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overland
November 8, 2010, 01:29 PM
Using my special grade Garand (refurbished with new barrel) with the surplus CMP Greek ammo. Seeing a lot of variation on target shooting off the bench sandbagged at 100 yards. Seeing some low groupings, some high and some right of center. Is this unusual or expected for old military ammo?

nbkky71
November 8, 2010, 01:46 PM
The Greek HXP M2 ball ammo generally shoots well, so it's likely not the ammo causing the issue. That is, unless there are obvious signs of corrosion/damage to the ammo.

The first thing that I would check is to make sure that your gas plug has not come loose. A loose gas plug will case the gas cylinder to move and since the front sight is attached to the gas cylinder, that can cause your wandering shots/groups.

There are a number of other things to check as well, if the gas plug is tight. Suggestions are:

- damaged crown on the muzzle
- incorrectly fitted handguards
- operating rod binding in the stock
- poor stock/recevier fit

gdvan01
November 8, 2010, 02:21 PM
I've had no issues shooting the Greek surplus in mine, 16 rounds on a paper plate at 100yds. I did notice, however, that my groupings greatly increased in size at 200 and discovered the gas cylinder had some 'slop' in it.

It could be that the gas cylinder is a little worn and not fitting into the barrel splines tightly. You could try 'peening' the splines on the barrel a little to see if that resolves the issue (haven't done it to mine as of yet...) or possibly find a gas cylinder that is not as worn.

You should have to tap lightly on the gas cylinder to get it on and removing it regularly is not necessary as it does not have to be removed for cleaning.

Here's a link from CMP, your mileage may vary...

http://www.thecmp.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1392


See also:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/M1CylTight.htm

nbkky71
November 8, 2010, 03:53 PM
Something else came to mind when I saw that you were shooting off a sndbag rest...

Make sure that you are resting the rifle on the sandbag behind the front sling swivel. Do not rest the rifle on the forward handguard.

Resting the gun forward of the sling swivel can place pressure on the handguard/barrel and lead to wandering shots.

overland
November 8, 2010, 04:46 PM
Thanks for the ideas. The Garand is fast becoming my favorite rifle - and I have quite a few others.

Slamfire
November 8, 2010, 05:10 PM
Don’t expect bolt gun accuracy with a rack grade Garand. Don’t expect match accuracy with military surplus ammunition.

A service Garand was not a target rifle. It was less accurate than the 03’s of the era and stayed less accurate until match conditioning techniques, which included bedding with epoxy compounds and match barrels.

The late production NM Garands, built at Springfield Armory, no epoxy bedding, were acceptable if they shot within 3.5 MOA.

To shoot a perfect score all you had to do was hit the black of the 5V target.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/5V%20targets/Reduced200YD5V.jpg

This is what my "best" rack grade will do at 200 yards slow fire in a Garand Match. It will mostly hold the ten ring but at least it will hold the black.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/200SFM1Garand1504XXX.jpg

This target is 19 rounds at 100 yards prone from a rack grade Garand. This is not exceptional one way or the other. That is about what these will do.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/M1Garand19roundsprone5925621.jpg

The following are all 100 yard targets with different CMP rack grades, some with new barrels. None of these rifles will consistantly hold the black at 200 yards.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/M12245014BArebuild.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/M1HRA5687943JDsrifle.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/M1HRA4665252.jpg

It is the rare original GI stock that is not as loose as a goose and the action will slide around in them. Aftermarket stocks are much tighter and will give a slight accuracy improvement.

GI barrels are not that good. A good GI barrel is a rare thing. Criterion barrels are good, they are better than any GI barrel produced.

Loose handguards affect accuracy.

How tight is the rear sight aperature in the base? If you can push it with little effort than it is sliding around between shots.

overland
November 8, 2010, 06:35 PM
Thanks. That's really helpful to see. That's about how mine are grouping. I have to check the rear sight. Its not holding its tension. Needs to be tightened some.

buymore
November 8, 2010, 08:10 PM
You keep referring to your RACK Grade best targets. I read that it was a Special, not a rack grade. Don't the Special Grades have most ly or reparked parts? I would assume they aren't all sloppy fit either. I'm guessing part of the problem maybe binding in his new stock somewhere.

Did you try shooting it off the bench to see how it groups? I know a lot of the guys say they get terrible groups off the bench and fairly good groups prone using a sling.

Mine shoot different POA off a bench compared to prone using the sling.

I also took a file to the bands where the op rod was touching and it got better too. Basically you can google "tilt test" for the m1 Garand and check it over. This will at least eliminate that problem. Good luck

Slamfire
November 9, 2010, 07:28 PM
You keep referring to your RACK Grade best targets. I read that it was a Special, not a rack grade.

If I have time, this weekend I will shoot a Garand that I installed a Criterion barrel.

This is the second Criterion barrel on this "rack grade" rifle. The first barrel, I cut the chamber too deep. :o Still I found a bolt that barely closed on the field gage.

The other bolts easily closed on the field gage.

Took it out and shot it. I was not impressed with the groups. I used lubricated cases so I did not have any case head separation issues.

Still, I decided not to have a rifle around that could be sold to someone and cause them problems.

So I rebarreled it.

I have shot enough Garands to know that accurizing the things takes a lot more work than just a new barrel. A new Criterion barrel is a great start. A nice tight stock is a plus, then handguards, operating rod tracking, tightening gas cylinder, etc, etc, etc.

MythBuster
November 10, 2010, 07:03 PM
The fit of he stock and hand guards alone can turn a Garand from a 2MOA rifle into a 12 MOA rifle or even worse.

A OP rod hitting the stock can send fliers as much as 15 inches high at only 100 yards.

Stock and handguard problems can cause a HUGE difference in zero from a cold barrel to a hot one.

chris in va
November 10, 2010, 10:38 PM
I have one too. Don't shoot it for accuracy, shoot it because it's dripping with history. Offer to let others try it out, especially older kids. Give the more enthusiastic ones a clip as a 'souvenir'.

BudW
November 11, 2010, 10:02 PM
I just purchased a Garand CAI with a Danish barrel synthetic stock are the Danish made barrels considered good?

Tim R
November 12, 2010, 04:14 PM
The VAR barrels are some of the better M-1 barrels. The CAI reciever which is not GI and may or may not be in spec.

I would start over and get a M-1 from the CMP. They are the real deal.

MythBuster
November 12, 2010, 09:25 PM
That Century receiver could even be dangerous. The "bridge" that prevents it from firing out of battery is usually so far out of spec on these it is scary.

rjarms
November 12, 2010, 09:32 PM
With the new barrel it rules out many factors. What is the grouping measurement that your seeing? If it's 3" or 3 MOA than that's acceptable. Loose gas cylinder will cause wide groupings or rubbing op rod will cause "Flyers". The ammo is high quality so it's not that. I would also check that the crown was not nicked.

Also the post above about where you rest your rifle is important. Rest it on the man stock NOT the forward hand guard.. Check to see your brass is ejected in the 1 o'Clock position, if not, it may be op rod rubbing or gas port issue.

overland
November 13, 2010, 09:01 AM
I went through it, cleaned it thoroughly and lubed everything again. I noticed like you said that the gas plug comes loose after a few clips. Once tighten, I got good groups of 2-3 inches off the sandbags. Then they get bigger as the gas plug starts to come loose. That might have been the problem. Did not notice anything else wrong - yet.

robmkivseries70
November 13, 2010, 01:27 PM
Good Day,
Here is a tip I picked up some where, which is to store your Garand's or M1A for that matter with the trigger guard unlatched. This removes the pressure on the wood and prevents the fiber of the wood from being compressed resulting in a potentially loose action. I'll have to try this over a period of time to see how the zero is affected. HTH
Best,
Rob

BudW
November 13, 2010, 04:09 PM
Thanks for the heads up Tim and Myth Buster I took the CAI Garand out and it would not fire one round or eject, returned it today needless to say.