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Culit
July 13, 2010, 10:11 PM
Hi to all,

I'm new at this. Research on my Grandfather's shotgun has hit a dead end. Information about it's history would sure be appreciated. This what's known so far.
J P Sauer & Sohn, Suhl
DRGM 130243 = Deutsche Reich Gebrauchmuster 1900-1906
SN 143655

side by side 27" barrels by Freid. Krupp A.G. Essen
stamped Special Gewer Lauf Stahl = German Special High Grade Steel
and Three Circles = Trademark of Krupp

Proof Marks:
Crown over U test mark Beschussamt 1893-1912
Crown over choked bore inspection mark
16 in a circle
16 over a 1
70 on receiver
hammerless and with a round safety button that slides on the left side of stock

Thanks
Bob

PetahW
July 15, 2010, 06:07 PM
I would doubt any "history", pertinent to your particular shotgun, could be found at this late date, unless some previous owner left some paperwork under the buttplate, etc.

FWIW, the model sounds like it is either a Model 60, or the gun that became the Model 60 - made up to WWII.

Pics would help...........................

"16", of course is the gauge, "70" is the length of the fired shotshell in mm's - which converts to 2-3/4".
.

Culit
July 19, 2010, 08:31 PM
The barrels are 26 3/4" (68 cm) which I've not found in any other posts or sales.

http://s1044.photobucket.com/albums/b443/Culitbob/J%20P%20Sauer%20and%20Sohn/

Scorch
July 20, 2010, 03:02 AM
Very, very nice shotgun.
Imperial eagle mark puts production prior to 1918.
Marked with Suhl proofhouse mark, of course.
Choked barrel proof, choke constriction markings, 16 gauge markings, chamber length designation, and smoothbore proofs.
Krupp forged steel barrels and black powder proofs would indicate it is not safe with smokeless loads.

Culit
July 20, 2010, 05:22 PM
Thank you for that information. I know the 16 in a circle is the gauge. Is there a link to information explaing which marks explain the information you know?

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b443/Culitbob/J%20P%20Sauer%20and%20Sohn/2010_07_18017-1.jpg

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b443/Culitbob/J%20P%20Sauer%20and%20Sohn/2010_07_18012_1.jpg

Best regards,

Bob

mapsjanhere
July 20, 2010, 06:22 PM
The eagle stamp - preliminary proof of the unfinished barrel, before 1939
crown over U - definite proof of finished gun
crown over W - proof for choked barrels
The top pictures seems to show a date stamp of 1 38, next to a crown over S for smoothbore barrels.
I don't see the Suhl mark (http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto-T4QQCMMY-G.jpg), it would be a crest with a pick in a sole.
The best source I've found for proof mark info is Wirnsberger's (http://www.amazon.com/Standard-Directory-Proof-Marks-Wirnsberger/dp/089149006X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279668016&sr=8-2) book, but there is a lot of conflicting info out there.

Scorch
July 20, 2010, 10:27 PM
The eagle stamp - preliminary proof of the unfinished barrel, before 1939
crown over U - definite proof of finished gun
crown over W - proof for choked barrels
The top pictures seems to show a date stamp of 1 38, next to a crown over S for smoothbore barrels.
I don't see the Suhl mark , it would be a crest with a pick in a sole.

Sorry, mapsjanhere, I was under the impression that the Crown/S mark was for black powder, as per the Blue Book. Is that not right?

I read the date as 14.3.6, which I thought was March 6, 1914. When I said the Suhl proofmark, I meant the Sauer mark (standing man with spear).

sauerfan
July 21, 2010, 11:28 AM
hammerless and with a round safety button that slides on the left side of stock

Thanks
Bob

Hi Bob,

interesting gun. a side mounted safety button on a sauer shotgun is VERY unusual. Only the double rifles had this feature, but normally the shotguns not (safety slide on top). Can you post pictures of the left side of the receiver please?

BTW: judging from the SN, manufacturing date is app. 1908. Below SN 200,000 (=1913) estimation of production time is just a guess based on known and confirmed SNs. Only Sns over 200,000 can be determined exactly.

The "70" on the receiver definitely has nothing to do with the chamber length. I liked to see photos of this also.

Next: on the barrel there are the usual proof markings of the time plus the large crown (Sauer's brand of excellence) and plus the "wild man with the club", what was Sauer's trademark.

Said DRGM (what's a petty patent) was for the rib on the hammer axcle indicating cocking (decocking) of the hammer(s).

Regards

Martin

mapsjanhere
July 21, 2010, 11:44 AM
Scorch, these guys http://www.germanguns.com/technical.html list it as crown S for smooth bore, but I checked some of my other references and they have it as black powder. I have to see if I can track down the original German rules.
As for the date, the standard was a month/year stamp, I've not seen any actual date (which excludes that 1436 from being a date mark under German date conventions (it would need to be day/month/year). The number underneath could be a 138 which could be a date stamp, at least by format.

Culit
July 27, 2010, 08:47 PM
http://sauerfineguns.blogg.se/english/category/history.html lists some of the Sauer patent numbers, including 130243 standard protection cocking indicator.

The barrel marking below the serial number is 1 3 8. If that indicates January 3 or March 1, 1908, it fits with patent use date (1900- 1906) and that the gun not proofed for smokeless powder.

Bob

SDC
July 27, 2010, 09:27 PM
The little "caveman" used by Sauer as a trademark was taken from the Prussian coat of arms, and he's holding a club; this close-up is from Satinsky's "Ruzhenie Kleyma i ix Znachenie"/"Gun Marks and Their Meanings"

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p22/StaceyC123/48.gif

mapsjanhere
July 28, 2010, 07:32 AM
Culit, date stamps weren't used until the 1912 proof law, and even then only sporadically. Reading 1 3 8 as 1. March 1908 is like a coin stamped 20 BC. Also, the B U series of proofs included smokeless powder, there isn't always a separate N stamp if you have BUS (or BUG on rifles) on the gun.

PetahW
July 28, 2010, 06:10 PM
[Is there a link to information explaing which marks explain the information you know?]


Bob - Here's a link to the BlueBook's pages on Proof Marks, which is only once source of info.

Scroll down to the German section, for some, but not all, German proofs.

https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdf

.

mapsjanhere
July 29, 2010, 07:48 AM
The blue book list is rather incomplete on German marks, even just looking at post WW II. There are for example 3 different versions of the West German eagle stamp used (the letter codes staying the same), and the East Germans used as DR stamp from 45 - 50. So don't rely on that list to determine a right or wrong for a gun of that time.