PDA

View Full Version : What new C&Rs on the horizon next 1, 3, 5, 10 years?


leadcounsel
October 9, 2010, 03:54 PM
Are there any C&Rs that we can reasonably expect to be on the horizon in the upcoming future? Any guns that are currently in service that are being, or have been, retired?

The Yugo Tokorev m57 was recently added to the C&R list to join it's brothers in the TT33 design.

I'm thinking the CZ83 is a good candidate; nearly identical to the CZ82.

What else?

Cheapshooter
October 9, 2010, 04:12 PM
I am assuming you mean Milsurp C&Rs
How do you expect anything to be added when we have government oficials who won't let M1 Garands, and M1 carbines be imported.
The M57, and P-64 were both a surprise to me so I bought one of each.

The CZ 83 is the civilian export version of the CZ 82, so don't look for that one.

We can only hope that they uncover some warehouse stashes in former Eastern Bloc countries that have some guns and ammo that we can get in.
The EU countries believe that all surplus arms need to be stacked up and burned. Kind of what some want to be done with all firearms in this country!

Idahoser
October 9, 2010, 05:27 PM
Well, Sarah Palin will be elected president in '12 and by executive order will repeal the GCA '34, instantly nullifying '68, '86, and mandating M14s be immediately routed to the CMP.

James K
October 9, 2010, 06:43 PM
Unless Idahoser's fantasy comes true, I don't expect to see too many more milsurps, C&R or not. Most of the shoulder fired arms in use by modern armies are selective fire, so unless there is a major change in the law those will not come on the U.S. civilian market. And the supply of semi autos, bolt actions, and single shots has about dried up. Plus many nations, afraid of the UN and their own people, decide to destroy surplus weapons rather than place them on the market.

One reason for the change is that the U.S., China, Iran, N. Korea, Venezuela, and Russia supply arms free to client states, so there are no "trade in" guns like there were in the 1950's.

Jim

gyvel
October 9, 2010, 07:55 PM
In all likelihood, we will be looking to our own country for the next batch of C&Rs. Guns made prior to "today" in 1960 are now C&Rs, and there are an awful lot of Smiths, Colts, Winchesters, Remingtons, Savages, et. al. out there that are fast becoming C&Rs.

Cheapshooter
October 9, 2010, 08:26 PM
Well. if real americans take control of the government this year & 2012 we could see Viet-Nam era M-16s become C&R. Probably still be NFA regulated, but what the heck. M-16 C&R with a $200 tax stamp and background check with finfgerprints. I would be in!!!

Wrothgar
October 10, 2010, 12:50 AM
Well, Sarah Palin will be elected president in '12 and by executive order will repeal the GCA '34, instantly nullifying '68, '86, and mandating M14s be immediately routed to the CMP.

You're assuming she even knows what those things are... which she probably doesn't. My border collie has a higher IQ than she does.

leadcounsel
October 10, 2010, 06:30 AM
Really Wrothgar...?

Let's try to keep this on topic.

Idahoser
October 10, 2010, 08:31 AM
assumption is the reason people get away with that opinion- if you actually found out what she knows you'd feel differently.

Anyway the argument that any intelligence or experience was a qualification for the job was discarded when you put an incompetent communist puppet in the white house.

Wrothgar
October 10, 2010, 08:52 AM
I'll keep it on topic if they keep it on topic.

And I didn't even vote for Obama. And I did vote.

With that, you don't have to lock the thread. I'm not going to say anything about this anymore.


I would love to see some old M-14s, but didn't Clinton melt them all down? I know the military is using them now as designated marksmen rifles, but I doubt they'll be coming out anytime soon.

kraigwy
October 10, 2010, 09:21 AM
How do you expect anything to be added when we have government oficials who won't let M1 Garands, and M1 carbines be imported.

That's not quite the case. Those rifles are being brought back, turned over to the army, then turned over to the CMP who checks them, and rebuilds them if needed, and then sold to the US Citizen. (Most CMP M1s are Greek returns now).

What is not being allowed is the M1s and Carbines that we loaned to the Koreans. Unlike everyone else, instead of returning those rifles to the Army, they want to SELL them directly to Jobbers in the US. That is the program that's being blocked.

At least thats the story I got from CMP when I was attending their GSM-MI course last month.

carguychris
October 10, 2010, 09:34 AM
In 3 years, every non-serialized pre-63 Winchester rifle will be C&R. Good news for those who love vintage .22s. :)

TX Hunter
October 10, 2010, 09:54 AM
I doubt that we will see many more Surplus firearms becoming Curio and Relics.
Most of the modern military rifles are select fire, or full auto.
That kind of blows.
Maby a few bolt action sniper rifles, and some of the pump shotguns, and maby a few pistols may end up C&R:(
But thats about it.

Sefner
October 10, 2010, 10:05 AM
This is the first thread I've ever read on C&R and I must say, yall do keep it much more exciting than I thought :p

Regardless of who wins what elections I don't think the C&R list is a very high priority.

Pukindog
October 10, 2010, 02:28 PM
What ever happened to the zillions of Japanese firearms that were surrendered? They must be in a big basement somewhere.

Jeff

TX Hunter
October 10, 2010, 02:40 PM
Those Rifles are probably in Red China, waiting for the invasion.

benogil
October 10, 2010, 02:44 PM
Would be interesting to see what the Cubans have, that place is probably C&R heaven.

Cheapshooter
October 10, 2010, 04:19 PM
What is not being allowed is the M1s and Carbines that we loaned to the Koreans. Unlike everyone else, instead of returning those rifles to the Army, they want to SELL them directly to Jobbers in the US. That is the program that's being blocked.

That is the ones I was talking about. Quick on-line purchase with a C&R license. NO local association membership, competitive shooting proof, or other CMP hoops to jump through.

DG45
October 13, 2010, 12:06 AM
CUBA. They used a lot of American weapons 1956-1959. Don't know what they went to later but they may still be using the American stuff. They're still driving American cars from that era.

I feel sure we will open trade with Cuba after Fidel Castro croaks. I don't think we really care anymore what kind of government a country's got, so long as it's wide open to capitalism. Even Fidel is now clued in to how dramatically the economies of both China and Vietnam have been improved, thanks to a little capitalism. Now he's even been quoted as saying that the Cuban socialist economic model he constructed doesn't work! (Sorry for your miserable lives for the last 51 years, muchachos.)

Anyway, I imagine that whoever comes to power in Cuba after Fidel Castro dies will be selling whatever the country can sell to raise capital. Including whatever stockpiles of surplus weapons it may still have.

All I want from Cuba is on of those M-1 rifles, and a box of real Cuban cigars, and maybe one of those beat up but restorable old 1953 Cadillac hardtops.

Buzzcook
October 13, 2010, 01:11 AM
Cuba was soviet armed and that's what they got now.

They might have a stockpile of American gun left over from the Batista regime.

JiminTexas
October 13, 2010, 01:38 PM
Lets think commercial. How about the S&W model 19 or the Colt trooper? In 4 more years or so the pre 64 Model 70 Winchesters will be elligible. Some of them are now.

carguychris
October 13, 2010, 03:32 PM
Regarding Cuban weapons, I bet that whatever American weapons are left will wind up with the CMP. I strongly suspect that the Batista regime had the weapons on "loan" like most other US allies of the period. Given Cubans' frugal nature and the regime's paranoia, I bet their American guns are stashed in warehouses somewhere, although I imagine they may be badly deteriorated; since the island has been cut off from Western ammunition supplies for decades, the Cuban military would have little incentive to keep them in working order, and tropical climates are not friendly to steel. :(

OTOH whatever Soviet weaponry the Cubans possessed could be fair game. Maybe they could dump their surplus SKSs on the US market and depress the (IMHO) currently overinflated prices. :cool:

Actually, this thread brings up another question I've had for quite some time: Where are all the Tokarev SVT-40s? Didn't the Russians produce something like 6 million of them? They evidently kept and even refurbished most of their Mosin-Nagants, so it's reasonable to assume they kept the SVTs also. Why hasn't some Western importer found out where they are? :confused:

BlueTrain
October 15, 2010, 09:36 AM
I'm please there are some liberal thinkers here who thinks it's about time we had a woman president. Personally my picture of a woman president looks more like Madeline Albright than anyone else.

But to return to reality: what precisely and legally is a C&R weapon? I assume one made before a certain year that I don't know.

I think back to the mail order days and what was being offered--and what wasn't. You didn't see, that I recall, M1s and carbines, though they may have been there. You didn't see German Mausers, except for old ones, nor French rifles, except for very old one, or Russian much of anything. All of those were still in use at the time. In fact, bolt action military rifles were still being manufactured in the early 1960s but not many. Except for those armies that had been rearmed with American weapons, most still had bolt actions.

The Russians had adopted, as you know, the SKS but soon thereafter adopted the AK series. All the SKS rifles were put in storage. They may not be C&R but I'd say there are still a lot still out there.

I wonder how many M1 rifles were converted to new rifles by Italy? But I doubt we'll see any of those. But possibly Vietnam has a stock of bolt actions they might decide to sell someday.

The old magazine ads had lots of pistols, all either WWII or even older. Everytime someone adopts a new handgun, there's another possibility for us Americans but don't expect to see any M9 Berettas for sale. From what I gather, all US small arms are either refurbished or shredded.

Cheapshooter
October 15, 2010, 10:21 AM
But to return to reality: what precisely and legally is a C&R weapon? I assume one made before a certain year that I don't know.

If you use the search feature of this forum you will find this has been explained at length many times.
Although there are many commercial sporting arms that are C&R eligible, I think most people who hold the low cost and easily obtained Class 03 FFL (Collector of Curio and Relics) use it to order military surplus firearms directly from the distributors much as was done before the GCA of 1968 ended the mail order firearms business.

SfcMac
October 21, 2010, 04:46 PM
Just about all of the Vietnam weapons M16A1,M79, M60, AK47 and a large number of hand guns will become C&R eligible. in another year or two As far as Milsurp That's about it You other guys are the experts on civilian weapons

essohbe
October 21, 2010, 05:32 PM
Anything/everything available is on the horizon. This thread is all unrealistically presuming that the country will magically turn itself around and not continue to collapse. In reality, if you have the funds, you will be able to buy/trade whatever you want to as long as it can be had.

noelf2
October 22, 2010, 02:03 PM
Anything/everything available is on the horizon. This thread is all unrealistically presuming that the country will magically turn itself around and not continue to collapse. In reality, if you have the funds, you will be able to buy/trade whatever you want to as long as it can be had.

You can already do that if you are willing to break the law !

So, I'm not so defeatist as you I guess. It's been down before, and turned around just fine, with time. It's unrealistic to think it will do otherwise, from a historical point of view. Besides, if the country collapses to the point that all rules/laws are gone, what good will "funds" do? :confused::rolleyes:

The CZ70 will have to be C&R soon, but really should be already since the VZ50 already is, and the 70 is just the 1970 upgrade of it.

kozak6
October 22, 2010, 10:30 PM
I think we'll be seeing fewer and fewer rifles as far as C&R's go due to the trend towards automatic rifles. Consider all the chopped up parts kits out there. But who knows what we'll get in the meantime?

As for pistols, it's anyones guess.

Actually, this thread brings up another question I've had for quite some time: Where are all the Tokarev SVT-40s? Didn't the Russians produce something like 6 million of them? They evidently kept and even refurbished most of their Mosin-Nagants, so it's reasonable to assume they kept the SVTs also. Why hasn't some Western importer found out where they are?

Wikipedia says only 1.6 million.

Russia likely still has mountains and mountains of cool stuff.

The big problem is that during the Clinton administration, a "Voluntary Restraint Agreement" was created. If a firearm isn't on the "ok" list, Russia can't export it here. SVT-40's didn't make the list.

It's really quite sad. Currently, the Russians are converting TT-33's to air pistols just so they can sell them to us.

raftman
October 22, 2010, 10:46 PM
I've always figured when the N. Korean regime falls... we may end up with some of their old stuff at our gun shows.

carguychris
October 23, 2010, 10:21 PM
The big problem is that during the Clinton administration, a "Voluntary Restraint Agreement" was created. If a firearm isn't on the "ok" list, Russia can't export it here. SVT-40's didn't make the list.
I was under the impression that the agreement only covered newly manufactured "sporting" arms, not C&Rs.

Ignition Override
October 24, 2010, 01:50 AM
Cheapshooter's comments about the "west" Europeans wanting to destroy all surplus weapons seem to be quite valid.

I somehow found a website over a year ago for a British/Euro association which pays countries to destroy any and all if possible. Their supposed goal is to keep guns away from African war lords and child warriors (i.e. "Blood Diamonds", Monrovia, Liberia etc).
Even South Africa ordered stores to destroy old Lee-Enfield:( rifles etc, in case insurgents decide to prefer them over AKs, FALs etc.
Importers here reportedly must outbid those groups, in order to not only save the ammo, but also import it.

Those regulations do not seem to apply to Serbia and Russia.
One problem with Russia is that the Ukraine has the only year-round port for the former Soviet Republics, and all ships from the Black Sea come through the Bosporus channel by Istanbul, Turkey.
One day, access to Tula, "Wolf", GT, Bear (& all AK-74) might be a problem for a while?

raftman: Hope your forecast comes true, but if those Garands in South Korea are too evil to import, let's hope that North Korea's export guns can be easily modified to survive our restrictions.

emcon5
October 24, 2010, 10:54 AM
But to return to reality: what precisely and legally is a C&R weapon? I assume one made before a certain year that I don't know.

Here you go:

Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

For military rifles, I think we are pretty much done, for the stated reasons. The only one I can think of that seems like a likely candidate would be the Dragunov, but that would probably be by date only, I can't see a currently fielded military weapon being added to the C&R list any time soon.