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1873Colt
October 6, 2010, 06:29 PM
Is it possible to purchase a semiauto variant of Clyde Barrows go to gun?

nbkky71
October 6, 2010, 06:42 PM
check out Ohio Ordnance... They're not cheap though: $4,000

http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/Firearms/OOWExclusiveFirearms/1918A3_SLR.rif

If you really want to convert it to a Clyde Barrow "scattergun" you'll need to have it registered as a SBR

1873Colt
October 6, 2010, 07:06 PM
I appreciate the link. I have no intention of converting it. Clyde Barrow is just a hero of mine.

EdInk
October 6, 2010, 08:02 PM
May want to re-evaluate your heroes. Aside from that FN is making the FNBAR. Check it out.

Sport45
October 6, 2010, 08:20 PM
BAR browning automatic rifle

Isn't that a bit redundant? :)

If you check the history, you'll probably find that when Barrow was taken out of commission the BAR was one of the weapons of choice for the good guys. ;) Barrow wasn't among the good guys.

1873Colt
October 6, 2010, 08:22 PM
Im just fine claiming Clyde Barrow as one of my heros. A guy from the west dallas slums with nothing trying to work two jobs only to be fired by all of his employers because the laws, knowing he was innocent of any crime picked him up every day and made him come in for questioning. Clyde Barrows life was pretty much forced on him by the very people who later wanted him dead. He was also charged for many crimes he and his brother Buck never commited. Half of them occuring when they were thousands of miles away. Clyde broke into several national armorys were he stole many BARS anytime he needed them. From when his first gang got togther there was only about a month or twos time between Clyde having a BAR. Much research on the matter.When Clyde and Bonnie were shot down they had Multiple brownings in the car taken by Frank Hamer.

RIP Clyde Barrow(1909-1934)Gone but not forgotten

Mike Irwin
October 6, 2010, 08:33 PM
OK, if you want to idolize a murderous sociopath, that's your business, but there were one hell of a lot of people who also got raw deals who didn't turn into feral dogs.

1873Colt
October 6, 2010, 08:37 PM
Hardly the case..I do appreciate the post though it was very helpful.
"Flee before you ever think of firing"-Clyde Barrow

olddav
October 6, 2010, 08:39 PM
Its hard to respond without making it personal. All I can say is, Anna Nicole idolized Marilyn Monroe and that didnt realy workout for her.:barf:

1873Colt
October 6, 2010, 08:43 PM
Nothing personal about my statement I just disagree.Just because we dont agree does not mean that I do not respect your opinon on the matter and all I said was thank you. Im being as civil as can be. Have a nice night

FALshootist
October 6, 2010, 09:36 PM
Hey, Mike you're a member of the staff here. Why don't you close this thread for the benefit of the members whose heros are actually law abiding members of society.

Thanks, I believe other would appreciate it also.

EdInk
October 6, 2010, 10:10 PM
It's not against forum rules to have poor taste in role models.

The product of his enviroment line is a bunch of crap. It's the same
type of garbage you'll hear about Ed Gein and other famous criminals.

He was a bank robber and murderer. He was good at being bad.

Live by the sword...... Well, just ask your hero.

I think you're not going to get much more help on this forum.

Mike Irwin
October 6, 2010, 11:41 PM
"It's not against forum rules to have poor taste in role models."

That's why I didn't close this thread.

44 AMP
October 6, 2010, 11:44 PM
Is a double edged sword. Yes, there's always something cool about the bad guys, and movies and novels make them glamorous. Even the most despicable killers become facinating icons when marketed in the right light.

Bonnie and Clyde became perhaps the most famous of the "motor bandits", and the press of the day (and since) has focused on their exploits, particularly in excaping the law time after time, making them into underdogs, worthy of admiration, and downplaying the simple fact that they robbed banks, and killed people.

They weren't the A-team, spraying the countryside with lead and never really hurting anyone. Don't be deluded into thinking they were.

Saying they are your "heroes" implies there is something there you want to emulate. Fantasy is fine, but doing it in real life will put you on the same fast track to hell that they took.

Finding them fascinating historical figures, even admiring their choice of weapons and/or tactics, is something quite different than claiming them as "Heroes".

FYI, some of the BARs stolen from Govt arsenals had their stocks cut down (along with removing any other extra stuff) to make "whippets". A homemade harness was used to hang the shortened gun under the arm, allowing it to be "whipped" up from under a long coat to fire.

LanceOregon
October 7, 2010, 06:46 AM
The problem is that Hollywood romanticized this gang in the Warren Beatty movie. And there has been a lot of inaccurate romanticism of him here on the Internet too. So many folks don't know how truly evil a man Clyde Barrow really was.

His gang was responsible for a total of 13 murders. Barrow was suspected of being the shooter in 9 of them. 4 of their murders were members of law enforcement who were acting in the line of duty when they died. They consisted of two local police officers, and two highway patrolmen.

The movie romanticized this notion that the gang only robbed big corporate banks. However, that was actually not the case. The banks they tended to rob were mainly small independent ones in little towns, that could not afford the lost money. And they robbed far more convenience stores, gas stations, even road side fruit stands, than they robbed banks. These were all ordinary working class people who could ill afford to have their personal money taken from them in the middle of the Great Depression.

Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker were both nothing more than small-time crooks and ruthless killers who displayed absolutely no social conscience or remorse for their crimes. They never got rich like many of the crime bosses of the 20's and 30's did. So they really were not even successful, other than they managed to avoid capture for two years.

They were lovers of guns. But their guns were the tools of their trade to them. And their trade was murder and robbery.

When they died, this is what law enforcement found in Clyde's 1934 Ford V8:

Three 30-06 Browning automatic rifles (BARs)
One ten-gauge sawed-off double barrel shotgun
One twenty-gauge Remington 11 semiauto sawed-off shotgun ( Bonnie's favorite )
Six Colt 1911 45-caliber automatic pistols
One Colt 32-caliber automatic pistol
One Colt 38-caliber revolver or pistol
One Colt 45-caliber revolver
Over 2000 rounds of various caliber ammunition


Here is a photo taken of Clyde's Ford which is on display in a museum, showing all of the bullet holes in it. He was sitting in the driver's seat when the police ambush took place.

Ironically, the police mainly used Clyde's favorite gun, the BAR, to gun him down.


http://www.vegas4locals.com/images/bc0107_1_.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uI62JCLqc3g/Sm1NKx45G2I/AAAAAAAACBw/8ENVhxfOhBM/s400/Bonnie+%26+Clyde+05.jpg


And here is the shirt that Clyde was wearing when he died. You can see a number of exit holes where bullets exited out his back, and one shot to his neck that exited out under his collar.

http://i56.tinypic.com/2mpaa6d.jpg


Clyde Barrow was definitely a psychopath and a sociopath, and certainly deserves no admiration of any kind whatsoever.

He literally lived by the BAR, and he died by the BAR.

Here he is, posing next to his Ford:

http://i56.tinypic.com/2a6qgbm.jpg




.

LanceOregon
October 7, 2010, 07:02 AM
check out Ohio Ordnance... They're not cheap though: $4,000


WOW! That makes $1,500 for an Auto Ordnance Thompson look cheap!

.

GeauxTide
October 7, 2010, 07:04 AM
A guy from the west dallas slums with nothing trying to work two jobs only to be fired by all of his employers because the laws, knowing he was innocent of any crime picked him up every day and made him come in for questioning. Clyde Barrows life was pretty much forced on him by the very people who later wanted him dead

:barf::barf::barf::barf::barf::barf::

Mike Irwin
October 7, 2010, 08:32 AM
"These were all ordinary working class people who could ill afford to have their personal money taken from them in the middle of the Great Depression."

Bingo.

There's this mythology that has developed over the last 75 years that these motor bandits only attacked large, faceless corporations and, in some sort of Robin Hood story, took those ill-gotten gains from the rich and distributed them to the poor and deserving members of society.

NOTHING could be farther from the truth.

As noted, the Barrow-Parker gang preyed on ordinary people, the people who were least able to lose their money and goods in that economic climate and also individuals who were least able to defend themselves. In other words, Barrow was a predatory coward, preying specifically on those weaker than he was.

Two of the people killed by the gang were small country store owners, people who were members of the community, people who often provided the only credit that members of the community could get. There's strong evidence that Barrow killed both of them.

Barrow was a murderer, and according to some contemporary accounts, there's evidence that he enjoyed killing.

Barrow also fits just about every clinical descriptor of being a sociopath. While obviously he was never examined in his lifetime, there have been a number of "psychological postmortems" over the years by qualified experts, and consensus is largely that yes, he had strong sociopathic tendencies.

scorpion_tyr
October 7, 2010, 09:35 AM
http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63599&stc=1&d=1286462193

This is the monument at the site where Bonnie and Clyde were killed. If you live in Northern Louisiana it's well worth the adventure trying to find it. Also there are some really neat museums in the nearby town with lots of history about the gang and the guns they used.

I never saw in any of the museums anything that would make me think that life was forced upon them or that they were some type of "Robin Hood" gang.

Mike Irwin
October 7, 2010, 10:04 AM
"I never saw in any of the museums anything that would make me think that life was forced upon them or that they were some type of "Robin Hood" gang."

Good. Museums should be for preserving history, not spreading urban legend hype.

EdInk
October 7, 2010, 10:06 AM
OT: Scorpion_Tyr,

That's not ringworm on your hand I the pic is it? (I only ask because you're wearing a wrestling T-Shirt.) Used to hate getting that stuff when people didn't clean the mats.

kraigwy
October 7, 2010, 10:13 AM
Lots of good people suffered during those depression years. Few felt the need to move toward murder and robbery.

However, I see no reason to tie the likes of a gun to to bandits, I'd rather, in the case of the BAR, make tribute to John Browning.

Now as far as the BAR itself, I can attribute it and the 1906-A4 as being the main culprit's to my hearing loss.

Many years ago, I was a Weapons Sgt in a NG SF Company. We were to instruct some NG soldiers in the use of those (as well as other) weapons. We couldn't get any military '06 ammo at the time so I loaded a couple thousand rounds.

We were shooting on the ice of the Bering Sea and I wanted to recover the brass, so like an idiot, I set on the side of the gun with a bag, catching the brass as it came out of the Gun. WITHOUT EAR PROTECTION.

A few years later our company (38th SF Company, AKNG) was disbanded and the army wanted all our foreign and old US Guns turned in. I was POed and hid back some parts.

Fast forward a few years when I was shooting the Wilson Matches. Gene Barnett (Barnett Barrels) inquired about some of my parts, mainly the BAR. I gave him what I had, turned out, they were from a rare model and the parts I had, allowed West Point to put together a BAR that now resides in their Museum.

Sorry to get a bit off topic, I really loved shooting the BAR.

ZeroJunk
October 7, 2010, 10:25 AM
I gave him what I had, turned out, they were from a rare model and the parts I had, allowed West Point to put together a BAR that now resides in their Museum.

Cool.

LanceOregon
October 7, 2010, 07:33 PM
Well, a myth has risen up around these two killers for sure. Hollywood is partially to blame, due to their inaccurate portrayals.

Both have so many fans, that their graves are still constantly decorated with flowers after all of these many years. Clyde is buried with his brother Marvin, who was also a member of the gang, and who died 10 months earlier than he did. The inscription on their grave simply says: "Gone, but not forgotten"


http://i55.tinypic.com/mbtyfk.jpg



Bonnie Parker's grave is even much more generous to her. Her marker proclaims that her life "made the world brighter" Note the long stemmed roses below the marker, denoting intense love.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2uzus6o.jpg

FALshootist
October 7, 2010, 09:55 PM
Although I belive the thread should be closed because it really has nothing to do with the quality and appreciation of the BAR and I think it turned into a discussion of Bonnie and Clyde, I'm actually glad Mike didn't close it, as now i know where to go to pi$$ on their graves. May their criminal asses rot in Hell.

Oh I edited this post to say, My dad rest his soul, was a Korean war vet, stand up guy and an all around good man that loved the BAR and the M1 garand. I truely hate to think that he would be thought of with the likes of ****bags like Bonnie and Clyle because they all knew the value of the BAR.

TheGoldenState
October 7, 2010, 10:02 PM
^^lol^^

scorpion_tyr
October 7, 2010, 11:16 PM
That's not ringworm on your hand I the pic is it? (I only ask because you're wearing a wrestling T-Shirt.) Used to hate getting that stuff when people didn't clean the mats.

No, what you're probably seeing is my busted up knuckles or some dirt or something on my hand.

And to attempt to keep this thread somewhat on topic: Isn't there a modern BAR with synthetic stock and such. I want to say I saw one chambered in 30-06 or something.

lefteyedom
October 7, 2010, 11:33 PM
If it wasn't for "humans" like Bonnie and Clyde we might still be able to own a BAR without having to robe a bank and beg the local Sheriff and ATF.

EdInk
October 7, 2010, 11:52 PM
Yes the modern version is the FNBAR.

scorpion_tyr
October 8, 2010, 12:16 AM
Thanks EdInk, I didn't even know FN was making one, the one I was thinking about was the Browning BAR hunting rifles.

Buzzcook
October 8, 2010, 12:17 AM
The action from the BAR is used in at least one of our current MGs. Forget which one.

The Bar would have lasted a bit longer if it had a quickly replaced barrel and was belt fed.

I bet it was fun to shoot.

LanceOregon
October 8, 2010, 12:28 AM
because it really has nothing to do with the quality and appreciation of the BAR and I think it turned into a discussion of Bonnie and Clyde


Well, but Bonnie and Clyde were probably the most famous criminals to ever use the BAR. So they are a small, but very notable, part of the BAR's history.

The BAR did play a major role in their success in shootouts. Most police agencies were totally ill equipped to deal with a gang of outlaws armed with mutliple BAR's. No other weapon had the range, the stopping power, and the firepower that a BAR brought to a gunfight.

And because they had BAR's, law enforcement had to arm themselves with the BAR as well, in order to be able to go up against them. Plus, when they planned their ambush, they knew that the FMJ .30-06 rounds from the BAR would have the necessary penetrating power to shoot through the automobile, and still kill the occupants.

.

scorpion_tyr
October 8, 2010, 12:36 AM
when they planned their ambush, they knew that the FMJ .30-06 rounds from the BAR would have the necessary penetrating power to shoot through the automobile, and still kill the occupants.

And some people think they were the good guys??? :confused:

LanceOregon
October 8, 2010, 12:52 AM
A couple of Muslim insurgents from Dagestan in southern Russia have recently been called a modern day "Bonnie and Clyde".

They were husband and wife. The husband was a strict Islamic Fundamentalist who believed in Jihad, and murdered several Russians in a campaign of terror, before Russian Federal police killed him in a shootout in 2009.

His young 17 yr old Widow ( he had married her at 14 ), then blew herself up in that big suicide bombing in the Moscow subway system that happened a few months ago.

Like Bonnie and Clyde, they have now both become folk heroes, and are idolized by many Muslims in Russia who want independence. And that is despite the fact that they both brutally murdered many innocent and defenseless people. Yet, they are now honored and admired in death, just like Bonnie & Clyde are.

So history does have a strange way of repeating itself.

Here are photos of them together in happier days. Tell me if these two don't remind you of Bonnie and Clyde:


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/04/03/world/03moscow-cnd-inline1/03moscow-cnd-inline1-popup.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/slmgm1.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/5bzc5f.jpg

LanceOregon
October 8, 2010, 01:11 AM
And some people think they were the good guys???

Well Scorpion, law enforcement was a bit harsher 76 years ago.

You need to also take into consideration the fact that Bonnie and Clyde had murdered so many people, including law enforcement officers. And the fact that they were so heavily armed with such powerful weapons like the BAR.

Why give such thugs the chance to defend themselves? If they had been given the opportunity to surrender, they could of had a chance to get their BAR's out and use them. And if that would of happened, then the lives of the police officers would have been put in grave risk.

Normally I would not advocate the police ambushing and gunning down criminals in this manner. But in the case of Bonnie and Clyde, I think that it was the right decision, and a necessary evil that had to be done.

I would sort of compare it to the dropping of the Atomic Bomb on Hiroshima. One normally would not want to be so brutal and callous towards human life. But it was a necessary evil that had to be done in order to bring the nightmare of WWII to a close.

Likewise, the ambush of Bonnie and Clyde was necessary to bring their reign of terror and murder to a close, without putting more lives at risk.

Here is a photo taken shortly after they were ambushed. You can see the 3 BAR's that police took from their automobile, stacked up against the car on the right rear end of the vehicle.

The police simply could not afford to allow them to get access to those BAR's. They had to be gunned down on sight:


http://i53.tinypic.com/faa41w.jpg

.

Sport45
October 8, 2010, 01:14 AM
The Bar would have lasted a bit longer if it had a quickly replaced barrel and was belt fed.

I bet it was fun to shoot.

When my dad went through basic in '43 he qualified higher with the BAR than with the issued rifle or handgun ('03A3 and 1911A1 where he was). He said he liked shooting the BAR. He didn't like so much when toting it on runs and marches... But on occasion he'd carry it AND someone's rifle to help them keep up. It wasn't unusual for others to pick up the loads of those that were dragging.

I wish I could have shared some of his experiences. :)

I'm glad I didn't have to share all of them. I can certainly appreciate never living on an island that still had enemy combatants and flying bombing missions in the Pacific.

Thanks Dad, and everyone else that has served the USA in combat or served to keep us at peace.

LanceOregon
October 8, 2010, 01:18 AM
And some people think they were the good guys???

Oops, I now think that this may be a misunderstanding due to my not being more clear earlier.

I was referring to the police ambush of Bonnie and Clyde in my post. However, I now realize that my comments were not that clear, and could have been mistaken instead to be referring to Bonnie and Clyde's use of the BAR.

If that is what you thought, then I apologize for not being more clear, and take back my comments above. For I thought that you were referring to the police.


.

scorpion_tyr
October 8, 2010, 01:23 AM
No worries. I was talking about Bonnie and Clyde. I know there is a lot of controversy over how they were killed, and even with the worst story I'll still side with the LEO's.

Bad people don't get happy endings.

LanceOregon
October 8, 2010, 01:24 AM
The history channel had a program where they picked the top ten guns in history, and the BAR came in 10th place on their list.

You can watch this story about the history of the BAR on You Tube here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0r5aWLJC0Q

It is well worth checking out.

It includes the story of "Commando" Charles Kelly, and how he used the BAR to win the Medal of Honor at the battle for Salerno. The press dubbed him "The one man Army", due to his heroism in wiping out so many Germans.

He was quite a national hero. Sadly, his loving wife Mae developed uterine cancer, and after a long suffering illness, finally died in 1951. Kelly was left wrecked emotionally, and ended up losing his home and filing bankruptcy, due to the enormous medical bills that had piled up for his wife.

He died an alcoholic in 1964, of liver failure in a VA hospital.

Here is a photo of him together with Mae, back when he was still being feted as a national hero after the war in 1946:

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/ADF65815-BA63-4113-AE8D-15D858B6FB2E/U1031604INP.jpg
.

RT
October 8, 2010, 06:27 AM
You get a lot of attention at the range...
http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n443/thorm001/Guns/IMG_0911.jpg

LanceOregon
October 8, 2010, 07:11 AM
Here is a really awesome video of a BAR being fired full auto:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEo8yRiDU0w


And this video is utterly hilarious!! Just watch this young lady's head as she fires this BAR:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=525hz8KVAIs&NR=1

.

Art Eatman
October 8, 2010, 12:07 PM
I've messed with a lot of miliary weapons, from trapdoor Springfields on up through the M-16. Of them all, I liked the BAR the most. (Granted, a quad-.50 turret of Ma Deuces is fun, but a bit expensive.)

Texas Ranger Frank Hamer, nominally in charge at the scene of the ambush, had actually hoped to make a stop of their car and capture them alive. He was POed when the Louisiana guys opened fire without giving him a chance to "do it his way". He grumped about it for years.

p99guy
October 8, 2010, 12:21 PM
The Texas Ranger museum in Waco Tx has some of Bonnie and Clydes firearms as well as a couple that were used by the lawmen in that final ambush.....


EDink.... the Browning BAR/FNAR hunting rifles have nothing in common with the M1918, M1918A1,M1918A2, The M1918 FND, the Colt Monitor, or the currently made Ohio Ordnance semi auto only M1918A3

LanceOregon
October 8, 2010, 06:52 PM
One thing that I learned that I never knew about the Barrow brothers, is that they were both real shrimps. Very short and slightly built men.

Clyde had always seemed so much taller than Bonnie in their photos, and always towered over her in their pics. However, I checked on her, and it turns out that she was only 4' 10" tall!! So she was absolutely tiny!!

The movies certainly did not portray these real facts either.

Here is a wanted poster for both of the Barrow brothers, showing how little they were:

http://i51.tinypic.com/20gf8ew.jpg


One fascinating additional detail is that the Governor of Texas had shown Melvin Barrow mercy, and had pardoned him from an earlier long prison sentence. However, he responded by immediately starting on this vicious crime spree with his brother, right after he was pardoned from prison.

When will people ever learn??

.

Sport45
October 8, 2010, 08:01 PM
Melvin could have done well at A&M. Notice his eye color? Is that even possible?

If he'd been born a couple hundred years earlier that might have been enought to get him torched for being demonic. :eek:

44 AMP
October 8, 2010, 11:02 PM
After talking with a good friend who has some very good reference material, including "Rock and a Hard Place" the guns at Bonnie and Clyde's "capture", were a Colt Monitor (civilian version of the BAR) which had been presented to Hamer by Colt, two model 8 Remingtons (one engraved Model 8S in .30 Rem, carried by Hamer) the second was either a .30 or a .35, with .30 being more likely, as it was a favorite of Hamer's.

Also there were a Winchester 94 in .30-30, and at least one, possibly two Remington Model 11 12ga shotguns. A different source mentions a second BAR, but this is not confirmed. The two model 8s, the Win, the Monitor and one model 11 shotgun are confirmed by mulitple sources.

Hamer did want to take them alive. The officers all had orders not to fire until ordered, or B&C began shooting. That was the plan. According to the story, Hamer stepped out into the road and ordered them to give up. Clyde reached for a gun, and one of the officers shot. Clyde was struck in the head, knocking offhis hat and killing him. His foot came off the clutch and the car moved forward and stalled. The other officers in the bushes opened fire when the car began to move, believing that B&C had opened fire.

Accounts vary a fair amount over some of the details of the weapons used, as the men involved were not very concerned about keeping track of who was carrying what that day, and gave details as they remembered them in interviews, sometimes years later.

WhyteP38
October 9, 2010, 09:50 AM
A couple of Muslim insurgents from Dagestan in southern Russia have recently been called a modern day "Bonnie and Clyde".

<snip>

Here are photos of them together in happier days. Tell me if these two don't remind you of Bonnie and Clyde:Maybe "Burqua and Clyde"?

Regardless, why idolize dirtbags when there are so many other genuine heroes, especially your average combat GI, who are more deserving?

As for the BAR, at times I have contemplated getting one but have never really checked into it. Now, after seeing that it weighs more than 19 pounds, I'm no longer so inclined. I'm sure it's fun to shoot, but I don't think I'd look forward to lugging it around often enough to make it worth my while.

Art Eatman
October 9, 2010, 10:08 AM
Whyte, a goodly number of GIs toted BARs around in the Pacific and in Korea. The accompanying team member commonly carried at least two boxes of ammo of 110 rounds each. In addition to their combat packs, of course...

The best thing about the BAR is that it's readily portable and can be held on target in full-auto much better than any of the selective-fire battle rifles such as the FAL and suchlike. Much, much less problem with muzzle-climb.

44 AMP
October 9, 2010, 11:10 AM
The weight of the BAR is important. Yes, its heavy, but its supposed to be. While a chore to hump around, that weight makes it effective to shoot. Not for us civilian colectors (it wasn't made for us!) but for the men on the sharp end.

I hear criticisms, mostly the same ones, every time the BAR is talked about. "It should be lighter, it should have been belt fed," etc. etc. The only ones I consider even remotely valid is the lack of a quick change barrel (something that, at the time was not realized to be as important as it later became), and the large magazine prevents a really low prone position/makes reloading difficult when prone.

Remember what the BAR was, and its pre-combat history. Browning designed the gun in record time, and literally gave it to the US govt (He accepted the govt's first, low ball offer). At the time, it was the lightest, most portable "machine gun" existant. The Army was really interested in the concept of "walking fire", and the BAR could do that.

The BAR is an automatic rifle, more than a machine gun, in concept. And, it is the first generation. We have learned a lot since. But we didn't learn it all at once, or all that well as the requirements for the M14 rifle later showed.

At half the weight of the BAR, the M14 just isn't heavy enough for the automatic rifle role (at least not with the cyclic rate they they designed it with). The true tragedy of the M14 rifle is that, while the Army took its time developing it, they were so fixated on certain aspects that they never took the time to investigate how a few, simple changes could have made it a decent (or possible even an outstanding) performer in the full auto role. It was a political decision to replace the M14 with the M16, one that ensured the M14 would never get the place it might have held.

Quick change barrels, easy insert magazines, and better ergonomics are things that came about on later generations of LMGs, profiting from combat experience which the BAR didn't have when designed. The US govt could, and probably should have had the BAR redesigned before WWII, to take advantage of these things. But they didn't. Because, most importantly, it cost money, and the BAR worked as is. The good is always the enemy of the best, especially when cost is a factor. Advantages gained were not seen as justifing the expense.

At the demise of Bonnie & Clyde, there were two BARs (likely), one we know for sure, the Colt Monitor, but there were also three other .30 caliber rifles (one possibly a .35 Rem) and a couple of shotguns in the hands of the law that day. It wasn't just the BAR that brought them down, though the BAR was there and no doubt played an important part. So, yes, Bonnie & Clyde are a part of BAR history, from both sides. Live by the sword.....

p99guy
October 9, 2010, 04:29 PM
The FN "D" model BAR did have a quick change barrel and true pistol grip...its not that John Browning didnt keep improving it while working for FN....we just didnt adopt the improvements.
The Barker gang and some others are also a permanant part of BAR lore....and the BAR was vastly prefered to the thompson in real life by the prohibition gangsters, because the tommy gun wasnt all that good on the heavy steel bodywork of the cars in that day...where as a BAR would still shoot through both sides( and in a lot of cases penetrate the bullet resistant glass/ limozine armor of the period) it had power in spades. A.P. was very popular as general purpose use ammo in the BAR.

The D type BAR
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6926/img03501.jpg (http://img220.imageshack.us/i/img03501.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Hunterfisher808
October 10, 2010, 02:19 AM
"That's not ringworm on your hand I the pic is it? (I only ask because you're wearing a wrestling T-Shirt.) Used to hate getting that stuff when people didn't clean the mats."

Edink, thats not dirt or ringworm, thats visual proof that the man hits with his knuckles properly + he looks up to the mark.....he probably hits like a BAR :D;)

teumessian_fox
October 10, 2010, 10:06 AM
Im just fine claiming Clyde Barrow as one of my heros.

What's the matter? Need attention?

You're making yourself look extremely silly.

LockedBreech
October 10, 2010, 04:31 PM
I just read through this thread, and though troubled by it I am not unfamiliar with it. I am a university student, and so all around me are those who engage in misguided worship of historical figures given falsely heroic labels. Most common on the university campus is, of course, Che Guevara, who had been transformed by the hippie college mind into a anti-corporate sort of symbol, with all the inconvenient bits about his brutal murder of political opponents edited out.

My family bleeds blue. For multiple generations we have been police. Whenver I see these gangsters idealized or admired by individuals, all I see are the trail of dead cops they left. I give no quarter to corrupt police - those who are abusive or on the take - but those were not the police these criminals killed. These were police with families and communities, attempting to keep them safe.

I am an imperfect man, but I imagine I'll burn in a lower heat setting than these falsely worshipped murderers.

To keep on-topc...the BAR is a very cool weapon. The ability to stay on-target while on full auto is a really rare trait, and it hit hard as well.