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jwf1989
October 3, 2010, 07:53 PM
who makes the best complete ar-15(5.56x45mm/.223) quality/performance/reliabilty
(leave price out of decision)

-dpms ap4-

-armalite ar-15-

-bushmaster ar-15-

-rock river arms ar-15-

-colt ar-15-

RT
October 3, 2010, 08:47 PM
LaRue, Noveske, Daniel Defense, LMT, BCM > Colt > the rest

TriggerJunky
October 3, 2010, 09:03 PM
Best to worst...

Noveske
Daniel Defense
Larue
LMT
BCM
Colt
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DPMS


I hate DPMS.

jwf1989
October 3, 2010, 09:19 PM
wheres armalite on that list

dreamweaver
October 3, 2010, 09:25 PM
i voted colt cause i own two. but armalite is really the standard now days. and no one can touch armalite for AR-10's
jmho:)

RT
October 4, 2010, 04:59 AM
Armalite is the standard for what? Most would argue that Noveske is the gold standard AR
How would you rate the Armalite AR-10 versus a LMT MWS?

madcratebuilder
October 4, 2010, 06:20 AM
AR15/AR10=ArmaLite or Noveske. The only difference I see between ArmaLite and Noveske is the barrel.

cw_mi
October 4, 2010, 12:40 PM
I found this info online, I unfortunatly don't have a link to the source.

Some interesting info :

Most all lowers, excluding billet ones, are made by a handful of companies and then the selling "manufacturer" cleans them up, stamps their logo on, and does the finish. here's a list of most of the manufacturer(s). Granted, the finish out and QC processes by the company that stamps their name on the side does vary:

Lewis Machine & Tool
LMT
Lauer
DS Arms
PWA
Eagle
Armalite
Knights Armament
Barrett

Continental Machine Tool
Stag
Rock River Arms
High Standard
Noveske
Century (New)
Global Tactical
CLE
S&W
MGI
Wilson Tactical
Grenadier Precision
Colt

LAR Manufacturing
LAR
Bushmaster
Ameetec
DPMS
CMMG
Double Star
Fulton Armory
Spike's Tactical

JVP
Double Star
LRB

Mega Machine Shop
Mega
GSE
Dalphon
POF
Alexander Arms

Olympic
Olympic
SGW
Tromix
Palmetto
Dalphon
Frankford
Century (Old)

Sun Devil
Sun Devil billet receivers

Superior
Superior Arms

shootingblanks
October 4, 2010, 01:05 PM
My brother is on SWAT for a large city. He has a customized Armalite AR-15. I am saving up for an AR-15 and was wondering about the PWS 5.56 Diablo/MK110. How does the Primary Weapon System compare?

pcardinal42
October 4, 2010, 05:26 PM
Colt is the only manufacture that should have votes on that poll. RT and TriggerJunky have it down right. All the companies they listed are top notch and make excellent rifles that aren't even comparable to Dpms or bushmaster.

Danny45
October 4, 2010, 07:25 PM
My LMT isn't on the poll. :(

Willie Lowman
October 4, 2010, 07:36 PM
I have owned a Colt HBar II for 11 years. I shot over 10,000 rounds through it's original upper before I sold it to a friend who was building an AR. I kept the lower and put a RRA Entry Tac upper on it. I am happy with it, even though it has that stupid grenade launcher notch.

I have owned 2 RRA rifles and a Wilson Combat carbine as well. The RRAs function fine and shoot well but the fit and finish doesn't seem to be as good as my Colt. The Wilson had a permanently attached muzzle break because it was a AWB gun. I got rid of it when the ban ended.

Quentin2
October 4, 2010, 08:40 PM
I voted Colt since it is the best in your poll but would have chosen BCM if you had it.

Hey how come you didn't have my FrankenAR listed... it's S&W (lower receiver), Del-Ton (LPK), BCM (receiver extension/M4 stock), ArmaLite (upper receiver), Wilson (barrel), Daniel Defense (BCG), Bushmaster (various parts), Colt/Cardinal Forge (carry handle), Colt/Anchor Harvey (cut carry handle), YHM (risers), Bushnell (RDS), MagPull (magazine), Marlin (scope), H&K (magazine) and CQB Solutions (sling)! :p

RT
October 4, 2010, 09:28 PM
The difference b/t armalite and noveske is: the barrel steel, twist, chrome lining MPI and HPT testing, M16 bolt carrier, MPI bolt, HPT bolt, F marked FSB, Buffer weight, and probably more.

FoxtrotRomeo
October 5, 2010, 12:14 AM
To be honest, a complete AR? I build the best one. And you should too. If you get what I mean. I know the builders get it. :)

Quentin2
October 5, 2010, 12:15 AM
The difference b/t armalite and noveske is: the barrel steel, twist, chrome lining MPI and HPT testing, M16 bolt carrier, MPI bolt, HPT bolt, F marked FSB, Buffer weight, and probably more.

You're right - the ArmaLite bolt isn't Carpenter 158 steel and the receiver extension is 6061 aircraft aluminum not 7075-T6. But to be fair MIL-B-11595E milspec barrel steel is used as is chrome lining of the chamber and bore.

chadwick76
October 5, 2010, 12:43 AM
yes i do own a dpms, but i only shoot my larue and noveske 10.5:D

jwf1989
October 30, 2010, 06:13 PM
how is the colt better then rra,armalite or bushmaster, ive shot all three and rra and armalite were nicer in my opinion but it dominated the poll? and the reason the others arnt on the poll is the price, i shldve put best under $1300 but seriousley ,is the pony emblem worth that much and in which ones have the best resale?

pythagorean
October 30, 2010, 07:03 PM
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

10mmAuto
October 30, 2010, 07:11 PM
Colts are typically pretty mediocre.

pythagorean
October 30, 2010, 07:20 PM
Colts are typically pretty mediocre.

Take a look at the link to the M-4 variants and say that again....

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

10mmAuto
October 30, 2010, 08:17 PM
My personal experience with issued M4s and 16s obviously doesn't have **** on this chart which is the definitive authority on the performance of various AR-15s.
/s

HKFan9
October 30, 2010, 09:02 PM
Yes everyone that was ever issued an AR platform is an expert on the matter.;)

I voted for Colt, I sold my Colt, and my Stag shoots just as nice for half the money. Noveske and LMT BCM are better, but for the poll I would say Colt, for me, my Stag has been awesome. I don't crawl through mud with mine, or do water bound assaults, so my Stag works just fine for me. I trust my life to it in the conditions I would need to use it, and it always performs great when I take it out to shoot. I got my stag used off here by another member. Used the money from my colt for a different gun, and have been slowly tinkering and replacing parts on the Stag when I get extra time and money.... which is just as much fun as shooting the thing.

An AR is an adult erector set, build your own, so you can't complain that said brand is bad, you put the labor in, you only have yourself to blame.;)

redstategunnut
October 30, 2010, 09:06 PM
There is objective proof that Colt makes the best gun on this list. Use your googlefu. Good grief.

10mmAuto
October 30, 2010, 09:20 PM
Yes everyone that was ever issued an AR platform is an expert on the matter.
I didn't claim so much for a second, but the idea that creating some artificial criteria about how the rifle is built and putting them into a matrix makes Colt the best rifle is retarded.

BIG P
October 30, 2010, 09:28 PM
It didnt make the list but the STAG is a nice all around rifle had mine 5years
no problems at the range or woods my vote is STAG.

espnazi
October 30, 2010, 09:33 PM
I didn't claim so much for a second, but the idea that creating some artificial criteria about how the rifle is built and putting them into a matrix makes Colt the best rifle is retarded.

How is better testing and desirable features "artificial criteria". Yes perhaps your definition of "best" is not the same as most, but if non milspec and a improperly staked gas key is what you like by all means get one.

I'm not saying these other ARs are bad if you want them for a range toy, but I don't anyone here is going to sit here and tell me olympic or cmmg is better than a Colt.

Bluebuck56
October 30, 2010, 09:34 PM
So what's the problem with DPMS? I love mine. It's accurate and has never jammed. What more can you ask from a semi-auto rifle?

bedlamite
October 30, 2010, 09:35 PM
So what's the problem with DPMS? I love mine. It's accurate and has never jammed. What more can you ask from a semi-auto rifle?

To make you some bacon in the morning. Duh.

espnazi
October 30, 2010, 09:51 PM
There is nothing wrong with DPMS or for that matter my OLY I just sold, but there is definitely better. If I were to get a defensive carbine i would not compromise, I would get one of carbines from the top(left) of the chart.

Now for plinking you can get whatever you want the worst that can happen is you have to head back home or end your session early if something breaks.

My next AR will be a BCM or DD. Am I planning to shoot terrorist with it? no, but for only $100-$200 more than the other brands why not get something head shoulders above the rest.(BCM has uppers for only $395)

cncdieman
October 30, 2010, 09:52 PM
I have taken apart and machined a lot of ar15s from many manufacturers and because i mount them on fixtures and probe them for where to start machining i would say that colt is the most consistent.

Bluebuck56
October 30, 2010, 10:03 PM
"To make you some bacon in the morning. Duh." Ya. I could take a boar out with it.

10mmAuto
October 30, 2010, 10:03 PM
How is better testing and desirable features "artificial criteria". Yes perhaps your definition of "best" is not the same as most, but if non milspec and a improperly staked gas key is what you like by all means get one.

Typically I like to quantify what's best in terms of performance. Not to mention that cute matrix left out most of the high quality manufacturers of ARs.

espnazi
October 30, 2010, 10:12 PM
You cant quantify in terms of performance since it will vary from rifle to rifle. Yes you can get DPMS that is great but the next one may not be. What you can do is make sure everything is consistent and within spec while using quality materials so that you can try to get consistent performance.

jwf1989
October 31, 2010, 02:10 AM
well i googled ,how colt was better and came up with rock river being better and armalite not even being mentioned very much;)

Blackops_2
October 31, 2010, 02:45 AM
Regardless of opinion noone can argue for best Price/performance BCM wins, end of story....

And in the department not comparing price Knights Armament, which noone likes to buy cause they're outrageously expensive :barf:

10mmAuto
October 31, 2010, 03:07 AM
And in the department not comparing price Knights Armament, which noone likes to buy cause they're outrageously expensive
Personal comparison, having used and laid hands on both Noveske's AR-15s/AR-10s are better performers and have better fit/finish/quality components than Knights AR-15/AR-10 equivalents.

jwf1989
October 31, 2010, 03:36 AM
well i was curious as to why people would say colt over rra? well, except for the pony

wnycollector
October 31, 2010, 07:20 AM
best Price/performance BCM wins

BCM very very high quality for a fair price.

pythagorean
October 31, 2010, 07:57 AM
The chart serves the technical aspect of what is actually done to put together the M4s available that are listed.
It is true that one could pick a winner from any of the brands out of luck or experience or financial limits.
It is also true one could spend a fortune for the best on the chart and not need to to get results desired.
I am still winding my way through the chart learning how much more the chart shows than I know.
The chart is the most technical compilation of data I have ever seen on the M4s.
I doubt anyone here (including myself) knows enough about the chart to declare a different order!
And we have these posts about "building your own" that really fascinate me.
I am not a professional M4 company selling M4s to the US Army.
I doubt anyone else here is.
So whoever says they "know better" than the chart in building their own is a very private industry lacking my trust in credentials.

Let's use the chart and see how a problem can develop in the lower sided arms (to the right of the chart).

1. You can bang the front sight of your Armalite on a window sill during a DEA raid and render it inoperable because the gas line is closed off from the twist in the non-staked front sight gas line area. This has been documented.
2. You can keep your unprotected surfaces underneath the sights away from "waterborne" operations but dampness or moisture in the air can cause rust.
3. You can choose a batch tested, instead of every single MPI bolt tested, rifle hoping the one you got passed inspection--but because it was not individually tested and proven who knows?

jwf1989
October 31, 2010, 11:14 PM
still not answerin the question?????????????????:cool:

pcardinal42
November 1, 2010, 12:23 AM
well i was curious as to why people would say colt over rra? well, except for the pony


People say colt over rra because of how it is made, the test that each barrel and bcg go through before it gets to your hand. The use of the proper steel and chambering for actual 5.56 stuff like that. It's just not about the brand.

Quentin2
November 1, 2010, 12:27 AM
still not answerin the question?????????????????

I'd say pythagorean just gave a good answer why Colt tends to be more reliable than RRA! :D

Nobody's saying RRA is bad and nobody's trying to hurt anyone's feelings but there's a reason why some brands are cheaper and score so lowly on "The Chart".


ETA: and pcardinal42 (I didn't see his post since I didn't refresh the screen before I posted.)

curmudgeon1
November 1, 2010, 12:56 AM
I was under the impression that the decsending order of the chart indicated which brand name conformed the most, or least, to military spec.s .......
is that an incorrect take on the subject ?

gyvel
November 1, 2010, 02:09 AM
Who made "Kaiser Defense" lowers?

pcardinal42
November 1, 2010, 05:35 AM
Manufactures on the left of the chart conform to the mil-spec. The X's show which parts of the mil-spec the manufacture follows and which ones they do not.

redstategunnut
November 1, 2010, 07:01 AM
Most ARs that you can buy at a gun store are going to run the first 500 rounds without a problem. Many of them are going to run the first 1000 rounds without a problem. The differences that are objective that "The Chart" reflects will manifest when one runs the gun hard and starts to get a higher round count.

If you want to take your low end rifle to the range, shoot a hundred rounds or so once in a while, rock on and have a great time. I have a Bushmaster I took as payment from a guy who was cash poor. It's a great rifle to play with and I haven't had any trouble with it yet. It might run many thousands more rounds without trouble, but if it does it will be in spite of its demonstrably lower build quality and quality control than my other rifles.

If you want to buy a rifle that is more likely to stand up to, say, high round count training classes (say 750-1,000 rounds in a day for a couple of days running) then I recommend that you look at the end of The Chart where Colt, Daniel Defense and BCM are found. These rifles have higher quality components and are subjected to more quality control measures before they are put on the market. That's not gun store nonsense, that's not "Ponyitis," that's not SWAT magazine fanboy stuff, that's fact.

jwf1989
November 1, 2010, 04:36 PM
that was the answer i was looking for

10mmAuto
November 1, 2010, 04:44 PM
If I'm not mistaken Travis Haley and a hand full of guys held off half a city's worth of insurgents in Najaf with Bushmasters for the better part of a day at the CPA, so I'm going to go ahead and guess they're not that bad.

thesheepdog
November 1, 2010, 04:55 PM
"Fear the man with one gun"

I think any of these AR's are quality! It just depends on how hard you plan on running your weapon (silenced, un-silenced; SBR, SPR platform, etc..)

If you like to run you weapons hard, I can't suggest a better gun than Daniel Defense! I love mine. Even though i swapped barrels on it, it still has all the other top-end parts on it-barrel is a Lothar Walther.

pythagorean
November 2, 2010, 08:10 AM
I've had Armalites and Bushmasters (along with Colt) and they were just fine for me.
I came to a point where I sold my duplicates (in rifles and handguns) and parted with the Bushmaster I had.

However, to tell you the truth, I really liked the Bushmaster.

I don't think I'm being Ponyish here as much as pragmatic.

Sure enough, about 2 or three months after I sold the Bushmaster the prices on the used Colt LE 6920s went up to $1800 (the ones that came with original boxes and little or no evidence of being used) while the prices on used Bushmasters and Armalites (and others) stayed around $900.

I made my decision to keep the Colt because of the chart--not because of my own experience with them. My own experience isn't long enough (with any) to be competing with the M4 Chart.

shanzlik
November 2, 2010, 04:38 PM
LaRue OBR 556 - mine can shoot under 0.5" five shot groups at 100 yards, verifiable by the factory test target and some of my own. I've also shot repeatable 10 round groups at or under 1.0" at 100 yards.

The craftsmanship is outstanding, and they have one of the best customer service programs in business. They're also big supports of our soldiers and the shooting community.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n634/G27RR/LaRueOBRLT-15lt2.jpg

Here are the first 48 rounds fired from my OBR at 100 yards, which included the final sighting in of the scope...

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n634/G27RR/2010-11-02160908-1-2.jpg

And yes, I know it's expensive.