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Delmar
October 14, 2010, 08:29 PM
I played a bit with making my own BP about a year ago, but somebody on another forum told me that the law change in Feb 2010 and it is no longer legal to make your own. Anybody know about a change?

Mike Irwin
October 14, 2010, 09:21 PM
First I've heard of it.

Hardcase
October 14, 2010, 10:21 PM
Perhaps it is a local law. As far as I know, this (http://www.atf.gov/publications/explosives-arson/) is the authoritative answer to black powder manufacturing questions.

Andy Griffith
October 14, 2010, 10:24 PM
It isn't illegal, I don't believe, but it certainly can be very dangerous! :eek:

One spark, and *blam!*

http://www.abrsm.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/violin.gif

hickstick_10
October 14, 2010, 11:15 PM
Think about the social implications should your neighbors or others find out.

As good clean fun as BP is, not many people look kindly or with understanding and tolerance to a man who makes his own low grade explosives.

But hey, you wanna be painted with that brush, its your legal right.

HiBC
October 14, 2010, 11:25 PM
Just my opinion:Unless there is a very compelling reason,homebrew anything that goes boom is ill advised.
The risk/reward just does not add up.Over my lifetime a number of commercial BP plants have gone up.If you are going to do it anyway,I suggest very small batches as a process experiment.
There is not much future in practicing something you can only screw up once

Sheikyourbootie
October 14, 2010, 11:37 PM
You'll put an eye out!

Jimmy10mm
October 14, 2010, 11:49 PM
The fellow who invented Pyrodex was blown up in one of his plants back in the seventies IIRC. Reading either Earl Narramore or maybe it was Phil Sharpe, on the making of primers was a real eye opener.They wrote some classic books on reloading years ago. Reading that made me handle any of this stuff very carefully and I wouldn't dream of making my own BP. .

Ideal Tool
October 15, 2010, 01:41 AM
Hello, Del Mar, There are a few books out on the early American powder Mfg. plants. A most interesting read....In there, they tell of how every board on the outside walls were nailed from the outside & nails wern't driven in all the way home. There was a good reason for this...Boards back then took a lot longer to make than today (No chainsaws) and so were expensive. The company officials new it was just a matter of time before a batch blew, the loosely nailed boards could be pickup up relatively undamaged. I doubt the same could be said of the workers!

mrappe
October 15, 2010, 05:19 AM
The regulations are at http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5400-7.pdf I don't think that it is illegal as per the Federal Government, but I have not read the paper closely. I think you have to have more than 50 lbs and have plans to distribute it before you need a license. About 20 years ago I made some small batches for model rocket engines (about 1 to 2 lbs at a time) and I was following a book that stressed safety and I felt that it was not any more risky that dealing with a 1 lb can of Goex today but even that can be dangerous if you don't follow some common sense rules. If you do decide to make some make sure that you understand the safe way to do it. Check out this site:
http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/high-powered-black-powder.asp

Rifleman1776
October 15, 2010, 08:31 AM
The fellow who invented Pyrodex was blown up in one of his plants back in the seventies

Yes, his name was Dan Pawlak. I knew him, he was a fine person and brilliant scientist. Big loss.

spclPatrolGroup
October 15, 2010, 09:46 AM
A buddy built his own single shot pistol in highschool metal shop back in the day. Man have times changed.

wogpotter
October 15, 2010, 11:06 AM
Perhaps it is a local law.
That's be my guess. Here MD it already is if you live in anything other than a single-family dwelling. Even smokeless is restricted because of fire regulations.:rolleyes:

zullo74
October 15, 2010, 05:24 PM
A buddy built his own single shot pistol in high school metal shop back in the day. Man have times changed.

That's NOT illegal then or now, under Federal law, AFAIK.

darkgael
October 15, 2010, 07:45 PM
Making your own is interesting but, ultimately, more trouble than it is worth. You need quality ingredients and you need a ball mill.
I had lab quality sulfur and saltpeter; made my own charcoal.
The stuff went bang but Goex is way better and cheaper.
Pete

Delmar
October 16, 2010, 03:24 AM
This guy was talking about a change that took place in federal law as of Feb 1,2010, and he sited this
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 40 > § 842

§ 842. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(1) to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in explosive materials without a license issued under this chapter;
(2) knowingly to withhold information or to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive for the purpose of obtaining explosive materials, or a license, permit, exemption, or relief from disability under the provisions of this chapter;
(3) other than a licensee or permittee knowingly—
(A) to transport, ship, cause to be transported, or receive any explosive materials; or
(B) to distribute explosive materials to any person other than a licensee or permittee; or
(4) who is a holder of a limited permit—
(A) to transport, ship, cause to be transported, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any explosive materials; or
(B) to receive explosive materials from a licensee or permittee, whose premises are located outside the State of residence of the limited permit holder, or on more than 6 separate occasions, during the period of the permit, to receive explosive materials from 1 or more licensees or permittees whose premises are located within the State of residence of the limited permit holder.
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensee or permittee to knowingly distribute any explosive materials to any person other than—
(1) a licensee;
(2) a holder of a user permit; or
(3) a holder of a limited permit who is a resident of the State where distribution is made and in which the premises of the transferor are located.
(c) It shall be unlawful for any licensee to distribute explosive materials to any person who the licensee has reason to believe intends to transport such explosive materials into a State where the purchase, possession, or use of explosive materials is prohibited or which does not permit its residents to transport or ship explosive materials into it or to receive explosive materials in it.
(d) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to distribute explosive materials to any individual who:
(1) is under twenty-one years of age;
(2) has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(3) is under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(4) is a fugitive from justice;
(5) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(6) has been adjudicated a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;
(7) is an alien, other than an alien who—
(A) is lawfully admitted for permanent residence (as defined in section 101(a)(20) of the Immigration and Nationality Act);
(B) is in lawful nonimmigrant status, is a refugee admitted under section 207 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1157), or is in asylum status under section 208 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1158), and—
(i) is a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government, as determined by the Secretary [1] in consultation with the Secretary of State, entering the United States on official law enforcement business, and the shipping, transporting, possession, or receipt of explosive materials is in furtherance of this official law enforcement business; or
(ii) is a person having the power to direct or cause the direction of the management and policies of a corporation, partnership, or association licensed pursuant to section 843 (a), and the shipping, transporting, possession, or receipt of explosive materials is in furtherance of such power;
(C) is a member of a North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) or other friendly foreign military force, as determined by the Attorney General in consultation with the Secretary of Defense, who is present in the United States under military orders for training or other military purpose authorized by the United States and the shipping, transporting, possession, or receipt of explosive materials is in furtherance of the authorized military purpose; or
(D) is lawfully present in the United States in cooperation with the Director of Central Intelligence, and the shipment, transportation, receipt, or possession of the explosive materials is in furtherance of such cooperation;
(8) has been discharged from the armed forces under dishonorable conditions; [2]
(9) having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced the citizenship of that person.
(e) It shall be unlawful for any licensee knowingly to distribute any explosive materials to any person in any State where the purchase, possession, or use by such person of such explosive materials would be in violation of any State law or any published ordinance applicable at the place of distribution.
(f) It shall be unlawful for any licensee or permittee willfully to manufacture, import, purchase, distribute, or receive explosive materials without making such records as the Attorney General may by regulation require, including, but not limited to, a statement of intended use, the name, date, place of birth, social security number or taxpayer identification number, and place of residence of any natural person to whom explosive materials are distributed. If explosive materials are distributed to a corporation or other business entity, such records shall include the identity and principal and local places of business and the name, date, place of birth, and place of residence of the natural person acting as agent of the corporation or other business entity in arranging the distribution.
(g) It shall be unlawful for any licensee or permittee knowingly to make any false entry in any record which he is required to keep pursuant to this section or regulations promulgated under section 847 of this title.
(h) It shall be unlawful for any person to receive, possess, transport, ship, conceal, store, barter, sell, dispose of, or pledge or accept as security for a loan, any stolen explosive materials which are moving as, which are part of, which constitute, or which have been shipped or transported in, interstate or foreign commerce, either before or after such materials were stolen, knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that the explosive materials were stolen.
(i) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(1) who is under indictment for, or who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) who is a fugitive from justice;
(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;
(5) who is an alien, other than an alien who—
(A) is lawfully admitted for permanent residence (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(20) of the Immigration and Nationality Act);
(B) is in lawful nonimmigrant status, is a refugee admitted under section 207 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1157), or is in asylum status under section 208 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1158), and—
(i) is a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government, as determined by the Secretary [1] in consultation with the Secretary of State, entering the United States on official law enforcement business, and the shipping, transporting, possession, or receipt of explosive materials is in furtherance of this official law enforcement business; or
(ii) is a person having the power to direct or cause the direction of the management and policies of a corporation, partnership, or association licensed pursuant to section 843 (a), and the shipping, transporting, possession, or receipt of explosive materials is in furtherance of such power;
(C) is a member of a North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) or other friendly foreign military force, as determined by the Attorney General in consultation with the Secretary of Defense, who is present in the United States under military orders for training or other military purpose authorized by the United States and the shipping, transporting, possession, or receipt of explosive materials is in furtherance of the authorized military purpose; or
(D) is lawfully present in the United States in cooperation with the Director of Central Intelligence, and the shipment, transportation, receipt, or possession of the explosive materials is in furtherance of such cooperation;
(6) who has been discharged from the armed forces under dishonorable conditions; [2]
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced the citizenship of that person [3]
to ship or transport any explosive in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce or to receive or possess any explosive which has been shipped or transported in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce.
(j) It shall be unlawful for any person to store any explosive material in a manner not in conformity with regulations promulgated by the Attorney General. In promulgating such regulations, the Attorney General shall take into consideration the class, type, and quantity of explosive materials to be stored, as well as the standards of safety and security recognized in the explosives industry.
(k) It shall be unlawful for any person who has knowledge of the theft or loss of any explosive materials from his stock, to fail to report such theft or loss within twenty-four hours of discovery thereof, to the Attorney General and to appropriate local authorities.
(l) It shall be unlawful for any person to manufacture any plastic explosive that does not contain a detection agent.
(m)
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to import or bring into the United States, or export from the United States, any plastic explosive that does not contain a detection agent.
(2) This subsection does not apply to the importation or bringing into the United States, or the exportation from the United States, of any plastic explosive that was imported or brought into, or manufactured in the United States prior to the date of enactment of this subsection by or on behalf of any agency of the United States performing military or police functions (including any military reserve component) or by or on behalf of the National Guard of any State, not later than 15 years after the date of entry into force of the Convention on the Marking of Plastic Explosives, with respect to the United States.
(n)
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to ship, transport, transfer, receive, or possess any plastic explosive that does not contain a detection agent.
(2) This subsection does not apply to—
(A) the shipment, transportation, transfer, receipt, or possession of any plastic explosive that was imported or brought into, or manufactured in the United States prior to the date of enactment of this subsection by any person during the period beginning on that date and ending 3 years after that date of enactment; or
(B) the shipment, transportation, transfer, receipt, or possession of any plastic explosive that was imported or brought into, or manufactured in the United States prior to the date of enactment of this subsection by or on behalf of any agency of the United States performing a military or police function (including any military reserve component) or by or on behalf of the National Guard of any State, not later than 15 years after the date of entry into force of the Convention on the Marking of Plastic Explosives, with respect to the United States.
(o) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than an agency of the United States (including any military reserve component) or the National Guard of any State, possessing any plastic explosive on the date of enactment of this subsection, to fail to report to the Attorney General within 120 days after such date of enactment the quantity of such explosives possessed, the manufacturer or importer, any marks of identification on such explosives, and such other information as the Attorney General may prescribe by regulation.
(p) Distribution of Information Relating to Explosives, Destructive Devices, and Weapons of Mass Destruction.—
(1) Definitions.— In this subsection—
(A) the term “destructive device” has the same meaning as in section 921 (a)(4);
(B) the term “explosive” has the same meaning as in section 844 (j); and
(C) the term “weapon of mass destruction” has the same meaning as in section 2332a (c)(2).
(2) Prohibition.— It shall be unlawful for any person—
(A) to teach or demonstrate the making or use of an explosive, a destructive device, or a weapon of mass destruction, or to distribute by any means information pertaining to, in whole or in part, the manufacture or use of an explosive, destructive device, or weapon of mass destruction, with the intent that the teaching, demonstration, or information be used for, or in furtherance of, an activity that constitutes a Federal crime of violence; or
(B) to teach or demonstrate to any person the making or use of an explosive, a destructive device, or a weapon of mass destruction, or to distribute to any person, by any means, information pertaining to, in whole or in part, the manufacture or use of an explosive, destructive device, or weapon of mass destruction, knowing that such person intends to use the teaching, demonstration, or information for, or in furtherance of, an activity that constitutes a Federal crime of violence.And here is the link he provided...
link (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/842.html)

wittzo
October 16, 2010, 09:57 AM
It would be illegal to make a gun at high school, because you can't take a gun within 500 feet of a school unless you live next door.

People talk about how dangerous it is to reload ammo, but just like everything in life, if you follow the proper procedures and use common sense, it's completely safe.

You can burn your house down with a match or kill hundreds of people with your car if you're careless. Those plants didn't spontaneously explode, someone got sloppy and didn't follow the rules or cut corners, just like the BP oil spill or the Chilean miners.

zippy13
October 16, 2010, 10:43 AM
Not withstanding the laws controlling the actual manufacturing and distribution of black powder, most local and state jurisdictions have building and zoning regulations that significantly limit the location and types of structures allowed in the making of explosives. Powder mills are typically permitted only in isolated areas and the specialized structures are well spaced.

prob
October 16, 2010, 12:30 PM
Seems like an awful lot of trouble to make your own black powder.

Delmar
October 16, 2010, 01:27 PM
Seems like an awful lot of trouble to make your own black powder. It's sort of messy, but it isn't that hard. The main thing is to pay attention to details. There isn't anyone who reloads safely who wouldn't be able to make BP safely.

Delmar
October 16, 2010, 01:39 PM
The fellow who invented Pyrodex was blown up in one of his plants back in the seventies IIRC. Reading either Earl Narramore or maybe it was Phil Sharpe, on the making of primers was a real eye opener.They wrote some classic books on reloading years ago. Reading that made me handle any of this stuff very carefully and I wouldn't dream of making my own BP. . There is a bit of a difference between a BP plant exploding and a small ball mill exploding. Yes precautions need to be taken but a couple of tires and a few sand bags could effectively contain the blast from a half pound of BP. Which is the most I ever made at a time, last I did it.

Don H
October 16, 2010, 01:46 PM
It would be illegal to make a gun at high school, because you can't take a gun within 500 feet of a school unless you live next door.
Not quite correct. The federal Gun Free School Zone Act has an exception for those who have a concealed carry permit:
if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

Some states specifically allow firearms in schools, on school property or near schools. I have legally carried, frequently, in public schools in Utah, ranging from elementary schools to universities. I have not seen a Utah law that would prohibit an adult with a CFP from manufacturing a firearm in an adult ed machining class on a school campus. School policy, of course, may be a different issue but it would not be illegal.

Edward429451
October 16, 2010, 06:19 PM
Pffft! If Captain Kirk can do it, I can do it. He was a ninny. :D
I made flash powder a couple times when I was younger. Made nice firecrackers and didn't blow myself up or burn down the house. I wouldn't attempt such a foolish thing now...goodness gracious, people might think I was a Ted Kazinsky type:rolleyes:

4V50 Gary
October 17, 2010, 03:37 PM
Guys,

Check out the link I posted in another thread about Foxfire Vol. 5. Page 247 tells you how to take urine and mix it with manure to make saltpeter (or why outhouses were raided for their contents during the American Revolution). Now I understand why urine was saved by the Confederates during the American Civil War to make explosives. They even had a joke that the patriotic southern belles p i s s e d for the Confederacy while their menfolk fought.

Gary

nanuk-O-dah-Nort
October 21, 2010, 09:40 PM
modern pig farming, and fowl farming is a good place to get the manure.

there are many places to find how to refine it.

it can be used as is, but mixed with charcoal it works a bit better, and sulpher lowers the flashpoint.

there is some great info out there.

and as always, PLAY SAFE

HiBC
October 23, 2010, 01:41 AM
I think I have that Foxfire.
I can understand wanting to be confident you can feed a flintlock without a supply chain.Sort of a basic skill thing.I don't think you are a nut.
Homebrew pyro is risky.

andrewstorm
October 23, 2010, 06:30 PM
send a letter to the b.a.t.f and ask if the makeing of black powder,for personal use,re enactment,blowing stumps on your land,history lessons,is lawfull and then you will have proof of the current interpretaion of the law,then call the local police,and verify,then youll be sure:cool:

arcticap
October 24, 2010, 07:27 AM
Regarding a change in the law, I didn't see any reference date associated with the link at all.
BATF agents generally don't take enforcement action against hobby black powder makers. Where's the notice or documentation of a law change in Feb., 2010 as being claimed?

Delmar
October 24, 2010, 07:33 PM
Where's the notice or documentation of a law change in Feb., 2010 as being claimed?That claim has never been substantiated that I know of. I'm just asking around to see if it's true.

mykeal
October 24, 2010, 08:32 PM
Ask the guy on the other forum who told you about it to provide a reference.