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Hardcase
July 30, 2010, 10:33 AM
Emotions are still running a little hot, I see!

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/30/new-mexico-governor-considers-pardon-billy-kid/

davem
July 30, 2010, 12:15 PM
I wonder what the reason or grounds for the pardon are? :rolleyes:

Tom2
July 30, 2010, 05:53 PM
Well in a hundred years they might pardon Manson. :rolleyes:

MJN77
July 30, 2010, 06:38 PM
Billy the Kid wasn't Manson. Not even close.

ScottRiqui
July 30, 2010, 07:21 PM
Billy the Kid wasn't Manson. Not even close.

Good point - Billy the Kid actually murdered someone.

Edward429451
July 30, 2010, 07:55 PM
Follow the money. Someone down there knows that thier tourism plans will be more successful if they can advertise "Billy Pardoned" and market it for bucks. They got the Governor in on it lol, there's some money involved.

bedbugbilly
July 30, 2010, 08:08 PM
As someone who owns a house south of Tucson, AZ and who lives there six months during the winter, I am fully away of the "Illegal" problem, I find it amazing that the Governor of NM has the time to "waste" on this nonsense when there are far more important issues to address in regards to state unemployment, poor economy, border prob lems, etc. Bear in mind that the "border problem" is not unique to Arizona . . . it exists all the way from Texas to California. At least our Governor out there had the balls to get a state law passed to help address the problem - something which the clowns in Washington, DC WILL NOT DO - and then they "gut" it. Perhaps if the Governor of NM spent more time, along with the Governor of Texas, and all passed similar laws, Washington would get off their ass and do something. I am all for those coming into this country LEGALLY . . . . I am sick and tired of paying for welfare, health care, education, etc. for those that don;t. Now this clown in NM wants to pardon Billy The Kid? I wonder if BP is putting pressure on him to do it like their alleged pressure on GB to release the Lockabee Bomber? :D Billy The Kid was a cold blooded killer and Garrett did everybody a favor. If the Governor of NM has all this time to devote to this nonsense, I invite him to come to AZ and he can help pick up the literally thousands of backpacks, water bottles, dirtyt diapers and other assorted garbage that the illegals leave laying around the beautiful Sonora Desert - better yet - maybe we should gather the backpacks, water bottles, dirty diapers and garbage and ship them off to Washington, DC and deposit them on the White House lawn.

Sorry for digressing on this subject - stupid politicians just really **** me off! :D What's next . . . . pardons for any convicted perp who kills a law office? Give me a break . . . . . . .

Double Naught Spy
July 30, 2010, 08:18 PM
Good point - Billy the Kid actually murdered someone.

At least four solely and was one of several gunmen to kill 5 more (which could count as being charged for murder today), then a couple possibles.

He rustled cattle, a big deal at the time, committed armed robbery, had multiple jail escapes, and several other lessor crimes. He wasn't a good person.

MJN77
July 30, 2010, 08:28 PM
He was also not any worse than most other people of the time and place. One of the jail guards Billy "murdered" was himself a known murderer. The point is, while I don't think he should be pardoned Billy the Kid was not even the most wanted man in New Mexico at the time. He was #11 on the governer's wanted list. Bob Olinger the afore mentioned jail guard, was a known cattle rustler and murderer. This is historical fact. Billy the Kid was an arrogent punk that got involved in one of the many range wars of the time, did some bad things like everyone else involved in the "war", then when it was over he drifted into open outlawry and continued to thumb his nose at the law. Then he died. Pretty much sums it up.

Model-P
July 30, 2010, 09:02 PM
I find it amazing that the Governor of NM has the time to "waste" on this nonsense

That's it in a nutshell.

rtpzwms
July 30, 2010, 09:55 PM
From bedbugbilly and Model-PQuote:
I find it amazing that the Governor of NM has the time to "waste" on this nonsense
That's it in a nutshell.

I can't believe I wasted my time on it!:barf:

Jimmy10mm
July 30, 2010, 10:11 PM
FWIW, there is also some question as to whether Pat Garret killed Billy at all. There was litigation going on to have the corpse purported to be that of William Bonney exhumed along with that of his mother and DNA testing to be done. The theory being that Garret let the kid escape and there is another fellow in the grave. Here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6092904/) is an MSNBC report stating that the claimants were dropping the case.

TXGunNut
July 31, 2010, 11:51 AM
Maybe the tourism folks could put pressure on Texas Gov. Perry to pardon Sam Bass or even Bonnie & Clyde. It's a election year, can't rule it out.
Follow the money, indeed.

MJN77
July 31, 2010, 12:13 PM
Richardson has been trying to do this "pardon Billy the Kid" crap since 2004 at least. Idiot! (Richardson)

arcticap
July 31, 2010, 04:31 PM
Despite this pardon issue, the NRA endorsed Richardson as the pro-gun Democrat Presidential candidate.
I remember watching him speak out on Meet The Press about how being pro-gun was an important issue for him because they're part of the culture of the American West. He did hold his ground on gun rights which was admirable.

highvel
July 31, 2010, 08:29 PM
Just another place to throw tax payers money, the Government needs to spend,spend,spend they cant stand it.
Does anyone know a viable reason for a pardon for a murderer????? Murder is murder right? Or, a I'm sorry but my Great Grandfather was a murderer but I think if he was alive today he would be sorry, he deserves to be pardoned????

I dont get it!

Jimmy10mm
July 31, 2010, 09:19 PM
I remember as a kid (50 years ago) reading that Billy the Kid killed 21 men, not counting Indians and Mexicans. Not much PC back in those days. Anyhow, here (http://www.aboutbillythekid.com/fact_vs_myth.htm)is a page I just read on Billy, fact versus myth for anyone interested. Good read.

Gator Weiss
July 31, 2010, 11:06 PM
There is not enough fact at hand to make a pardon for Billy the Kid.

I was a little bit surprised at the comment about Charles Manson from one of the other posters.

Manson organized the murders and sent people out to commit murder. That is illegal.

In one set of murders, Manson actually came to the scene, participated in tying up two victims, and then ordered their deaths as he left the scene. His associates then carried out the murders. Manson took a wallet and a credit card from the scene and dumped it in a black neighborhood to try to spark a race riot. He wanted people to think black people committed the murder of whites. This is not the Sharon Tate murders. This is a different set of murders.

There is an old saying; "as long as they make coffee, Manson will remain in prison and not be paroled." This saying is based on one of the victims in the Sharon Tate residence, and that would be a murdered woman named Emiline Folger - heiress to the Folger's Coffee foundation.

Dont ever come off with this crap that Manson is a victim. Manson is a murderer many times over. His participation and role in the crimes directly resulted in the commission of multiple murders intended to spark race wars. The evidence was presented in the people's court. A jury ruled on it. It was confirmed on appeal. His associates confessed and told of his role as well. There is no reason to let such a man loose from prison and he was originally condemned to death. He was only saved by California's liberal stench of ruling the death penalty cruel and unusual punishment. His sentence was then commuted to life.

ScottRiqui
July 31, 2010, 11:15 PM
I was a little bit surprised at the comment about Charles Manson from one of the other posters. (...) Dont ever come off with this crap that Manson is a victim. Manson is a murderer many times over.

I think you're referring to my post. I'm no Manson apologist - I'm glad that he's going to be in prison until he dies.

My post was more of a tongue-in-cheek commentary on the earlier poster who said that BTK was "not even close" to Manson. I was just pointing out that his statement could easily be read either way (and be true either way.)

Hawg Haggen
August 1, 2010, 02:59 PM
I doubt they'd even find the grave. I'm thinking I heard the marker had even been stolen once and they were never sure it was replaced in the proper location. Besides it took most of Jesse James teeth to get enough dna to even test and he had a proper burial. Times were different then. Who's to say what anybody else would have done given the times and circumstances. You can't judge a man who's been dead 130 years by todays standards. Billy from most indications never saw his 21st birthday. Does he deserve a pardon? Maybe, maybe not. I doubt there will ever be enough concrete facts come to light to make that decision. IMHO Billy wasn't a bad man. Most if not all the people he killed were in self defense. Bob Olinger was killed during a jail break to escape being hung. How many of you would kill a man today to escape being hung if you had the chance? Or would you just go to the gallows peacefully?

RJay
August 1, 2010, 04:29 PM
Any way you slice or dice it, Billy the Kid was a psychotic killer, he was not just a misunderstood kid from a rough neighborhood. It is highly doubtful he killed 21 men, that's Hollywood and the dime novels but the fact remains he did murder several men in cold blood. He was also a horse thief, cattle rustler and petty thief. To pardon him for the tourist trade would be a grave miscarriage of justice, even at this late date. Just my opinion and I have others:)

arcticap
August 1, 2010, 05:23 PM
I thought the possible pardon is only about murdering the deputies, not about every crime he ever committed.

How many of you would kill a man today to escape being hung if you had the chance? Or would you just go to the gallows peacefully?


I think that I would carve a pistol out of a bar of soap and cover it with shoe polish and use it to take a prison guard hostage and then bust out of jail!
Does that scenario ring a bell? :D

Hawg Haggen
August 1, 2010, 05:41 PM
Dillingers was wood was it not?

arcticap
August 1, 2010, 05:41 PM
I thought that in the movie the gun was a bar of soap. :rolleyes:

I did check and you're right, it was a fake wooden gun. But it wasn't his first escape conspiracy and some guards were killed that first time. That first chapter of his first escape plan is described last:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dillinger

The police boasted to area newspapers that the jail was escape-proof and posted extra guards to make sure. Louis Piquett, John Dillinger's attorney, was able to sneak a wooden gun within the prison and into the hands of Dillinger. Using it, he was able to trick a guard into opening his cell. He then took two men hostage, rounded up all the guards in the jail, locked them in his cell, and fled. Before leaving, Dillinger said to the guards he locked up, "See what I locked all of you monkeys up with? Nothing but a little piece of wood. Well, so long, boys. I'll have to be moving on."[30] Dillinger stole Sheriff Lillian Holley's new Ford car, embarrassing her and the town, and traveled to Chicago.

About the earlier escape:

Tracked by police from Dayton, Ohio, he was captured and jailed in Lima. After searching him before letting him into the prison, the police discovered a document which appeared to be a prison escape plan. They demanded Dillinger tell them what the document meant, but he refused.[5]

Dillinger had helped conceive a plan for the escape of Pierpont, Clark and six others he had met while previously in prison, most of whom worked in the prison laundry. Dillinger had friends smuggle rifles into their prison cells which they used to escape, killing two guards, four days after Dillinger's capture. The group known as the "first Dillinger gang" included Pierpont, Clark, Charles Makley, Edward W. Shouse, Jr. of Terre Haute, Harry Copeland, James "Oklahoma Jack" Clark, Walter Dietrich and John "Red" Hamilton. Three of the escapees arrived in Lima on October 12, where they impersonated Indiana State Police officers, claiming they had come to extradite Dillinger to Indiana. When the sheriff asked for their credentials, they shot him and beat him unconscious, then released Dillinger from his cell. The four men escaped back into Indiana where they joined the rest of the gang.[5]

Hawg Haggen
August 1, 2010, 05:53 PM
Any way you slice or dice it, Billy the Kid was a psychotic killer, he was not just a misunderstood kid from a rough neighborhood. It is highly doubtful he killed 21 men, that's Hollywood and the dime novels but the fact remains he did murder several men in cold blood

Billy killed four men on his own. Two in self defense and the two officers he killed to escape hanging. He was credited with some he had no part in.
He was involved in the deaths of five other men but he wasn't the only one shooting so you can't credit him with those either. Accessory yes. To call him a psychotic killer requires a very vivid imagination.

crghss
August 1, 2010, 08:12 PM
How many of you would kill a man today to escape being hung

So if I go to jail I'm allowed to kill a person to escape?

MJN77
August 1, 2010, 09:02 PM
There's more to it than that. The Lincoln County War was a war between two mercantile owners for military beef contracts. The Dolan side decided they wanted the contracts more so they killed John Tunstall. Well the Tunstall side couldn't go to the law because the "LAW" was very close friends with Jimmy Dolan. In fact the men that murdered Tunstall were deputy sheriffs. The county judge was also friends with Dolan. The county judge was also the territorial judge. The territorial judge was the one that sentenced Billy the Kid to hang. One of the jail guards (Bob Olinger) was a gunman on the Dolan side in the "war". Olinger was also a known murderer and thief in his own right. Billy was also the ONLY person on either side in the war to be hunted down, tried and sentenced to anything. The only crime Billy was ever charged with was killing the sheriff! Billy was one of 6 or 7 men that did the shooting. Did I mention that the sheriff was in with the Dolan side? Now, does it sound like the Kid got a fair shake in the whole thing? And Hawg is right, Billy only killed four men. "Windy" Cahill in AZ was shot while beating on the Kid. ( Cahill was 6ft tall and about 240 according to witnesses, the Kid was 5ft 8 or 9 and about 125) Cahill's own deathbed testimony said he attacked the kid. Joe Grant was a Texas "badman" lookin to kill someone in Bob Hargrove's saloon. Tried to shoot the Kid in the back and died shortly after. The 2 jail guards. Olinger taunted Billy, marked the days off till Billy's hanging on a calender outside the Kid's cell. Even Pat Garrett said Olinger was a bully. Pat even called Olinger his "killer deputy". The other guard, Jim Bell was kind to Billy. After the escape Billy told John Medows ( A friend ) that he did not intend to shoot Bell, but as he ran Billy had no choice. Like I said look at the facts, do some reading on your own then make a judgment.

Hardcase
August 1, 2010, 09:47 PM
I think that it's safe to say that nobody involved in the business in New Mexico had clean hands and some were dirtier than others. There's legend and there's fact and there's tourist's to be shaken down. Me, I can't really muster the energy to pick a side, so I guess I'm for the status quo.

I have to say that back in 1870s and 1880s, territorial law and law enforcement could be very screwed up, and not just in New Mexico. My great great grandparents arrived in Idaho around that time and, although I don't think they would have called it "lawless", there were certainly different factions that had different ideas about how the territory ought to be run.

MJN77
August 1, 2010, 11:11 PM
I agree. I don't think the Kid should be pardoned for a couple of reasons. First, Billy was promised a pardon by Lew Wallace for testimony in court about a murder. Billy testified as promised. Gov Wallace however did not live up to his part of the deal. Billy then drifted into open lawlessness. He could've left New Mexico and noone would've bothered to look for him. But he stayed there and was hunted down and killed. The "law" had it in for him. He was not a psyco killer, but he was no angel either.
The second reason is it would be a killer for the tourist trade. People go to NM to see the haunts of the "outlaw" Billy the Kid.

davem
August 2, 2010, 12:57 AM
Well, just to put things in proper perspective, it seems to me that our young Billy was sort of a scum of the earth character. The fact that other similar folks were around at the time doesn't make Billy any less culpable. Also, on the number of murders, one ought to be enough to have a neck tie party or so it seems to me. On the pardon aspect, I always thought the pardon was for a conviction not fugitives from justice. I'm not sure if our Billy ever went through a trial and was actually convicted of anything.
This conviction aspect- remember when Clinton (another Billy) pardoned that guy who was a fugitive from justice. I think his name was Vick? I can't remember. In any event we have a law library near where I live so I checked out some old Supreme Court decisions on this "Pardon" business because the news media was saying a pardon was an "unlimited power without restriction" and I thought that didn't sound right-the old founding fathers didn't seem to like unlimited powers without restrictions.
IN ANY EVENT, the OLD time view of the Supremes was that the pardon ONLY applied to a conviction, the conviction could be overturned or the sentence reduced. The idea was that if the pardon power applied before a conviction -such a power would undermine the separation of powers, namely the judicial branch of government. In other words the trial had to take place, all the facts had to come out, a conviction had to be rendered, and then a pardon could apply. I think I remember there was some talk that if a pardon could apply before the trial process, it could serve as a shield or obstruct justice.
In any event you have to read the old decisions, any law professor these days would just cite the current "unlimited power" argument.:rolleyes:

Baryngyl
August 2, 2010, 01:38 AM
Is a pardon going to do anyone any good?
Is Billy still alive and facing death, so a pardon will help him? NO
Is a pardon going to benefit any of his relatives (Allow his children to get some benefit that is now being denied them because of his conviction)? I do not know for sure but I think the answer is NO.
Is there any real benefit in a pardon? Not that I can see.


Michael Grace

MJN77
August 2, 2010, 10:08 AM
"Well, just to put things in proper perspective, it seems to me that our young Billy was sort of a scum of the earth character"

Have you done any research on him?

"The fact that other similar folks were around at the time doesn't make Billy any less culpable. "

Easy to judge from a modern point of view. Different time and place.

"Also, on the number of murders, one ought to be enough to have a neck tie party or so it seems to me."

Pretty loose definition of murder there, sport. When a group of gunmen, wearing the cloak of legality and who have the territorial and county judge, not to mention powerful politicians on their side try to kill you and your friends, what exactly would you do? Would you just except the fact that you don't have long to live, or would you shoot back? If you did, is that "murder"?
Research the subject before passing judgment.

ClemBert
August 2, 2010, 12:23 PM
P*ss on his grave.

arcticap
August 2, 2010, 01:29 PM
First, Billy was promised a pardon by Lew Wallace for testimony in court about a murder. Billy testified as promised. Gov Wallace however did not live up to his part of the deal.

If Billy had received a pardon as promised maybe his life would have been different. He wanted to stay and the Governor wanted him out, so then maybe he had no chioce but to turn lawless if he wanted to stay.

It would seem that a deal is deal is deal. And since Gov. Richardson is a fair man, if he pardons him then so be it. You will all know the reason why, that some previous Governor renegged on a deal that ended up costing someone their life.
I hope that the profit motive doesn't enter into the picture, about if a pardon is issued then tourist money will be lost.
I don't care either way, but I'm not going to criticize Gov. Richardson for honoring a deal that should have been honored from the beginning. No one forced then Gov. Wallace to make the deal. Unless Billy's testimoney can be proven to have been tainted or dishonest, then he is entitled to his pardon for doing so.
Then everyone will know the real reason for him being granted a pardon and why he was hunted down without it. Just because he chose to stay where he belonged and felt that he had earned that right to stay by testifying.

I think that Governor Richardson should do whatever he can to justify honoring the deal. Because breaking that deal just may have cost Billy his life in the name of the law, and a lawless New Mexican government whose head didn't want to honor it's agreement. All because of the broken word of a Governor. Billy paid with his life. If the Governor made a rotten deal, then that's his fault for upholding a corrupt system that was no better than Billy. A deal is a deal. :rolleyes:

pohill
August 2, 2010, 02:03 PM
While we're making everything right, let's give the Black Hills back to the Sioux. Now that's something I could get behind.

noelf2
August 2, 2010, 02:30 PM
let's give the Black Hills back to the Sioux.

Why? That's just crazy horse talk! ;)

If Billy was innocent, guilty, or a mixture of both, he's still a legend of the American west. He's dead, leave him alone. Anyway, I don't see kids playing cowboys and Indians anymore. The old legends and heros are fading away for new digital ones, like "Leeroy Jenkins". Shame.

davem
August 2, 2010, 08:00 PM
Actually I was thinking about most of the outlaws of the time, not Billy in particular. Sorry if I got him misjudged.
Sources; Bob Scott, stage driver for Wells Fargo 1880's
Daniel Leitch, early settler and Sioux Indian fighter
and Dick Wotten, Colorado.

All said the outlaw class were the scum of the earth. Since they were there I sort of took them at their word.

Hawg Haggen
August 2, 2010, 08:19 PM
So if I go to jail I'm allowed to kill a person to escape?

That's not what I said. I asked would you kill to avoid being hung.

MJN77
August 2, 2010, 09:19 PM
"Since they were there I sort of took them at their word"

That's not always the best thing to do. Pat Garrett and his two deputies that were there have two different versions of the shooting. Pat and John Poe, have the same story except in Poe's version he was the one that talked Garrett into going to Ft. Sumner that night. Tom (Kip) McKinney (the other deputy) said Garret set an ambush and shot the Kid with a shotgun. Poe and Garrett had higher goals in life. Both went on to be "upstanding citizens" while McKinney went on to be a miner and rancher. A cook that worked for the owner of the house that the Kid died in, had a completly different story. Not to mention all the other stories that came from people that were nowhere near the shooting. Garrett had first hand knowledge of what happened but most historians don't think he was very truthful about it.

Purvis1
August 2, 2010, 09:59 PM
Sounds like text book Invincibility Fable. Teenage egocentrism + violent environment = violent kid. It's still going on today. Even though crime is going down, statistically, violent crime is being committed by younger perps. Robberies committed by this age group are much more likely to end in homocide. There is a positive correlation between emotional regulation and the development of the prefrontal cortex (which usually finishes developing around 25 and can take as long as 27 years).

noelf2
August 3, 2010, 07:57 AM
Don't know about all that fancy talk, but I think you mean that kids are a PITA, and Billy was no exception..?? I agree !!! ;)

Retired15T
August 3, 2010, 08:14 AM
Just because there were other people doing the same thing Billy The Kid was doing doesn't make him any less guilty. Either through direct, hands on murder or indirect, he ordered his gang to kill, he wasn't a nice guy at all. He got his justice while the others who were pretending to be the law didn't.

If anything, charges should be entered into public record against those "law men" who were known murderers themselves. But to pardon The Kid, there's gotta be a lotta money involved for a Gov to even worry about stupid crap like this.

MJN77
August 3, 2010, 02:09 PM
Man, where do you get this stuff? Billy wasn't the leader of any gang. I said earlier that he shouldn't be pardoned because of the stuff he did, but at least read about the man before you make a judgment. It's easy to judge things from a modern point of view. In this day and age when a police officer or judge is guilty of misconduct there are usually steps you can take to correct the problem. In 1878 when a lawman or judge was corrupt, and against you, you usually came down with a bad case of dead. Unless you shot back. The Kid was not blameless, or a "hero" but he wasn't a psyco killer of women and children either. His type was very common on the frontier. The type that went by the "code of the west" as it were. ( I'll die before I'll run ) Look at Wyatt Earp and the " OK corral" shootout. Neither side was going to back down, so there was a fight. Wyatt was as crooked as the men he shot. Like I said, read a book instead of getting your info from hollywood westerns.

Purvis1
August 3, 2010, 02:35 PM
"Don't know about all that fancy talk, but I think you mean that kids are a PITA, and Billy was no exception..?? I agree !!!"

Sorry about that. Went back to school last year and the old gray matter has'nt quite hit the rinse cycle, yet. Kids can be a pain. I remember doing plenty of stuff that should've gotten me killed. Luck of the draw.

pohill
August 3, 2010, 03:02 PM
His type was very common on the frontier.

Why, then, is he remembered over the rest?

MJN77
August 3, 2010, 03:21 PM
"Why, then, is he remembered over the rest?"

The only reason Billy the Kid is remembered at all is because of his escape. When he killed both his jailers and rode out of Lincoln New Mexico on April 28, 1881 he became a legend. One that had no resemblence to the real Kid. Before that, no one new who he was. He was just another two bit petty thief and cattle rustler. But that jail break was the stuff the dime novels were written about. That is why the Kid is remembered at all. As far as "remembered over the rest", he isn't. He's remembered along WITH the rest. Wyatt Earp, Doc Hilliday, "Wild Bill" Hickok, Clay Allison, John Wesley Hardin, Sam Bass, Ben Thompson, Jesse James, Cole Younger, The Daltons, Bass Reeves, hell I could go on all day. All these people were of the same cloth. Some were blatent criminals, some were not so open about their criminal activities and some were upstanding citizens, but ALL of them ( Billy included ) would fight before they would run. All of them killed other men in armed confrontations at one time or another for whatever reason, weather those reasons were pure or not. At one time or another, when givin the option to run or fight, they ALL fought.

aarondhgraham
August 3, 2010, 04:24 PM
<Cynicism>

This is just another politician trying to get his name in the papers,,,
It serves no other purpose except maybe New Mexico tourism.

I'm all for New Mexico tourism by the way,,,
Beautiful late evening drive.

</Cynicism>

.

arcticap
August 3, 2010, 05:40 PM
In 1878 when a lawman or judge was corrupt, and against you, you usually came down with a bad case of dead. Unless you shot back. The Kid was not blameless, or a "hero" but he wasn't a psyco killer of women and children either. His type was very common on the frontier. The type that went by the "code of the west" as it were.

To this very day the government makes deals with some of the worst criminal types in exchange for their cooperation. Folks that no one would want to see getting off scott free but they do. And to top it off they're given new identities and a place to live and income. And that can include their family members too.

Once the deal to protect someone is struck then the government can't simply back out afterward. That's bargaining in bad faith and shows just how corrupt a system can be.

Billy received the justice for his crime so now he has more than earned his pardon as promised. It's about the authorities keeping their word which is suppose to be more important than whether a criminal goes free or not.

Retired15T
August 4, 2010, 03:12 AM
MJN77,

I'm no expert on the Wild West as I suspect you aren't either. I have "read about the man" and "Where I got this stuff" is in the following link.

Billy did have a gang at one point. Read the Wikipedia article on him here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_the_Kid). The Kid wasn't the normally known "Gang Leader" of the time, but there was a time when he had a gang of men with him that followed his directions.

McCarty started his adult life as a common criminal. He escaped jail after having been found in possession of stolen clothes and firearms. He never served his sentence for that crime. It wasn't much longer before he became a murderer.

Now, why in the world you feel the need to make comments like, "Where do you get this stuff from?" and "Read about the man before making a judgment" is beyond me. From what I've read of the man, he was affable when it suited his needs and deadly when his needs weren't met.

Also, I never said Billy The Kid was a psycho. But to kill ANYONE while breaking the law and going against common precepts such as, "Don't steal another man's stuff and you won't be called a thief" is a pretty good indicator of having a mental issue or ten. Today's foster parents are worth a damn, by and large, but just like today, The Kid found himself in a horrible home situation with his foster parents. I won't go into my childhood here, but I will say this. It was HORRIFIC. I've never stolen anything, never taken a job that required me to break the law and never killed anyone who didn't really deserve it.

In other words, I've never killed a man who wasn't trying to kill me. And since I was in the Army when that happened and deployed overseas, and the few guys I have killed were either shooting at my helicopter, me or my army buddies, I don't need a pardon for it.

It's obvious you've some love of the old west and the frontier. But don't bring your offensive and condescending attitude into a conversation like this. Just no reason for it.

MJN77
August 4, 2010, 10:14 AM
First off, I have actually been a student of the "old west" and specifically Billy the Kid for over 20 years. I may not be an expert, but I bet I have researched the subject more than you have.
Second, believing ANYTHING on wikipedia is like believing what you read in the enquierer. They are known for posting BS. Hell, they even list his B-day when every serious historian knows that was made up by Ash Upson when he co-wrote Pat Garret's book. No one really knows when Billy was born or if he was even 21 when he was shot.
Third, no Billy did NOT have a "gang". He rustled cattle with a few "buddies". Men like Dave Rudabaugh would have shot anybody that even acted like that were trying to give him orders, and Charlie Bowdre was at least 10 years older than the kid and went through the Lincoln County War right along with the Kid (Charlie is the man that killed "Buckshot" Roberts ) so I don't think he would have felt the need to look to the Kid for guidence.
It's easy to sit in your chair at the computer and judge what happened 120 years ago with a modern mind set. It was a different place and time. The law was corrupt and had no problem killing those that were in their way. You should know, when people try to kill you you shoot back. That's what the "war" was about. The only killing he did when breaking the law was his jailers, one of which was a gunman and known murderer on "the other side" in the "war". If you want to read about what the Kid was actually like, go here for a start. http://www.aboutbillythekid.com/
A good book is Billy The Kid: a short and violent life by Robert M. Utley.
I stand by my statement "where do you get this stuff" If Wikipedia is your source you have been misinformed.

MJN77
August 4, 2010, 10:40 AM
Retired15T,
I am not trying to be an a$$, but I do like the debate. I have said in my previous posts, Billy was no saint and he should not be pardoned, but you can't fairly judge someone until you know what really happened in their lifetime and what their day and age were like. In NM in the 1870's, cattle rustling was looked at as "sport" and "no big deal" unless you were caught or you were the one that had your stock stolen. Jimmy Dolan, the leader of the "opposing side" operated in stolen cattle and sold them to the army. The army didn't even care where they came from. The point is, Billy was the ONLY one that fought in the Lincoln War, on either side that was tried for anything, and believe me out of dozens of killers on both sides the Kid doesn't even come close to the worst. The lawmen that hunted him, the prosecutor that tried him, the judge that sentenced him, the jailer that guarded him were all connected with the Dolan side, and Dolan was friends with a lot of powerful politicians in Santa Fe. That kinda sounds like a biased crowd to me. The 2 killings that Billy commited on his own before his jail break were self defence. The killings that he helped with during the "war" were just that, acts of war. Both sides were killing each other. Neither side was more "right" than the other, but when a group of people are trying to kill your group, you would tend to shoot back. Again, Billy was no saint, but he wasn't the "demon" that people paint him as. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, that was not my intention. But you can't believe everything you read on the internet, and a few paragraphs on Wikipedia isn't exactly the best place to get your facts from.

crghss
August 5, 2010, 05:10 PM
Second, believing ANYTHING on wikipedia is like believing what you read in the enquierer

Actually not true. In this instance there are numerous references of sources, reputable sources. So while somethings are posted to Wikipedia without references, it's noted when there aren't enough references, it can be a good source of information.

So while I wouldn't and don't rely solely on wikipedia for information if the postings are referenced properly it is a good source.

MJN77
August 5, 2010, 05:27 PM
Depends on the source referenced. The article relies heavily on the legend of Billy and not really on known facts. Although, I will say it's not as bad as it could be. But it still has problems.

andrewstorm
August 8, 2010, 04:41 PM
Legendary William Bonny,was already pardoned by one lying politician,hed probably roll over in his grave at the thought of another one doing it officially now

bedbugbilly
August 9, 2010, 01:29 PM
pohill - love your thoughts on the Souix and the Black Hills . . . while all the politicians are doing these good deeds of pardoning, etc. . . . . let's have 'em do away with "Columbus Day" as well . . . . . for some reason, I never did buy the story that he discovered America . . . . or would these thoughts make me "politically incorrect"? I sure as hell wouldn't want that . . . . :D

Rampant_Colt
August 9, 2010, 02:02 PM
Just another criminal glamorized by dime store novels and cheesy movies.. Hell, he was the "Left-Handed Gun" for many years before anyone figured out that the famous photo image of him was reversed.

Pardon him now? Sarcastic slow clap for a brilliant media stunt :rolleyes:

HisSoldier
August 9, 2010, 07:53 PM
As someone who owns a house south of Tucson, AZ and who lives there six months during the winter, I am fully away of the "Illegal" problem,

Your comments are interesting. I live on the Oregon coast, we are surrounded with Illegals. My friend lives near Somerton, west of Yuma, he's told me many stories.
I say let's vacation Mr. Obama to the area without body guards, maybe he would change his mind if he survived. There are truly two types of people in America today, those of us who get it, and a majority who don't, but hold the reigns of power.