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View Full Version : Buying used brass: Once-fired may not mean "fired once"


Real Gun
August 20, 2010, 09:28 AM
In doing a search of the internet and survey of pricing among various used brass vendors, all coming up under "once-fired", I get it that the term "once-fired" has no real integrity unless explicitly stated as such. It seems like some consumer protection action is needed in the used brass market, because it becomes very difficult to compare value and be sure of what one will get.

Let's review...the only way to have truly once-fired brass is from a range that never uses reloads, i.e. always uses new ammo. That is likely to be an exclusively LEO range or more likely a military range. If military, there could be issues with crimped primer pockets and heavier brass.

Why do we care?...because brass is valued based on how many times it can be recylcled on average.

Some brass is deprimed, some cleaned, some polished, and some with reamed primer pockets. That obviously can affect the price, so a closer look would be called for before concluding too much from the prices shown.

I don't have any particular conclusions except to say at this point which vendors give me the best feeling about buying from them. There were some that I didn't include because they didn't appear to have any in stock of the 9mm I was using as my search at the time.

Price shown is per 1000


brassmanbrass.com 56
oncefiredbrass.com 40-56
brassworldeshop.com 42.50
luckygunner.com (WCC) 35
once-fired-brass.com 42
olddominioncartridgeco.com WCC 37.50, mixed 27.50
cheyennebrass.com 47; decapped,reamed,polished 55
kbarcartridge.com 30
blue-star-inc.com 67
bluestarbrass.com 50
tjconevera.com 48
rvow.com 15 probably genuine once-fired
brassdirect.com 50
onetimebrass.com WCC 45
seminolebrassandbullet.com 40.30
topbrassreloading.com 32 cleaned and polished, mixed
mcssl.com, affordablebrassandbullets.com 52
precisionreloading.com 110.00
dominionshootingrange.com 40 cleaned and polished
gibrass.com WCC 40, add 15 for decap, ream, and polish
leobrass.com 20 (special, reg 40)
bbrbrass.com 61


It looks to me like the genuine once-fired stuff is in the $45 range. The anomaly of rvow.com at 15 for what looks like the real thing certainly deserves attention.

What I think is needed is some regulation that brass cannot be referred to as "once-fired" unless meeting some basic criteria, recognizing that any absolute guarantee would not be very practical. Obviously, mixed commercial range brass is definitely not the same thing, and no one would have a clue how many times a case had been used. A few vendors appear to have some integrity in this regard, but I am sure they are all struggling to compete in what is a very unfair market. As a consumer, it is some real effort knowing where to start and get the real thing for a fair price.

oneounceload
August 20, 2010, 09:32 AM
What I think is needed is some regulation

No, we need better informed consumers, not more regulations, laws, etc.

demigod
August 20, 2010, 09:52 AM
1. 9mm brass will likely get lost before it wears out so... who cares how many times it's been fired? (rifle brass is another story)

2. Buying brass is repulsive to me. I just pick it up. 9mm is everywhere. I end up dumping more 9mm brass in the recycler than I load since it's too much work to process it all.

3. If I need brass, I'll buy factory ammo and shoot it to get the brass. I would never support the used brass market. And if I have extra brass that someone needs, I give it away.

Unclenick
August 20, 2010, 09:59 AM
The vast bulk of used brass is military in a military caliber. so it is once-fired. Civilian sources are mixed and require sorting and there is usually no way to know how many times it has been fired by looking at it. That makes regulation futile, as the regulators couldn't tell, either. Not to mention, the cost of regulation would likely make used brass more expensive than new.

Keep in mind that you are trying to save money by recycling scrap. It is rare for scrap to be perfect. You need to inspect it. That's the price of the savings. You spend your money or you spend your labor. There is no free lunch.

I suppose if you really had your panties in a bunch, and could somehow prove, beyond subjective suspicion, that you got brass that had undergone multiple reloadings, you could sue for false advertising based on the "once-fired" claim. Maybe you could get them to change that to "mostly once-fired brass"?

Given the size of NATO chambers in military guns, plus the hard extraction, the stretch at first firing can be more than several firings in a civilian chamber produces. In rifle brass, use an unfolded paper clip with bent tip to feel for a pressure ring. If you can feel a clearly defined one, that piece of brass is already a head separation waiting to happen, regardless of whether it is once, twice, thrice fired, or more.

The other main difference is that multiple resizings harden mouths and necks. Figure to anneal any rifle brass you are uncertain of. I don't know of anyone bothering to do that with pistol brass. It's been too cheap not to simply replace it in the past (though the way things are going, that may not continue to be the case). Again, you pay your money or you pay with extra labor.

Real Gun
August 20, 2010, 10:04 AM
Since when is "false advertising" okay? It depends whose ox is gored, I guess.

Edward429451
August 20, 2010, 10:11 AM
False advertising is not ok but this is a matter of just being realistic.

Real Gun
August 20, 2010, 10:16 AM
If the cases came from a private LEO or military range, I would like to know that. It tells me the likelihood of the brass being good quality and used only once so far. In the case of 9mm, I would know that I would not be overworking primer pockets to ream them all.

It is probably best not to get lost in the trees with the topic of 9mm. The subject applies to all calibers, and the vendors carry most of them.

People do buy used brass, at least on occasion, so if one cannot relate to that, perhaps the person has nothing productive to add here.

ljnowell
August 20, 2010, 12:29 PM
I do know that I quit buying over the forums. The last three times I have bought 1x fired brass from an individual it was plainly obvious that they had been reloaded at least once and in many cases several times.

flashhole
August 20, 2010, 03:34 PM
What I think is needed is some regulation ....

The present administration is trying to regulate you right out of existence. Regulation ... we don't got no stinking regulation ... we don't need no stinking regulation ... and then the shooting started.

Real Gun
August 20, 2010, 04:05 PM
"Regulation" can be a law against false advertising or even a boycott of some business that blatantly abuses the term "once-fired". Gun people don't need to get there powder wet arguing about government. The only right way to do it is legally, and that may mean legislation. We can't just pick the laws we like or that serve our purposes. Simply having a forum with a white list or blacklist for purchasing used brass is a potentially effective way of "regulating".

Unclenick
August 20, 2010, 05:16 PM
Since when is "false advertising" okay? It depends whose ox is gored, I guess.

Real Gun,

You'd have to show me where I said false advertising was OK? I simply pointed out you need some means to prove they are advertising falsely, either knowingly or negligently. Unfortunately for your case, all you have thus far is technically what is referred to as a gratuitous assertion—speaking of something as fact when it has not been proven to be fact—that they advertise falsely. It's pretty much analogous to your gratuitous implication that I'd suggested false advertising was OK.

Every reloader I've ever known is a brass hound who does everything within his power to collect each and every last case he fires (as well as some he didn't, if they're abandoned). Unless there is some other breed of handloader out there that I've never met, the percentage of reloadable cases left at ranges by these persons is a minuscule percentage of the brass the range collects. Some commercial ranges won't allow you to police brass beyond the firing line because they collect and sell it as part of their income stream. Neither I nor any other handloader I know will frequent those ranges using anything but .22 rimfire or aluminum or steel-cased ammo in semi-autos. Thus, even though persons selling "once-fired" brass cannot prove each and every case is only once-fired anymore than you can prove one is not, simple self-interest on the part of handloaders suggests the odds are against much of it being anything else. Regulation in this situation would be an overreaction, IMHO, but you seem to feel otherwise. That's up to you.

Real Gun
August 20, 2010, 05:33 PM
You'd have to show me where I said false advertising was OK?My post doesn't indicate that I was quoting you or responding directly to your post. By the time we get done composing a reply other posts can duck in underneath. When I intend to parse and quote, I do so.

maggys drawers
August 20, 2010, 06:04 PM
Good luck on rvow as a brass source. Last I heard the guy that ran it had died and it was out of business but their web site was still up.

I had gotten a couple orders from them, and they had good quality stuff. Wish they were still around.

bullspotter
August 20, 2010, 07:25 PM
I think the term once fired means the seller is absoulty positve the brass has been fired at least one time, To me new brass has never been fired, and once fired brass has been used, maybe 8 or 9 times, we never know, but were sure it been fired at least once no? :D

bluetopper
August 20, 2010, 08:46 PM
Only a Liberal would want more regulation.:barf::)

CrustyFN
August 20, 2010, 08:59 PM
If the cases came from a private LEO or military range, I would like to know that. It tells me the likelihood of the brass being good quality and used only once so far.

It also tells me that it was shot from a machine gun which usually has a generous chamber and expanded more than it would have if shot from a normal semi-auto. Also you will have primer pockets to ream. I have to agree with demigod, I have never bought brass and always picked it up at the range or after a match. I have thousands of cases for every caliber I shoot. It's too easy to get unless you are looking for odd calibers or revolver brass can be hard to find sometimes.

CrustyFN
August 20, 2010, 09:05 PM
Good luck on rvow as a brass source. Last I heard the guy that ran it had died and it was out of business but their web site was still up.

I had gotten a couple orders from them, and they had good quality stuff. Wish they were still around.

I personally wouldn't get anything from RVO. I did buy some .224 bullets and got a great deal and shipped in a reasonable time. That was just before he died, around two years ago. She is still running the business but they are so involved in trying to have everything ready for gun shows that they forget they have other customers. I have talked to many people that sent brass in to get processed and never got their brass back or heard from them in over a year. They used to be a very good company to deal with in my experience but those days are long gone.

DiscoRacing
August 20, 2010, 09:21 PM
those problems all go away when I get new brass from starline:eek:

sserdlihc
August 20, 2010, 09:22 PM
Every reloader I've ever known is a brass hound who does everything within his power to collect each and every last case he fires (as well as some he didn't, if they're abandoned).

Exactly!

So, you think we need to set up some type of over sight comittee, to regulate brass and determine if it is once fired, twice fired, etc? Yeah, that sounds logical. Come on fella, if you are that concerned about your brass, buy new from Hornady, Remington , Nosler or any other respected manufacturer. Load em up, fire form them and be done with it. :D;)

I can understand that you want people to be ethical. However, what you want is not realistic.

Real Gun
August 20, 2010, 11:55 PM
So, you think we need to set up some type of over sight comittee, to regulate brass and determine if it is once fired, twice fired, etc? Yeah, that sounds logical.

reductio ad absurdum

Jimmy10mm
August 21, 2010, 12:51 AM
Only a Liberal would want more regulation. They aren't liberals anymore, they are progressives. :rolleyes:

I buy new brass and mark the end of the case with a magic marker after I fire it and tumble it. I try and keep track of how many times I use it by different colored markers. This is probably not even necessary but if it is out of a semi auto and I am at a range it is easier to police the brass and know it is mine. If it out of a revolver that isn't an issue of course. Still, I like to have an idea of how many times I've reloaded cases.

medalguy
August 21, 2010, 01:36 AM
Keep in mind commercial resellers buy brass from many sources, and there's just no way they can look at every single round of brass and determine if it's been fired once or more than once. Even leo and military brass can be reloaded. Two years ago I bought a container full of rifle brass from Ft Riley scrap sales and I was very surprised at the amount of match brass that had been reloaded many times, to the point that many necks were cracked. I guess the match shooters reloaded until it was no good, then turned it in. Do you want to inspect a 55 gallon drum or two of brass to see if it's all once fired, round by round?

If you want guaranteed once-fired brass, be prepared to pay for the examination and processing. I would guess a price of about 25 cents per round would be about right. New brass can be bought for, what???

csmsss
August 21, 2010, 07:23 AM
So...let me see. The sole basis for your conclusion that some brass merchandisers are defrauding customers is that some charge more than others? No? So what is the basis for your claim, exactly? Your feelings? Please explain how you can make sweeping generalizations with no support whatsoever.

Real Gun
August 21, 2010, 07:55 AM
So...let me see. The sole basis for your conclusion that some brass merchandisers are defrauding customers is that some charge more than others? No? So what is the basis for your claim, exactly? Your feelings? Please explain how you can make sweeping generalizations with no support whatsoever.

If you bother to go to the websites and actually read the descriptions, I think you will see that much of the brass is mixed commercial range stuff yet represented as once-fired along side other sites that suggest more legitimately "new" brass.

What is this adversarial tone and feeding frenzy a number seem to think is appropriate here? Could we please just share ideas about where to buy legitimately once-fired brass and what suppliers to avoid.

Sevens
August 21, 2010, 08:03 AM
Could we please just share ideas about where to buy legitimately once-fired brass
It seems painfully obvious that there is only one way to accomplish such a grand feat: Watch someone crack a factory case, burn through it, and purchase their empties.

Otherwise, caveat emptor.

It seems to me like most everyone is finding their way. I know that this isn't an epidemic that's keeping me up at night.

If it's a genuine problem for someone, used brass is not for them. Again, this doesn't seem like a colossal problem when you consider all the sources for factory fresh brass. If factory fresh brass is what allows one to sleep at night, one should not go on the cheap with someone else's unwanted leftovers.

Much ado about nothing here, no matter how hard or how often one tries to spin it.

Real Gun
August 21, 2010, 08:08 AM
Keep in mind commercial resellers buy brass from many sources, and there's just no way they can look at every single round of brass and determine if it's been fired once or more than once. Even leo and military brass can be reloaded. Two years ago I bought a container full of rifle brass from Ft Riley scrap sales and I was very surprised at the amount of match brass that had been reloaded many times, to the point that many necks were cracked. I guess the match shooters reloaded until it was no good, then turned it in. Do you want to inspect a 55 gallon drum or two of brass to see if it's all once fired, round by round?

If you want guaranteed once-fired brass, be prepared to pay for the examination and processing. I would guess a price of about 25 cents per round would be about right. New brass can be bought for, what???

You seem to imply that no brass can be legitimately called "once-fired". I doubt that is correct. I believe I already allowed that there would be no practical, 100% guarantee. It's just that when one clearly has no basis for claiming once-fired, the term should not apply. By your reckoning, perhaps no one should be using the term instead of nearly everyone and seemingly with no conscience about it at all.

Let's not try to say no one needs used brass. That clearly is not true, because there are many vendors who apparenetly have a business with it and very likely have customers buying it. At least ones initial supply has to come from somewhere, not necessarily off some floor or off the ground, and definitely not at the price of new brass, although that sometimes happens too.

Don't try to suggest what regulation or control means to me. I never defined it. Some absurd, impractical scenario is not something I ever wrote. I think it is probably straightforward enough to report instances of false advertising. The challenge will be in demonstrating that the brass was not "once-fired". A challenge to a supplier's sources would probably be a place to start. Once-fired is actually a very rigid thing, so I think most vendors would have to represent their brass as "mixed range", priced accordingly.

Charging a premium for "once-fired" is asking for a customer dispute. There would or should be some demonstrable difference between the premium brass and the less expensive grade.

CrustyFN
August 21, 2010, 10:57 AM
I think you will see that much of the brass is mixed commercial range stuff yet represented as once-fired along side other sites that suggest more legitimately "new" brass.

Just because they are selling batches of mixed head stamp doesn't mean it's not once fired. When I RO a match at the club I will get the brass from the stage I am working. I can see it's all new brass because of the factory boxes and how shiny it is when I pick it up. I will end up with around 1,500 to 2,000 cases and a lot of different head stamps and it's all once fired.

sserdlihc
August 21, 2010, 11:28 AM
reductio ad absurdum

You are correct. It is an absurd solution to absurd problem. You percieve this as an issue. However, by the posts on your thread, the majority on TFL do not.

Unclenick
August 21, 2010, 11:39 AM
God bless Law Enforcement departments who practice at private ranges they don't own. New brass, all abandoned, all around you after they go home.

I have a bag of military once-fired .223 cases from a fellow board member who could not get them to chamber no matter what he did to them. I measured that he had succeeded in resizing some up to 8 thousandths short of minimum and they still wouldn't fit his chamber. All machine gun stuff. Bent rims and fat bases that prevented chambering, but once-fired. I think he was having to reject close to half of what he had for this reason.

Obviously different factors make some brass better than other brass, but it seems to me pretty clear that because being once-fired isn't always very exclusive of bad brass, it doesn't really serve well as a quality criterion. You still end up inspecting in detail and probably rejecting some percentage. Some other filter is needed.

Perhaps the best route to go is to find a supplier whose inspection process you trust. I would expect a supplier like Scharch, who does complete processing, including cleaning, resizing, crimp removal and trimming has the best opportunity to reject bad brass, check chambering and look for cracks or other damage. But you do pay up to double or so for all that extra effort.

ScottRiqui
August 21, 2010, 12:08 PM
I get all my brass from the local Marine Corps shooting range. Almost all once-fired, and the range doesn't allow full-auto fire so no "machine gun" brass. They sell the brass for $3/pound and let you pick out the brass you want. Plus, they tell me that a full five-gallon bucket only weighs 35 pounds!

The only drawback is sorting through all the 9 mm casings - it seems to make up about 40% of the total brass in their barrels.

44 AMP
August 21, 2010, 12:18 PM
Since you apparently do not recognize the implied "at least" in once fired brass description, the simple 'regulatory" solution is to require actually printing those two words in their advertisements.

Any other kind of "regulation" is more likely to have the effect of stopping used brass sales than it is to police the quality level of each and every advertised case.

My experience over the last 4 decades has been that the bulk of "once fired" brass is actually once fired. But that doesn't mean it is perfect, or even fully suitable for further reloading.

Once fired brass from a GLock, I won't touch. It is trash, and suitable only for scrap recycle. I got some .303 British cases once that failed (head separation) on their first reloaded firing.

When you get brass like that, bite the bullet (enconomically speaking), chalk it up to bad luck, and move on. The overall saving over the cost of new brass is huge, and enough to overlook/absorb the occassional bad cases. At least, it is for me.

I think the reason you got such heated responses is because you proposed regulation, which means government involvement, which has, historically proven to be a bad thing for us all. It is a further expression of the attitude common to folks (most of whom are now calling themselves liberals/progressives) that, when they see a problem, the automatic response is "there ought to be a law!"

This is what a lot of gunowners (who would describe themselves as conservative or libertarian) believe to be the reason we are in such a sorry state today. Call it a cultural meme, or anything you want, the base concept that every problem need to be resolved through laws and regulations upsets a lot of us.

Real Gun
August 21, 2010, 01:23 PM
The subject of machine gun distortion of brass is a red herring in terms of hand gun brass. What would be a real issue, probably for both types of cartridges, is bulged cases, but with the straight walled cases of common handgun calibers, gauges and dies are available to both identify and fix the sizing issues rather routinely.

Real Gun
August 21, 2010, 02:51 PM
Since you apparently do not recognize the implied "at least" in once fired brass description, the simple 'regulatory" solution is to require actually printing those two words in their advertisements.
I noticed a number of the vendors, to which I would give credit, use the term "fired', with no mention of the word "once". I don't believe there is any specialized language involved here.

sc928porsche
August 22, 2010, 05:24 AM
I want some only fired by little old ladies on sunday brass.

doug66
August 22, 2010, 07:03 AM
God bless Law Enforcement departments who practice at private ranges they don't own. New brass, all abandoned, all around you after they go home Unclenick

It is just like Christmas when you follow the cops at the range.

I've always found it hard to complain when buying something "used". Buyer beware.

F. Guffey
August 22, 2010, 08:20 AM
Then there is the spring back factor? and the other factor? the case is not fully grown until it is fired 5 times and all those other factors that are just made up.

Not every case I purchase is going to be loaded and fired, some will have the primer pocket/flash hole drilled out to accommodate a cleaning rod for determining chamber length for max COL (case overall length) others will be made into transfers and head space gages.

My favorite case is the one that has been fired in a long chamber, moving a shoulder back is easy moving it forward requires firing, I let someone else move the shoulder out, determining which cases have been fired in long chambers takes (me) seconds with the most fundamental of tools, others reloaders require the expensive $80.00 plus tool.

F. Guffey

jbrown13
August 22, 2010, 11:36 AM
Once fired brass from a GLock, I won't touch. It is trash, and suitable only for scrap recycle.

Surely you jest. There are many of us that reload brass fired in Glock pistols, and those reloaded rounds pass a Dillon case gauge test. Talk about absurd.

flashhole
August 22, 2010, 11:46 AM
Both Lee and Redding make a pass-through die that gets rid of the Glock bulge. Nothing wrong with brass been fired in a Glock providing you recognize there may be some special processing required prior to use.

jbrown13
August 22, 2010, 01:09 PM
Both Lee and Redding make a pass-through die that gets rid of the Glock bulge. Nothing wrong with brass been fired in a Glock providing you recognize there may be some special processing required prior to use.

IMHO, this "bulge" only occurs in the 40 S&W early generation Glocks. I have reloaded tens of thousands of 9mm brass shot in a Glock without any "special processing prior to use". These pass-through dies would have been more relevant 20 years ago, but I'm not sure they are worth the time and trouble today. In fact, the Redding G-Rx die is only available in 40 S&W. Lee offers their "Bulge Buster Kit" in additional calibers, but not all for Glock brass. They offer a .380 ACP Kit and Glock does not sell a 380 ACP pistol in USSA. I have seen some bulged 380 brass from some of these "mouse" guns that are so popular today, but that was so badly bulged I wouldn't feel safe attempting to re-use it. I haven't been able to track down what gun it came from, and don't know if it is an inherent problem with one brand or a problem with one specific gun.

Real Gun
August 22, 2010, 01:18 PM
Both Lee and Redding make a pass-through die that gets rid of the Glock bulge. Nothing wrong with brass been fired in a Glock providing you recognize there may be some special processing required prior to use.

I believe that only applies to .40 S&W. I have requested a quote from Redding on a sizing die, preferably a G-Rx with its special ram gizmo. That die would be with a 10mm throat, so that a 9mm case with a 10mm head will pass through, limiting any bulge to the chamber size provided for the head. The body of the case would still have to be sized by conventional means since it is tapered. Current sizing dies are not addressing the area around the base and shielded by any shellholder. It would have to be at least a two stage size anyway. This would address salvaging those cases that were sized but which will not drop all the way into a gauge (or the actual barrel chamber) risking an FTF or FTE (stuck).

If you have enough gadgets to rework brass, you don't need to be quite so concerned about what gun was shooting it. How many times the brass has been worked is more the issue, because it relates to the useful life and then value of what you are purchasing.

FlyFish
August 22, 2010, 01:24 PM
Interesting discussion. The problem seems to be in the definition of the term "once" which can mean "one time" or "previously," which could mean one time or many times - the implied "at least" that an earlier poster referred to.

Rightly or wrongly, I've always interpreted the term "once-fired" in the sense of "one time,", i.e., the brass has been loaded once and fired. Period. Otherwise, there would be no need to call it that - it would simply be used brass or fired brass. It seems that some here think of it in the sense of "previously" and it doesn't bother them - that's honestly never occurred to me before. I would consider advertising brass that's been loaded and fired multiple times as "once-fired" to be deceptive marketing, but maybe I'm the one that's out of step on this.

As a practical matter, brass that's been truly "once fired" tends to retain some of its brassy shine on the inside and has brass-colored primers rather than the nickeled ones that are commonly sold for reloading. There are exceptions, I know, but I think that's not a bad rule of thumb.

alloy
August 22, 2010, 01:25 PM
I think I left 500 pieces of 9mm winchester on the ground this morning.
It was once fired.
If I had gathered it to sell for 20 bux....we would have to discuss how I know it was once fired.
And then you wouldn't believe me anyway.:D

Gets to a point where you can actually have more brass than you could ever use.

Raven Armament
August 22, 2010, 07:02 PM
I sell bulk used brass.

I call it range brass because it's from a firing range.

It is sorted for cosmetic blemishes as is and with all faults.

It's up to the reloader to perform suitable quality and safety inspection.

I make sure they get "pretty" brass.

The rest is up to them.

Sevens
August 22, 2010, 09:45 PM
I have seen some bulged 380 brass from some of these "mouse" guns that are so popular today, but that was so badly bulged I wouldn't feel safe attempting to re-use it. I haven't been able to track down what gun it came from, and don't know if it is an inherent problem with one brand or a problem with one specific gun.
My first guess would be that it was fired from a non-.380 pistol by some goof at the range. 9mm Mak, maybe.

mongoose33
August 23, 2010, 08:34 AM
I'm not sure why, especially in 9mm pistol brass, it matters so much.

As was noted, this stuff can be reloaded many, many times, especially if you're not shooting particularly hot loads. I have a couple thousand 9mm cases, a couple thousand .45 cases, and while I do pick up range brass, I consider my stock to be essentially a lifetime supply.

I was shooting some of my indeterminate-reload-cycle 9mm and .45 reloaded rounds last week. Nothing in the results would have indicated any problem at all, in fact, I was a bit more accurate than usual.

Rifle brass, yes, a different deal. But pistol brass? I don't worry about it.

jbrown13
August 23, 2010, 12:08 PM
My first guess would be that it was fired from a non-.380 pistol by some goof at the range. 9mm Mak, maybe.

I didn't think so, nor did the range owner and others I showed it to, but that is a possibility. I have seen 9mm brass that was fired in a 40S&W pistol, and that bulge was pretty much the entire length of the brass. With a 380 in a 9 Mak there would be a difference of only .008", and again I think the bulge would be most of the length of the brass. The 380 brass I picked up (10 or 12 pieces at two different times) had a bulge that was only on the bottom third of the brass and there was a defined "smiley" on the bullet side of the bulge. The bulge was only on one side of the brass. The bulge was quite severe, I'm guessing 50 or 60 thousandths high. It it the oddest bulge I have ever seen. Gave me the sense that it might be what a piece of brass would look like if it was fired grossly out of battery. It was picked up at my regular (twice a week) indoor range, so I'm hoping the shooter will be there when I come across it again.

langenc
August 23, 2010, 08:10 PM
If military, there could be issues with crimped primer pockets and heavier brass.Copied from #1 post..

Did you ever weigfh 20 military and compare to 20 commercial. Id bet they are very close.

I read about that in 223 and it aint so-at least on mine. FC will weigh more than much military.

Uncle Buck
August 24, 2010, 08:38 AM
I bought 1000 pieces of once fired .38 Special Brass for $42.00 (including shipping) from a guy who advertised here on TFL Forum. He actually sent me 1058 pieces.

Most of it was very good brass. I found four .357 Magnum Cases, One case still loaded with a wad-cutter in it and two pieces that looked like it had been dug out of the mud. I still ended up with enough brass to keep me busy and shooting for quite awhile. These five pieces of brass aside, I still thought I got a heck of a deal.

Unclenick
August 24, 2010, 03:12 PM
I read about that in 223 and it aint so-at least on mine. FC will weigh more than much military.

You are correct, for the most part. Federal brass tends to be a bit softer than most, so they need the thickness on their .223. Some folks refuse to reuse them because of the softness (Dan Newberry, most notably). Apparently some European 5.56 NATO brass it tight because QuickLOAD's default gives it less water capacity, but I don't know whose that was based on?

The main place you see military brass being heavier than commercial is in .308 verses 7.62 NATO. The last time I weighed .308 brass, it came out:

IMI 186 grains (military)
LC 181 grains (military)
Lapua 171 grains
Rem 168 grains
Win 156 grains

That's three and a half grains water capacity difference between Winchester and IMI, assuming identical exterior dimensions. I don't see this sort of difference in either .223 or .30-06, except Winchester .30-06 is about ten grains light, so it has not quite 1.2 grains more water capacity, where Remington and Lake City are a match at about 203 grains, IIRC.

Fred50
October 3, 2010, 02:50 PM
I sell brass on the web and yes it says once fired brass. I also state on my sight that no one can guarentee they are selling all once fired brass. In the 2 years I have been selling brass I have had 2 complaints about brass I shipped. One was I sent the person nickle plated 300 win mag brass which I stated on my site that all brass could be a mix of brass, nickle brass or any combo and that if you wanted one or the other you could give me a call. He obviously did not read what I put on the main page of my site. I am not in business to cheat people as this and gun shows are my living. I offered to refund his money and he hung up on me. I refunded his card anyway. The second complaint was about some mixed 223 brass not being once fired. He was correct and I refunded his credit card and he kept the brass even though he did not want a refund. Some people are picky about their brass and will only shoot new. I have been reloading for 30+ years and have reloaded pistol brass 10-15 times no problems!! Rifle brass is a different story it does not last as long higher pressures. If anyone has a problem with what I sell them I go out of my way to resolve the problems! If you are going to gripe about once fired brass then buy new brass. I reload and sell ammo at gun shows and I use the brass I pick up from my ranges to do this have and never had a complaint. Yes had I thought about it I would not have put once fired on my website. I have modified the site the 2 times I got the complaints. So I was not mis-leading my customers. For your info there are quite a few LEOs that use reloads when training!! So if someone says all there brass is gaurenteed once fired chances are good they are lying.

CrustyFN
October 4, 2010, 06:16 PM
If you are going to gripe about once fired brass then buy new brass.

Exactly. I also don't know very many people that can pick up a piece of brass from the gravel at the range and tell how many times it has been fired. I have once fired brass and brass that has been fired many times in my bucket. It's all clean and shiny and I bet nobody can pick out the once fired.

For your info there are quite a few LEOs that use reloads when training!! So if someone says all there brass is gaurenteed once fired chances are good they are lying.

Very ture.

m&p45acp10+1
October 4, 2010, 10:21 PM
I have a realy good way to assure brass is once fired. I watch for guys that show up with bags from Walmart, and Acadamy. I picked up 100 .308 Hornady Match brass the guy fired, then put back into the holder slid back into the box, then put it the bag, and dropped it into the brass bucket on his way out. Heck the recipt was still in the bag.:p Another guy did the same with 40 pieces each of 300 RUM, and .300 Wby. Mag Weatherby brass:eek:.
I just love the guys like that. They leave such good trade fodder.:D

k9cougar
October 5, 2010, 12:13 AM
Just ordered a 1000 9MM brass pieces from LEO.com. With shipping it was $31 for the 1000. You have to order it in packages of 100 going for $2 per 100. A friend gave me 500 brass cases and I bought about 500 when I started reloading about a year ago. Shoot around 150 - 250 rounds a week and my supply is finally starting to whittle down to about 300 so I thought I would give this a shot. States I should receive my order by the end of the week. We'll see.

bhannah
October 5, 2010, 04:40 PM
As long as I have been reloading, and as many other guys I know that reload,
and buy "once fired brass" I have never known any one of them to gripe.
We just assume some will be crap.

Did you believe the used car dealer when he said the car was driven by a little old lady?

By the way I have a bridge for sale..

I bet if you buy a new bag of brass and have to trim or work out a crushed one you gripe as well.

Just goes to further my point some people will bitch about anything...

Real Gun
October 5, 2010, 06:04 PM
Did you believe the used car dealer when he said the car was driven by a little old lady?

By the way I have a bridge for sale..

But that lack of integrity is exactly what this thread was about. One who advertises brass using the term "once fired" and who appreciates what those words really mean cannot be trusted because he cannot prove or legitimately certify how many times each and every case has been fired, let alone only once. It's all fine, as long as no one is misled into thinking what they are buying is somehow higher grade than anyone else's used brass and worth some premium price.

Clark
October 7, 2010, 10:37 AM
I have many times my weight in brass that is not new.

I have bought a lot of once fired.
I have bought a lot that was just used.

I don't think I have ever been sold, by institution or individual, that was called once fired that turned out to be fired many times.

But there is always a first time for me to victimized by false advertising.

I bought a VXIII scope off Ebay that turned out to be Vari-x-III.

grubbylabs
October 7, 2010, 12:22 PM
I have bought a few hundred 45 pieces of used brass(maybe 500 or a little more) and I have no idea how many times I have fired it, I clean it inspect it and reuse it. On the other hand I only have about 300 pieces of 308. I don't generally buy used 308 brass because I can buy 50 new pieces for about 20.00. However at the range the last week I was given about 72 pieces by our local swat sniper team and I found a another box worth. I know the sniper brass was once fired, I watched them pull it out of the box and load it into his gun, I can only assume that the other 20 I got were once fired since they were very shiny and new looking. But either way I was way happy to find almost a 100 pieces of good brass. I agree with the used is used, its kinda like ebay buy at your own risk.

Paul lavallee
October 7, 2010, 12:40 PM
Does anyone know who the major manufacturers of pistol brass are. Just does not seem possible that every headstamped name is a manufacturer of that brass. I would think several of these are made by the same company and if I could find out it might make sorting a lot quicker. Just a thought, maybe I am on the wrong track. Thanks for any help. Paul

grubbylabs
October 7, 2010, 08:35 PM
I did a scrounging expedition at the range to day and came up with a few pounds of brass. Some 30-30 and some 300 win mag and also some 223. I will clean it up and see what I have. Might have some "range brass" for sale or trade soon.

Shootinjh
March 18, 2011, 03:14 PM
"When your response to everything that is wrong with the world is to say, 'there ought to be a law,' you are saying that you hold freedom very cheap." -- Dr. Thomas Sowell

I like the later post by the OP author about self-regulating, but buyer beware is even better! Government regulation of stuff is not very successful. I love eBay and other "reputation" devices.

hk33ka1
March 18, 2011, 05:59 PM
I think the big ammo makers make their own brass and then some for smaller companies. Winchester makes most of their own, and they also sell restamped stuff for smaller companies like Hornady too. I think Prvi Partisan might make Wins Russian 7,62 stuff.

Starline makes brass as *-* Starline, and sells stamped stuff to others as well. If there's 10 ammo makers, theres likely 4 brass makers etc...

m&p45acp10+1
March 18, 2011, 06:27 PM
The only brass I have purchased has all been new. I have picked up a lot of brass at the range though. Last weekend a guy left me 150 starline .41 mag that was true once fired. I will be using it myself in my RBH.

Not to mention the 5 gal bucket full of .45 acp, 9mm luger, and .223 rem brass I have picked up. :D

medalguy
March 18, 2011, 11:45 PM
I've noticed that most ads for brass generally state "APPEARS once-fired" which lets them off the hook. And nearly all sellers will tell you they throw in a few extras "for any that might not be good."

I've bought milsurp brass at scrap auctions and resold it. Last batch I got was .308 and there was a lot of match brass in there, some was clearly reloaded many times and I tossed all that out that I found. Did I likely miss a few rounds out of 3,000 pounds? Yep probably. Do I worry about it? Nope. I put extra brass in every lot I sold to make up for any that might not have been good. :)

Do we need any new laws or regulations to cover brass? Maybe there's a few extras already to make up for any that might not be good.

amamnn
March 19, 2011, 04:35 PM
I guess if you believe that once fired means the same as fired once means that you believe that when someone says "once upon a time Red Riding hood........." means that you are only the second person to hear the story. There is an endless supply of cheaters, thieves and "businessmen" and some of them sell brass. As with anything used--you have to check it out or be prepared to take a hit in the wallet.

HiBC
March 20, 2011, 07:50 PM
I certainly do not want any regulation.
You have the freedom and opportunity to choose who you do business with.You can find a supplier who will allow you to return a shipment you are dissatisfied with.
The brass supplier cannot maintain traceability on fired brass.How in the world would that be possible?It is not.
You are asking for Utopia,I can assure you,there is no liberty in Utopia.
The only way we will have the freedom to buy used brass is if we maintain caveat emptor.As soon as the brass dealer is defined as responsible for the quality of the brass,there will be no used brass.Too much exposure to litigation."My lawyer and I want 2 million dollars because my handload blew my face up so it must be the brass you sold me"
I am sure we could have a Federal Beaureau of Brass Management.
It was only a few months ago we were all PO'd because the military and ATK were doing some de-milling of brass.Now,is there any wonder why?
It only takes one person who thinks like this to send the right E-mail.
Here is one clue,if it still has crimped primers,its once fired.
It may be stretched junk,but it is once fired.