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ethan95
November 19, 2010, 09:11 PM
A local gun shop just contacted me about the firearm i recently purchased, an Inter Ordnance AK-47. the state police said the attorney general has decided the firearm is an "assault rifle" and the for all guns to be returned to the store within 48 hours. The AK is completely legal according to NJ state law, no bayonet lug, no telescopic stock, no flash hider, and no threaded barrel; but its an "assault rifle." If they don't receive the firearm within 48 hours, i will be guilty of a felony, and they will come and confiscate it. Frankly this situation has me more scared than angry. Will my NJ legal AR-15 be confiscated soon as well? I'm not looking to break any laws so i will on return it to the store tomorrow, how ever the lady who contacted me stated the situation may be resolved and in that case, i will have my baby.....uhh i mean firearm :p returned. Any thoughts or suggestions on the situation?

"ASSAULT RIFLE" LAWS From NJSP WEB SITE


"Assault firearms" means:
1. Any of the following firearms: Algimec AGM1 type Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder such as the "Street Sweeper" or "Striker 12" Armalite AR-180 type Australian Automatic Arms SAR Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms Beretta AR-70 and BM59 semi-automatic firearms Bushmaster Assault Rifle Calico M-900 Assault carbine and M-900 CETME G3
Chartered Industries of Singapore SR-88 type Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 series Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1 and Max 2, AR 100 types Demro TAC-1 carbine type
Encom MP-9 and MP-45 carbine types FAMAS MAS223 types FN-FAL, FN-LAR, or FN-FNC type semi-automatic firearms Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12 shotguns G3SA type Galil type Heckler and Koch HK91, HK93, HK94, MP5, PSG-1 Intratec TEC 9 and 22 semi-automatic firearms M1 carbine type M14S type MAC 10, MAC 11, MAC 11-9 mm carbine type firearms PJK M-68 carbine type Plainfield Machine Company Carbine Ruger K-Mini-14/5 F and Mini-14/5 RF SIG AMT, SIG 550SP, SIG 551SP, SIG PE-57 types SKS with detachable magazine type Spectre Auto carbine type Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48 type Sterling MK-6, MK-7 and SAR types Steyr A.U.G. semi-automatic firearms USAS 12 semi-automatic type shotgun Uzi type semi-automatic firearms Valmet M62, M71S, M76, or M78 type semi-automatic firearms Weaver Arm Nighthawk;


2. Any firearm manufactured under any designation, which is substantially identical to any of the firearms listed in paragraph 1 above. As used in this definition, the term "substantial" means pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing and the term "identical" means exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless it is identical except for differences that do not alter the essential nature of the firearm.

The following are examples of manufacturer changes that do not alter the essential nature of the firearm: the name or designation of the firearm; the color of the firearm; the material used to make the barrel or stock of the firearm; the material used to make a pistol grip; and a modification of a pistol grip. This is not an exclusive list. A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be "substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:

i. A semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:
(1) A folding or telescoping stock; (2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (3) A bayonet mount; (4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and (5) A grenade launcher;

ii. A semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:
(1) An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip; (2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer; (3) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned;
(4) Manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and/or (5) A semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm; and

iii. A semi-automatic shotgun that has at least two of the following:
(1) A folding or telescoping stock; (2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (3) A fixed magazine capacity in excess of six rounds; and/or (4) An ability to accept a detachable magazine;
3. A semi-automatic shotgun with either a magazine capacity exceeding six rounds, a folding stock or a pistol grip;
4. A semi-automatic rifle with a fixed magazine capacity exceeding 15 rounds; or
5. A part or combination of parts designed or intended to convert a firearm into an assault firearm, or any combination of parts from which an assault firearm may be readily assembled if those parts
are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

Spats McGee
November 19, 2010, 09:46 PM
Are you sure that it was the gun shop that contacted you? This sounds fishy. I'd call the state police and ask. If it does turn out to be true, I'd contact a civil rights attorney immediately, preferably one that knows a little Second Amendment law.

ethan95
November 19, 2010, 09:50 PM
it absolutely was, i actually called the store back later and talked to the owner, he validated everything. civil rights attorney sounds like a fine idea to me at this point. Theres also an NRA hearing about it tonight, there all over it.

Spats McGee
November 19, 2010, 09:56 PM
I looked at the NJSP site, as well as the NJ Attorney General. I found the definition, but I didn't see anything about confiscation. From the looks of things, AK-47s have been "assault firearms" there for a long time. How is it that the AG is suddenly deciding to confiscate? And under what authority? Go to the NRA hearing, get on the agenda if you can. Let the NRA (or any other pro-RKBA association that can help) know about it.

Edited to add: The NRA Civil Rights Defense Fund can be found here: http://www.nradefensefund.org/requesting_help.aspx

ethan95
November 19, 2010, 10:04 PM
yes but, they say "Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms" are illegal, id love to know what they mean :). no where on my firearm does it say "Kalashnikov" or "ak47". Thanks for all the help Spats McGee, its much appreciated.

Spats McGee
November 19, 2010, 10:07 PM
But your own statement was that the firearm is an "Inter Ordnance AK-47." :confused:

Keep us posted on this one. It's a real problem if your state AG has suddenly decided that a permissible (if regulated) firearm is suddenly subject to confiscation. A REAL problem.

Edited to add: And I'm glad to help.

youngunz4life
November 19, 2010, 10:08 PM
definately return the weapon tomorrow as you said within the deadline plus retrieve some type of official receipt which should be provided anyway. Just like a bill you dispute & don't think you owe, its better to pay the bill if possible before your credit is ruined and then go into plan b after. plan b here: at the very least talk to an attorney who specializes in these types of situations ethan. You might also want to talk to some organizations who deal with the protection of civilian's gun rights. good luck plus please keep us posted. you might have something here that can go a long way and prove to be Good for you in more ways than one and as well as the rights of fellow gun owners.

ethan95
November 19, 2010, 10:10 PM
But your own statement was that the firearm is an "Inter Ordnance AK-47":confused: yes i did, and now im eating my words lol

And like you said it is a problem, hopefully its resolved soon.

Conn. Trooper
November 19, 2010, 10:33 PM
I would guess that "AK type" equals whatever you bought. Making it illegal.

I am guessing, I don't know anything about the laws in NJ, but it sounds like that is the issue.

ethan95
November 19, 2010, 10:43 PM
@Conn. Trooper- i guess that's the problem, but that doesn't justify it. Citizens lawfully owning a firearm for recreational purposes doesn't warrant a confiscation. I also never thought that "Kalashnikov type" could be considered a legal term.

MLeake
November 19, 2010, 10:48 PM
.... and this firearm issue is one facet of it.

But I don't want to get political... For those of you who do live there, though, perhaps you should get political, if you aren't already, and maybe let the people who make some of these rules know that you don't appreciate them, and that they do affect your votes.

alloy
November 19, 2010, 10:52 PM
So does this mean Inter Ordinance will now be/has just become banned from sales of AK clones in the great state of Jersey?

ethan95
November 19, 2010, 10:59 PM
So does this mean Inter Ordinance will now be/has just become banned from sales of AK clones in the great state of Jersey?

as off right now, yes they have :(:mad:

Spats McGee
November 19, 2010, 11:08 PM
From what I could tell, AKs have been classified as an "assault firearm" for years. Assuming that the OP has gotten correct info, there are huge legal problems with the NJAG doing this.
If it was legal to possess when you purchased it, and you purchased it legally (& I have no reason to think otherwise), how does the AG suddenly make possession a crime? That's a separation of powers problem, as your AG probably doesn't have legislative authority.
Has the legislature recently passed something that allows the AG to confiscate them?
Has the AG "interpreted" a statute to mean he or she can confiscate?
Is someone going to pay you for your AK? If not, I'd call it a taking without just compensation.
I'd be looking for a paper trail, and making copies of everything I found. A move this big can't happen without someone putting together a memo.

alloy
November 19, 2010, 11:11 PM
Jeez, not really any way to know how far back they would go.
Seems like a poor use of gun store or manufacturer's files/lists.

Jimmy10mm
November 19, 2010, 11:13 PM
I spent most of the eighties and some of the nineties in NJ. They really make you jump through hoops to buy a handgun. Forget about ccw, at least back then. You could carry the handgun in your car. Locked in the trunk with ammo locked elsewhere. :( Odd that Pennsylvania has ccw and much more agreeable to gun rights. I'm in FL now and staying.

ethan95
November 19, 2010, 11:16 PM
it seems as though around 500 were sold just through the store i bought mine from. I bet there are about 30 other places selling them. That's not a small confiscation at all. Hopefully the other 2000+ buyers are just as angered as i am.

Spats McGee
November 19, 2010, 11:20 PM
Tomorrow morning, call a few other gun shops for confirmation, as well.

ethan95
November 19, 2010, 11:23 PM
Tomorrow morning, call a few other gun shops for confirmation, as well.

sounds like a good idea to me, will do.

Mr Lucky
November 19, 2010, 11:37 PM
I am not a NJ legal expert. I do sell firearms to NJ. If the AG acts to confiscate your rifle retroactively you should at least have grounds with the State Department of Revenue to have the amount of retail sales tax for the rifle refunded to you. I know this is not much, but something is better than nothing.

TXAZ
November 20, 2010, 12:34 AM
Wow!
Glad I live in2 states that are significantly more liberal gun wise.
One question: what would happen if the gun was not currently in NJ?

ethan95
November 20, 2010, 12:53 AM
what would happen if the gun was not currently in NJ?

that was my first thought. I have a few friends in pa who would be more than willing to watch over her :rolleyes:. But if i don't turn it in the state police are gonna be knocking on (possibly knocking down) my door, thinking that i was just hiding it. I suppose i could do the transfer at the gun store and sell it to a trusted friend for $.01. Then i would have all the paper work, and the serial number released from me.

Mr Lucky
November 20, 2010, 01:35 AM
that was my first thought. I have a few friends in pa who would be more than willing to watch over her . But if i don't turn it in the state police are gonna be knocking on (possibly knocking down) my door, thinking that i was just hiding it. I suppose i could do the transfer at the gun store and sell it to a trusted friend for $.01. Then i would have all the paper work, and the serial number released from me.

It may be legal for you to legally transfer the rifle rather than to have it conficated.

New Jersey Revised Statutes as of 2008

Was the rifle registered as an "Assault Firearm"?

2C:58-12. Registration of assault firearms
a. Within 90 days of the effective date of P.L.
1990, c. 32 (C.2C:58-12 et al.), the Attorney
General shall promulgate a list by trade name of
any assault firearm which the Attorney General
determines is an assault firearm which is used
for legitimate target-shooting purposes. This list
shall include, but need not be limited to, the Colt
AR-15 and any other assault firearm used in
competitive shooting matches sanctioned by the
Director of Civilian Marksmanship of the United
States Department of the Army.
b. The owner of an assault firearm purchased
on or before May 1, 1990 which is on the list of
assault firearms determined by the Attorney
General to be legitimate for target-shooting purposes
shall have one year from the effective
date of P.L. 1990, c. 32 (C.2C:58-12 et al.) to
register that firearm. In order to register an assault
firearm, the owner shall:
(1) Complete an assault firearm registration
statement, in the form to be prescribed by the
Superintendent of the State Police;
(2) Pay a registration fee of $50.00 per each
assault firearm;
(3) Produce for inspection a valid firearms
purchaser identification card, a valid permit to
carry handguns, or a copy of the permit to purchase
a handgun which was used to purchase
the assault firearm which is being registered;
and
(4) Submit valid proof that the person is a
member of a rifle or pistol club in existence prior
to the effective date of P.L. 1990, c. 32 (C.2C:
58-12 et al.).
Membership in a rifle or pistol club shall not
be considered valid unless the person joined the
club no later than 210 days after the effective
date of P.L. 1990, c. 32 (C.2C:58-12 et al.) and
unless the rifle or pistol club files its charter with
the Superintendent no later than 180 days following
the effective date of P.L. 1990, c. 32 (C.
2C:58-12 et al). The rifle or pistol club charter
shall contain the name and address of the club's
headquarters and the name of the club's
officers.
The information to be provided in the registration
statement shall include, but shall not be limited
to: the name and address of the registrant;
the number or numbers on the registrant's firearms
purchaser identification card, permit to carry
handguns, or permit to purchase a handgun;
the name, address, and telephone number of
the rifle or pistol club in which the registrant is a
member; and the make, model, and serial number
of the assault firearm being registered. Each
registration statement shall be signed by the
registrant, and the signature shall constitute a
representation of the accuracy of the information
contained in the registration statement.
c. For an applicant who resides in a municipality
with an organized full-time police department,
the registration shall take place at the
main office of the police department. For all
other applicants, the registration shall take place
at any State Police station.
d. Within 60 days of the effective date of P.L.
1990, c. 32 (C.2C-58-12 et al.), the Superintendent
shall prepare the form of registration statement
as described in subsection b. of this section
and shall provide a suitable supply of statements
to each organized full-time municipal police
department and each State Police station.
e. One copy of the completed assault firearms
registration statement shall be returned to the
registrant, a second copy shall be sent to the
Superintendent, and, if the registration takes
place at a municipal police department, a third
copy shall be retained by that municipal police
department.
f. If the owner of an assault firearm which has
been registered pursuant to this section dies, the
owner's heirs or estate shall have 90 days to dispose
of that firearm in accordance with section
12 of P.L. 1990, c. 32 (C.2C:58-13).
g. If an assault firearm registered pursuant to
the provisions of this section is used in the commission
of a crime, the registrant of that assault
firearm shall be civilly liable for any damages resulting
from that crime. The liability imposed by
this subsection shall not apply if the assault firearm
used in the commission of the crime was
stolen and the registrant reported the theft of the
firearm to law enforcement authorities within 24
hours of the registrant's knowledge of the theft.
h. Of the registration fee required pursuant to
subsection b. of this section, $20.00 shall be forwarded
to the State Treasury for deposit in the
account used by the Violent Crimes Compensation
Board in satisfying claims and for related
administrative costs pursuant to the provisions
of the "Criminal Injuries Compensation Act of
1971," P.L. 1971, c. 317 (C.52:4B-1 et seq.).

Legal transfer in you state can be made without an FFL. If you were to have a local FFL send the rifle to another FFL (out of state) he would not record this as an acquisition unless a trade or money exchanged hands between you and your local dealer. The receiving FFL would record the transaction as an acquisition. The firearm could then be transfered by that FFL to a buyer subject to ATF Form 4473 and a background check.

2C:58-13. Transfer of assault firearm to another;
rendering inoperable; voluntarily surrendering
a. Any person who legally owns an assault
firearm on the effective date of this act and who
is unable to register or chooses not to register
the firearm pursuant to section 11 of P.L. 1990,
c. 32 (C.2C:58-12) may retain possession of that
firearm for a period not to exceed one year from
the effective date of this act. During this time
period, the owner of the assault firearm shall
either:
(1) Transfer the assault firearm to any person
or firm lawfully entitled to own or possess such
firearm;
(2) Render the assault firearm inoperable; or
(3) Voluntarily surrender the assault firearm
pursuant to the provisions of N.J.S.2C:39-12.
b. If the owner of an assault firearm elects to
render the firearm inoperable, the owner shall
file a certification on a form prescribed by the
Superintendent of the State Police indicating the
date on which the firearm was rendered inoperable.
This certification shall be filed with either
the chief law enforcement officer of the municipality
in which the owner resides or, in the case
of an owner who resides outside this State but
stores or possesses an assault firearm in this
State, with the Superintendent of the State Police.
c. As used in this section, "inoperable" means
that the firearm is altered in such a manner that
it cannot be immediately fired and that the owner
or possessor of the firearm does not possess or
have control over the parts necessary to make
the firearm operable.

ethan95
November 20, 2010, 01:45 AM
Was the rifle registered as an "Assault Firearm"?

the firearm was never registered as an assault rifle, i was just notified today that its an "assault rifle". i think legally transferring it in-store (so there's a paper trail) is a good solution.

Mr Lucky
November 20, 2010, 02:09 AM
the firearm was never registered as an assault rifle, i was just notified today that its an "assault rifle". i think legally transferring it in-store (so there's a paper trail) is a good solution.

In the state where I do business, there is no oversight by any local or State police agency. In NJ, I believe FFL's are regularly inspected. It is also possible that the FFL was notified by the Attorney Generals Office or the Stat Police that the Subject Firearm has been or is being examine for inclusion to the AG's list of "Assault Firearms."

If the firearm is classified by the state as an "Assault Firearm" there should be a grace period of more than 48 hours. I would ask the FFL dealer to send you a certified letter of the directive that prompted his call to you.

1. You may be able to register the firearm

2. There may be legal recourse between you and the FFL dealer if he knew it was prohibited on the date of the sale. Small claims court might then be recommended if the dealer was not willing to refund the purchase amount. Times, dates and records of what has transpired are critical for you.

3. A transfer to an out of state party does seem to be a legitimate course of action. Either your local FFL or you can send the rifle to an out of state FFL for transfer. You cannot legally ship the firearm intrastate except to an FFL.

Keep us posted on this.

ethan95
November 20, 2010, 02:40 AM
If the firearm is classified by the state as an "Assault Firearm" there should be a grace period of more than 48 hours. I would ask the FFL dealer to send you a certified letter of the directive that prompted his call to you.

1. You may be able to register the firearm


ya, 48 hours is quite short. And the FFL is absolutely giving me his version of the story in writing, in case this thing goes anywhere. I never thought about the fact that i should be able to register it, im definitely going to voice that idea. Other than that, if allowed, I'm sending the firearm to live with a freind until i move out of this state. I live literately 5 minutes from freedom (aka Pennsylvania). im about ready to swim across the Delaware right now :rolleyes:

I wanted to thank everyone for there help in this matter. Your input and ideas are very helpful. Today was an enlightening day. I wont stand for this, and i hope my fellow NJ firearm enthusiasts will stand by my side. Thanks again, Ethan

Dead
November 20, 2010, 07:57 AM
There was a case MANY years ago, when someone got arrested for a MAK-90, the state lost the case "ak type", and no pursed it further. While the law did no change, failing to challenge the it led to the ambiguous language rather flat. Note it was at this point that it was "legal" to purchase AK, AR, and other "type" rifles that were not an "assault weapon" due to "evil" features.

The main issue with the rifle might just be that it has "AK-47" stamped on it. Considering the above, and if the NRA would help, this could be a good case to challenge the AW ban in NJ. That is my own opinion.

Double Naught Spy
November 20, 2010, 10:36 AM
A local gun shop just contacted me about the firearm i recently purchased, an Inter Ordnance AK-47. the state police said the attorney general has decided the firearm is an "assault rifle" and the for all guns to be returned to the store within 48 hours.

Sorry, but this sounds totaly bogus. If the AG decided the firearm is illegal, the AG would not be having you return it to the gun shop (unless of course the gun shop has been ordered to refund your money, which you did not indicate). Otherwise, the AG would be having your turn in your gun to the police. If the gun is contraband for you to own, it is contraband for the gun shop as well, or has the AG made an additional interpretation of the NJ law saying it is okay for gun shops to possess contraband guns?

Sounds a bit incredible (but no more so that the AG saying you have to return the gun to the gun shop), but I would be willing to bet that upon returning it to the gun shop, you will have to sign the gun over to the gun shop, thereby absolving you of ownership and making the gunshop the owner. Then the gun shop gets a free gun with clear ownership.

Why would I think of such an incredible story? I googled the keywords from the topic and find no other such accounts matching the OP's gunstore confiscation story. I check three different AK47 boards and absolutely nobody else seems to be in New Jersey with an AK47 that is reporting the same story.

I may be wrong, but I can't find anything the corroborate the OP's story.

AirForceShooter
November 20, 2010, 11:03 AM
No grandfather provisions?

Doesn't sound right.

Call the SAF and see if they know anything

AFS

musher
November 20, 2010, 11:57 AM
For what it's worth, there is nothing prohibiting you from storing your gun at your friend's house. You don't need to transfer ownership to your friend, put a trigger lock on it and keep the key.

ethan95
November 20, 2010, 12:46 PM
Sorry, but this sounds totaly bogus. If the AG decided the firearm is illegal, the AG would not be having you return it to the gun shop (unless of course the gun shop has been ordered to refund your money, which you did not indicate). Otherwise, the AG would be having your turn in your gun to the police. If the gun is contraband for you to own, it is contraband for the gun shop as well, or has the AG made an additional interpretation of the NJ law saying it is okay for gun shops to possess contraband guns?

Sounds a bit incredible (but no more so that the AG saying you have to return the gun to the gun shop), but I would be willing to bet that upon returning it to the gun shop, you will have to sign the gun over to the gun shop, thereby absolving you of ownership and making the gunshop the owner. Then the gun shop gets a free gun with clear ownership.

Why would I think of such an incredible story? I googled the keywords from the topic and find no other such accounts matching the OP's gunstore confiscation story. I check three different AK47 boards and absolutely nobody else seems to be in New Jersey with an AK47 that is reporting the same story.

First off, it is an incredible story, but that doesn't make it not true. I do have the option to receive a refund, but that doesn't make it all ok. Why there are no other posts about it, im not sure, this is NJ, there arnt many of us firearm owners here. If you doubt it that much i welcome you to call the New Jersey State Police, who are acting on behalf of the AG, here is there number (609)-882-2000. This is an amazing story, and im not a liar, and neither is my firearms dealer. Heres the gun manufactures number as well, there not accepting calls at this time :eek:(how convenient) (704) 225-8843

2guns
November 20, 2010, 03:20 PM
Have you read the Constitution?

Not once but twice, it states that there shall be no ex post facto law. What this AG is doing is violating that very item.
Next, this is your property now and you have a right to property and it cannot be "confiscated", er that is stolen, without due process of law. Where is the due process in this mess?

I am not a lawyer. However, if this situation is as you say, these clowns (AG, and the troopers who would come to steal your property) should be taught a lesson.

Here is what I would do. Take the gun out of state along with any other firearms you may have. Deliver them to a friend who can be trusted. Do not speak to this friend on your cell phone or any other device that can be monitored. Perhaps call from a pay phone or a another friends home. Be certain you have no guns or ammo in your home and then wait for the door to be kicked in. Make no threats, answer no questions, comply with nothing they are demanding. Force the state's hand on this one.

We are either a nation of laws or we have lawlessness...and from what I am seeing all over the country it is the latter. Let this case prove the point one way or another.

Just one more reason why I cannot fathom why anyone would live in N.J.

Mr Lucky
November 20, 2010, 06:20 PM
First off, it is an incredible story, but that doesn't make it not true. I do have the option to receive a refund, but that doesn't make it all ok. Why there are no other posts about it, im not sure, this is NJ, there arnt many of us firearm owners here. If you doubt it that much i welcome you to call the New Jersey State Police, who are acting on behalf of the AG, here is there number (609)-882-2000. This is an amazing story, and im not a liar, and neither is my firearms dealer. Heres the gun manufactures number as well, there not accepting calls at this time (how convenient) (704) 225-8843

Members here would like to help you and have an interest in you dilemma. Can you give us the name and phone number of the gun shop where you purchased the rifle and the date of your purchase?

ethan95
November 20, 2010, 07:10 PM
Members here would like to help you and have an interest in you dilemma. Can you give us the name and phone number of the gun shop where you purchased the rifle and the date of your purchase?

I thank you all very much for your concern and help in this matter. as of 2:00 pm today the firearm was back in the hands of the store and i received a full refund (including tax). i don't feel comfortable giving out the name and number of the store, as this situation really wasn't there fault. They were very sorry(and quite angry) about the situation; and also said i can have a discount on any another firearm. Inter Ordnance has filled a law suite against the the state, the gun stores across the state are standing behind them. Last night there was a meeting regarding the matter with the NRA and a law firm from NJ. The NRA has there top lawyers on it. My name has been put on file with the gun store and in the case that the firearm is deemed legal, i will have the option to receive the same one i originally had. At this time there is no agenda for me to join in the suite against the state.



The updated complete story

The firearm i purchased was being sold on a very large scale, upon review of the monthly firearm sales, the AG noticed this particular firearm. The AG then determend the firearm to be an "assault rifle", and there for illegal by law. The NJ State Police were then involved. The NJSP contacted all FFL dealers and asked if they sold the firearm, and told each FFL they had 6 hours to gather the names and info of all people who purchased the firearm, and submit it to the NJSP. After realizing the massive amount of the firearms that were sold, the NJSP told all FFl dealers they had 48 hours "re-acquire" all firearms sold by them, and after 48 hours anyone who didn't return the firearm, their information needed to be submitted to the NJSP, and officers would then retrieve them. I was then contacted by the store i purchased the firearm from. Inter Ordnance was contacted by the state police and made aware of the situation. Inter Ordnance then contacted the NRA, and a law firm in NJ. Inter Ordnance has decided to take legal action against the state of New Jersey.

Double Naught Spy
November 20, 2010, 08:01 PM
First off, it is an incredible story, but that doesn't make it not true.
Nobody has said this. However, the wilder the story, the more likely that it isn't going to be factual. Take the 48 hours. When did the 48 hours start? When does it end? There is no way that the 48 hours is determined by when the gun shop contacts you. It would be from the time of issuance of the ruling/decision or from a specified type stipulated in the ruling/decision. It is not likely to be inclusive of a Sunday as Sunday isn't a typical business day and not all businesses are open Sunday.

ya, 48 hours is quite short. And the FFL is absolutely giving me his version of the story in writing, in case this thing goes anywhere.
So the gun shop doesn't have anything offical in writing either? The owner is going to write you a note. Come on!

This is an amazing story, and im not a liar, and neither is my firearms dealer.

But did you call the other gun shops as you said you would?

Tomorrow morning, call a few other gun shops for confirmation, as well.

sounds like a good idea to me, will do.

So tomorrow morning was this morning. Funny you didn't report how all the other shops are scampering around to collect firearms.

But wait, what is this....http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/19939-the-new-attorney-generals-interpretation-of-2c39-1w-assault-firearm-means-avtomat-kalashnikov-type-semiautomatic-firearms/page__hl__confiscation

According to the source there, the time limit is 24 hours, not 48. How could that be different? I am certain that gun shops would not be interpretting the AG's mandates differently as the AG would have made a specific statement. Somebody isn't exactly telling the truth.

From reading the thread, it would appear that the time period is arbitrary. IO shipped guns to dealers in NJ that are not compliant with the law for some reason. Dealers are requesting the guns back for IO, not operating as an extension of the State Police.

The time frame to return the rifles to the dealers is arbitrary. Apparently dealers are contacting customers and trying to pressure them into returning the guns as quickly as possible. So yeah, somebody is definitely lying.

Contacting the NJSP wasn't terribly helpful. The person who answered had no knowledge of any pending IO AK47 type rifle confiscations...and I wasn't the first to call.

ethan95
November 20, 2010, 09:16 PM
But did you call the other gun shops as you said you would?

I did, one said they don't sell the firearm and have no knowledge about the situation, the other said the NJSP were ordering all the firearms to be returned to the store.

Mr Lucky
November 20, 2010, 09:43 PM
ethan95,

There is very little mention of this on the Web in any other forums. This is very unusual. If this were a week day, there would be followup with local gun shops and with the manufacturers distributors for claims that have been made.

You could help others here by uploading a copy of your refund receipt (marked out), the name of the gun shop, a letter from the gun shop, attendees of the NRA meeting or any other information about this situation that you were involved in regarding this incident.

Wag
November 20, 2010, 10:04 PM
Just pokin' around a bit, most dealers won't ship this firearm to NJ at all.

It's almost as if dealers received it in error and had to recall them.

Very strange.

I'm wondering if there will be a court docket available on Monday.

--Wag--

isanchez2008
November 25, 2010, 04:51 PM
Anybody have an update on this "situation"?

TXAZ
November 25, 2010, 06:03 PM
I have to wonder if the dealer has this right. If NJ says it's now a prohibited weapon (my words), then they need the ability to track back on who/when/where/etc in the event they want to get nasty with an owner or some bureaucrat wants to show he's made all the appropriate contacts.
Verbally passing this on gives them no audit trail, and the FFL's could claim all the weapons were reportedly out of state / whatever would appease the state.

full.tang.halo
November 25, 2010, 07:02 PM
Reminds me of the the ATI GSG-5SD debacle with the BAFTE declaring the hollow shrouds suppressors. Not sure BAFTE has ever issued a letter regarding the issue, only paperwork I've ever seen posted was a comical MS-Paint diagram of the two different shrouds. Seemed they didn't wanna put anything on paper least someone want to try to make something of it.

ethan95
November 25, 2010, 11:40 PM
Update:

Whelp, right now its all just a matter of what happens on the legal end of things. Inter Ordnance has filed a law suite, with help from the NRA. I returned the firearm, as requested, and received a full refund (i actually turned it right into a slightly used Beretta 92 brigadier for $500:D) So far no angry calls from the NJSP. This situation has had me furious. I now have plans to venture across the border into freedom (PA) permanently, this coming summer. Any more updates ill be sure to let you guys know. Thanks a bunch.

ethan95
November 25, 2010, 11:42 PM
Reminds me of the the ATI GSG-5SD debacle with the BAFTE declaring the hollow shrouds suppressors.

Funny you should say that.... i noticed them for sale in my local shop just the other day, barrel shroud and all. Here we go again. :eek: lucky i didnt buy one i was sure thinking bout it.:o

brickeyee
November 26, 2010, 10:33 AM
It is not 'ex post facto' if the law was already in place that the AG claims was violated.

Using 'Kalashnikov style' in a law makes it a legal term (and within the purview of the courts to figure out what it means).

requiring the buyer to return the gun to the dealer is NOT a confiscation.

If the police came and took it without compensation it would be 'confiscated.'

The whole thing sounds like someone screwed up and shipped and then sold guns that under state law are prohibited (at least the AG thinks so).

The GA probably threatened the dealer with a world of hurt if they did not get the guns returned.

It would appear the state is running amuck, but it is going to take deep pockets (and maybe a conviction) to move it out of the state courts and into the federal system.

full.tang.halo
November 26, 2010, 04:35 PM
Funny you should say that.... i noticed them for sale in my local shop just the other day, barrel shroud and all. Here we go again. lucky i didnt buy one i was sure thinking bout it.

They've collected nearly all the old style shrouds from the GSG-5, only old shrouds would be in private hands, and that line had to be discontinued. Any new stock is a GSG-522 which was the result of the settlement the H&K lawsuit, they had to make some cosmetic changes. I wouldn't be scared to pick one up, if the grip isn't studded the shroud screws off real quick to check if it is post recall.

TeamSinglestack
November 26, 2010, 05:06 PM
I don't know how y'all can live in those anti-American/firearms states...

IMO, a threat to send cops to my home to confiscate my lowly semi-auto rifle is a straight up act of war.

Al Norris
November 26, 2010, 06:58 PM
I don't know how y'all can live in those anti-American/firearms states...

IMO, a threat to send cops to my home to confiscate my lowly semi-auto rifle is a straight up act of war.

I see. So while the rest of us are supporting the court cases that are just now starting to define what the Court said, for the first time in US History I might add, was an individual right not connected to any militia service ... You are gonna go off half-cocked and declare (reciprocal) war on the cops?

This is the absolutist type of attitude that has in the past and will in the future set the 2A movement back. A decade or two.

ethan95
November 26, 2010, 08:09 PM
This is the absolutist type of attitude that has in the past and will in the future set the 2A movement back. A decade or two.


I completely agree!! Not handling this situation reasonably and rationally, and threatening physical violence. Just gives more, for lack of a better word, ammo to those who actively oppose the 2A.

youngunz4life
December 1, 2010, 02:02 AM
I think the majority were recovered, but they did some fishing that day, week, month, and not all the fish were caught. I don't think the ones that didn't get the letter by accident, had moved to a different address, etc are responsible legally. I would've returned it too ethan. I just know some other brave soul still has his and he might not be illegal right now. I mean, some of the other posts were right, when did the 48hrs start and the gun store was the one trying. weird. Any responses that disobyed in the end might be in trouble but the ones that just totally ignored might be in the clear until they're engaged. PLEASE keep us posted.

Ztek69
June 19, 2011, 06:04 PM
Back when Jim Florio pushed through the AW ban, none of them were allowed to be kept. You had 2 choices-turn them in, or move them out of state. NO GRANDFATHERING what-so-ever. Same thing with magazines over 15 rounds. This never happened before in this country. And the people of NJ did nothing! Sure, Florio lost the next election, over a sales tax issue, but all his buddies kept their elected offices. Most of Florios buddies are still there.

Aguila Blanca
June 19, 2011, 06:40 PM
Florio is past history and not of interest.

However ... now that this thread has been dredged up, does anyone have anything new to report regarding the NRA's and/or InterArms' suits against the State of NJ?

alan
June 20, 2011, 01:41 PM
It is NOT my intention to come off sounding like a smart ass but the problem seems to revolve about your state of residence. It might not be doable for you, for various reasons, but have you considered relocating.

Speaking personally, I quit NYC where I grew up and lived for many years in 1967. Guess why. Such action might not work for everyone, but it might be worth thinking on.

NJgunowner
June 20, 2011, 02:44 PM
With the state of the job economy right now finding work out of state is PITA. I was all set to move back to the midwest then the economy tanked... so here I stay sigh.:(

JustThisGuy
June 23, 2011, 03:58 AM
I have a dear friend who is former FBI who lives in NJ. I talked with him about moving to the great state of Texas.

After adding up NJ income tax, property tax, sales tax, and municipal taxes and fees (car registration, etc.) and adding in the high cost of living and cost of energy (car gas + home gas + electricity), he is coming to the conclusion that it is far better and cheaper to live in Texas where there is no income tax, a reasonable sales and property tax and a very affordable cost of living and enough good jobs to go around.

And, oh yeah, no problem with guns there.

Something to think about.

Maxem0815
June 23, 2011, 05:25 AM
I left the north east years ago I remember when the State of Connecticut made everyone who owned a "assault rifle" register it like a machine gun and get paper work to prove you can have it and that it was purchased before the all out ban. Sounds like N.J. has become the Obama perfect peoples republic.

Nice reason to live in Florida and we have no state income tax and no personal property tax (in CT you never own your car the State does).

Mace

Happiness is a belt fed weapon and lots of ammo

youngunz4life
June 23, 2011, 05:51 AM
"You all can go to he*&, and I'll go to Texas." -Davy Crockett

"Welcome to the gunshine state."

BGutzman
June 23, 2011, 06:33 AM
One day the court is really going to have to come to some sort of crystal clear interpretation of what "Shall not be infringed" means, until that day comes its going to be subject to the political whims of whatever group is in power in whatever state/s.

The problem is I see it without a clear defining set of rules from the SCOTUS its pretty easy for legislatures to do whatever and if its stuck down often a new law with slightly different wording is enacted and we end up doing the same thing again...

Thats my two cents...