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Hardcase
July 29, 2010, 03:20 PM
I've got an old Lyman Navy Remington, I think it's an Uberti, but maybe an ASP, from the '70s that's out of time. When I cock the hammer, I can see that the bolt is popping up too soon - actually, quite a bit too soon. Everything else is fine and the gun is perfectly shootable, but four clicks seems like one too many.

How do I adjust the timing so that the bolt engages the cylinder stops at the right time?

denster
July 29, 2010, 04:31 PM
How much too soon is it dropping. It should be dropping just before the leading edge of the bolt arrives at the cylinder notch. Much more than that and it's time to fit a new bolt.

CajunPowder
July 29, 2010, 04:41 PM
This is a topic of great interest to me as I have been mail ordering remmies and going to Cabelas to shop these revolvers. ALL of the NIB revolvers I have come across are timed such that the bolt falls DIRECTLY on the leading edge of the cylinder notch.

All of us know that the metal the bolt is made out of, especially its surface is much, much harder than the metal the cylinder is made from.

We know that if the bolt falls directly on the EDGES of the cylinder notches it peens the notch EDGES, (smashes them), and that peened EDGE metal then fills in the cylinder notch and will eventually lead to a condition where the bolt will not want to fall into the cylinder notch as readily, (skip the notch and overturn, or not lock-up in firing position causing chamber-forcing cone poor alignment) ... and IF the notch is properly shaped and fills the cylinder notch as fully as possible, it's going to cause problems, (this notch EDGE peening).

All of us will agree on two facts about the timing of these remmies:

1. There is a distinctive "click" heard when the hammer engages the "half-cock" position.

2. There is a distinctive "click" when the hammer engages "full-cock" position.

3. If you don't hear both of these distinctive "clicks" referenced in #1 and #2 your revolver has some serious timing or action issues.

Now I want to address the sound(s) the bolt makes when it "falls" upon the cylinder, and when it "falls" into the cylinder notch. And I think a discussion about these two "physical" realities are essential to this thread overall.

In my experience, when the bolt falls on the cylinder there is certainly a sound, like a "click", but not as loud ... almost like a "tick" of an old grandfather clock. Also, I hear the bolt then "fall" into the cylinder notch and make another "click OR tick".

That's four sounds.

It is a physical impossibility for the "tick" of the bolt falling ONTO the cylinder, (not into the notch), and the "tick" of the bolt falling INTO the "cylinder notch" to be the same sound. Unless the bolt falls DIRECTLY and PERFECTLY into the notch. In which case I would say you have a "Magic Remmie" and for you to hold on to that ... for dear life. :D

These two "ticks" caused by the bolt can CERTAINLY be close enough so that they SOUND like the same thing. I have cocked Remmies where the two "ticks" of the bolt are so close to the full-cock position that all three sounds appear to the naked ear to be the same loud "CLICK". And those revolvers had cylinder notch edges that peened rapidly, (within less than 20 full cockings of the hammer).

One of the revolvers I got through mail order I recorded with a nice microphone, ($149.00, 20-20), and my decent digital-computer USB recording outboard gear. Even though I could not discern between the two bolt "ticks", (when I slowed the recording down), I could hear them, AND most importantly I could SEE them in the WAV form onscreen. These two "ticks" look very different onscreen from the two "CLICKS" of half-cock and full-cock.

So the physics of this matter demand 4 sounds. (Unless you have a magic Remmie). And HEY, I WANT a Magic Remmie !:cool:

My research shows that respected gunsmiths concur that the original design of the Remmie revolver indicates that the bolt should fall ONTO the cylinder approximately 3/8" to 1/8" BEFORE the leading edge of the cylinder notch. As these Remmie have no "Lead-in" relief on the cylinder, the timing being set so that the bolt falls BEFORE the leading edge of the cylinder notch comes into contact with the falling bolt is essential and per the design of this revolver.

I really think this thread needs to flesh this issue out completely.

Let us make this thread a significant effort to LEARN how to TIME a Remmie per the OP's wishes.

I'm going to be the bolt monster under the bed. :D

Model-P
July 29, 2010, 04:44 PM
How are you getting four clicks out of a Remington model?
When you say "popping up", do you mean the bolt hitting the cylinder, or clicking into the notch?

The bolt should contact the cylinder at least about one full bolt width. In other words, the back edge of the bolt should not overhang the leading edge of the notch when it drops to the cylinder.

If you are getting four clicks, your bolt is probably snapping into the notch either just before or just after the sear clicks into full cock- probably after. This is not good as the gun could be fired with the cylinder out of battery. The cylinder will slap into battery as the bullet transitions from the cylinder throat into the forcing cone, but that is not good on the various parts of the gun's mechanism.

-----

There should be three clicks:

1) sear engaging half cock notch
2) bolt dropping to surface of cylinder
3a) bolt dropping into notch
3b) sear dropping into full cock notch

3a. and 3b. should be simultaneous in a properly timed revolver.

CajunPowder
July 29, 2010, 04:51 PM
back edge of the bolt should not overhang the leading edge of the notch when it drops to the cylinder.

Excellent visual description !

And I'm thinking that neither the back edge of the bolt, NOR the leading edge of the bolt should overhang the leading edge of the cylinder notch as it makes first contact with the cylinder, when it first "falls" towards the cylinder after half-cock.

Now ... I really want to learn how to adjust the bolt that IS falling onto the leading edge of the cylinder notch, so that it falls BEFORE the leading edge of the cylinder notch. I wanna learn that ! :D

CajunPowder
July 29, 2010, 04:55 PM
3a. and 3b. should be simultaneous in a properly timed revolver.

Do they sell 3a. and 3b. in nicely labeled bottles because I WANT some of that magic !

Again, Model-P you are getting things off to a VERY nice start with your descriptions.

So now I'm sold on the possibility of a "naked ear", 3-click Remmie ! And I want that !

Hardcase
July 29, 2010, 05:21 PM
If you are getting four clicks, your bolt is probably snapping into the notch either just before or just after the sear clicks into full cock- probably after. This is not good as the gun could be fired with the cylinder out of battery. The cylinder will slap into battery as the bullet transitions from the cylinder throat into the forcing cone, but that is not good on the various parts of the gun's mechanism.

Yes, that is exactly what is happening - the bolt snapping into the notch is the last of the four steps that you described, and it's very distinctly last. The bolt is hitting the cylinder pretty doggone early. When I compare it to my .44 Pietta, the .44's bolt looks as if it goes straight into the cylinder stop without hitting the cylinder at all.

I'm going to do my level best to take some pictures of each click so that you can see what the bolt is doing. I'll do it this evening when I get home from work.

Model-P
July 29, 2010, 05:27 PM
Now ... I really want to learn how to adjust the bolt that IS falling onto the leading edge of the cylinder notch, so that it falls BEFORE the leading edge of the cylinder notch. I wanna learn that !

The bolt has two spring legs on the end opposite that of the bolt head itself. One of those legs rides up on the cam on the side of the hammer as it is cocked. If that leg is shortened, the leg will slip off the cam sooner and the bolt head will drop to the cylinder sooner. Just file the leg a little at a time, maintaining the angle that is on it to begin with, and test the action until the bolt drops where you want it to.

Do they sell 3a. and 3b. in nicely labeled bottles because I WANT some of that magic !

The timing of the bolt dropping into the notch is dependent on the rotation of the cylinder. If the cylinder is ahead of itself, the bolt will drop into the notch before the sear has a chance to engage full cock. If the cylinder is too far behind, the sear will engage full cock before the bolt drops into the notch.

The cylinder's rotation is dictated by the hand. Therefore, the hand is the critical component when timing that 3rd click (actually, 3a. and 3b.). If the hand is too long, the cylinder will be ahead of itself, and if too short, the cylinder will be behind. If the bolt is dropping into the notch before the sear engages, then the hand is too long and needs to be shortened. If the bolt is dropping into the notch after the sear engages, the hand is too short and should be replaced with one that can be fit to the proper length. When fiting hands, file just a very little at a time, maintaining the same angle, and test repeatedly until the two clicks merge into one. Don't mess with the trigger sear!

Model-P
July 29, 2010, 05:34 PM
Yes, that is exactly what is happening - the bolt snapping into the notch is the last of the four steps that you described, and it's very distinctly last.

Your hand is too short, and should be replaced. If the bolt clicks into the notch just barely a fraction before the sear engages, you'd probably be fine if you don't cock the gun too slowly. If the cylinder easily throws to bolt engagement when you cock it at normal speed, you're probably going to be fine. It seems that most of these BP repros come from the factory with this same problem, yet I never hear of it really being a serious problem. It's just that it is not really properly timed.

The bolt is hitting the cylinder pretty doggone early. When I compare it to my .44 Pietta, the .44's bolt looks as if it goes straight into the cylinder stop without hitting the cylinder at all.

The bolt should hit the cylinder just ahead of the notch (and NOT on the edge of the notch). It sounds like your Lyman is timed correctly, and your Piettas could stand adjustment as I described in the last post.

CajunPowder
July 29, 2010, 05:58 PM
Should a trigger job, (polishing or stoning of the trigger component surfaces), be done BEFORE addressing timing issues?

Will the removal of truly tiny amounts of metal from the trigger to reduce pull and make the trigger pull crisp, etc ... will that affect a revolver that has already been timed to "near" perfection. (I'm becoming a real advocate of avoiding perfection). :D

And a general question:

What other adjustments to a revolver, (like stoning or polishing the bolt surface), should be done BEFORE the timing is tweaked?

denster
July 29, 2010, 07:36 PM
Actually the bolt dropping right into the locking notch when it pops up is a very bad situation as that perfect timeing will not last for long and the bolt will start hitting the very edge of the notch which will peen it in really short order. At least when the bolt drops just over the edge of the notch is not as bad as the edge of the notch is not taking all of the force. The Remington design is a little different than the Colt in that the bolt in the Remington rises a bit before it looses the cam on the hammer so it isn't comming up under the full force of the bolt trigger spring like the Colt design. And it's easier to adjust by taking a little off the height of the bolt leg to maek it drop earlier.

denster
July 29, 2010, 07:42 PM
I've found the best way to do a trigger job on the Pietta Remingtons is to boost the hammer. That is done by putting your thumb between the hammer and frame at full cock and putting about ten pounds of pressure on the hammer with the other thumb while you pull the trigger. Do this about twenty times aand you will have a very smooth trigger pull. This burnishes the two surfaces together. One of the main problems with the Pietta Remingtons is the depth of engagement of the sear in the hammer which makes for a really long pull. I put a pin in the hammer in front of the full cock notch to limit the engagement. Both of the above give a really nice crisp trigger.

Model-P
July 29, 2010, 08:16 PM
If you are going to fit parts or otherwise time your action, you should eliminate as much slop as you might want to eliminate first. Then, rough adjust your timing, then set your trigger pull, then lastly fine tune your timing.

Denster, I have a Pietta 1860 and no drill bits were hard enough to even start into the face of the hammer to set a pin like you mentioned. I've been meaning to silver solder a shim at the full cock notch to achieve the same result. Mine has about a mile of trigger pull before release. Pretty shoddy of Pietta to make them so deep for no reason.

denster
July 29, 2010, 08:27 PM
Model-P

The easiest and cheapest way to go is to pick up a set of the carbide micro-drills at Harbor Freight. I think they are ten for $10. Only four of them are large enough to be useful but they are really useful. The way they are ground you don't even have to center drill the hole just start it gently and you would think you were drilling through butter.

denster
July 29, 2010, 08:29 PM
One good thing about Pietta is they at least got the hammer geometry right and you can have a light short pull without worrying about the sear banging into the half cock notch.

CajunPowder
July 29, 2010, 10:47 PM
Model-P and Denster:

Would you please further explain how full-cock can be adjusted, (shim OR pin), and most importantly WHY, (again please), it is important to timing and adjustment of timing, cuz I don't get it fully.:confused:

I need a more clear picture of "Boosting" the hammer please.

denster
July 30, 2010, 06:33 AM
Pinning or shimming the full cock notch is to limit sear engagement. For example Pietta's full cock notch is almost twice as deep as Uberti's and you can make it smooth but it will still be long. Putting a pin just below the full cock notch limits how far the sear can engage thereby shortening the pull.

Boosting the hammer. For a right hander hold the gun in your left hand at full cock. Put your left thumb between the hammer and the frame to keep the hammer from moving forward when the trigger is pulled. Then with your right thumb put about 10lbs of forward pressure on the hammer adding that force to the force of the mainspring and pull the trigger. The hammer just moves forward a little because your left thumb is stopping it. Bring it back to full cock and repeat. Do this 20 or 30 times then check the trigger pull and you will find it much smoother. The effect is to burnish the sear tip and full cock notch surface together from the extra force applied to the hammer. Some call this a poor man's trigger job but it works really well and not just on these pistols I do it on all pistols modern or reproduction.

Hardcase
July 30, 2010, 09:28 AM
Thanks for the enlightening advice fellas. I couldn't find my doggone memory card to take pictures of the bolt situation at each click, but I think that Model-P and Denster summed up the problem and solutions perfectly.

I did look a little closely at the gun and found the Armi San Paolo mark under the barrel. Will a Pietta or Uberti hand work for it? I have no problem doing some fitting - I have files and stones.

denster
July 30, 2010, 09:42 AM
I believe the Pietta hand is the one you want. They leave all of their hands long for fitting while Uberti tries to get it as close to drop in as possible which is sometimes not good.

Model-P
July 30, 2010, 03:06 PM
This is a good article. Unfortunately, the author does not address timing the bolt drop to reduce the peening of the slot edge, but we already covered that here;)

Tuning the Pietta Cap & Ball Pt.1
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_One.pdf

Tuning the Pietta Cap & Ball Pt.2
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_Two.pdf

denster
July 30, 2010, 03:32 PM
Those are good articles but you are right he did leave out some important things. He covered getting the arbor length correct but didn't cover correctly fitting the wedge. And he didn't mention how he got through the case hardening outside and inside the frame when he Rugarized the hand spring.

Model-P
July 30, 2010, 04:01 PM
Maybe he was working on an older Pietta. I've heard that until relatively recently they were pretty soft. The hammer on my new one is hard as glass. That's why I was not able to drill the hole in it. Maybe using a small grinding bit in the Dremel to initially grind through the hardened surface would work.

denster
July 30, 2010, 05:10 PM
Another trick is to spot anneal it. Not hard to do just clamp something like vise grips over the full cock notch to act as a heat sink. Polish the area you are going to drill and heat it with a pencill torch until it goes blue. The case is only .003 to .005 deep so that is all you have to anneal.

Model-P
July 30, 2010, 07:25 PM
Yes, but then the sear would also be annealed (talking about the hammer).

Hawg Haggen
July 30, 2010, 07:34 PM
The color case hardening on Pietta, Uberti and even Ruger single actions is cosmetic only. It's not real.

Model-P
July 30, 2010, 08:59 PM
I understand that, but the parts are definitely hardened. Hopefully they are case hardened, or they run the risk of fracturing at the hardness I am experiencing. A part does not have to be color cased to be case hardened.

denster
July 30, 2010, 08:59 PM
Model P. That is why you put the vise grips over the full cock notch it acts as a heat sink. You only put the heat on the small spot where you intend to drill. Best bet though if you are concerned with that process is the carbide drills although spotting with a small dremel grinding stone would work also if you don't let it get away from you.

Hawg. Sorry bud you are wrong. The case hardening on Uberti and Pietta is done with cyanide so the colors are different than Colt but they are case hardened for sure.

CajunPowder
August 3, 2010, 03:27 PM
http://206.125.47.52/showthread.php?t=283505 , a good discussion on timing.