PDA

View Full Version : Thinning Ballistol?


olyinaz
October 19, 2010, 02:13 PM
Does anyone know what oil or thinner would be good for thinning Ballistol (something other than water)?

I love the stuff but I don't always need it to be so thick so I'd like to make up a bottle of the stuff thinned about 50% with a spirit. Problem is I've noted that Ballistol does not always mix well with everything. I can do the trial-by-error thing but it's always nice to look for known success first.

Thanks,
Oly

Pahoo
October 19, 2010, 03:24 PM
Do a search in here and you will find many references. I believe I recall one that listed distilled water. So I thought what the heck and mixed a little with tap water and what a mess that turned out to be. I have been using it full strength and I know that it can be dilluted so one large can will last forever.
I'll be keeping an eye on this one ... ;)



Be Safe !!!

mykeal
October 19, 2010, 04:08 PM
Huh. I've always just used tap water.

I made up a bunch of 'batches' of various ratios for use with the Dutch Schoultz Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System, everything from 5:1 up to 9:1 about a year ago. Soaked some ticking strips in each and let them dry for use as lubed patches. I still have most of the original mixtures and they appear to be intact.

Anyway, tap water is all I've ever used and it appears to work just fine, at least for use as a patch lube.

olyinaz
October 19, 2010, 05:04 PM
Guys please, I said something besides water. I'm looking for a spirit or thinner that's known to mix well with Ballistol.

Oly

jmortimer
October 19, 2010, 09:26 PM
I am a dedicated Ballistol user and, as you know, it was designed to be mixed with water. Mixing it with some toxic substance does not make sense to me as there are many other toxic products/mixes out there that would probably work better. The beauty of Ballistol, the original "CLP," is that it is non-toxic, can be mixed with water, and does not hurt, but actually helps metal, plastic, wood, leather, house plants, etc. I would look in another direction if you intend to "toxicify" Ballistol.

Wildalaska
October 19, 2010, 10:28 PM
I am a dedicated Ballistol user and, as you know, it was designed to be mixed with water. Mixing it with some toxic substance does not make sense to me as there are many other toxic products/mixes out there that would probably work better. The beauty of Ballistol, the original "CLP," is that it is non-toxic, can be mixed with water, and does not hurt, but actually helps metal, plastic, wood, leather, house plants, etc. I would look in another direction if you intend to "toxicify" Ballistol.

Ditto. Water.

WildifsomethingisnotcorrectjustacceptitandmoveonAlaska ™©2002-2010

Fingers McGee
October 19, 2010, 10:49 PM
I am a dedicated Ballistol user and, as you know, it was designed to be mixed with water. Mixing it with some toxic substance does not make sense to me as there are many other toxic products/mixes out there that would probably work better. The beauty of Ballistol, the original "CLP," is that it is non-toxic, can be mixed with water, and does not hurt, but actually helps metal, plastic, wood, leather, house plants, etc. I would look in another direction if you intend to "toxicify" Ballistol.

My sentiments exactly.

Pahoo
October 20, 2010, 09:53 AM
I will have to try some distilled water as my tap water does not work. ... :mad:
We have hard water and perhaps, that is my problem. Will also try soft water and see where that takes me. I also do not see the practical aspects of using a solvent. .... ;)



Be Safe !!!

jmortimer
October 20, 2010, 10:54 AM
I'm no expert but for general gun cleaning and protection of wood, metal, plastic and leather I would not dilute it. But for blackpowder cleaning and other specific uses listed on the container I would use water as directed. I just love that Ballistol.

olyinaz
October 21, 2010, 04:09 AM
I am a dedicated Ballistol user and, as you know, it was designed to be mixed with water. Mixing it with some toxic substance does not make sense to me as there are many other toxic products/mixes out there that would probably work better. The beauty of Ballistol, the original "CLP," is that it is non-toxic, can be mixed with water, and does not hurt, but actually helps metal, plastic, wood, leather, house plants, etc. I would look in another direction if you intend to "toxicify" Ballistol.

Hogwash. The "non-toxic" nature of Ballistol is massively over hyped pretty much the same way most of its miracle claims are. Don't believe me? Drink a pint of it and I promise to attend your funeral and lay some flowers.

Major components of Ballistol include buytl and propyl alcohols which do not fall into anyones notion of "non-toxic". Ballistol is COMPLETELY toxic the same way that methanol or isopropyl alcohol is. It will kill you dead if you get enough of it in your system and long term absorption of it's toxic chemical constituents over time will surely cause CNS damage the same as methanol. One could argue that it's less toxic than acetone or MEK or gasoline etc., but that's like saying that it's also less toxic than cyanide or arsenic - big deal, poison is still poisonous.

The only claims regarding the stuff that matter is that it emulsifies well with water (useful for BP shooters) and it neutralizes corrosive salts (useful for BP and corrosive ammo shooters). Those are EXCELLENT properties and form the basis of why it is and should be popular stuff. Everything else it claims is marketing hype and grandiose hype at that.

As much as I like the stuff the truth is it's also expensive and rather THICK and that is why I would like to find something to cut it with. I do not need it to be so thick when what I wish to use it for is a light spritz on guns for flushing or wiping down, and I dang sure don't want any WATER in it for many of the general purposes I use it for. I had high hopes for ethanol (now THERE is a chemical that is "non-toxic") but that did not pan out and since I don't wish to work through every spirit out there so I was hoping that someone here already knew of one that would work. Simple question! Or so I thought...

Oly

madcratebuilder
October 21, 2010, 09:08 AM
Some Ballistol info

"BALLISTOL has been around in Europe for over three generations. Originally invented for military use it became a household word in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Millions of users have experimented with BALLISTOL and found new surprising applications for it, some of which reach into the field of veterinary and even human medicine. In the United States the law prohibits a seller to advertise or recommend a product for use as a drug in human or veterinary medicine, unless the Food and Drug Administration have approved it for these uses. BALLISTOL has not been submitted for approval by the FDA as a drug. In Germany a modified formula of BALLISTOL, NEO-BALLISTOL, is admitted for use in veterinary and human medicine. NEO-BALLISTOL is not sold in the USA, Canada or Mexico.

WARNING: BALLISTOL MUST BE USED AS INDICATED IN THE CONSUMER INSTRUCTIONS ON THIS PAGE AND ON THE REVERSE PANEL OF ITS CONTAINER. DO NOT USE BALLISTOL AS A DRUG. BALLISTOL IS NOT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION."

Ingredients

(according to a specification from December 2002)

* pharmaceutical white oil: CAS RN 8042-47-5
* Oleic acid: CAS RN 112-80-1
* C-5 alcohols: CAS RN 78-83-1; CAS RN 137-32-6; CAS RN 100-51-6
* different essential oils to perfume Ballistol

From the Ballistol MSDS

BALLISTOL
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET (cont.)
TECHNICAL DATA SHEETS FOR BALLISTOL
Contents
Ballistol contains medicinal grade mineral oil, alkaline salts of oleic acid, several alcohols, Benzyl Acetate and an oil from
vegetal seeds. The mineral oil is unchlorinated and conforms to the specifications of US Pharmacopeia XX.

Joe Demko
October 21, 2010, 09:24 AM
The only claims regarding the stuff that matter is that it emulsifies well with water (useful for BP shooters) and it neutralizes corrosive salts (useful for BP and corrosive ammo shooters). Those are EXCELLENT properties and form the basis of why it is and should be popular stuff. Everything else it claims is marketing hype and grandiose hype at that.


Your grasp of chemistry seems a bit dodgey. Corrosive salts aren't "neutralized" by Ballistol or any other product. What must be done with the salts is that they must be dissolved and physically removed from the gun. That's exactly what the water in aqueous cleaners, like the WWII GI bore solvent and the various "moose milk" Ballistol dilutions, does. Plain water will remove the salts just fine on its own.

Regarding death from ingesting too much Ballistol: you will also die if you ingest too much water, too much table salt, too much nutmeg, or too much of just about anything. Toxicity is a matter of degree and Ballistol, absent you doing something completely stupid like trying to drink a bottle of it, is non-toxic for all practical purposes.

jmortimer
October 21, 2010, 09:58 AM
What Joe Demko and Madcratebuilder said.

olyinaz
October 21, 2010, 01:21 PM
C-5 alcohols: CAS RN 78-83-1; CAS RN 137-32-6; CAS RN 100-51-6

The only thing "dodgy" going on around here is anyone who would argue that the above chemicals are "non-toxic"...which had ZERO to do with the OP.

As painful as it's been at least one thing is clear: None of you has even the foggiest answer to the question asked.

Oly

Wildalaska
October 21, 2010, 01:45 PM
As painful as it's been at least one thing is clear: None of you has even the foggiest answer to the question asked.

On the contrary, you just dont like the answers:rolleyes:

WildormaybethequestionisabsurdAlaska ™©2002-2010

Joe Demko
October 21, 2010, 01:56 PM
The only thing "dodgy" going on around here is anyone who would argue that the above chemicals are "non-toxic"...which had ZERO to do with the OP.
Okay, Dr. Science, how toxic are they? What is the median lethal dose? How exactly do they damage the body? Must they be ingested or can they be absorbed through contact with the skin? Are they dangerous in acute doses, chronic exposure, or both?
You've made some powerfully disturbing assertions, chucko, time to back them up.

olyinaz
October 21, 2010, 02:33 PM
On the contrary, you just dont like the answers

What "answers"? Off topic and pointless replies is more like it.

Q: "Does anyone know what oil or thinner would be good for thinning Ballistol (something other than water)?"

R: "Do a search in here and you will find many references. I believe I recall one that listed distilled water."

Or

R: "Huh? I've always just used tap water."

Yeah, "Huh?" is exactly right.

Okay, Dr. Science, how toxic are they? What is the median lethal dose? How exactly do they damage the body? Must they be ingested or can they be absorbed through contact with the skin? Are they dangerous in acute doses, chronic exposure, or both? You've made some powerfully disturbing assertions, chucko, time to back them up.

I'm no Dr. Science but I do know how to use the google and I suggest YOU do the same thing and be thorough about it. NONE of which has a dang thing to do with the original quesiton:

Does anyone know what oil or thinner would be good for thinning Ballistol (something other than water)?

Oly

Joe Demko
October 21, 2010, 02:45 PM
That, over there, is a hole in the ground...just in case you were confused.

Wildalaska
October 21, 2010, 02:54 PM
Does anyone know what oil or thinner would be good for thinning Ballistol (something other than water)?

There is none. It is designed to be "thinned" (if thats even necessary) with water.

WildsonowitsoverAlaska ™©2002-2010

ClemBert
October 21, 2010, 03:57 PM
Oly,

I think you have your answer. No one here knows what else could be used to dilute Ballistol other than water. This is probably because Ballistol is meant to be diluted with water. On the Ballistol bottle it shows dilution ratios. Water is the only thing mentioned. I supposed one way to look at this is to try and figure out what can be used to dilute mineral oil since that is the closest thing that Ballistol seems to be like. The answer is probably going to be mineral spirits. Have you tried that before?

Joe Demko
October 21, 2010, 04:34 PM
Since your chemistry isn't all it could be, let me point you in the right direction.
The basic rule for solvents/solutes is that "like dissolves like." Polar solutes require a polar solvent. Non-polar solutes require a non-polar solvent. Water, due to its partially polar nature, is sometimes described as a universal solvent. Ballistol doesn't dissolve in water, though, it forms an emulsion thanks to some of the ingredients.
So, what you need to do on this pointless little quest of yours, is find an appropriate solvent for mineral oil. Mineral oil is a non-polar hydrocarbon. Benzene and carbon tetra-chloride are a couple examples of non-polar solvents.
You'd be much better served just to switch to a different product than to try to "thin" Ballistol with something other than water, Dr. Science.

nanuk-O-dah-Nort
October 21, 2010, 11:23 PM
:barf:

Hardy
October 24, 2010, 11:12 PM
OK just one question. I use B/ w/ springwater. You can buy case of sw in plastic bottes for next to nothing!Pour out a couple of ozs and refill w/ B. Now it works good cleaning firearms ,polishing furniture and etc and course vinyl and leather in your car. The problem is the smell w/ this. HEY my wife thinks if there was an essential oil/scent/ she would use it more. So -not worrin bout guns and sporting stuff. what would you scent a 6/1 ratio for the little lady. That is a good ques:) But gotta be universal smell for everyone.:)

Hardy
October 31, 2010, 07:40 PM
Seriously, is there something you can put in a 6/1 ballestol mix that is smell friendly? When using it in close quarters etc

arcticap
October 31, 2010, 11:07 PM
Tincture of wintergreen is what gives Bore Butter its Bengay aroma and that doesn't seem to hurt its effectiveness any. And a [few] dozen drops or so of wintergreen oil can be substituted in place of the tincture. But there are also plenty of other oils that can be added in different combinations to produce a more custom aroma.
Hmmmm....perhaps it could be made to smell like pepperment schnapps or spearmint gum? :D

tom2pigs
March 6, 2012, 09:16 PM
Oly, have you found anything better than water yet? Like you, I'm hesitant cleaning metal with water and just started trying this product. If it cleans my BP with water and no rusting I would be happy, surprised, but happy.

dlb0412
March 6, 2012, 09:19 PM
Where can i buy ballistol.

Strafer Gott
March 6, 2012, 09:36 PM
I bought mine from the LGS. Nothing like it for muzzle loaders. It cleans those nasty little chambers cut into the GPR breech plug factory fresh. It greatly
reduces the number of patches to dry the bore. I never see flash rust with Ballistol. I use it cause it drys nice and flat, none of the Hershey bar look. Just don't use it for dessert topping.

dlbarr
March 7, 2012, 01:22 AM
Simple question! Or so I thought...

Oly

OK, I give in.... if I was you I'd use paint thinner. :D

Willie Sutton
March 7, 2012, 11:10 PM
Midway sells it... buy the liquid, not the spray.

Cleaning metal with water is easy... use it hot, let the metal heat up, and it'll dry in a minute once you wipe it down. Oil and forget about it.

I use Ballistol with great success. Water is the way you dilute it... <sorry to the OP, but it's true>


Willie

.

goffer@earthlink.net
March 9, 2012, 01:47 PM
I use distilled water with Ballistol also and agree it makes a thick concoction. But it works so well on my BP firearms it is worth the effort to wipe clean before firing after storing. Just checked my BP rifles and revolver that were fired last fall and cleaned with recommended distilled water and Ballisltol then stored under the bed last fall in one case and in rifle cases and a silicone sock in another area. None of the pieces showed any rust this month or during periodic checks during the winter.

Andy Griffith
March 9, 2012, 10:41 PM
I don't understand why someone hasn't come up with a homemade concoction equivalent that is much cheaper. Nearly every other cleaner on the market has it's counterpart homemade recipe.

So...what is "white pharmaceutical oil" exactly? Mineral oil??? I'm asking as I have no earthly idea.
What kind of alcohols???

I'm all for trying to mix up a batch.

mykeal
March 9, 2012, 11:25 PM
Yes, basically pharmaceutical white oil is food grade mineral oil; food grade implies purity standards that ensure no toxic contaminants are included. And it's relatively expensive stuff for that reason.

However, you don't need food grade mineral oil. Machinist's cutting oil, used to cool metal cutting tools, will work just as well.

olyinaz
March 10, 2012, 03:41 AM
Oly, have you found anything better than water yet? Like you, I'm hesitant cleaning metal with water and just started trying this product. If it cleans my BP with water and no rusting I would be happy, surprised, but happy.

Yes, "better" for some of my purposes at least. I found a truly odorless mineral spirit at an art shop. I guess it's used for thinning oil paints by arteests and since it's intended to not be foul smelling (and make your house stink like a jet fuel truck) it was reasonably close to what I was after all along. The "odorless" spirits or thinner that they sell at the hardware stores stinks just like kerosene or jet fuel to me and I have no idea how they get off calling that product "odorless".

At any rate, it thinned my Ballistol down very nicely, so I now have three spray bottles of the stuff on the bench. One is a water mixture ("moose milk" or whatever you guys call it) that I use whenever it's appropriate, another is straight Ballistol that I use mostly for lubrication and rust prevention, and the third is my thinned down mixture that I use for gun cleaning and flushing parts off etc., or when I don't want water getting into wood or involved in what I'm doing.

What I had hoped to find was a non-toxic alcohol or some chemical of that sort in order to keep the relatively non-toxic nature of Ballistol intact, and while that's probably easy for someone somewhere to do I got zero help here regarding it, no good suggestions elsewhere, so I just decided to give up on the non-toxic part and go with the mineral spirits route once I found one that was virtually odorless.

Oh and thanks again to Dr. Unhelpful for deciding for me what's "pointless" while engaged in being a jerk just for grins. After all, if you're gonna be useless, you might as well be an a-hole at it.

Cheers,
Oly

btmckinney
March 16, 2012, 09:32 AM
I found a place in Oklahoma to get ballistol at a good price and with the 16 oz. can, you also get a sprayer with it at no cost. I only use the non aerosol version. The only draw back is that they will not accept a debit/credit card orders unless the order is over a certain amount. They ship first class mail so the expense is low. Cost of a 16 oz. can is only $10 with a sray nozzle. The owners are cowboy action shooters also and pleasant to deal with. Contact by e mail @ www.cowboyshooterssupply.com & take a look at their other products or call ph# (580) 873-2663. Best price I have found.

B.L.E.
March 16, 2012, 10:09 PM
* C-5 alcohols: CAS RN 78-83-1; CAS RN 137-32-6; CAS RN 100-51-6


Alcohol with five carbon atoms in the molecule is known as amyl alcohol and is not considered highly toxic. Small amounts of it occurs naturally in fermented beverages and it is one of the higher order alcohols that make up fusel oil.

The more carbon atoms in the molecule, the less water soluble and the more oily the alcohol tends to be, cholesterol, for example is a fat soluble alcohol.