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bassfishindoc
November 13, 2010, 10:05 PM
Hey everybody, I recently received my C&R in the mail. I know you have to keep a bound book of all the firearms purchased with it and you cannot buy and sell firearms for others. With Christmas coming up I wanted to get my brother a Mosin-Nagant and use my C&R to do it. What are the rules for purchasing gifts with the C&R? Can I get in trouble for this? Do I need to document it in a certain way in my bound book? Thanks everybody!

dogtown tom
November 13, 2010, 10:22 PM
Your 03FFL is to acquire firearms for YOUR collection. Using it to acquire firearms to sell or gift to others is not allowed.

While ATF regulations clearly allow you to acquire and dispose of eligible firearms, the intent is that you would do so to enhance your collection- not to enhance someone else's collection or to engage in the business of dealing in firearms.

The red flag to ATF is that you acquired a firearm and immediately disposed of it to your brother. Anytime you dispose of a firearm you are required to record their information in your bound book. You may get lucky.... ATF may not ever audit your books, or at best several years after you gifted the firearm.

Cheapshooter
November 14, 2010, 01:57 PM
using my c&r to buy a gift
only if you want to go to jail!!!
Maybe not quite that serious, but dogtown tom explained very well why not.

SfcMac
November 14, 2010, 03:19 PM
Look Bassfishin Forget about your C&R . Take your Brother to the Gun store and let him pick out the rifle he wants.Let them do the NICS and then you pay for the gun. Make sense? Sound like a great idea?
Merry Christmas
Sfc Mac

bassfishindoc
November 14, 2010, 05:44 PM
SfcMac, that would be the easiest but then it would mean going through a dealer which means dealer markups and the loss of the great deal. I found a supply of Mosin's from a distributor in my town that does not do their own NICS and only ships to FFL holders. If I go through an FFL01 that means paying shipping of the rifle to them ($20) plus the transfer fee and background check ($30 is the cheapest I can find), so, just like going through a dealer, my bargain is now more expensive than the rifle is worth. I was just curious about gifting because technically I am not engaged in the business of dealing firearms. It does not seem worth the risk however and I don't want to break the laws.

SfcMac
November 14, 2010, 08:27 PM
They're going to charge you 30 bucks for a one minute yap with the DOJ? That sucks They can charge you for transfer because there is paperwork involved, but to do the NICS? That #01 is an F----n thief Tell him I called him that Give me his name and I'll report him to the ATF

Drachenstein
November 15, 2010, 07:17 AM
Give him one of your old Mosins and buy yourself one to replace it in your collection.

noelf2
November 15, 2010, 09:32 AM
You need to improve your collection! Do you like the mosin that you have? Do you want to try to get one that better meets your style and form of collectability? If you don't like the mosin you have, order a new one for yourself. If the new one is better for your collection, then dispose of the old one in a legal way. If the new one is worse than your current mosin, then it was worth a try. Dispose of the new one legally. You have to always be improving your collection, or your 03FFL is worthless.

SfcMac
November 15, 2010, 01:05 PM
Lieutenant I'm only on my first renewal with my C&R but I have a member of the family who works for the FBI, and I got a couple of returning Soldiers jobs with the ATF
If you remember anything, remember this. You are subject to inspection at the discretion of the Bureau of Alcohol tobacco and Firearms. If it happens you will be required to show them your bound book and possibly your collection. You will be responsible for every C&R weapon you have acquired and disposed of since you license was issued to you. You may sell to enhance/deplete your collection. If the ATF even thinks you're making a business out of it You're in deep crap. You cannot give them away except to the Police or lawful authority. You may leave them as part of your estate to any person lawfully allowed to own them. I left mine to my son Steve.To any #01,#03 FFL you may sell, buy, trade as your needs dictate. Once again I strongly urge you The extra expense is better than criminal charges. Go buy him a gun, let them do the NICS and he has his Christmas present Forget about using your C&R It's fool hardy and dangerous

Hardcase
November 15, 2010, 03:27 PM
You cannot give them away except to the Police or lawful authority.

SfcMac, I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying here, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Are you saying that you can't give a firearm away to anyone except for the police, etc.? If so, that's certainly not correct, at least under federal law. Further, federal law only requires the interaction of an FFL holder in the case of certain interstate transactions.

State and local laws, of course, may be more restrictive.

You will be responsible for every C&R weapon you have acquired and disposed of since you license was issued to you.

I don't mean to nitpick, but you're no more or less responsible for those firearms than any citizen is for any other firearm. You're responsible to accurately maintain a record of the firearms acquisition and disposal until you surrender the license, at which time that responsibility ends.

SfcMac
November 15, 2010, 04:12 PM
Ok Hardcase I may be somewhat in error there I would say we can probably give them to another C&R or #01 FFL, and this must be documented on the A&D book.You make a gift of a weapon to an unlicensed person and you are asking for Trouble. Hardcase without the slightest doubt, and I will stand on this You ARE absolutely responsible for EVERY Firearm in your possession.Every Law enforcement agency from the POlice to the Federal Bureau of Investigation will tell you that. So will the BATF. Owning firearms is serious business Hardcase, and it requires responsible people who are willing to obey the law.In the county I live in I am permitted to own all the rifles I have without having the C&R.What I like about this license I bought guns and had them shipped to my home. In one instance I bought a gun at the Allentown Gun show and carried it home in my car.There was a fully operational BAR there.If I had the money I could have bought it, and carried it home too These are some of the perks of this License, and I enjoy having it. This is why I'm going to protect it and advise others who have the license to protect it.

Hardcase
November 15, 2010, 05:11 PM
My point was that as an 03FFL holder, we carry neither more nor less responsibility for the firearms that we own than any other firearms owner. There is an extra documentation process that comes with the license, but the responsibility is the same for everyone.

I'm pretty sure that we're both making the same point - I don't mean to get hung up on semantics.

SfcMac
November 15, 2010, 05:23 PM
There You go You said it one way I said it another way, and we both arrived at same destination The Mechanics of Humanity versus the 1st ammendment Ain't it Great?? Have a good one my Brother :D:D

superpelly
November 15, 2010, 05:53 PM
Let him borrow it.

noelf2
November 15, 2010, 09:35 PM
I would say we can probably give them to another C&R or #01 FFL, and this must be documented on the A&D book.

In Virginia, I can give a gun to any Virginian (that can legally own a firearm) that I wish to, whether they have an FFL or not. Just because I have an 03FFL doesn't change that. I don't think there's any law that says I have to "sell" it to someone. I can take a loss on a gun if I don't like it for my collection. Say I buy 3 mosins online, sight unseen, and hope that at least one will be worthy of my collection. I log them all in my bound book when I get them, but only two are worthy of my collection. I tell my best friend (also a VA resident) about my new acquisitions and he says he'd like to have the one I don't want for my collection if I'm willing to part with it. I say, "hell, you helped me fix my roof, so you can have it bro" (notice that A&D pages don't have a block for purchase/sale price). I give it to him and enter the disposition in my bound book. I've done nothing wrong. Then I go to a gunshow the next weekend and see a Webley Fosbery for $100 bucks but I don't have cash with me. I ask if he'll trade a Mosin 91/30 for it. He says "Sure, I've always wanted one of those", and we trade. He doesn't have a FFL, but he proves to me that he's a VA resident and he can legally own the Mosin. We swap (what a sucker), and I now have my dream C&R gun (hey, I can dream). That's what collecting with an 03FFL is all about......

Cheapshooter
November 16, 2010, 11:49 AM
Why push the envelope when it comes to your license. If you want the discounts for others get an 01 Dealer ffl, and do everything by the book.
In todays political climate, with a very anti gun administration I hate to see people abusing their license. They are already out to close what they call the "gun show loophole". Why give them reason to close the "Curio & Relic loophole"?
They haven't come up with that one as I know of yet, but enough abuses of the licenses and they will.

SfcMac
November 16, 2010, 12:42 PM
There you go Cheapshooter You have your finger on the pulse,and you're right on track Some of these guys are their own worst enemies. They seem to think the Government and the Gun Grabbers are bluffing I value my C&R and I stay within the Parameters of my license I imagine that you do likewise

noelf2
November 16, 2010, 12:45 PM
Why push the envelope when it comes to your license.

+1, never abuse your license. Only use it to improve your collection. That's what it is for. Some of you seem to fear using your license and that is only from ignorance of the law. Thinking that you can only give an unwanted C&R acquisition to another FFL holder is "ignorance of the law". Follow the law and you have nothing to fear!

Never purchase a C&R gun/rifle for the "purpose" of giving it to someone else as a gift, or to profit from it. Buy all you want/can in order to improve your collection. Weed out the chaff as you see fit and within the confines of the LAW.

Buzzcook
November 16, 2010, 02:28 PM
Plan well ahead, buy the "gift" a year or two before the holiday.

SfcMac
November 16, 2010, 02:49 PM
This is my Final entry on this subject. Lieutenant You have to decide what is the right thing to do. It is your license and your life I take it you are still in the Army Remember the UCMJ, and how much of your life it governs. Thank you for your posts and God Bless you for your Commitment to our Country
God Speed SFC Mac US Army retired

noelf2
November 16, 2010, 03:54 PM
Lieutenant You have to decide what is the right thing to do.

+1 That is correct!

Plan well ahead, buy the "gift" a year or two before the holiday.
Do not use your 03FFL to buy a gift for someone. That is not lawful.