. The gun has been transferred to your local FFL and now legally belongs to him. Even though you paid Dealer One for the gun, his bound book reflects that it was sold to Dealer Two, not Citizen Three. This is a different situation, of course, as the gun isn't being transferred to another dealer. If the dealer were to give you your money back, then got a proceed from NICS, and you changed your mind on the purchase, all he would have to do is void the form and put both forms in a "non transferred" file beside the rest of his 4473's. He's just trying to ensure that you do indeed purchase the gun from him, instead of someone else, but the legality of his actions seems to be somewhat questionable.

pbratton
December 9, 2010, 09:58 AM
Quote:
The police will not be interested in this, it's a civil case.

You are obviously not a lawyer. If I hit you with my car and you sue me for damages it is a civil case. The police still come and take the report.

If you come to my yard sale and give me money to buy my couch, but I take the money and have my kids haul the couch back into the garage, I stole your money. You can file a civil suit against me, but I still committed a crime, it is called theft.

Again, the Police will not pursuit this as a case, they come and write a report on anything if you insist. Nothing 'criminal' has happened here yet.

Now, if three or four other folks come forward with the same un-resolved issue, then the Police may become interested in investigating.


If the delay was from the NICS check, after 3 business days, it is either changed to denied, approved or open. If it is changed to an open status, then the dealer has the honor of making the transfer decision himself, based on local laws...

The open status will remain on file in the NICS report for 30 days then dropped off the list. Unless the FBI makes a change to the status within the 30 day period. If this occurs, and the dealer has transferred the firearm, then I would guess that both the dealer and the purchaser could expect a visit.

Ask the dealer for a copy of the 4473 form you filled out and it should contain the NTN number he received from the FBI. Contact the FBI NICS center and see what they can tell you about the status and what that means as far as the transfer of the firearm to you.

Constantine
December 9, 2010, 11:54 AM
wow, just indulged myself in the reviews..CLEARLY the positive comments were written by him and his buddies. What a low class dog. lol (don't think I can cuss here) Well...that's a tough one, I'd call the local police...I know I've read the comment on "they won't be interested" but they can still be the best ones to point you in the right direction.

That place NEEDS to be put out of business or something...That's just wrong how they are and the world doesn't need people like them. Especially honest and good hearted gun owners.

pax
December 9, 2010, 12:29 PM
Seems to me that you don't know if the cops would be interested in the case or not until you call them. People online can speculate until the screen turns blue, but only a call to the local police will tell you whether or not the local police would be interested in cuffing the shop owner for this.

How else would you know if other people have come forward with similar stories, or if there's already an ongoing investigation into this guy's business practices?

pax

CPTMurdoc30
December 9, 2010, 02:39 PM
Call the dang cops.

I would ask that the police meet me there to handle the matter. He has no right to keep your money from you. You gave him money for a good and you have not received the good you can get your money back. If you show up with 2 or 3 cops behind you and I am sure hit attitude will change.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/fact-sheet

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/appeals/nics_appeals_brochure_eng

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/appeals/nics_vaf_brochure_eng.pdf

jmr40
December 9, 2010, 02:58 PM
I'd have had my cellphone out dialing 911 in the store as soon as he said "SUE ME".

raftman
December 9, 2010, 03:12 PM
I'd have had my cellphone out dialing 911 in the store as soon as he said "SUE ME".

I dunno about 911, probably better to do the non-emergency number for the police department.

I suspect the store employee is an idiot and doesn't understand the meaning of delayed, and thus thinks maybe because the would-be buyer is a criminal, that entitles him to keep the money.

shortwave
December 9, 2010, 07:31 PM
Someone posted about calling the Attorney Generals office.

I would do just that. They will tell you if any laws have been broken(or not) and would be very interested if they have.

If laws have been broken, you won't have to call the local LEO, FBI, KGB or anyone else. AG's office will handle that for you , especially where guns are involved.

Even if the gun dealer is operating in a somewhat gray area rather than using outright illegal business tactics, a call to that business from the AG's office usually gets some response's. ;)

dogtown tom
December 9, 2010, 09:51 PM
Doyle:...It isn't the FBI that is doing the hold. Each state runs its own check system.
Not true. The FBI NICS does the majority of Brady background checks. See the participation map here:http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/participation-map

hogdogs: Didn't the Gun Dealer VIOLATE FEDERAL LAW by SELLING a gun to a person that hasn't yet passed a BACK GROUND check?
No Federal law was broken as the firearm has not been transferred. There is a difference between purchasing and possession.

k in AR: ...Every firearm dealer I have done business with here in Arkansas would never take a penny until you are approved. They might call the police if you came back a felon...
Would never happen, as the FBI does not inform the dealer of the reason for the denial.

medic15al:...The issue is the theft of $500.
The OP gave the $$$ to the seller...it is not theft. You fail tv law 101, you need to watch more Law and Order reruns.:D


Steam Boat: ...Well, when I go to purchase a firearm from a gun shop or dealer, they don't get my cash until after the background check. Once in a while it has taken a day or two. But no cash from me until the background check has cleared.
It is not unusual for dealers (particularly at gunshows) to take payment before contacting NICS. Here in Dallas a couple of dealers have a posted policy on NICS denials: If "denied" you may cancel your purchase but they will keep $25. This helps keep out those who would test the system and tie up sales staff. If a transaction comes back as denied the dealer still has to keep those 4473's and still has to record those transactions in his books.


BILLtheDJguy:...Here is their BBB, New York, listing...They are NOT accredited. They have a several complaints in the last 2 years, but it seems all were resolved.
Means nothing. Businesses must pay to join the BBB and must pay extra for "accreditation". The BBB is worthless and striving to become more irrelevant every day.

snipecatcher: When I worked at a place selling guns, we had delays all of the time. Yes, the FBI has 3 days to tell you if you are approved, delayed or denied,
No, the dealer finds out the result of that transaction immediately...that why NICS is the National Instant Criminal background System. If the initial NICS status is "delayed" the dealer is prohibited from transferring the gun until three business days have elapsed. FBI NICS will tell the dealer "the Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of this firearm on __(date)___"

snipecatcher: ....If you are DENIED, you can call the FBI and request why...Nope. The NICS appeal process says specifically that requests for information must be in writing (mail, fax or email). NICS will not give any info regarding the denial over the phone to the dealer or customer.


hogdogs ...I am the one who asked if the dealer violated atf regs by taking the money...
There is no such prohibition. I transfer dozens of "paid for" guns every week.


hogdogsSo if the pain in the neck of "un transferring" a weapon is the reason, that would mean the TRANSFER IS COMPLETE in the eyes of the the ATF agent that could walk in the door and ask to see the books right now...
No. the transfer is not complete until the customer gets either a "proceed" or the dealer hands him the gun after the three day period has expired. I don't understand why you think the ATF agent will catch something amiss....the dealer must keep that 4473 for twenty years if the gun is transferred, five years if it is a denied transaction. The dealer cannot just tear it up because he wants to.

hogdogs...If the transfer has not been completed in the transfer log... they have stolen your money...
Hogwash. The transfer CANNOT take place unless NICS returns a "proceed" or the dealer decides to hand over the firearm after the three day dalay has expired. The disposition of a firearm is not entered on the 4473 and in the dealers bound book until the firearm is actually transferred to the customer.

hogdogs:...I would call the local ATF office and local presiding law enforcement to meet there RIGHT NOW!!! I would walk in with both and have the ATF agent look in the log... if your name is there... you get the gun or they get busted with firearm theft...
As the firearm has not been transferred to the customer (due to the NICS delayed status) the customers name better NOT be in the dealers bound book. Once the dealers does hand the gun to the customer he will subsequently record the firearm as a disbursal to that customer.


hogdogs:...If your name ain't in the book, the LEO can arrest them for GRAND THEFT (Florida says grand theft is $300.00) they can't handle guns with a felony...
Uh......nope. If the dealer holds the firearm and refuses to refund the buyers $$$ it's a civil matter. If you forget to pay the paperboy for this months newspaper.........do you think he's going to file theft charges? :rolleyes:

Oldfalguy
December 9, 2010, 10:38 PM
On this board we can not know exactly what is going on here or why you were denied. If its a problem onthe NICS end you need to get that cleared up FIRST or your toast in court anyway as it give the dealer a legitimate out.
But once NICS is cleared up and you have some written evidence this is done you can contact the AG, police whomever you want to - Listen to what they tell you. but shortly thereafter you should sue him.
File on him in small claims, but he can easily appeal or county court-
Hire a lawyer to drive him nuts- Give him 30-40% contingency fee.
If you have YOUR facts straight as an arrow and the NICS end cleared up and the lawyer puts a demand letter on him and it is ignored then he is facing much greater damage claim (which helps pay the contingency fees)
At least one claim should be for simple unjust enrichment-
You gave him dinero in exchange for an item-
Him keeping both is enriching himself- benefitting him to your detriment-
Next claim is detrimental reliance and so on-
Last but not least is your state's version of deceptive trade violations- usually a laundry list of things you will have to pick through.

pichon
December 10, 2010, 12:26 AM
Uh......nope. If the dealer holds the firearm and refuses to refund the buyers $$$ it's a civil matter. If you forget to pay the paperboy for this months newspaper.........do you think he's going to file theft charges?

Apples and oranges. :rolleyes:

It is a very different situation here. If you go and pump a gas tank full of fuel and drive away without paying for it, expect a visit from the police, whether you made an honest mistake and just forgot to pay for it or stole it.

This FFL is not a paperboy and this is not a matter of , "Ohh I forgot to give your money back". The FFL is deliberately choosing to act the way he is. I am not saying this is grand theft necessarily, I am just saying that there is an error in your analogy.

raftman
December 10, 2010, 01:42 AM
Uh......nope. If the dealer holds the firearm and refuses to refund the buyers $$$ it's a civil matter. If you forget to pay the paperboy for this months newspaper.........do you think he's going to file theft charges?

Dunno if that's a very apt comparison. The way I see it, it's more like this. You decide to go to the liquor store and buy a keg of beer. Let's say due to laziness, your driver's license is out from out of state and recently expired, and let's say you're fairly young, something like 23, so old enough to buy beer but not old enough to where the clerk can say for sure by looking at you. You fork over the money and then the clerk asks to see I.D. If they're not comfortable giving you the keg with your expired, out-of-state ID, that doesn't mean they just get to keep your money, now does it?

MLeake
December 10, 2010, 07:07 AM
... if they can't keep the money, but still do, then that could be considered theft at the point they refuse to return the money.

Whether criminal charges would be filed would then be up to the DA.

dogtown tom
December 10, 2010, 10:39 AM
pichon Quote:
Uh......nope. If the dealer holds the firearm and refuses to refund the buyers $$$ it's a civil matter. If you forget to pay the paperboy for this months newspaper.........do you think he's going to file theft charges? Apples and oranges.

It is a very different situation here. If you go and pump a gas tank full of fuel and drive away without paying for it, expect a visit from the police, whether you made an honest mistake and just forgot to pay for it or stole it.
Neither the gun dealer or homeowner have committed theft. There is a legal definition of theft and neither instance meets that definition.

You say it's a very different situation and then throw out an example of someone stealing gasoline?:rolleyes: My examples were of cases that were not theft but would be actionabble under civil law. Stealing gas is clearly actionable under criminal law.

This FFL is not a paperboy and this is not a matter of , "Ohh I forgot to give your money back". The FFL is deliberately choosing to act the way he is. I am not saying this is grand theft necessarily, I am just saying that there is an error in your analogy.
Reread.
Reread again.
No where did I say that an FFL is a paperboy or that the two situations were similiar.........my paperboy example is to show that there are other business transactions that are not criminal in nature, but civil.


raftman:...Dunno if that's a very apt comparison. The way I see it, it's more like this. You decide to go to the liquor store and buy a keg of beer. Let's say due to laziness, your driver's license is out from out of state and recently expired, and let's say you're fairly young, something like 23, so old enough to buy beer but not old enough to where the clerk can say for sure by looking at you. You fork over the money and then the clerk asks to see I.D. If they're not comfortable giving you the keg with your expired, out-of-state ID, that doesn't mean they just get to keep your money, now does it?
Again, there was no "comparison", it was an example of civil matters that are not criminal matters.

Unbelievable.

pichon
December 10, 2010, 03:18 PM
This has gotten way off topic but you say:

You say it's a very different situation and then throw out an example of someone stealing gasoline?

And then,

Reread.
Reread again.

Yet you ignored the fact that I said you didn't necessarily steal the gas, you conceivably just forgot to pay for it. :rolleyes: Is it theft if you just forgot?

Is it theft if you take someones money for something and don't give it to them? Possibly. What if you prepay for the gas and when you go to pump it you find out that there is no gas in the pump but the owner refuses to refund your money? Is that theft?

Sure, you can sue anyone for failing to hold up their end of the bargain, but taking someones money without some sort of exchange of goods or services when that was the agreement is wrong and you should involve the police. It COULD be theft.

Do I think this will land the owner in jail? No. Do I think he will lose his license? No. Do I think that when the police are called and the willingness of the OP to make this a legal matter is exhibited, that this situation will magically resolve itself? Probably. No shop owner wants police officers coming into their shop during business hours and asking questions. It is not great for business.

My whole point with the above mentioned scenario is to ask, what would you do if someone takes something and doesn't pay for it, or in the op's situation, keeps your money and doesn't exchange the goods in a reasonable manner? I would call the police.

By the way, civil and criminal charges aren't mutually exclusive. Both can be filed in many cases. This case it is a bit fuzzy, so call the police.

Aguila Blanca
December 10, 2010, 04:56 PM
Dogtown -

The FFL has taken money for the purpose of selling a firearm. He can now legally complete the sale, but he refuses to do so AND he refuses to return the money on the spurious grounds that "All sales are final." But, since the customer hasn't walked out the door with any merchandise, no sale has been transacted.

The FFL has committed theft by fraud. This is a criminal matter, not a civil matter.

pbratton
December 10, 2010, 06:32 PM
Oh Boy...

Let's say that as a dealer, I run a NICS check on a Customer who wishes to purchase a firearm. The NICS check comes back as 'Delayed'. As the Dealer, I know that the FBI has three BUSINESS days to give me a final result of the NICS check. I inform the Customer to contact me on X day to see what the final NICS determination is going to be.

After three business days I, as the Dealer, receive an updated status of 'Open' for this transaction.

At this point, as the Dealer, I have the decision on this transaction placed in my lap. I can either transfer the firearm to the Customer, deny the transfer to the Customer and refund any money owed after restocking fee, transaction fee, B.S. fee, etc.

Now, again, as the Dealer, I know that with ANY 'Delayed' transaction, after Three business days, if no decision is made by the FBI, the transaction reverts to 'Open' status. This 'Open' status remains 'Open' for 30 days and is subject to being updated during that time.

So, if I, as the Dealer, transfer the firearm and in 24 days, the status changes to 'Denied', we have a problem.

So, perhaps the Dealer is waiting on the 30 day window to close before transferring the firearm.

Still, no criminal act has occurred here yet. This is still a Civil issue.

I'd ask for an audience with the License Holder to get an explanation of what his intentions are. (and this HAS to be an adult conversation, not a shouting match...)

This will get you a map to your next steps.

raftman
December 10, 2010, 07:43 PM
Again, there was no "comparison", it was an example of civil matters that are not criminal matters.

Unbelievable.


If it's not analogous, then it's irrelevant. Why even bring it up at all? Simply to prove that "civil matters" exist between a business and a private individual? Are there people that don't know that?

Also, talking down to people doesn't do much to disguise backpedaling.

How about another example, say you arranged to buy a gun from another member of a forum that's local to you. You meet up, but he decides there's something a little shady about you, say you've got some interesting tattoos and that makes the guy think you've done some time in the big house, even though you haven't. He as the ability to walk away from the sale with his gun if he's not comfortable with the transaction, but would you really not call the police if he walks off with both the gun and your money?

dogtown tom
December 10, 2010, 08:54 PM
pichon ...Yet you ignored the fact that I said you didn't necessarily steal the gas, you conceivably just forgot to pay for it. Is it theft if you just forgot?
I purposely ignored your example because it doesn't remotely have anything to do with the OP's situation. Is "forgetting" to pay for gas after you pumped a crime? C'mon. Try it and see if you get charged.

Aguila Blanca Dogtown -

The FFL has taken money for the purpose of selling a firearm. He can now legally complete the sale, but he refuses to do so AND he refuses to return the money on the spurious grounds that "All sales are final." But, since the customer hasn't walked out the door with any merchandise, no sale has been transacted.

The FFL has committed theft by fraud. This is a criminal matter, not a civil matter.
Really? Then let's find out if the local PD will arrest the dealer and if the DA will file charges.

No one doubts that the dealer COULD legally transfer the firearm, but Federal law says that is his option. He is not required to do so. If he refuses to return the customers payment after a reasonable time then the OP should take him to court. No one is disputing that the dealer is not entitled to keep both gun and $$$$, but lets give him and the FBI NICS a reasonable time before calling for the SWAT team to take out the dealer.

NO ONE knows the whole story......how long has the dealer had the gun before the OP posted? One week? Two? Six months? There is a lot of information that's been left out, yet many here are screaming for the dealers arrest.


raftman:....Simply to prove that "civil matters" exist between a business and a private individual? Are there people that don't know that?
Apparently so.

Also, talking down to people doesn't do much to disguise backpedaling. Backpedaling? What the heck are you talking about?:rolleyes:

raftman:...How about another example, say you arranged to buy a gun from another member of a forum that's local to you. You meet up, but he decides there's something a little shady about you, say you've got some interesting tattoos and that makes the guy think you've done some time in the big house, even though you haven't. He as the ability to walk away from the sale with his gun if he's not comfortable with the transaction, but would you really not call the police if he walks off with both the gun and your money?
I'll play...
Sure I would call the police.

But this is a FTF transaction and neither party is a holder of a Federal Firearms License. No FBI NICS check or 4473 applies as the seller is not a licensed dealer. There is no business relationship or contract between buyer and seller.

Unlike your FTF transaction above, the sale of a firearm from a licensed dealer is conditional on the customer completing the 4473 and clearing NICS.

Rightly or wrongly the gun store seems to have had a policy of "no gun until you get a proceed" as well as a policy of "no refunds on firearms purchases". Neither policy is uncommon in many gunstores. If those policies are posted the OP has no one to blame but himself. He'll simply have to wait until the FBI NICS returns a "proceed" for his transaction.

If those policies are not posted, then the OP has a much easier time convincing a court that he is due his gun or his $$$. "Store policies" that are invisible to the customer are worthless.

But heck, let the OP call the cops. Or better yet just go down to the local PD and file on the dealer. See where it goes. It may encourage the dealer to do the right thing and hand over the gun or the money..........but I guarantee that this would never make it to trial as a criminal case AS IT STANDS TODAY.

After a REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME......(IMHO thirty days) if the dealer has refused to hand over the firearm then I would definitely file on him for conversion.

pbratton
December 10, 2010, 08:58 PM
I'd really like to hear back from the OP to see where this is today.

pichon
December 10, 2010, 09:21 PM
I for one am not calling for anyones arrest, just police involvement and court admissible documentation of what is going on here. And now that YOU mention it, at what point does criminal conversion begin in your ever so humble opinion? You are obviously an attorney, so we would all love to know what constitutes conversion and what does not. You have my money, I don't have my firearm, and you wont tell me when I will get one or the other, despite the fact that I have asked for my money back. It seems clear to me, you are controlling my personal property against my will.

I am not familiar with NY law but H1N1 should look into it.

Out of curiosity, how do you know H1N1 signed anything agreeing to a no refund policy? No signature, no agreement. Law trumps store policy.

Most importantly in all situations, do your homework before doing business; caveat emptor. This guy is obviously shady, the reviews point that out.

dogtown tom
December 10, 2010, 11:02 PM
pichon:...And now that YOU mention it, at what point does criminal conversion begin in your ever so humble opinion?
My humble opinion wouldn't matter, state law would dictate that. Look it up yourself.

You are obviously an attorney
Nope. I'm a teacher and a gun dealer. I DID get an "A" in Business Law back in college.:D


so we would all love to know what constitutes conversion and what does not.
http://law.yourdictionary.com/conversion

Out of curiosity, how do you know H1N1 signed anything agreeing to a no refund policy? No signature, no agreement. Law trumps store policy.
Reread my post, I never said or insinuated that the OP signed anything. You just invented that on your own. And a signature is not required to agree to store policy. Ever go to WalMart or Target? They post their return policies for everyone to see. They don't need your signature to signal your approval, you do that when you give them your $$$. And.....if you had bothered to read my post you would have read that store policies that are "invisible" (unposted) would not be of any help to the store if this goes to court.

Dustin0
December 10, 2010, 11:24 PM
Ok I guess I wil have to put my 2 cents in. I work at a local gun store and we do take the money before the back ground check is done. Its SOP with that said your 3 days that you can be delayed are up. You should have been Denied or have your gun by now. Either way If NY uses NICS background check ask the Dealer for the NTN and call NICS. They can tell you where the hold up is. You may want to apply for a UPIN also to that this delay does not happen again. If want to know more PM me i will tell you what I know and try to help.

curt.45
December 13, 2010, 03:38 PM
H1N1, anything new yet?

Double Naught Spy
December 13, 2010, 05:43 PM
Yet you ignored the fact that I said you didn't necessarily steal the gas, you conceivably just forgot to pay for it. Is it theft if you just forgot?

Is "forgetting" to pay for gas after you pumped a crime? C'mon. Try it and see if you get charged.

Ah yes, the old Steve Martin Excuse!!!! It does sound funny because it is so stupid...
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/77/77imono.phtml

You.. can be a millionaire.. and never pay taxes! You can be a millionaire.. and never pay taxes! You say.. "Steve.. how can I be a millionaire.. and never pay taxes?" First.. get a million dollars. Now.. you say, "Steve.. what do I say to the tax man when he comes to my door and says, 'You.. have never paid taxes'?" Two simple words. Two simple words in the English language: "I forgot!" How many times do we let ourselves get into terrible situations because we don't say "I forgot"? Let's say you're on trial for armed robbery. You say to the judge, "I forgot armed robbery was illegal." Let's suppose he says back to you, "You have committed a foul crime. you have stolen hundreds and thousands of dollars from people at random, and you say, 'I forgot'?" Two simple words: Excuuuuuse me!!"

Yep, that sounds like fine legal advice. :rolleyes:

Taking property without the owner's consent would be theft, sure enough. The claim of forgetting is a claim of non-intent, but few believe such claims.

H1N1
December 13, 2010, 06:06 PM
I did not want to keep posting information until I knew what the bottom line was. Well, after day after day of calling the gun dealer, I was told today that I can go in Friday and get a check.

I asked if this meant that I was denied by the FBI and they told me that they did not say that. I then asked if I would be denied from another dealer and they told me that they did not say that either.

I then asks them why I had to wait 3 weeks for them to give me a vague answer and a check for a gun that I paid cash for...

The response?

You can come in Friday and get your check.

Now let's see if there will be any more games on Friday.

I will re-post on Friday and update what transpired.

Spats McGee
December 13, 2010, 08:15 PM
Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.

AH.74
December 13, 2010, 10:46 PM
These people sound like incredible jerks.That is no way to treat a customer and no way to do honest business, regardless of the transfer situation.

If it is their policy not to transfer without a clear proceed, that is one thing. But to be unclear with no explanation is ridiculous.

dogtown tom
December 13, 2010, 11:37 PM
H1N1:...I asked if this meant that I was denied by the FBI and they told me that they did not say that. I then asked if I would be denied from another dealer and they told me that they did not say that either.
If you were denied the dealer is required to give you the NICS transaction number. If you were denied do not attempt to purchase another firearm until NICS grants your appeal. (you will need your NTN # to start an appeal of your denial).

The dealer will not know the reason for your delay (or denial)....the FBI NICS will not give that information over the phone.



Now.......lets just hope that check doesn't bounce!:D





.

divil
December 13, 2010, 11:44 PM
If you were denied do not attempt to purchase another firearm until NICS grants your appeal.

May I ask why you advise this?

EDIT: Also, OP, I wouldn't accept a check if I were you - I'd insist on cash.

goodspeed(TPF)
December 14, 2010, 01:23 AM
Also, OP, I wouldn't accept a check if I were you - I'd insist on cash.

Yup, that's good advice right there.

Aguila Blanca
December 14, 2010, 08:18 AM
Checks are good. If the check bounces, then he iS committing fraud. It's against the law to knowingly issue bad checks.

RimfireChris
December 14, 2010, 04:45 PM
Good luck, let us know how it comes out. Sheesh, what a bunch of jerks at that store. I guess they must be doing pretty good if they can afford to turn away potential customers like that.

dogtown tom
December 14, 2010, 09:18 PM
divil Quote:
If you were denied do not attempt to purchase another firearm until NICS grants your appeal.
May I ask why you advise this?

If the FBI NICS denied the transaction, they will deny all future transactions (denied transactions are not deleted from the system at the close of the NICS business day like "proceeds" are).

divil
December 15, 2010, 12:48 PM
If the FBI NICS denied the transaction, they will deny all future transactions

The reason I asked is, I have done this. I did initiate an appeal, but I did not succeed. They simply sent me a letter saying basically: our system says you're fall in a prohibited category, and if not, prove it. I didn't prove it but months later I did try to buy another gun, and got a proceed.

So I would argue it is worth trying even if you have not successfully appealed

H1N1
December 15, 2010, 06:18 PM
If you were denied the dealer is required to give you the NICS transaction number.

Is this automatic or is there room for negotiation here from the dealer? They have been real asses from day 1. I really do not want to go there and demand that they provide me with this information and they say that it is not true.

My intentions are to go there on Friday and not say a word until I have the check in my hand. Once I get that check, I will then require about that NICS transaction number.

Sean

Miata Mike
December 15, 2010, 06:32 PM
My intentions are to go there on Friday and not say a word until I have the check in my hand. Once I get that check, I will then require about that NICS transaction number.

Sounds like a good plan. I have been watching this thread and wondering how it would turn out.

Drachenstein
December 15, 2010, 08:03 PM
Sounds more like somebody sold out of a Holiday Deal and the ATF is being made the bagman. :barf: While the transaction is on hold for three days for DELAY, it is still their option to proceed after that time. :rolleyes: If there's no NCS transaction number, you can bet that's what happened. Was it new or used? If it was new they probably sold it out from under you and attempted to reorder another one and have the order filled for you to pick up. If their issueing a check it means their supplier's probably out.;)

Lesson - take check in hand, then ask for NCS transaction number; either way - purchase elsewhere.:)

Aguila Blanca
December 15, 2010, 08:50 PM
If you were denied the dealer is required to give you the NICS transaction number.
Is this automatic or is there room for negotiation here from the dealer? They have been real asses from day 1. I really do not want to go there and demand that they provide me with this information and they say that it is not true.

My intentions are to go there on Friday and not say a word until I have the check in my hand. Once I get that check, I will then require about that NICS transaction number.
There is no room for "negotiation" ... but according to your telling of the circumstances, you have not been denied. You got a "Hold." That's not a denial.

Just collect your money and take it to another dealer.

TMackey
December 17, 2010, 07:30 PM
How'd it go?

H1N1
December 18, 2010, 12:57 PM
Well, I went to the dealer yesterday to get the check like he told me to. The guy was the typical ******* that he has been from day one and made me wait 20 minutes for a check.

The check was short $20 dollars and he stated that he could have charged me $50 for a re-stocking fee and that I should be grateful.

I asked him for the NCIS transaction number and he provided it. He also told me that the FBI did deny me. I will file and appeal over the weekend.

I am just curious, At any point does the FBI have to let me know why I was denied?

I know for a fact that I am not a felon and I have no convictions for domestic violence. To test my sanity, I had a different PI run my criminal background and Social Security number to make sure that someone else might have not tacked on a felony under my name.

Does the FBI have to provide me any information or can they just do what they often do - Ignore them and maybe they'll go away...:)

I cashed that bad boy immediately....

I figured I would let you all know that before hand...

Sean

BILLtheDJguy
December 18, 2010, 05:16 PM
I know in Florida, we are a "shall issue" state and they must tell you why you were denied. NOt sure about good ole' NY....

AH.74
December 18, 2010, 07:29 PM
I know in Florida, we are a "shall issue" state and they must tell you why you were denied. NOt sure about good ole' NY....

Bill- you're referring to the issue of a CCW permit. The issue here is denial of a purchase. Two entirely different things.

H1- you sure were unlucky to deal with such a complete jerk. Restocking fee? That guy is an utter cad and would have heard it from me. What an ass.

Good luck on the appeal.

Spats McGee
December 18, 2010, 07:44 PM
. . . .The check was short $20 dollars and he stated that he could have charged me $50 for a re-stocking fee and that I should be grateful.
Restocking fee? For an item that never left his stock?!? That's scamming you, plain and simple.

dogtown tom
December 18, 2010, 07:58 PM
H1N1
I am just curious, At any point does the FBI have to let me know why I was denied?...
Yes.
First you need to make a WRITTEN request to find out why they issued you a denial. You cannot make a phone call, it must be in writing: email, snail mail, or fax. The FBI has five days to respond with a reason for your denial.
If you choose to appeal the denial you will need to provide the FBI NICS with fingerprints, court documents, etc to prove your case.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/appeals/nics-guide-for-appealing


H1N1
....Does the FBI have to provide me any information or can they just do what they often do - Ignore them and maybe they'll go away...

I don't know your previous experience with the FBI, but they definitely do not ignore you.

I've had one customer who received a NICS denial. It took five months for his appeal to be granted (October '09-March '10)

pax
December 18, 2010, 08:23 PM
I just deleted a post that contained dangerously bad advice. Purchasing a firearm with the intention of giving or selling it to another, with the purpose of skirting an NCIS rejection, is a felony.

Don't risk it.

pax

riggins_83
December 18, 2010, 08:54 PM
I just deleted a post that contained dangerously bad advice. Purchasing a firearm with the intention of giving or selling it to another, with the purpose of skirting an NCIS rejection, is a felony.

Don't risk it.

+1 to that. I had a customer who stated he'd be declined on his background check and was going to have the paperwork done under his mom's name instead. Was really ****** when I said no... then she insisted the gun was for her, not him though he'd told me the opposite. I will not be part of a straw purchase...

556Isdeadly
December 18, 2010, 09:21 PM
I didn't suggest a straw purchase, to be fair. Suggesting someone you know buy a gun you like is not illegal. They are buying the gun. Not filing paperwork for you , as in fraud.

Since when did we let this communist government control our thoughts ?

KBP
December 18, 2010, 09:34 PM
If I buy a rifle for my son, or I give my son a rifle, is this a straw buy?

556Isdeadly
December 18, 2010, 09:47 PM
No, a Straw buy is a person intentionally filling out an Ncis form for another individual.

Bud Helms
December 18, 2010, 09:54 PM
... Purchasing a firearm with the intention of giving or selling it to another, with the purpose of skirting an NCIS rejection, is a felony.

That is a fact.

Get someone you know to buy the weapon you want, then buy it from the person , as long as said person doesn't buy it "for you" it's legal.

That is a distinction parading as a difference, which, given the context of this conversation, it is not.

Before you cross swords with the BATFE, you should probably have your stuff in a tight little pile. In the meantime, don't do it on TFL.

One more thing:
Since when did we let this communist government control our thoughts ? This is something else we don't do here: politics. Just think of it as the law.

No, a Straw buy is a person intentionally filling out an Ncis form for another individual.

Negative. "A straw purchase is when a buyer uses an intermediary (the "straw man") to purchase a firearm(s) from a licensed firearms dealer. The purpose is to hide the true identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm(s). Straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the actual possessor. ..." Quote is courtesy of the National Shooting Sports Foundation (http://www.nssf.org/newsroom/factsheets/straw-purchase.cfm).

556Isdeadly
December 18, 2010, 10:03 PM
Fair enough Bud,

I've always filled out my forms, No one I know buys firearms. I don't plan on fighting the BATF, I vote and donate to the NRA to prevent abuse of federal powers.

Hey Bud, is it Legal to post a sample NCIS form? That would help I think.

scottl
December 18, 2010, 10:40 PM
Here's you a pdf of it.
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

556Isdeadly
December 18, 2010, 10:50 PM
Awesome ! I'm still Legal. I was worried about my recent conviction of a violent crime but it's a misdemeanor and not over a year possible sentence.

hogdogs
December 18, 2010, 11:57 PM
IIRC, there is also the "up to 3 years" or some such on DV "Domestic type Violent or could become violent... or some such..."

Brent

Drachenstein
December 19, 2010, 01:10 AM
Restocking Fee:eek: isn't that when you've purchased something and for one reason or another returned it? If you were denied it's a "no sale",,,,, it never left stock inventory. Small claims court if you want to press the point, in most states you can also claim filing fees and court costs. His $20 rip off can end up costing a bit more.

hogdogs
December 19, 2010, 10:00 AM
How does an FFL dealer claim he never transferred a gun to a feller when he charged a "RESTOCKING FEE"... I think I mentioned something similar a few posts back...;):D
Brent

wally626
December 19, 2010, 01:46 PM
A non-refundable deposit may be in order on a special order gun or a transaction of that type, but the details should be clearly explained to the buyer prior to the deal. Just buying a gun off-the shelf would not seem to qualify for a re-stock fee.

Miata Mike
December 19, 2010, 02:08 PM
I am sorry to hear about the $20 fee, but at least it is over. He will lose way more than $20 from the bad word of mouth that I am sure will be dished out to friends and coworkers. I agree that he sounds like a jerk. :barf: ;)

natman
December 19, 2010, 05:35 PM
Just to play devil's advocate, let's look at this from a dealer's point of view. The dealer has a considerable amount of paperwork into this transaction. It's not the dealer's fault that the transaction was denied. At our shop, we charge a restocking fee to discourage people who know they are likely to have a problem from taking a flyer on a purchase to see if they pass. It only gets charged if:

the buyer gets denied
AND
the buyer requests a refund.

We've had guns tied up for months while the buyer appeals the denial.

As long as the restocking fee is clearly posted up front, I don't see $20 as being unreasonable.

Remember, we've only heard this story from the buyer's point of view. Pardon me now while I step into my flameproof suit. :cool: Thanks.

Wag
December 19, 2010, 06:01 PM
natman, it's just part of the cost of doing business. Like paying for the lights.

--Wag--

AH.74
December 19, 2010, 06:10 PM
The dealer has a considerable amount of paperwork into this transaction.


He had the gun in stock, already logged into the book. As noted, this is part of general business cost prior to sale.

He called in the 4473, and then called again later. Then he apparently received a denial notice. The gun was never logged out of the book.

He took cash and insisted on cutting a check back to the OP despite his asking for cash back.

A few minutes of time? Yes. Considerable paperwork? Not really.

scottl
December 19, 2010, 09:35 PM
Isn't any different if you have dealer just do transfer for you.
You hand over $15,$20,whatever
Fill out form and get denied.
Your still out the transfer fee because dealer called it in for you.

But some would probably pitch a fit over this too.

H1N1
December 19, 2010, 10:25 PM
Natman,

I understand your point but you stated something that I think needs clarifying.

You said "The dealer has a considerable amount of paperwork into this transaction".

Actually, this could not be furthest from the truth. I filled out a yellow form and the dealer looked at the info on the yellow form and called the FBI and relayed the information on the form.

He then told me that he had to wait for a response, which we all know from the original post, was almsot a one month wait after he said 3 days.

Anyway, the main point I am trying to make is -

That was about the extent of the paperwork on the dealers part.

He wrote down the FBI agent that he spoke to, and the NCIS transaction number. That was it.

Basically, the guy filled nothing out and made two phone calls.

Listen, I am not gonna get stressed over $20 bucks. Crap, my ex wife took me for like 75,000. The point though is that the guy really did nothing.

I am going to file the appeal tomorrow. Hopefully I do not come to learn that the guy was B.S. from the start.

I kind of have the feeling that he was but time will tell.

Thanks everyone, you have educated me a lot.

Sean

AH.74
December 20, 2010, 08:33 AM
I am going to file the appeal tomorrow. Hopefully I do not come to learn that the guy was B.S. from the start.

I kind of have the feeling that he was but time will tell.

Maybe a call to the FBI (and the agent in particular if possible) to confirm the denial, even if they don't give you the reason over the phone, would be wise. It could save you having to file the appeal and wait for the results. Then you'd also know for sure.

natman
December 20, 2010, 10:04 AM
Let me clarify. My shop is in California. Running a gun through DROS, the CA version of NICS, takes about half a hour of form filling, including checking ID, filling out the Federal 4473, filling out the state DROS form online, getting a fingerprint, etc, etc.

It may well be simpler elsewhere. YMMV.

RimfireChris
December 20, 2010, 03:16 PM
AH.74 has a good idea, call the FBI and confirm you WERE in fact denied. All you've got in that regards so far is this guy's say so, and I'd take that about as far as I can throw my truck.:rolleyes:

Stevie-Ray
December 20, 2010, 04:06 PM
Remember, we've only heard this story from the buyer's point of view. Pardon me now while I step into my flameproof suit. Thanks.Naw, you're probably right. But what would stick in my craw is the fact that this guy was such a putz, I would be loathe to give him a penny. It would be different if he was friendly and accomodating from the start, and then said something like, "I really hate to do this, but I have to charge you 20 dollars for the paperwork." I sort of doubt the OP would have had much of a problem, either.

H1N1
December 22, 2010, 07:19 PM
Today, I received a call from a woman from the FBI (Lisa), regarding my appeal of the NCIS. Apparently the address on the form I faxed over was not clear so she called me to verify my address. At that point I tried to probe a little bit and find out some information.

Here is what I found -

Was I actually denied?

Yes, I was denied. Of course Lisa would not tell me over the phone why I was denied but she verified in no uncertain terms that I was.

Will the information she is mailing CLEARLY state why I was denied?

No. Without telling me why I was denied, Lisa indicated that there are STATE proihibitors in New York that are different from other states. She stated that if this was the reason I was denied (She hinted this was the reason), the written response would only list that a State prohibition is the reason. The actual violation will not be listed.

Can I find out what is on my record that violates the State law?

Yes, the response that I receive from the NCIS appeal unit will include a fingerprint card that I can take to the local station, where I will be fingerprinted and it will be sent back to the FBI and then they will review the file and respond back SPECIFICALLY what is on my record that prohibits me from having a gun.

So, this is where I stand today. I imagine that it will probably take some time before I get the fingerprints taken, sent to the FBI, and then get the results back.

I can only imagine what kind of laws are on the books in New York that would prohibit me from getting a firearm. I would bet my money it is due to the false arrests for Domestic Violence.

Although these arrests were never prosecuted by the District Attorney because they were obviously just a weapon my ex used to gain an advantage in family court, I am pretty confident that is the reason.

As soon as I know, I will let everyone know.

Thanks again for all the help and I hope everyone has a safe and blessed Christmas.

Sean

(The weaponless New York Guy)

Wag
December 22, 2010, 10:37 PM
You're right. The domestic violence arrest will do it to you, regardless of whether or not the case was prosecuted.

Good luck with getting it all cleared up, though.

--Wag--

P.S. It's NICS, not NCIS. :D

pichon
December 23, 2010, 12:04 AM
If you are not guilty, how do you get denied. This kind of situation seems to be pretty common. I have heard of unjustified restraining orders and calls to the police to gain the upper hand in child custody battles, mainly by immature women (and occasionally men) trying to do as much harm to their ex'es as possible.

If it doesn't stick, it shouldn't even be on record. I could call the police right now and accuse anyone I wanted of domestic violence... Lies should not be held against you. JMHO.

hogdogs
December 23, 2010, 12:17 AM
The way it is worded in some places is akin to...
"Charged, convicted, plead to lesser or had adjudication withheld..."

Brent

AH.74
December 23, 2010, 09:32 AM
H1- you may as well be proactive and start getting in touch with the courts which handled those situations. You'll need to request all the disposition records showing that the cases/arrests were not prosecuted.

Good luck.

Pichon- if the state reports the charges to the FBI they will always be on the FBI identification record regardless of the outcome.

scottl
December 23, 2010, 11:15 AM
Question 11B probably has him stuck.

Dustin0
December 23, 2010, 11:27 AM
You need to go ahead with appeals process. I have done it. Ask for a UPIN also. It will take about 6 months the get everything fixed.