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Norrick
May 22, 2010, 05:27 PM
I am watching the military channel and the show is called "Modern Sniper" and what they're basically saying is that they're (Army) using a new formula to accurately take shots without revealing the snipers position. They are not revealing the formula.

Part of the technique involves the sniper shooting through what they keep calling a "loop hole" It is literally some sort of wall with a very small hole in it, just large enough for the bullet to pass through. I guess this is made possible by the new more accurate formula. The idea here being that you keep the sniper concealed.

What caught my attention was the "top secret formula" portion. It was described in a rather vague way so I'm not exactly sure what they mean.

Do they mean a ballistic formula? As in a more accurate way to calculate bullet drop at certain ranges? I use ballistic calculators but I don't really know where they come from. I see G1 function referenced alot, and supposedly there are multiple formulas.

I just took a fluid mechanics class, and I couldn't imagine anything being more accurate than hard math with good empirical constants. So whats so inaccurate about the current ballistic models? Are they created with compromises? Or am I misunderstanding the wording that the television program was using?

the rifleer
May 22, 2010, 05:34 PM
Alot of the information of the stuff in tv shows on the history channel and military channel about guns is not 100% accurate. Its close enough for most people to understand, but to someone who is a true marksman and an avid shooter the info is vague and not descriptive. They never go into much detail about anything.

It sounds like they are talking about the techniques used. snipers idealy shoot from completly consealed postions. If you are shooting threw a hole in the wall of a dark room, this is ideal because even if someone outside is looking in, they still can't see you. i believe that is what a loop hole is, but im not sure. A good sniper would NEVER poke his barrel out a window or something like that, they would shoot from inside the room.

Norrick
May 22, 2010, 05:38 PM
the footage they showed of this "loop hole" was literally a wooden wall made of what looked like plywood, set up maybe 15 yards in front of the sniper. Their field of view of the other side of the wall was literally restricted to what they could see through this 2x2 inch hole in the wall. The target was not just on the other side of the wall, but rather further down range on the other side.

It doesn't seem practical since a target could easily move out of the field of view. Perhaps it was just for training, but like I said, I still don't know if the word "formula" was literally meaning calculations or if it was used analogous to "technique"

Head-Space
May 22, 2010, 05:38 PM
Some recent programs I've seen note that they're placing the shooters deep in the interiors of rooms to conceal position and make the report harder to pinpoint. But that's nothing new.

Physics is physics. Or is that "physics are physics" ? The military is using new range finders and scope dope calculators, faster, simpler, more accurate. And a lot of this technology is secret.

Something that's not secret but all too often gets overlooked in the romance of the big, accurate guns, scopes, and long distance shots. Big aspect of the sniper mission is reconnaissance, intelligence. And you need to be really, really sneaky.

deadeye1122
May 22, 2010, 05:45 PM
I watch the history channel and have seen the show or something similar. I think the Loop Hole is more for concealment than ballistics. Hide behind something that has a large enough opening to see the target and for the round to go Thu and take the shot. Unless deflected wouldn't it be the same as shooting in the open? Deadeye

Double Naught Spy
May 22, 2010, 05:58 PM
Part of the technique involves the sniper shooting through what they keep calling a "loop hole" It is literally some sort of wall with a very small hole in it, just large enough for the bullet to pass through. I guess this is made possible by the new more accurate formula.

No formula is going to change the trajectory of the bullet itself. If the hole is just big enough for the bullet to pass through, then how does the sniper see his target?

Their field of view of the other side of the wall was literally restricted to what they could see through this 2x2 inch hole in the wall.

Okay, that helps. The hole in the was is tall enough to take into account the sight axes over the bore axis/trajectory of the round being fired. My guess is that the sniper is sighting through the hole near the top of it and the bullet passes through the hole closer to the bottom of it. At 15 yards distance, the hole would give away very little light if the shot was in low light and certainly no smoke or firing debris would exit the hole.

The shot isn't hugely remarkable and I don't see where there would be any sort of secret formula to make it possible.

johnwilliamson062
May 22, 2010, 10:26 PM
I think they are actually working on snipers taking shots on targets where they can't directly see the target as some of you guessed. With a set of laser rangefinder/targeters I am guessing this is possible. I don't buy they have some physics bending math formula. Either they just shoot through a really small hole, or they are using an off gun optical device to aim.

I am not positve, but I think that at say 800 yards a 2X2 hole would not afford you both a view of the target and a clear shot at the correct trajectory.

Eagleks
May 23, 2010, 12:00 AM
there is supposed to be some much newer bullet trails technology that will then recalculate changes quickly, to hit the target accurately with a 2nd shot.

Zak Smith
May 23, 2010, 12:08 AM
Wow, this is hilarious
there is supposed to be some much newer bullet trails technology that will then recalculate changes quickly, to hit the target accurately with a 2nd shot.
Like spotting the impact position of the first shot and applying the correction to the aiming device.

I am not positve, but I think that at say 800 yards a 2X2 hole would not afford you both a view of the target and a clear shot at the correct trajectory.

For a regular long-range rifle setup, the hole just needs to be the height of the bottom of the bore to the top of the scope (it can be shorter on the top but it will make the exit pupil proportionally smaller). Thus for a .30 caliber rifle with a 1.75" sight over bore and a 50mm scope objective the hole would need to be approx 3.9" tall. Provided the hole is within ten yards of the shooter, the distance the scope is dialed for makes no difference.

noyes
May 23, 2010, 12:52 AM
Technology great stuff...jet engine ..but ..imagine............


these systems will be capable of detecting and discriminating between types of FOD entering the inlet and leaving the exhaust , “hearing” changes in bear- ... fan, which provided some lift and prevented the engine exhaust from ...


maybe not so funny..i.m.o.

Scorch
May 23, 2010, 01:30 AM
Top secret sniper formula
there is supposed to be some much newer bullet trails technology that will then
Some recent programs I've seen note that
Sorry to sound like an old man, but do you people spend your whole lives watching TV and actually believe what you see on it? Try reading a book or something. Just about everything you want to know about sniper training was developed in the 1960s and 1970s and is public information. Or better yet, join up and go get the training for yourself.
Wow, this is hilarious
I almost agree, Zak, but it scares the heck out of me.

mIcKdOg7
May 23, 2010, 05:13 AM
A loop hole isnt just a hole in a wall, as you may know when sniping in the battle feild snipers may stalk their targets in ghillie suits and so on, as they find a suitable hide(place to take their shot from whilst being consealed)they must make sure they have a suitable loop hole, a loop hole can be described as a natural hole through vegetation, this is where a sniper laying in grass perhaps will have a direct line of sight to the target in order for them to take a shot. i dont see how a formula could have anything to do with this. i belive this formula may be a used in order to calculate the minutes of angle for adjustment they need, if so, i dont see why they wouldnt tell you the formula besides anyone with half a brain could figure out how much to angle their rifle relative to the distance of the target.

Norrick
May 23, 2010, 05:32 AM
but do you people spend your whole lives watching TV and actually believe what you see on it?

When I'm not working, going to class, or spending time with the lady, I usually browse this forum and watch something of interest on TV. Just my routine, yours may vary. I don't believe everything I see; in fact I criticize most television programs (I also mute commercials)--but the heart of my question, if you read my post, was, are current ballistic formulas made with compromises? In other words, is it possible they are switching to some alternative that is more accurate, or more practical in some way?

Or was the word formula more loosely used to mean technique?

ScottRiqui
May 23, 2010, 09:24 AM
there is supposed to be some much newer bullet trails technology that will then recalculate changes quickly, to hit the target accurately with a 2nd shot.

Like spotting the impact position of the first shot and applying the correction to the aiming device.

There's the potential for a lot more information than just the impact point of the first (missed) shot.

There are medium-wave infrared bullet trackers already in the field that visually show you the entire path of the bullet in flight. Right now, they're used in counter-sniper applications to follow the path of a bullet back to the sniper, but there's no reason why they couldn't also be used (with or without additional electronics) to detect the path of a missed shot and provide an aimpoint correction for the next shot. This would be extremely helpful if the geometry of the shot means that the initial miss didn't impact anywhere near the target (like shooting upwards at a target on a rooftop or a ridgeline.)

1911rocks
May 23, 2010, 09:38 AM
Double Naught Spy is close. When you shoot through a small loop hole (less than sufficient to observe the target through) The math accommodates the distance from the First Focal Plane to the Loop Hole, the bullet drop/rise and windage in that same distance. The math is not that profound, however, the "no sight picture" matter is a bit trickier. The distance and angle to the loop hole is another matter. The Proprietary component is in the latter two areas. Oh, by the way, it's a way big deal. The Hole can actually be as little as 1" x 1" at a distance of 100'. No application for the Mall Ninjas or Halo geeks.

Tangentabacus
May 23, 2010, 11:37 AM
Just remember, you saw it on TV, and the reason it's on TV is so people will watch, and if saying "secret formula" is enough for someone to unknowingly promote their show on some random gun forum... Mission accomplished.

Although, something tells me that they have been doing these through the hole, no sight picture shots for a little while now. I wouldn't doubt the daring and skill of some marksmen.

Flatbush Harry
May 23, 2010, 11:54 AM
I have noticed that, since this show went on a while back, everyone and his brother has been having this sex fantasy about being a "long-range competitor/sniper", playing at 1000 yds and posting here and on other fora (the appropriate Latin plural of forum) asking what rifle and scope to get.

It's kinda funny...when I go to my local rifle range (public), there are more operators and sniper wannabes then in the service of King Barack I. Most of them can't get a group at 100 yds but they're ready to go.

:rolleyes:

FH, non-operator, non-sniper, not tacticool at all

JackL
May 23, 2010, 12:03 PM
Posted by the rifleer:
Alot of the information of the stuff in tv shows on the history channel and military channel about guns is not 100% accurate.

Substitute "any topic" for "about guns", especially if the topic is at all technical or scientific. Seems like every time I watch a HC or DC documentary on any subject I know anything about, they get a disappointing number of things wrong.

History Channel's Tales of the Gun was a lot better than most; on the episodes I saw, I could usually only pick out one or two real howlers per hour.

kodiakbeer
May 23, 2010, 12:29 PM
The sniper has a spotter to find targets and call corrections. He doesn't need to find a target through a small hole across the room.

Again though, nothing new.

B.L.E.
May 23, 2010, 01:44 PM
Have they developed a device that can accurately measure and range the various cross winds that the bullet will experience during its flight? Or is it done by the shooter's estimation of watching mirage through his scope.

It doesn't matter how accurate a ballistic calculator is, garbage in still equals garbage out.

noyes
May 23, 2010, 01:47 PM
B.O.R.S.

kraigwy
May 23, 2010, 05:42 PM
I am watching the military channel and the show is called "Modern Sniper" and what they're basically saying is that they're (Army) using a new formula to accurately take shots without revealing the snipers position. They are not revealing the formula

Secret formula muy butt; You're talking about loophole shooting.

If you can read a ballistic table, and can run your bullets through a chronagraph without killing the chronagraph, you know the secret formula.

L Puckett
May 23, 2010, 09:18 PM
As stated, it's math, there is plenty in the job. It's another skill set, taught and learned.

LP

Double Naught Spy
May 23, 2010, 09:58 PM
Double Naught Spy is close.

Woohoo! Not being a sniper, I will take "close."

When you shoot through a small loop hole (less than sufficient to observe the target through) The math accommodates the distance from the First Focal Plane to the Loop Hole, the bullet drop/rise and windage in that same distance. The math is not that profound, however, the "no sight picture" matter is a bit trickier. The distance and angle to the loop hole is another matter. The Proprietary component is in the latter two areas. Oh, by the way, it's a way big deal. The Hole can actually be as little as 1" x 1" at a distance of 100'. No application for the Mall Ninjas or Halo geeks.

We actually have done this a couple of times with bigger "loop holes," the last of which was roughly basketball-sized and it was about 60 yards out from us and we shot at 200 and so 160 out at 300. The goal was to hit targets but only by shooting through the hole. We did it as a challenge and as a way to play with trajectory, not for clandestine sniping, but I can definitely see how it works.

I have a bit of trouble with the notion of shooting at targets you can't actually see. That sounds a lot like what the artillary guys do in real life, only they have the cannons calibrated and ranged and so knows where the rounds will fall based on how the cannon is setup. For the sniper, it would mean aiming at something that isn't the target...which is beyond my scope.

I think we may have to make a plywood loophole board and have some fun with working with smaller and smaller holes. Sounds like a neat challenge.

fisherman66
May 24, 2010, 08:31 AM
It sounds like nothing more than a method to reduce muzzleblast. The room acts like a sound suppressor or if it's just a board it reflects the sound. Military marksmen have been using that technique since the introduction of cartridges. From an adequate distance shooting past a large surface such as a barn or brick building will cause the target to hear the sonic crack coming from that large surface (barn, ect.) I don't believe there's anything top secret other than how broadcasters and tv channels make their money.

Jim Watson
May 24, 2010, 09:11 AM
I recall Herbert W. McBride described the use of a "loophole" while shooting at Germans (and vice versa) during WW I.

Zak Smith
May 24, 2010, 11:27 AM
At the site where we run the Steel Safari, we do, from time to time, shoot at targets in the 300-600 yard regime over some intermediate obstacle like a hilltop or rock pile. From the shooting position, the shooter cannot see the target (by a small amount), but by knowing the data for the target distance and spotting the apparent aim point on the obstacle. The spotter stands in a position to see both the target area to relay information back to the shooter if he misses.

cannonfire
May 24, 2010, 11:51 AM
I saw the same show, and the instructors were actually measuring the hole to make sure it was only 2x2 in. so it is not just 'any loophole' such as vegetation (not that i'm arguing that that is wrong) but as of the OP, I think the term 'formula' is being used as an actual technique, not math. But I'm not a sniper and I'm not on tv so I do not know for sure.

kodiakbeer
May 24, 2010, 12:02 PM
It sounds like nothing more than a method to reduce muzzleblast.

It's a method to not be seen. The Hollywood sniper who leans out the window to shoot doesn't exist because such a shooter would be dead very quickly. Real snipers hide back in a room to shoot through holes/windows in two or more walls to conceal their position.
A spotter (also well hidden) is nearby calling targets.

ofitg
May 24, 2010, 12:25 PM
There are medium-wave infrared bullet trackers already in the field that visually show you the entire path of the bullet in flight. Right now, they're used in counter-sniper applications to follow the path of a bullet back to the sniper, but there's no reason why they couldn't also be used (with or without additional electronics) to detect the path of a missed shot and provide an aimpoint correction for the next shot.


Watched a show about Marine snipers on the Military channel - one of the Marines held up a small thermal-imaging device and explained that it could be used for observing bullet flight paths.
I've never seen any references to thermal-imaging equipment in Nam-era sniper manuals; this must be a fairly recent development.

Jimro
May 24, 2010, 04:01 PM
This is the second forum where I've seen this topic raised.

So far no one knows the "secret formula".

If Zak Smith and KraigWy don't know it, it probably doesn't exist.

FWIW, I've been through "Sniper Employment" training, been a duty Sniper Employment Officer, and the only formula ever mentioned was the one describing the ballistic path of the bullet.

A bullet needs to have a clear flight path to the target, even if it isn't a clear line of sight. Nothing top secret about that.

Jimro

ScottRiqui
May 24, 2010, 04:19 PM
Watched a show about Marine snipers on the Military channel - one of the Marines held up a small thermal-imaging device and explained that it could be used for observing bullet flight paths.

I've never seen any references to thermal-imaging equipment in Nam-era sniper manuals; this must be a fairly recent development.

It is - I think the first field tests were in 1996 (at least in the case of the Integrated Sniper Location System, which uses long-wave IR tracking and an acoustic detector to detect bullet paths and locate a sniper's position.)

It may also be possible that a standard handheld thermal imager like those used to find bodies in a smoke-filled building could be used to track bullet paths - the wavelength range would be appropriate, if not ideal.

dcody40
May 24, 2010, 05:22 PM
BUT it would be nice if we could understand the technigues used and become better at shooting our own non lethal targets. To me it's the challenge of mastering the art of fine accurate shooting. So you real snipers out there past and current, please with all due respect to the rest of us, cut us some slack, were not after your job. Were just having fun with our toys.
Another note ! I doubt that there are really very many real snipers running around this forum. Yep, I said it !...Remember this is the internet, you can pretend all you want as long as your not hurting someone.

I worked with the pro's while in the Navy, Note I said worked with, not one of them, Seals, Army Spec Warriors, those guys are GOOD ! And know it, they don't go around busting our chops because we like to shoot also.:D

Can't say more, would have to shoot ya !, :rolleyes:you know the saying.

I'd like to be a champion indy car driver also, but don't have the money, so just drive my old chevy like it was a big old heavy indy car . :D
Regards

Duane USN/ret

Double Naught Spy
May 24, 2010, 06:32 PM
So far no one knows the "secret formula".

Duh!!!! If we knew it, then it would not be a secret, would it? ;)

If we knew, then it would just be called "the formulal" or "dope."

Jimro
May 24, 2010, 07:10 PM
You know I did a couple searches for this subject, and no one wants to put the "secret formula" out there on the internet.

But evidently "loophole shooting formula" means how to construct a loophole so that you have line of sight on a target through a small hole.

Here's a hint without any formula. A bullet is always zeroed twice, once as the bullet rises, and once as the bullet falls. If you zero an AR-15 with a standard m193 load at 25 meters, it is also zeroed at 250 meters (easy math). If you zero an AR-15 with m855 at 32 meters, it is also zeroed at 300 meters.

That means at all points before 25 or 32 meters (depending on your load), the bullet is rising UP past the line of sight. As your shot increases (the falling zero), then the distance of the near zero becomes shorter.

So whatever the formula is that calculates when the bullet crosses the line of sight has to be this "secret loophole formula".

Still, for a scoped rifle with axis of optic 1.5 to 2 inches above axis of bore, this is a non-issue. Remember at 15 feet, that 2x2 inch "loophole" represents 0.637 DEGREES (or around 38 MINUTES or 11mils) of angle. That is a pretty big hole to shoot through.

Jimro

Zak Smith
May 24, 2010, 07:57 PM
Here's a visual aid for Jimro's post
http://demigod.org/~zak/firearms/optics_1.png

SavageSniper
May 24, 2010, 08:35 PM
It sounds like nothing more than a method to reduce muzzleblast
Bingo. It is all about stealth. Remember, a sniper team is only an army of two. Masters of concealment and recon. Most folks forget that a sniper teams primary duty is recon and intel. Being a master marksman is secondary, and when shots are taken, they are usually at relative close ranges.
If you are interested in a hightec sniper system, check out the Cheytac M-200 Intervention. It was voted top platform on the military channel. You can own one too if you want to forgo buying a house or if you hit the lotto.
http://www.cheytac.com/?url=http://www.CheyTac.com//&image=images/rotate8.jpg

highvel
May 24, 2010, 10:26 PM
Cheaper Than Dirt sells demilled Soviet Loop holes, the newer technology is strictly verboten.

johnwilliamson062
May 25, 2010, 01:57 AM
It has been a while since i saw this demonstrated and it may have been on the same military channel thing or something else, but according to my memory they were shooting through holes at different ranges from fairly close to maybe 100 feet away. I believe at one point a team sends a round through a hole in a fence at least 100 ft away.

Is the secret formula one simply used to zero the rifle to whatever range the hole is at? That formula is nowhere near secret as previously mentioned.

Zak Smith
May 25, 2010, 02:12 AM
Well think about it. If the rifle is zeroed at the hole then it won't be on at the target (unless it happens to be at the second zero).

dcody40
May 25, 2010, 02:24 PM
When I did my time over in Bosnia, I scouted out (examined ) some of the former sniper area's based on all the warning signs that were still there from that very same dangerous period of time, these guys/gals would sometimes shoot through holes in broken/shot up buildings for the hiding effect. This was even in one of the movies made about Sarajevo. There were places you could see all the way through several bombed out buildings and see people in the streets going about their daily business. Some distances were over a mile out, even a rookie could get lucky and cause terror in that war. I'm pretty sure those guys knew the formula ! ;)

These snipers would shoot at anything moving any age or gender, very sad but very effective.
I would not have wanted to be there during this time in history, it would have been very hazardous to your life. We were there as peacekeepers, don't know how we did but it did end up under control after several years of bloody fighting and pure terror to the poor folks on the wrong side of that one. We were still nervous a year after the peak fighting died down. And we were well armed for anything. I don't have any details for you other than general as like any other war or military action, you had to be there to believe it. I seen some very bad stuff and the effects of this same bad stuff, Wow, if everyone in our USA could see this kind of stuff, they'd back down on all the antigun stuff with a passion and maybe haul A$$ to the local gun shop and get some for themself's. Enough said on this topic from this old Navy man.
Oh for my time in this wonderful part of the world, I recieved some kind of peacekeeping medal, given to me after I retired, they sent it via mail, I did not want to scrap up my dress uniform as a newly retired squid and go back out for a dog and pony awards show. You old vets know of what I speak !
I did my time, got my grey Never to expire Id card and started the slow conversion back to the civilian world. Lol....I'm still converting I think.

Duane USN/ret

Double Naught Spy
June 5, 2010, 12:01 AM
Saw the show. Sure enough, they mention the "secret formula" and show a guy with a calculator at the time and folks setting up a loophole shot.

Cheaper Than Dirt sells demilled Soviet Loop holes, the newer technology is strictly verboten.

No they don't, not under any key words such as the words in your description.

Maybe you have a link?

tirod
June 5, 2010, 09:04 PM
Demilled Soviet Loopholes are a member's only offer.

Loophole shooting is basic tactical training for Infantry soldiers in urban situations. It's in the manual and but no secret math is described.

Of course, to learn it you have to actually know the secret handshake and password, which are fully described to you in the first week of Basic at Ft. Benning. Since only one in 100 citizens have any military training, and only 10% of the Army is Infantry, it's one in one thousand that might know.

Of course, over the years that has amounted to a few million Infantry soldiers, but when pledged to keep a secret, well, there you are. It's a secret.

If you really really want to know, contact your local recruiter.

I can tell you it has nothing to do with the diopter principle of magnification at known distances, that it won't make your scope double in power, or that the image has to be re-erected. That's bull. You can shoot just as easily if they are upside down. Just takes some practice.

Double Naught Spy
June 5, 2010, 09:50 PM
Demilled Soviet Loopholes are a member's only offer.
Gosh, why didn't I know that? Amazing.

By "member only," you mean registered customer with an account. I am one of those. No "demilled Soviet loopholes" show up.

If you really really want to know, contact your local recruiter.

Already know how to do it. Just didn't see anything on the shot that seemed particularly special.

Stalkin_U_89
June 7, 2010, 09:34 PM
Ok to let all of you know who have been asking about the ballistic loophole formula....YES! there is..., and YES! it is a TOP SECRET formula designed to shoot through a loophole in a building as small as 3/4"s I am currently serving in the US ARMY as a Sniper i was first told about the formula in sniper school although they vaguely went over it because they weren't even authorized to tell us about it. I have been to the International Sniper Comp in 2009 and trained with sotic. When i got back from the comp . I actually performed the formula with sotic so if you wanna find the formula online your outta luck.:D The only way u can find it out is by getting in the service yourself and doing the training and the time... and all of u who say that its not true or that its not real your all very dead wrong...and it has nothing to do with zeroing your rifle to the loophole your shooting from you can do it with 100m zero but you need to know your mils and helps to have a mildot reticle. Yes its true old guys not everything is to the public, Think about it thats like a Master showing his pupil all his techniques and the pupil defeating his master because he knows all the moves......no The Master always keep one secret move to himself common sense.

kraigwy
June 7, 2010, 09:54 PM
Think about it thats like a Master showing his pupil all his techniques and the pupil defeating his master because he knows all the moves......no The Master always keep one secret move to himself common sense.

I don't claim to be a "master" BUTT, I've coached the AKNG rifle team for over 10 years. I've run several Sniper Schools, Machine gun schools, and was a LE firearms instructor. I also put on serveral HP Clinics.

I am proud when my students or shooters outdo me under my coaching. I for the most part can coach a shooter to better scores then what I got.

Any instructor, (or "master" as you call it) who doesn't instill in his shooters or students all he knows, is on an ego trip and needs to find another profession.

fisherman66
June 7, 2010, 10:00 PM
Ya gotta have either a magic bullet or a Carcano fer the figger 8 loop hole to work.;)

This one belongs in the "lay yer sillies on me" thread.

Zak Smith
June 7, 2010, 11:48 PM
There is a "formula" for making arbitrary distance long range shots through very small holes and it can be derived without any secret squirrel information. I'll leave it at that. If you can't figure it out - think harder. ;)

tachunter
June 8, 2010, 01:34 AM
I like heaing people that believe "secret formula" bs and then the experienced guys come in and tell them they are an idiot nicely. haha

Double Naught Spy
June 8, 2010, 07:47 AM
Ok to let all of you know who have been asking about the ballistic loophole formula....YES! there is..., and YES! it is a TOP SECRET formula designed to shoot through a loophole in a building as small as 3/4"s I am currently serving in the US ARMY as a Sniper i was first told about the formula in sniper school although they vaguely went over it because they weren't even authorized to tell us about it.

There may be a formula the military uses to facilitate the calculation process of shooting through a loophole and they may not share it, but it isn't anything that can't be derived otherwise. As noted above, the physics of trajectory doesn't change with the calculation process.

tirod
June 8, 2010, 10:15 AM
Cheaper than Dirt is known for outrageous low prices. I have no doubt they simply sold out to the serious shooters who need the loopholes. Demilled or not, it's no real problem to repair for those with a little carpentry skills and a drill driver. Fortunately the BATF hasn't ruled on the ownership yet, and it was only the importation clause requiring the cuts.

Good posts on "not knowing the secret," that's the idea, it's secret, right? I, too, can neither confirm nor deny there is a secret formula. I thought I was being told a secret, but maybe I wasn't, either.

Makes no difference, I got my loophole at a Tulsa gunshow back in the '70's, with the issue carrier and little sewn in instruction sheet in Russian. Nice brown canvas, it never made it to Afghanistan, which is why it survived. The adapter to fit the HK91, now that is rare, only seen one in a collection. Dude sold it off for a Panzer General's tunic with bullet holes.

Yeah, I know, collectors.

Double Naught Spy
June 8, 2010, 10:57 AM
I got my loophole at a Tulsa gunshow back in the '70's, with the issue carrier and little sewn in instruction sheet in Russian. Nice brown canvas, it never made it to Afghanistan, which is why it survived. The adapter to fit the HK91, now that is rare, only seen one in a collection. Dude sold it off for a Panzer General's tunic with bullet holes.

Then by all means show up a picture of this collector's treasure set!

I am intrigued to know just how the adapter works for something usually setup behind from a distance of feet to yards.

tackdriver
June 8, 2010, 02:40 PM
Demilled or not, it's no real problem to repair for those with a little carpentry skills and a drill driver.

I was taken advantage of on an old Eastern Bloc one by an unscrupulous peddler a few years ago on a forum that will remain nameless. Guy sold it to me without telling me it was a reweld. Now it's just a conversation piece.

CzCasull
June 8, 2010, 03:52 PM
The formula is only theory! look, it's like this....

... did you see what I did? NINJA. The formula is ninja, and ninjas are so fast you can't even say they exist.. therefore are theory. :cool:

Jack O'Conner
June 8, 2010, 07:30 PM
During Operation Restore Hope, Army snipers shot Remington bolt action rifles in .308 with match bullets by Sierra. Match bullets are not designed to expand on impact like soft nose types. Operation Restore Hope was the one that went bad in Somalia.

Jack

Double Naught Spy
June 8, 2010, 10:54 PM
And Sierra non-expanding .308 bullets used by snipers in Somalia during Restore Hope has what to do with loopholes or their formulas?

tirod
June 9, 2010, 06:27 AM
Pic of loophole:








right there ---->







Sorry, the carrier seems to be misplaced, still looking for it. I think I put it in a foot locker with the matching 1.5 x 45 - 80 Tula scope. It's not terribly bright glass, but fun to use. At least it works on the companion NVS mount, which isn't real kosher, but at least gives you some bolt holes and a pattern to drill an AR upper to use, even if it is sidemount.

I have to admit, that's the nicest loophole I've ever seen. Serious Soviet craftsmanship, straight from the Cold War days.

Art Eatman
June 9, 2010, 08:19 AM
I think the loop just got pulled, choking the hole.