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View Full Version : Best .357 Mag/.38Spl+P for a 2" snub?


Warhammer
August 26, 2010, 01:09 PM
I know that bullet technology has advanced and that there are now loads specifically designed for short-barrel handguns. I also know that what works best with a 4-6" barrel may not work as well with a 2" barrel. So, what is the best personal defence round for a 2"-barreled .357 Mag snubby? Are there .38 Spl +P loads out there that would actually work better than a .357 load in this application? Which bullet weight/bullet design works best from such a short barrel? I appreciate you input!

gearchecker
August 26, 2010, 01:31 PM
You can depend on either Speer Gold Dot or Hornaday Critical Defense for your PD needs. There are others but these 2 have excellent track records and are used by numerous law enforcement agencies for their effectivness.

Ammo designed for short barrels are generally lower power to reduce the muzzle blast and quiet the report. With that, you lose speed and penetration power.

Warhammer
August 26, 2010, 01:37 PM
So the "short barrel specific" ammo doesn't work better, it's just more pleasant to shoot? Any reason to choose .38Spl+P over .357Mag, other than reduced recoil/flash/noise?

Don P
August 26, 2010, 01:44 PM
You have to hit what you're aiming at.:eek: Do your job and just about any ammo on the market will get the job done, IF you do your job:cool:

spacecoast
August 26, 2010, 01:56 PM
Do your job and just about any ammo on the market will get the job done

True, but someone has sure convinced a lot of people that $1 per round ammo gives you some kind of edge...

To the OP, I believe that a heavier, slower bullet loses a smaller fraction of its energy/momentum when fired from a snub revolver because it doesn't exit the barrel as quickly as a lighter, fast round (which has correspondingly less time to accelerate under pressure). For that reason, I think a 158 gr. LSWCHP .38 +P like the Remington R38S12 is a good choice. Also, Speer makes a short barrel .38 +P load (presumably with a VERY fast powder) for snub nose applications.

From a "protect your hearing" perspective, I would NEVER advocate firing a .357 supersonic round in an ears-unprotected situation, unless there was absolutely no alternative for protecting your life. Damage is dependent on the individual, of course, but it CAN'T be good for your long term hearing. No handgun round is, for that matter, but the .357 is particularly nasty decibel-wise.

.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB

(From http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml)

KyJim
August 26, 2010, 07:36 PM
So the "short barrel specific" ammo doesn't work better, it's just more pleasant to shoot? Any reason to choose .38Spl+P over .357Mag, other than reduced recoil/flash/noise?
No, this isn't quite correct. The short barrel ammo has powder designed to ignite and burn more quickly so that the bullet exits with a higher velocity than the "normal" powder. The "normal" powder will have higher velocities in the longer barrels because the powder has more time to burn.

Even a lower end .357 magnum round will have a higher velocity than a .38 spl +p from a two inch revolver. However, velocity is only one part of the equation. You have to look at the bullet construction and, most importantly, the terminal ballistics of the actual load and bullet. A bonded hollow point +p .38 spl may be better than a particular .357 magnum JHP. In fact, some bullets can be driven beyond their design velocities and perform relatively poorly as a result.

Quantrill
August 26, 2010, 07:41 PM
168gr Keith SWC over 4.5 gr Unique.

Jimmy10mm
August 26, 2010, 08:50 PM
So the "short barrel specific" ammo doesn't work better, it's just more pleasant to shoot? Any reason to choose .38Spl+P over .357Mag, other than reduced recoil/flash/noise? I have a 340PD scandium/titanium 2"bbl revolver. I've had it 7 years and shot a few cylinders of magnum and a few of +P and that is all. I found with the magnum rounds the recoil was severe enough to make getting back on target accurately with speed difficult. Not so bad with the +Ps. IME I wouldn't call either of them 'pleasant' to shoot. YMMV. :) BTW, I like shooting 44spl, magnum and 10mm so I'm not someone unfamiliar with recoil and muzzle blast.

Buckeye!
August 26, 2010, 09:08 PM
http://onfinite.com/libraries/1614156/088.jpg

The Ole' "FBI Load" is hard to beat,.... 38 Spl.+P 158 gr. LSWCHP

Rampant_Colt
August 26, 2010, 09:20 PM
One more vote for the +P 158gr LSCHP .38 Special

miker84
August 26, 2010, 09:25 PM
One more vote for the +P 158gr LSCHP .38 Special

I hate to admit it, but I carry my 442 more that any of my tacti-cool pistols

Rampant_Colt
August 26, 2010, 11:05 PM
Federal 125gr & 158gr Nyclad HP are excellent choices, but only the 125gr load is currently available.

Both the .357 Mag and .38 Spcl Remington 125gr Golden Saber are excellent choices for snubnoses as well.

Speer 135gr Short Barrel Gold Dot
Hornady 110gr Critical defense
Buffalo Bore makes a hot 158gr +P LSWCHP

RWK
August 26, 2010, 11:15 PM
I respectfully suggest Buffalo Bore's recent 158 grain .38 Special +P LSWCHP/gas check round; this is an improvement on the venerable, long-proven and highly effective FBI load, and it provides 1000 fps muzzle velocity (351 foot pounds muzzle energy). Given the 158 grain LSWCHP’s (especially +P loads) documented expansion and lethality and the aforementioned velocity and energy figures, I believe this is a real “man stopper” in snub-nosed revolvers so many experienced individuals favor for personal and back-up carry.

ClydeFrog
August 26, 2010, 11:18 PM
For small frame DA revolvers in .357magnum or .38spl +P, I'd check into the following: the Speer Gold Dot 135gr .38spl +P JHP(short barrel), the Corbon 110gr +P+ JHP, the Corbon DPX .38spl round, the Magsafe SWAT .38spl +P, the Buffalo-Bore 158gr lead semi-wadcutter HP +P .38spl, the Winchester Ranger T .38spl +P round, the Remington Golden Saber 110gr JHP in .357 or .38spl +P. Other defense or well made loads from Federal, Hornady, DoubleTap Ammo, or Magtech(Guardian Gold) are on the market but many savvy DA revolver shooters stick with the 110gr or 125-135gr .38spl +P loads. ;)
For .357magnum many like the 110gr JHP or 125gr JHP. Most popular brands will do great; Corbon, Winchester, Remington, Federal, etc.

Rampant_Colt
August 26, 2010, 11:28 PM
Avoid using the Magsafe stuff - especially the SWAT load because it uses a bullet filled with epoxy and has inadequate penetration

Avoid RBCD, Glaser safety Slug and Extreme Shock ammunition for a whole variety of reasons as well

Eagle0711
August 27, 2010, 12:49 PM
Dear RWK: Thanks for that info. on Buffalo Bore. Are those figures for the 2" barrel? I have a delima. Around here knives are a weapon of choice among the local punks and in this heat at times all I have is a S&W 642 in my front pocket. Iv'e been told that this situation is hopeless against a knife at close range by an expert, you know just roll over and die. Well, I will at the minimun do my best to take the attacker with me, or maybe win the encounter. I've been thinking of getting a 640 as you know is a 2" pocket 357 to deal with this growing problem. Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks in advance. Lyle

If you can't shoot faster than the other guy, shoot straighter. Chic Gaylord

RWK
August 27, 2010, 09:33 PM
Eagle,

I recommend you go to this page (http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108), which provides a good deal of detailed technical information re this load, including achieved velocities for specific models and barrel lengths. Generally, however, the figures I cited are for snubbies, such as two-inch S&W J Frames and 2.25-inch Ruger SP-101.

I am FAR from a self-defense expert, however, please allow me to express a respectful opinion re your "dilemma." I would agree that if some felonious critter gets within arm-length (knife range) you probably have a major problem. Therefore, perhaps the key is excellent situational awareness and intuition -- listen to that "gut feeling" -- that keeps you away from those situations. I fully realize that there are times when a confrontation cannot be avoided; however, in most cases outstanding SA combined with avoiding likely danger zones/times (whenever possible) may preclude that fight, which is a fine alternative.

Please forgive my forwardness in expressing the foregoing opinion.

Colorado Redneck
August 27, 2010, 10:34 PM
RWK makes an excellent point. years ago my son and I studied karate under a 3rd degree black belt that had been a professional kick boxer of some renound. He also worked as a professional body guard part time. interesting guy.

He stressed to his students constantly that avoiding actual fighting was the best alternative. he often said that running was perfectly acceptable, and there is no shame associated with that. Only as the last resort would he adovcate fighting.

Same deal with the knife wielding punks mentioned above. Once the gun comes out, all bets are off as you may be at the point of no return. Avoiding these guys is the best thing you can do. Carry the gun, practice a lot, if possible attend training for self defense. But in my opinion, don't get the heat out unless you are sure you have to in order to survive.

Eagle0711
August 28, 2010, 02:12 AM
Dear RKW: Thanks much for the link and your thoughtful comments. Those are impressive balistics for a 2" barrel. I would have way more confidence in my 642. It's accurate and fits my hand well. It will put 5 shots in a quarter size group at 21' with 158 LRN less than an inch above the POI. Your post saved me the trouble of trying to trade and make a deal on a 640. I appreciate your input Colorado Redneck. I have bad feet and knees so running is out, but the awareness stuff is great, along with avoidance, and watching the distance. It's a problem in our area that is a real possibility to have to deal with, Thanks Respectfuly, Lyle

armybass
August 28, 2010, 07:42 AM
The Ole' "FBI Load" is hard to beat,.... 38 Spl.+P 158 gr. LSWCHP
Buckeye!


Absolutely

Buckeye!
August 28, 2010, 09:22 AM
The reason I mentioned about the FBI load, is I just don't like to use the 357mag. with a 2in barrel..Now you'll still have increased Vel. over the 38 spl or the 38 spl +P... but tou'll have great increase in recoil(slower follow up shots ) and muzzel flash....A 3in. barrel SP101 and a 3in barreled Taurus 608 are my snubbies for a 357 Mag. both are heavy (for Size) and able to dampen' the recoil and the 3in barrel will better utilize the 357 mag cartridge performance..in fact my 38 Spl. 85UL wears a 2.5 in barrel..

http://onfinite.com/libraries/1603083/abe.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/1616950/5b7.jpg

Sarge
August 28, 2010, 09:49 AM
Another vote for the 158 grain LSWCHP +P. I'm quite happy with the way that one has worked over the years and never wanted anything more from the .38 Special.

sandbag
August 28, 2010, 09:53 AM
I like the Remington Express or Buffalo Bore FBI(aka "Chicago") load.Federal and Winchester were not as good.
The Remington is HARD to find(I have three boxes that I husband carefully)and Buffalo Bore is easily available but EXPENSIVE).
This ammo is stout in a snubbie.Well,not in the Ruger "Six" series.:)

nate45
August 28, 2010, 09:59 AM
Are there .38 Spl +P loads out there that would actually work better than a .357 load in this application?

No, the 158 and 180 grain .357 loadings hit harder and penetrate deeper, but .38 Special +P is easier for the average person to control.

Just get the +P .38 SP 158 grain Lead Semi Wad-Cutter Hollow point, that several posters have recommended. Or as an alternative the Speer 135 grain +P. You will be well served by either one.

Warhammer
August 28, 2010, 06:13 PM
In reading Buffalo Bore's description of their +P loads they made this point:
Short (2 to 2.5 inch) barreled revolvers have short ejectors. Those short ejectors typically used on 2 inch to 2.5 inch barreled revolvers are not long enough to fully eject 357 magnum brass. So if you are forced into a situation where you need to reload your weapon under fire, you will find yourself picking your fired/empty 357 brass out of the cylinder one at a time...
I think that's actually a pretty good point.

Deaf Smith
August 28, 2010, 06:46 PM
If it's a 5 shot J frame airweight style gun, use Cor-bon DPX ammo!

If a steel frame 5 shot J size gun, Cor-Bon 158gr LSWHP. Clocks out at 850 fps from a 2 inch tube.

If a heavier six shooter, like a M10 2 inch snub or M19 .357, I'd use Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWHP ammo. Makes 1100 from a 2 3/4 inch Speed Six .38!

Deaf

RWK
August 29, 2010, 10:40 AM
I too read Buffalo Bore's caution re ejection. For whatever it is worth, that has not been a problem with my SP-101. The spent cartridge cases extend far enough that I am able simply to place the cylinder "butt down" and lightly tap, and the brass drops free.

Webleymkv
August 29, 2010, 02:22 PM
While there are many good choices in .38 Special, the two that seem to get the most praise are the "FBI load" (158grn LSWCHP +P as loaded by Remington, Winchester, and Buffalo Bore) and Speer's 135grn +P Short Barrel Gold Dot. The Speer loading is actually designed to perform better than other loadings from short barrels, not just to be more pleasant. If you look at the bullet of the Speer, you'll notice that it has a much larger hollowpoint cavity, this is to facilitate expansion even at relatively low velocities. While both the Speer and FBI loadings are excellent, if you're using a lightweight gun I think I might gravitate a bit more towards the Speer as jacketed bullets seem to resist jumping crimp more than lead ones do.

In .357 Magnum, it depends a lot on the shooter. Even from a short barrel, you can get very impressive ballistics from a .357 Magnum but it comes at the price of recoil, which can be excessive in small revolvers. From a purely ballistics standpoint, magnum loadings with bullets of 140 grn and heavier are best as they tend to lose less velocity from short barrels than their lighter, faster counterparts. Cor-Bon 140grn JHP, Winchester 145grn Silvertips, and the 158grn SJHP loadings from Winchester, Remington, and Federal are all good short barrel performers in .357 Magnum. If recoil is an issue, you might be better off using one of the "mid-range" or "medium velocity" .357 Magnum loadings. Good choices in this category include Remington's 125grn Golden Saber, Speer's 135grn Short Barrel Gold Dot (this loading is quite mild and really isn't all that much faster than the .38 +P SBGD), and the various 110grn SJHP loadings from Winchester, Remington, and Federal.

As far as ejecting shorter cases, Ruger SP101's and Colt snubbies have a longer ejector rod than short barreled S&W's. This is because S&W's lock at the end of the ejector rod while newer Rugers (the old Security, Speed, and Police Service Six's locked up like a S&W) and Colts do not. Thusly, Rugers and Colts don't have to have the locking mechanism and can have a longer rod. Even so, I've never found a short ejector rod to be an issue so long as proper reloading technique (point the revolver straight up and give the ejector rod a sharp rap).

Warhammer
August 29, 2010, 03:47 PM
I'm really liking what I'm reading about the Hornady Critical Defense line. I think I might get a box each in .38+P and .357 and see what I think about them. Anyone else have experience/advice/comments about these loads?

rdrancher
August 29, 2010, 05:02 PM
Interesting read here. http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/

rd

LightningJoe
August 29, 2010, 10:56 PM
As the years go by, I grow increasingly conservative about guns. The new-fangled, "magic beans" ammo just doesn't intrigue me. 158-grain LSWCHP for .38 Special. That's what I say. +P if you must. Otherwise, a snubnose may not be the right kind of gun for you.

Whizbang ammo is for wonderguns.

B.N.Real
August 30, 2010, 08:21 PM
You have only five shots.

You might be taking on a knife wielding punk and his friend.

You need to be effective with just where you shoot him (or them,if necessary).

You also need to make sure they don't close on you fast enough to lunge at you and stab you after you have just killed them but they don't realize it yet.

If you can see it quickly and not get too close to the bad guy to get it,make sure you save any weapon the guy tried to use against you before withdrawing from the area if possible to call police.

A speedloader is nice but relatively slow and you would rather not have to depend on it,if there are multiple people trying to rob,attack or possibly kill you.

This is'nt television.

The attackers/robbers are'nt going to give you any choice or chance and a bunch of talking usually is just the bad guy sizing you up for when he can complete his attack on you.

You want to live and frankly they could give a blank about you.

But as others have said,anything you can do ahead of time to prevent the attack is certainly better then being where you know it might happen.

Don't feel alone about rnot being able to run away.

I am too old and too slow to outrun a twenty year old guy with a knife ready to ventilate my chest or back to get my empty wallet.

ClydeFrog
August 30, 2010, 08:40 PM
To the post about short ejector rods, it's a valid complaint BUT some firms like Taurus-USA & Smith and Wesson market snub revolvers with longer rods or better designs. I like the slightly larger 3" barrel models like the L frame 686+ or the Ruger SP101. They are not as small as a Ruger LCR or S&W 442 but spent rounds can drop faster than a older style J-frame(short ejector rod style).
As for pre-fragmented loads like Magsafe SWAT Glaser Safety Slugs, Hornady TAP, etc they have had engineering/design changes & improved designs. New versions can work great for close protection or back-up uses. To me it's unfair to knock a design or feature based on 10/20 year old information. Not all "whiz-bang" or "super-wow" rounds are worth the $$$(like ExtremeShockUSA or the old ThunderZap) but I wouldn't rail against all handgun fragmented loads.

Hosses
April 5, 2011, 09:15 PM
@ Webley

Bumping an old thread here, but do you have any information on the 158gr .357 from Gold Dot?


Someone on youtube did some testing to show velocity of some bullets out of a 2" SP101. The Remington 125gr did a whopping 12xx FPS. The Gold Dot's came in at only 9xx FPS.

I've been trying to decide on a .357 defense load for my new snub nose SP101. What a PITA this search for ammo has been.

MashieNiblick
April 5, 2011, 10:13 PM
For all those advocating FBI loads or .357mag for PD, i will now use physics to disprove this ignorance.

The FBI needs/may need to get through all kinds of barriers w/ bullet, such as, but not limited to:
- car doors
- windows
- house doors

Above are the only reasons whatsoever one would ever wish to carry non hollow point 158gr bullets. For penetration through hard, solid objects.

Unless you firingline.com guys and gals spend your nights on street corners expecting drive-bye attacks this is not the recommended round.

kinetic energy = mass * velocity^2

As you can see velocity is much more important than mass with respect to the delivery of energy into one's target. And all things the same, the lighter the bullet- the more velocity.

Today's modern hollow points are made for/to limit penetration in soft targets as one will never fully know what is behind one's target in a PD situation.

.357mag is overkill, and you may hit a baby behind your ~0.001% chance of ever encountering a self defense situation. Moreover, your followup shots will be less rapid and less accurate.

Here in Texas at least, whoever releases the bullet is 100% liable for impacts even in a successful self defense situation where the bullets passes through target and hits an innocent behind.

That said, Fiocchi makes a 110gr xtp hollow point bullet, .38 special + p with 1100 fps muzzle velocity for like ~$25/50rnd. This is ideal with respect to penetration, energy transfer, economics, and followup shots.

The new Hornady Critical Defense 110gr .38 special + p may be marginally better with respect to penetration if target is in heavy clothing, but they are like ~$25/25rnd, and that will be the only case where this is so.

That is all.

Sarge
April 5, 2011, 10:39 PM
Hosses,

My 2 1/4" Ruger SP101 got 1295 with Federal 125 JHP; 1302 with CCI Blazer in the same weight; around 1150 (lost my notes & need to clock these again) with 145 Silvertips.“Alaska Backpacker” (local to Anchorage?) .357's using a 200 grain hard-cast, gas-checked LBT produced 970 fps.

Hope that helps.

Hosses
April 6, 2011, 01:10 PM
@ Mash:

If you're carrying a full sized .357 in an urban setting, then I'd agree that a .357 magnum load is probably a bit much. However, we're talking about snub nosed .357's here. A lot of velocity is lost.

@ Sarge:

Thanks for the info. Do you know what the expansion was like on the Federal (hydrashock, I assume?)? How was the control-ability for follow up shots?

zxcvbob
April 6, 2011, 01:19 PM
I like .38 Special 158 grain LSWCHP's, but another load that doesn't get enough attention is full-power .38 Special 148 double-ended wadcutters. The main drawback to them is they are hard to use with a speedloader. (so load up your gun with wadcutters, and carry lead HP or RNFP's in your speed loader.)

Jimmy10mm
April 6, 2011, 01:35 PM
Years ago I carried a 640 but sold it because it was too heavy. Replaced it with the 340PD and carried that for 7 years. Sold it and replaced it with a couple of Kahrs in 40 and in 380. I ran up on another 640 a month or two ago and bought it.

Took it to the range and shot some 357 and some +P through it. With boot grips the 357 was punishing to the shooter. With Herrett's trooper stocks (it came with them) it wasn't too bad. With either grip the weight of the 640 tamed the +P recoil to the point where I found it quite comfortable. I imagine if I was to put some Houge rubber grips on it would be even more comfortable to shoot regardless of ammo.

Around here we have to settle for what is on the shelf and I've never had the opportunity to try the new ammo that is prioritized for snubs. One of these days if I run up on some I will. Anyhow, point is that what grips are on the snub make a significant difference in the recoil IME.

stevieboy
April 6, 2011, 08:10 PM
A very timely thread for me. I'm a proud new owner of a S & W Model 19 2 1/2" that will be my primary carry gun. I've been doing some research and I've discovered that Buffalo Bore makes three non +P .38 Special rounds that it describes as "Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Ammunition." These are: 158 Soft Lead 158gr. SWC; 150gr. Hard Cast Wadcutter; and 125gr. JHP. It claims that the soft lead SWCs will NOT cause barrel leading because it is gas checked.

I'm curious and let me add my question to that of the OP. Any of you have any experience with these rounds? I shoot plenty of Magnum and +P rounds through my 4 and 6" revolvers so I'm not faint of heart. But I also know that in a desperate situation getting the gun back on target quickly may actually be more important than shooting powerful rounds. I'm really attracted to this standard pressure ammo because it will, I think, enable faster target acquisition. What do y'all think?

Manco
April 6, 2011, 09:24 PM
For all those advocating FBI loads or .357mag for PD, i will now use physics to disprove this ignorance.

I didn't realize that physics included bullet wounding factors and biology....

The FBI needs/may need to get through all kinds of barriers w/ bullet, such as, but not limited to:
- car doors
- windows
- house doors

Above are the only reasons whatsoever one would ever wish to carry non hollow point 158gr bullets. For penetration through hard, solid objects.

That's nice, but the .38 Special FBI load does have a hollow-point bullet (as does their current .40 S&W load, for that matter)--LSWCHP stands for "lead semi-wadcutter hollow-point."

Unless you firingline.com guys and gals spend your nights on street corners expecting drive-bye attacks this is not the recommended round.

You never know when you may need to penetrate light cover.

kinetic energy = mass * velocity^2

As you can see velocity is much more important than mass with respect to the delivery of energy into one's target. And all things the same, the lighter the bullet- the more velocity.

That's nice too, but physics doesn't tell us what the value of energy is in relation to other wounding factors. I think that the amount of energy in any .38 Special round is so small that it barely does any damage outside of direct contact with the bullet, making any differences between loads negligible. Penetration is far more important, and in physical terms it is momentum that largely enables penetration, with the greater inertia of heavier bullets playing a secondary role in increasing penetration potential (implying that mass and velocity are not entirely equal, despite the fact that both are directly proportional to momentum in a purely mathematical sense). Energy alone tells us nothing, and even momentum is only one of a number of parameters (along with bullet design, construction, and materials, et al.) that determine how a bullet will wound.

Today's modern hollow points are made for/to limit penetration in soft targets as one will never fully know what is behind one's target in a PD situation.

I doubt it because statistically most shots will be misses anyway. It looks to me like they're trying to maximize expansion--which is useful for wounding but even more useful for marketing--while meeting some minimum penetration requirement, which is usually around 12", although it can vary in order to meet the requirements or preferences of different customers.

Deaf Smith
April 6, 2011, 10:09 PM
stevie,

I don't know about the 'non+p' stuff but the .38 Spl Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWHP load out of my 2 inch M64 chronos at 1000 fps (just as they say it does) and out of my 2 3/4 Speed Six they get 1100 fps!

I have no doubt when BB says their non+p stuff gets 850 fps from a 2 inch then it gets 850!

Soon I'll have some 158gr JHP .357s from Buffalo Bore and I'll chrono those out of my 3 inch GP100!

Deaf

Wrangler5
April 6, 2011, 10:15 PM
FWIW, I've chrono'd Speer 135g short barrel Gold Dots out of my S&W 49 at 904fps. I've bought these bullets to reload my own practice rounds, and the fastest I've ever been able to push them is 843fps (using Speer's published +P max load for Power Pistol) and 833fps (using AA#5) out of the same gun over the same chrono screens at the same distance. These are the powders Speer shows as providing the highest velocity at their recommended maximum charge weights.

So Speer is clearly using something other than these powders in their factory loads. And Speer says these bullets need 860fps to expand fully, so obviously I'm going to have to find some other way to speed 'em up if I want to get over that threshhold, even if I can't eventually get to full factory speed.

ipscchef
April 6, 2011, 11:11 PM
MANCO, thank you for correcting some of Mashieniblicks Bulls...., umm, errr, I mean erroneous and incorrect assumptions. It sounds like he just got a "C" in his physics class and wants to show everyone what a genious he is.
I have been carrying a 340pd for a while now. I have worked up a load that sends a 125gr. Hornady XTP out at just about 1155fps., give or take.

I would like to switch to a small 1911 frame, but do not haqve the funds to do so right now, and the current load is giving me more and more pain in my old, very arthritic hands. so I am looking at duplicating the "FBI Load" for my SD needs. I do practice with my full SD loads, I think that is the moast sensible way to be proficient with your weapon.

And yes, I have lost most of the use of my legs although I am only 53, even turning around to get away is a big deal for me. So I want to be able to stop the aggression immediately if it happens, and I think the 158gr. SWCHP, the HP at the end does mean Hollow Point there, MashieN, may be just the ticket.

BTW, MashieNiblic, I have been savagely attacked four times in my life, once in D.C. where I grew up, once in New Orelans, once in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and once in the middle of nowhere in the high desert plains of Northern Arizona. When attacked in D.C., and New Olreans, where I was not allowed to defend myself, I suffered several different wounds when they beat me, but during the other two attacks, I was armed, and was able escape unharmed. I am sure that was just a coincidence, huh. At no time was I just "hanging out on a corner, or whatever" I guess I do not
fit into your little sqiggley line and .001% thingy.
One more thing, you are actualy going to come here and defintivley state that you have the final answer to the velocity vs. mass arguement. That IS a hoot:rolleyes::p

That is all

William Henderson

Sarge
April 7, 2011, 12:47 AM
I've lost count of the people I've put on my ignore list over one or two stupid posts.

Glad you weathered all that in one piece Mr. Henderson. You get grit points from this corner.

Hosses, the Federal load was the old, standard 125 grain magnum HP they have been making for decades and yes, they'll still expand pretty good at 1300 fps depending of course on what they hit. As to recoil, they do buck & beller some but I had no trouble qualifying DA to 25 yards with them in a SP-101.

MashieNiblick
April 8, 2011, 05:02 AM
@ Hosses

In reply to:
If you're carrying a full sized .357 in an urban setting, then I'd agree that a .357 magnum load is probably a bit much. However, we're talking about snub nosed .357's here. A lot of velocity is lost.

i know .38 special + p will more than adequately accomplish the job at hand, so why worry about more power and the potential for overpenetration and inadvertant baby killing?

.38 special + p in upper (and probably mid to lower as well) torso will do more than stop any human.

MashieNiblick
April 8, 2011, 05:22 AM
@ Manco

In reply to:
I didn't realize that physics included bullet wounding factors and biology....

the concept of kinetic energy was first described in its modern sense in 1829 by Gustave-Gaspard Coriolis

we are talking about stopping power here and not vital organ damage and such, correct, Sir?


In Reply to:
That's nice, but the .38 Special FBI load does have a hollow-point bullet (as does their current .40 S&W load, for that matter)--LSWCHP stands for "lead semi-wadcutter hollow-point."

You are correct with regards to the hollow point acronym, thank you for correcting my ignorance.

I will change my statement to:
The only reason one would want to carry a 158gr .38 special + p round would be if it were to be a frequent or occasional occurence in one's line of work to for one to need to shoot through hard, solid objects such as but not limited to:
- car doors
- windows
- walls


In Reply to:
You never know when you may need to penetrate light cover.

Like what in short range with a snubby that a 110gr bullet couldn't handle?


In Reply to:
That's nice too, but physics doesn't tell us what the value of energy is in relation to other wounding factors. I think that the amount of energy in any .38 Special round is so small that it barely does any damage outside of direct contact with the bullet, making any differences between loads negligible. Penetration is far more important, and in physical terms it is momentum that largely enables penetration, with the greater inertia of heavier bullets playing a secondary role in increasing penetration potential (implying that mass and velocity are not entirely equal, despite the fact that both are directly proportional to momentum in a purely mathematical sense). Energy alone tells us nothing, and even momentum is only one of a number of parameters (along with bullet design, construction, and materials, et al.) that determine how a bullet will wound.

If one gets hit in the torso by a .38 special + p round he will do more than go down no matter the bullet weight.

And there's a good chance the round may overpenetrate the target. Have you looked at some good gel testing recently? 13" is enough to get through my fat ass and 1" into the baby being held behind me. . .

We are talking about optimal bullet engineering for personal defense.

If we mis-hit- thank goodness it will probably be enough to stop the perp, and the Fiocchi 110gr round i was speaking of would impart more energy into the perp in a mis-hit, therefore increasing the chances of an off center situation stoppage.


In Reply to:
I doubt it because statistically most shots will be misses anyway. It looks to me like they're trying to maximize expansion--which is useful for wounding but even more useful for marketing--while meeting some minimum penetration requirement, which is usually around 12", although it can vary in order to meet the requirements or preferences of different customers.

More velocity = greater energy
Maximized expansion = limited penetration = less baby killing (in the long run)

chupps
April 8, 2011, 08:27 AM
"While both the Speer and FBI loadings are excellent, if you're using a lightweight gun I think I might gravitate a bit more towards the Speer as jacketed bullets seem to resist jumping crimp more than lead ones do."

- This is why I decided against the Buffalo Bore offering. As per the manual for my 442, I loaded five rounds of the cartridge I was considering, fired four, and removed the last round to check for crimp jumping. The BB had slipped slightly forward. It was explained to me that lead bullets are more slick than jacketed bullets. Speer Gold Dot worked just fine, so that is what I carry.

ratshooter
April 8, 2011, 05:04 PM
.357mag is overkill, and you may hit a baby behind your ~0.001% chance of ever encountering a self defense situation. Moreover, your followup shots will be less rapid and less accurate.

If my chances of needing to use a gun to defend myself are so miniscule then the off chance of a woman holding a baby and standing behind the BG when I fire my gun must be monumental. Maybe Steven Hawkins could do the math on the odds of it happening but I can't. You seem to have a lot of babies in your life.:D

I have a steel framed 21oz snub in 38 and I do like the 158gr hollow point lead bullet. If using a lightweight allow gun I would use the lighter 130gr or less loads.

I bought a Taurus 85 in stainless steel from a friend that wanted a light weight 38. He bought a Taurus model 85UL at the gunshow. We both went shooting that afternoon and used my 158gr reloads with lead bullets. You should have seen the look on his face after the first cylinder full. He couldn't believe the difference in recoil between the two guns. He later sold the ultra light gun. And the rat didn't say a thing to me about wanting to sell it either. I would have bought it.

MashieNiblick
April 8, 2011, 08:37 PM
ratshooter,

your 158gr loads should be more than sufficient, and not overpenetrate a very unlikely human target due to their slower velocities, however if you just wing a perp the chances of stopping the situation without end of life decrease as you will not be transmitting as much energy into the target with said round.

now if you're in the FBI or LE by all means carry such rounds as you never know when you may have to go through hard, solid objects.

i was speaking solely of optimal ammunition for average joe self defense.

ratshooter
April 8, 2011, 08:56 PM
Hello Mash. The 158gr loads I carry are the ones I loaded myself. They have plenty of power and get a little over 900fps from my Taurus snubby. I like these loads and after reading "The Snubby Revolver" and how effective they were in actual shootings that was good enough for me. But like I said I don't think I would care to use them in a light weight gun. In a light weight gun I would use a Hornady 110 XTP because that hollow point will hold together a little better than some of the other HP bullets you can buy in that weight.

Ross Seyfried told about using a snub 38 to finish wounded elk. He choose CCI Gold Dots and found them to be way too soft and said they went about 1/4" into the elk and flattened out against the skull. He switched to hard cast 158gr SWC bullets and a hot powder charge and stated the bullets easily penetrated the elks skull. I like penetration.

I did shoot some hot 357 loads from a friends SP101 and while not pleasant they were not uncontrollable. I actully shot a pretty good group with them double action. I have shot double action so much that I rarely ever shoot a revolver single action. It never occurs to me.

MashieNiblick
April 8, 2011, 09:02 PM
okay, then 158gr, 900fps- you are risking overpenetration

the baby response was emotional i realize, real nonetheless, but there are in fact infinite possibilities for secondary overpenetration wounds and possible death

no law against such ammo, just realize you may be held liable if overpenetration were to ever occur

if you are okay with it, so am i- i was just deriving the optimal round for nominal self defense situations

MashieNiblick
April 8, 2011, 10:29 PM
one more thing, rs,

a 110gr power load has about the same kick (read energy) as your 158 reload (even from a heavy frame), risks overpenetration as well, but here's an important (and often overlooked) additional benefit.

my load will be much louder (read scarier) with more bystander or other perp wind sucking potential.

:D

best regards,
MN :)

Sarge
April 8, 2011, 11:41 PM
The fear of over-penetration is a misconception, which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollowpoint ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves. First, our lawyers are unaware of any sucessful legal action resulting from the injury of a bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous incidents of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough (Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you examine shooting statistics you will see that officers hit the subject somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80% of shots fired never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them – only the ones that might “over-penetrate” the bad guy. Third, as our testing shows, even the most frangible bullets designed specifically for shallow penetration will plug up when striking wood or wallboard and then penetrate like full metal jacket ammunition. We are aware of successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a shot passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will do that.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

michael t
April 8, 2011, 11:59 PM
my load will be much louder (read scarier) with more bystander or other perp wind sucking potential.

MashieNiblick , please enlighten all of us . As to what training you have had Military actual combat or SF training , Police, Gun training sites , Mall ninja classes :rolleyes:.
Where does this vast knowledge of yours come from .
That the sound of a Ruger revolver ,Cocking ,will stop the BG.
Your remove one round of a loaded revolver and dry fire firing pin check . Do you look down barrel when you do this or hold looking in from side.
If one gets hit in the torso by a .38 special + p round he will do more than go down no matter the bullet weight.
38 special + p in upper (and probably mid to lower as well) torso will do more than stop any human. (Really!!!! what else will it do )
The above quote at top and all the other wisdom you have brought forth in last couple days is really enlightening .
You know ALL OF THE ANSWERS EXCEPT WHAT 45 G.A.P. MEANS :eek:
My self I think you just need to go and get some proper training and around here might want to read more and post less.
Many here ,in fact in you case. I would say majority of members have more knowledge and experience than you can hope to have for many years .
Some times better to keep mouth shut and let people think your dumb Rather than open it and prover them right.

Sorry people But I have read all his other posts and had enough of his miss information.

ratshooter
April 9, 2011, 11:29 AM
Thank you Sarge for posting that. I have never seen it before but for years have wondered about that very thing.

If you buy the nastiest hollow point designed to do the most damage in a short amout of distance and you completely miss your intended target now you have just shot an innocent person with the best killer bullet you could find. Maybe a baby to boot. (thats for mashieNiblick):D

I don't by in to the reason we buy hollow points is to minimize penetration. We do it for the same reason hunters use soft points on deer. They just kill better. I use what I use because I want to blow the biggest hole in the BG I can with whatever I am using.

And how do you know how one round is louder than the other? My dad shot at a guy with a 22 revolver. One on each side of his head to run him off. The guy told the police that he heard the bullets go by his ears but didn't say anything about how loud the bang was with a gun fired 3 feet from his face.

And Michael T I can't fogure out mash's sig line either.

Sarge
April 9, 2011, 01:17 PM
You're welcome, Rat. the part I should have bold-typed is ;

The fear of over-penetration is a misconception, which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollowpoint ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves.

Generally, my standard is that my carry load must be able to do significant damage to the vertebral column/spine on a frontal shot; or at the least, punch through muscular arms and drive on into the chest to the major organs. Such a load will routinely exit, or so you would think.

But in recent history I've had to shoot two vicious dogs and one injured deer with .40/165 grain Golden Sabers or Federal HST, and some of that shooting was pouring them on at spitting distance. Critter weight was roughly 105-120 pounds in all cases and they were all running either directly at me or at 90 degrees crossing. I fired 7 shots total, didn't miss and one round (across the chest) exited.

No babies were killed in the making of this documentary.

ratshooter
April 9, 2011, 03:10 PM
No babies were killed in the making of this documentary.

I don't care who you are, thats funny.:D:D:D

langenc
April 9, 2011, 03:21 PM
As to shooting w/out hearing protection-DONT even for a LITTLE 22..

I read about a fellow that shot a 357 in a small apt. He said the shot, vibrated/jarred?? pictures right off the wall!!

What about the ears of those present?? yuk.

Laz
April 9, 2011, 08:57 PM
Some people think an English Bulldog looks great... many more people can't tell one end from the other, even by smell.
ratshooter, I have to admit that I do understand your signature line perfectly well.