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Azguy
July 25, 2010, 10:50 AM
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=5982

Friday, July 23, 2010

As announced in a recent fundraising letter to its members, the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) will launch a “once-in-a-lifetime campaign” this summer to “ban all lead bullets everywhere in the United States.” Make no mistake, hunters and shooters are in the crosshairs of this extremist group.

With regard to issues pertaining to wildlife and the environment, the NRA focuses on science when formulating its decisions and policies, not politics and emotion. We would all be better off if CBD did the same. With no scientific justification for a lead ban, CBD’s campaign is a deceptive attack on hunting. Radical environmental groups like the CBD have already contributed to declining hunter numbers by helping to eliminate access to vast public hunting lands. A complete lead ban would exacerbate this decline by mandating expensive non-traditional ammunition. Hunting should not be an activity limited to the wealthy; every hunter is essential to sustaining our great American sporting heritage.

Similarly, the recreational shooting that allows gun owners to hone skills and exercise their Second Amendment rights would be dramatically curtailed due to cost increases. The boxes of .22 long rifle, 9mm and .30-06 that families have shot for generations during trips to the range, the back 40 or at public shooting areas will be priced beyond reach for most.

Hunters and gun owners have been the greatest contributors to conservation for nearly a century. In addition to volunteer efforts to improve habitat, billions of dollars dedicated to habitat and wildlife restoration projects have been generated through the payment of hunting license fees and excise taxes on firearms, ammunition and other hunting equipment. At a time when jobs are badly needed, hunting generates billions of dollars of economic activity and more than one million jobs in the United States. To attack hunters and gun owners in this deceptive manner will be detrimental to the economy and the wildlife CBD claims to seek to help.

The Environmental Protection Agency has adopted lead management practices that “have been proven to effectively reduce lead contamination” at shooting ranges and has never called for restrictions on the use of lead ammunition. Some non-traditional ammunition has even been found to raise new concerns. If the campaign to ban traditional ammunition is successful, rest assured that the radical environmentalists will soon initiate a plan to ban the “next best thing.”

In its over-the-top fundraising plea to its members, CBD states, “The NRA will spend $100 for every dollar we spend. It will pull out all the stops against us.” What the elitists in the CBD do not understand is that NRA’s power comes from its millions of members who will take action to preserve the use of traditional ammunition for current and future generations. Indeed, we will pull out all of the stops because this fight is too important to lose.

Please be sure to educate your friends, family, fellow sportsmen and elected officials about these types of attacks and the radical groups behind them.

Crosshair
July 25, 2010, 02:11 PM
There is no scientific reason for banning lead ammunition.

Elemental lead is, for all intents and purposes, inert. The "problem" has more to do with old lead painted buildings and other sources of organic lead compounds. Then add naturally occurring lead to the mix as well.

JackL
July 25, 2010, 03:46 PM
Crosshair said:There is no scientific reason for banning lead ammunition.

When have either science or reason played a significant role in politics? Especially hoplophobe politics?

Now I gotta go look up these wackjobs. Thanks for the heads-up, Azguy.

Crosshair
July 25, 2010, 04:46 PM
When have either science or reason played a significant role in politics? Especially hoplophobe politics?
Never, they banned environmentally friendlier steel core ammunition by saying that it was "armor piercing". They'll probably try and ban the copper ammunition by saying that it's casing copper toxicity.

Wildalaska
July 25, 2010, 04:56 PM
The sky is falling

WildsosendmoneyAlaska TM

Crosshair
July 25, 2010, 05:16 PM
The sky is falling
People 1985 would have laughed at the thought of steel core ammunition being banned and the MG registry closed.

It's not that we need to get our panties in a twist over this. Just that we not let it go on unopposed and passed into law.

simonkenton
July 25, 2010, 08:30 PM
They are concerned about lead contaminating firing ranges.

Lead is a mineral that is mined from the ground.
At a firing range, lead bullets are shot back into the ground, into an earthen berm.

I don't get it.

Crosshair
July 25, 2010, 09:03 PM
They are concerned about lead contaminating firing ranges.

Lead is a mineral that is mined from the ground.
At a firing range, lead bullets are shot back into the ground, into an earthen berm.

I don't get it.
Exactly. The lead in bullets is elemental lead, which is for all intents and purposes inert unless you have VERY acidic soil. They still pull Mini Balls out of the ground that are still full weight 150 years later.

The problem is almost certainly elsewhere. From old abandoned mines, to old buildings with lead paint, to illegal dumping of appliances and electronics. Those sources discharge ORGANIC lead compounds, which are the problem. Elemental lead is not readily absorbed into the body, organic lead is.

EdInk
July 25, 2010, 10:18 PM
Well, if they want all the ammo.....you knownthe quickest way to give it to them. :D

Just kidding.

I can't fully understand why these enviromental whackos are fussing about lead ammo at gun ranges. It's not like thousand of gallons of crude oil is being spewed into the Gulf of Mexico and costing the lives of animals and hurting local business owners.

Crosshair
July 25, 2010, 10:36 PM
It's not about the environment and has not been for years. They are called "Watermellons" for a reason. Green on the outside, red on the inside.

Patrick Moore, one of Greenpeace's founders, left the organization after it became clear to him that the organization was no longer an environmental organization, but a political organization cloaked in environmentalism.

Why I Left Greenpeace (http://sweetness-light.com/archive/a-founder-explains-why-he-left-greenpeace)

It becomes easy to understand these organizations once you realize that they don't actually care about the environment. They simply use green language to achieve non-environmental political goals. Their actions then make a lot more sense. Once you understand their motivations and methods, then it becomes that much easier to thwart and oppose them. Once you know their position is the unscientific and illogical one it them becomes trivial to shoot down their arguments.

Much like how MADD morphed from a drunk driving awareness organization to a neo-prohibitionist organization. (Whose founder also left the organization is disgust.)

shortwave
July 26, 2010, 05:00 AM
It's not about the environment and has not been for years...

Patrick Moore, one of Greenpeace's founders, left the organization after it became clear to him the organization was no longer an environmental organization, but a political organization cloaked in environmentalism.


Some things are just worth repeating.
Well said Crosshairs.;)

Rifleman1776
July 26, 2010, 07:22 AM
Shooters often lose these arguments because we are just plain to logical. Reason and common sense have no place in this type of movement or efforts to stop them.
What is needed is plain old hard nosed lobbying of both state and federal legislators. Supporters of the 2ndA need to run for office and liberal 'anti's' need to be voted out of office and/or warned they will be if they support nonsense like this.
It ain't a moderated debate guys. It is in the gutter, blood and guts, tooth and nail dirty fighting.
About 1990 a piece of legislation in the Arkansas Legislature passed the House 99-1 that would have banned ALL ammunition containing "any metallic substance". When I heard about that I went to the Capitol, a 150 mile drive on my own nickle, and lobbied the Senate before it went to a vote. Because of my actions it was killed in committee. My message was simple, pass this and not a single one of you jerks will get reelected.
Forget the science. Put on your steel toed boots and kick them where it hurts.:mad:

Crosshair
July 26, 2010, 10:34 AM
Shooters often lose these arguments because we are just plain to logical. Reason and common sense have no place in this type of movement or efforts to stop them.
Reason and common sense most certainly have a place. Our problem is that we assume people already have common sense and know better. We need to assume that people know nothing about the subject and then form our fight as an educational one.

Fight back just as loud as the watermellons, but use logic and facts, not fear and emotion. Don't let it turn into a slap fight.

What is needed is plain old hard nosed lobbying of both state and federal legislators.
Exactly, and do it with facts and logic. Show that the Anti's Emperor has no clothes.

Doc Hoy
July 26, 2010, 11:45 AM
....I have seen pro-firearm literature which in my opinion did nothing the further the efforts because of the way in which it was presented.

I will give you my opinion and please understand it is only my opinion.

Just as some activists think we should solve the energy/environmental problems by shifting back to horses, some pro-firearms folks think that every person in the US, regardless of any mitigating trait, should have access to any kind of weapon they desire. My opinion is that the second amendment was never intended to be interpretted as affording that level of coverage.

I also think that most reasonable people would agree that giving a firearm to a convicted murderer can and does create problems. Consequently if such person is in possession of a firearm it is probably an illegal possession.

Horace Kephart said, "The zealot injures his cause by his own excess."

I am an ardent, and I do mean ardent, supporter of the second amendment. In fact I am so strongly supportive of the concepts embodied in the amendment that when I see something occur that serves to weaken its effect, I get angry. That includes all forms of lunacy.

So for as much as I dislike politics and politicians I am in favor of the idea presented by Rifleman1776 and repeated by Crosshair.

This is an important post that was composed over a brief time and with numerous interuptions. I certainly hope it is not interpretted so as to confuse anyone about my support for this pivotal constitutional affirmation. I just think there are right ways to go about it and wrong ways to go about it. And that the wrongs ways can be very damaging.

We can make no mistake the the folks who want to ban lead bullets have absolutely no concern about the effects of lead, or they would learn more about it. (How many of them use tobacco?) This is an anti firearm effort if ever I saw one. As has been said here more than once, it needs to be addressed deliberately.

Gator Weiss
July 27, 2010, 01:44 PM
Lead is everywhere. Lead is in everything. The computer you are posting on is full of lead and silver and gold and tin and steal and brass and plastic and mercury and glass and zinc and magnesium and aluminum and antimony, etc, etc, etc. Lead is in the auto industry. In the gas station. On the car. Lead is in plumbing, electrical, just about everything has lead in it.

Lead is in the glassware industry. The ornate crystal wine glasses that sparkle like diamond are made by melting lead into molton glass. This makes the glass sparkle like a diamond by bending light around the lead molecules. When you pour alcohol (wine) or other beverage into the glass, there is some lead level that can be read with instrumentation. Lead levels are so slight in the lead crystal glass that you are more likely to get more lead - ten times the level - out of your city water supply than out of that wineglass. Some crystal glass manufacturers coat the glass inside only with a clear polymer finish. But things come out of the polymer too.

Why dont these anti-lead morons attack these other industries? WHY? Because they are not attacking lead. They are attacking guns. Why are they attacking guns? Because they are liberal scum operating on an anti-American agenda.

The moral of the story? Tell these liberal wimps not to suck on lead balls and minie and maxi bullets and they wont contract lead poisoning. I dont know about you, but my Mamma told me not to put my .58 caliber BP bullets in my mouth, because they go in my possible bag, cartridge box or ammo pouch. She did not need to be educated by a liberal to tell me that.

As for me, I am going to keep shooting and casting and shooting till my heart is content. If they dont like it, they kiss my backside.

If they want to do something positive in the world, why dont the morons protest gang activity? Why dont they protest drive-by shootings? Why dont they clean up the ghettos instead of using it as a free giveaway to harvest democrat votes from? The liberal is a corrupt person and they show us that everyday.

Shooters need to harvest spent bullets from backstops and re-cycle them through the lead pot or turn them in to the metal recycling center. Dont leave the bullets out there to stack up in tonnage for the libs to holler about.

Hardcase
July 27, 2010, 03:32 PM
Were I a betting man, I would put money on them attempting to draw a link between the use of lead shot in bird hunting and lead exposure from eating the birds.

I can see something like: We don't allow tiny little lead pellets for bird hunting, so why is it OK to use a huge lead bullet everywhere else? After all, if those little pellets are poisonous, think of what a big bullet can do!

It's worthwhile to be aware that this stuff is going on, but I do not for an instant believe that a lead bullet ban will enjoy any success. The NRA and others will fight vigorously enough to defeat it. Obviously, though, we do need to stay on our toes to make sure that when these backdoor gun control approaches are made, we're ready to step up and reveal them for what they are.

Model-P
July 27, 2010, 06:53 PM
I also think that most reasonable people would agree that giving a firearm to a convicted murderer can and does create problems. Consequently if such person is in possession of a firearm it is probably an illegal possession.

I consider myself reasonable, and I agree it would be a bad idea to GIVE a gun to a convicted murderer, and I have never heard of anyone proposing to do so. Guns don't belong in the hands of prisoners.

Consider:
A convict should be incarcerated. Once he has paid for the crime, he should again be a free citizen. If he is not ready to be trusted as a free man, he should still be incarcerated. If allowing prior-convicts to own firearms is a problem, then it is the fault of the court system for releasing them before they have fully paid for their crime and learned the hard lesson. Hard labor should replace baseball, weight lifting and watching TV, the way it used to be.

Consider:
We as gun owners always spout that gun control laws do not work because criminals will always be able to get guns, yet some who should know better seem to also feel that laws are somehow able to keep guns out of the hands of prior convicts. Go figure. The antis love it when we contradict ourselves just as much as we love it when they contradict themselves. Just agree with the Founding Fathers that NO free man should be debarred the use of arms and there will be no contradictions.

Edward429451
July 27, 2010, 07:23 PM
It was a sad feeling as I stood and looked at my shelves of cast boolits and pondered the thought that each one of these boolits will be a felony one day.

I'm very low on cast boolits right now so I would have less than 2000 felonys, if they got me spring of last year it woulda been the death penalty for sure :D

Smokin_Gun
July 28, 2010, 04:22 AM
I was paid by this Country to to Protect it from it's enemies foreign and domestic...I swore an oath to keep us free and protect the Constituton. I never unswore that oath and still a Soldier at my post till the day they plant me. My freedom and post are at my front door now. As I said I was trained and told to kill all enemies foreign or domestic to protect this Country. So if anyone wants to try over running my post over lead feel free to try. They'll find out that lead can be poisenous/lethal and that I'm tired of the bullcrap... :cool:
I don't like these discussions either they jus' plain psss me off...but the truth has to be known and I thank all that respond to these posts as I do read them all.
Now you know why I usually don't post on this type topic. If ya don't here from me you'll know why :O) (they read this too)
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/2010%20Summer/CSAKepi.jpg

arcticap
July 28, 2010, 12:06 PM
The idea to ban all lead bullets in the U.S. just doesn't make any sense. That would mean the the military and law enforcement couldn't use lead bullets either.
Notice that there aren't any legislative bills mentioned as being proposed, it's only a sham of a propaganda campaign so some folks can make money while the majority of citizens only get angry.
The entire nation would be over run with deer and criminals in no time at all.
And too many folks would simply be put out of work.
Since most politicians are responsible, diligent, weigh all of the factors and value their jobs, it's just a bad joke.
I wouldn't even bother to dignify the idea by getting upset about it.
It's not an idea worth the time of day.

orangello
July 28, 2010, 04:59 PM
I guess i better study up on how to pour my own projectiles & where to get the raw materials. As little as i get to use my lil sidelock pistol, i could probably afford to use copper balls, but i would be afraid of introducing another variable into the "make it go far & straight but don't blow up the barrel" equation without some solid guidance.

ClemBert
July 28, 2010, 05:17 PM
I was paid by this Country to to Protect it from it's enemies foreign and domestic...I swore an oath to keep us free and protect the Constituton.

And for that I SALUTE YOU!

Sadly, it has become somewhat of a joke that these same politicians who swear that same oath within 15 minutes are trying to circumvent and destroy it.

Besides y'all...you don't have to ban lead. All you have to do is create an "environmental use" tax that makes the bullets cost 100x more than they do today. The outcome is the same.

Sgt.Saputo
August 4, 2010, 07:16 PM
Ban all lead bullets, that's wishful thinking. Next it will be "ban all rubber tires" or "Ban all yellow cheese". They knwo it's to hard to ban firearms so they will just try banning them piece by piece. Not gonna happen.

okiefarmer
August 4, 2010, 07:29 PM
Makes about as much sense as the EPA's effort to ban dust on the farm. Yes, they want dust to be considered hazardous and a finable offense if they see it.

I would make a bet that no one in the EPA has ever gone hungry in their lives, as that is likely the first occurence that will take place if farm dust is outlawed. Not many crops grown without it.

Doyle
August 4, 2010, 07:51 PM
That would mean the the military and law enforcement couldn't use lead bullets either.


Military is already in the process of switching to lead free. That is being driven primarily from the large amounts of lead that accumulates at the firing ranges.

Crosshair
August 4, 2010, 09:01 PM
Military is already in the process of switching to lead free. That is being driven primarily from the large amounts of lead that accumulates at the firing ranges.
Those "lead free" efforts with Bismuth-Tin bullets will fail just as previous attempts have.

Bismuth-Tin is LESS environmentally friendly than lead. Calculate the environmental costs of mining Bismuth and Tin, both of which is quite high, and lead comes out as the more environmentally friendly choice.

Bismuth is actually quite scarce, only about 8 times as abundant as gold. So I have no idea where the hell they are getting the supply.

Looking at current metal prices, this is the best info I could find:

Lead is selling for about $1,600 a ton
Basic steel is selling for about $415 a ton.
Copper is selling for about $6,300 a ton
Tin is selling for about $17,000 a ton
Bismuth is selling for about $16,000 a ton.

The supply of Bismuth is heavily dependent on recycling old Bismuth. Start using it like this in bullets on a massive scale and the price is going to greatly increase as demand outstrips supply.

Then again, watermellons don't care about whether something is good for the environment. As long as it "feels good" it must be right.

Once the ammo bills start piling up lead is gonna come back VERY quickly.