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View Full Version : is it a curio? is it worth not fixing up?


k31
October 26, 2010, 01:20 AM
i was given a chance to clean out my wife's grandparents house tonight and fount a model 99e savage .243 and a Winchester model 1894 30-30
they are both in good shape as far as the metal and bluing but the 99e was in dire need of stock work (i love old guns but love to shoot them even more) the lacquer was chipped wood was dented scraped mangled it need fix so i could enjoy shooting it :D but i have not touched the 94 yet i read it may be a collector the butt plate is steel so i assume it was before either the 50s or 60s when ever they changed production it has about 90% bluing and the stock is definitely used but still ok (im fighting an internal battle not to clean it up)
are either one of these rifles worth more than 500$ and how can i check the year they were made?

Tamara
October 26, 2010, 07:42 AM
Here is a resource that claims to let you date your Model 94 by serial number: Winchester Model 1894/94 Dates of Manufacture (http://www.savage99.com/winchester1894_dates.htm).

Bill DeShivs
October 26, 2010, 08:13 AM
Why can't you shoot the 99 with a scraped stock? Properly refinishing a stock is best left to a pro. The 99 may also be a collector's item.

Mike Irwin
October 26, 2010, 08:29 AM
The 99e in .243 was added to Savage's line up around 1960, IIRC, maybe a bit earlier, but not before 1954. It's a fairly common model in a fairly common chambering, and not particularly collectible, but oh so very useful.

Savage really started crapping out on the wood they used on 99 stocks around that time, going from walnut to a variety of hardwoods, including birch, that pretty much looked awful.

Refinishing a gunstock isn't a hard thing to do if you've ever refinished any furniture at all, but often refinishing a birch stock is an exercise in frustration as the wood doesn't want to take the stain all that well. Leather dyes can often be used and will do a very good job of covering the grain evenly.

k31
October 26, 2010, 08:58 AM
i noticed the wood change mine had an amazing burl through on half of the stock but the fore grip was a totally different type of wood the grain did not match at all when it is finished i will post a pic of the two different grains
im not too worried about collector value because ive already collected it i just want to give an old gun a new suite, make it him feel young again:)
the next handfull i refinish will be to learn to do it professionally i kinda wanted to just get the basics down on some of my more mas produced and easier to find rifles

30-30remchester
October 26, 2010, 08:50 PM
First you stated you an 1894 Winchester then you stated you had a 94 Winchester. They are different guns yet the same. IIRC Winchester quit using the 1894 markings in @1924. After this they were simply marked model 94. Earlier model 1894's bring much higher prices than model 94's. If you have a 94 built after 1950 the going price in the condition you described is @$450. The Savage 99 E in 243 Win, was their economy model with Birch wood stock instead of the exensive walnut.

carguychris
October 27, 2010, 09:09 AM
irst you stated you an 1894 Winchester then you stated you had a 94 Winchester... IIRC Winchester quit using the 1894 markings in @1924.
Winchester truncated their year-numbered models to 2 digits in February of 1919.

FWIW many early post-switchover rifles can be identified by examining the spacing between the word "MODEL" and the number; Winchester management did not want to waste recently-replaced dies for roll-marking several of their models, so workers simply ground off the preceding "18" or "19" on the dies, leaving a prominent empty space. :) As the modified dies wore out, they were replaced with new dies that had the proper spacing.

k31
October 27, 2010, 12:53 PM
thank you for filling me in i didn't realize there was a difference in an 1894 and simply the 94 i am still learning and will hopefully keep learning
from the website given in the earlier post my 94 is dated 1959 so i assume the changes were made to the design in the 60s seeing as mine still has the steel but plate but i still have some looking up to do with the savage 99e
i believe the rear stock on the savage is made of burly maple and i might not have originally come on the rifle the previous owner put a pachmeyer pad on it that looks fairly new either it was put on to a new rear stock or the rifle was simply made with an amazing burly maple stock but the for grip is very similar to the grain in my k31 i think it might be beech??? again i dont know much and am looking for advice i still have lots to learn

Scorch
October 27, 2010, 01:59 PM
my 94 is dated 1959 so i assume the changes were made to the design in the 60s
The change from Model 1894 to Model 94 occurred in the 1920s. Nothing major, just changing the name to keep people from thinking the rifle was an old design. There were other changes, hence the names: early Model 1894 without patent dates on the barrel, made prior to 1896; Model 1894 without barrel proofmarks, made prior to 1905; Model 1894s made from 1905 to around 1927, probably the best-looking and best-finished of all 1894s, offered in a staggering variety of models with many options; pre-war 94 (note the name change), made from 1927 to 1943, most 94s turned out were carbines as Winchester moved away from making rifles and a lot of different models of the 94; pre-64 94s are the WW2 to 1963 guns, where the receiver machining and the shape of the tang were changed, marking the beginning of Winchester's production improvement moves; transition/new/post-64 94 where Winchester made a radical redesign, moved away from machined parts to stampings and forgings, started using screws as pivot pins, and many other changes; and then USRAC Winchester 94s, which include the Angle Eject models.

And now, we brings us, the NEW Japanese Winchester 1894 Classic rifles (with metric threads and lawyer junk added to keep us from hurting ourselves)!

James K
October 27, 2010, 02:48 PM
Winchester found out the hard way that using the date of introduction as the model number was not smart. The first year, it's fine, but as time goes on, the company is advertising how old their design really is.

Jim

carguychris
October 27, 2010, 05:09 PM
The change from Model 1894 to Model 94 occurred in the 1920s.
February 1919 actually; see above.
There were other changes, hence the names: early Model 1894 without patent dates on the barrel, made prior to 1896; Model 1894 without barrel proofmarks, made prior to 1905; Model 1894s made from 1905 to around 1927, probably the best-looking and best-finished of all 1894s...
Also, during the 20s and 30s, Winchester offered the Model 55, a budget Model 94 with (IIRC) a 5-shot magazine, a plain front blade sight and rear buckhorn sight with none of the options offered on the Model 94, only a couple of optional barrel lengths (the most popular ones), a plain non-checkered stock, and a plain buttplate. Despite being a downgraded bare-bones budget model, the Model 55 is pretty valuable nowadays because relatively few were sold in comparison to the Model 94 over its lifetime.

k31
October 28, 2010, 01:30 AM
these are the finished pics of the stock it turned out nice at least i though it did
the second pic is the grain in the fore grip it is very different from the butt stock could that be because of the way the wood was cut? or is its simply a different kind of wood?

Scorch
October 28, 2010, 11:16 AM
the second pic is the grain in the fore grip it is very different from the butt stock could that be because of the way the wood was cut? or is its simply a different kind of wood?
Probably the same kind of wood, just from a different tree or different location on the tree, and obviously sawed differently.

Sawing wood can hide or emphasize grain in wood. Most gunstocks and furniture wood is quarter-sawn, most lumber is flat-sawn. Since figured wood sells for more than straight-grained wood, a sawyer (the man who runs the big ripsaw in a sawmill) can make the saw make more money or less simply by identifying premium wood before it gets ripped into boards and sidelining the log. FWIW, the sawyer is one of the best paid positions in a sawmill.

bedbugbilly
October 29, 2010, 05:55 PM
k31 - my background is in cabinet making so I'll speak from that angle in regards to your birch stock. I've built many custome kitchens out of birch - usually my source was able to supply "yellow birch" designating a specific type of birch. There is all "red birch", etc. I actually think you did an excellent job on the stocks - they look great. In finishing birch (any species), it has a tendency to "cloud" when stained. You have to remember that this is a "production" gun, not a "custom" gun. The butt stocks are probably manufactured on one line, the forestocks on another. I cannot speak postively about that but I imagine that it works that way. Therefore, the gun manufacturer receives rough buttstock blanks and rough forestock blanks in quantity from a supplier - probably by the pallet load. They are shaped, sanded, finished, etc. and then come together at final assembly. I would imagine that the gun manufacturers do it the same way as large cabinet manufacturers. No two trees are alike nor do they take the same finish in like manner. To compensate for this and that no two pieces of wood take stain the same, a "toner" is used. Simply put, this is a spray on type of "stain" finish that evens the color out to the same shade so that you don't have a "blatant" difference in shade tones. Not all kitchen cabinets are made at the same factory location - for instance, sink units, and pantry units may be made in a factory in one state and the upper units at a different factory in a different state. The use of toners insure that the cabinets will alll match. As I said, I don't know how some of the gun manufacturers do it when it comes to stocks, but I would imagine that some may even sub-contract to other suppliers to furnish them the stocks all prefinished so that they arrive at the factory, ready for final assembly. As I said, you did a great job and I'm sure you'll enjoy the rifle and it will mean even more because fo where it came from in the family. Good luck and enjoy! :)

Hardcase
October 29, 2010, 11:08 PM
bbb, speaking of a stain that evens out the finish, take a look at number two from the bottom:

http://www.fluidlight.com/images/guns/winchesters_2.jpg

If it looks kind of orange to you, you should see it in person. Crazy things were happening at Winchester in the early 1970s. This winter's project is to strip the wood and give it a more "Winchestery" finish.