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RemTim
May 21, 2010, 10:05 PM
Which cap and ball revolver would receive your highest recommendation for personal defense without conversion? What about home defense? Why???

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
May 21, 2010, 10:12 PM
I would go for either the 1851 Sheriffs model in 44 cal, or the 1860 Army
Sheriffs model also 44 cal. Load with all the Swiss FFF you can get in it and
a round ball, and tight fitting caps.

suzukibruce
May 21, 2010, 11:56 PM
tim my 1858 is my personal carry now and since i wear it almost all day, it's my home defense pistol also, but for the "3am there is a crash and i was sleeping" scenario i go for the moss 500

madcratebuilder
May 22, 2010, 06:43 AM
What ever one you shoot best and is the most reliable.

enyaw
May 22, 2010, 06:51 AM
In more than one article about tests and wound channels and real life shootings accumulated from existing records the 1860 Army 44 with it's lead ball had a rating of 75% one shot stops. By comparison the 45 Colt cartridge had 67% one shot stops.
In one test the shorter barreled Sheriff model had the highest velosities and one of the longest crush cavities in ballistic gelletain.
Naturally the Walker was at the top of the list and was comparable to the 357 in one shot stops and had a longer wound channel in the ballistic gell than a 44 mag. with a jacketed soft point bullet. The mushroom of the 44 bullet stopping it short in the gel.
In retrospec the percussion caps which can hang a cap&baller up should be made reliable naturally. I'd opt for a Remington,Rodgers&Spencer,LeMat or one other that had accomodations built in the deal with the flayed ouit caps not hanging the gun action up. Colts are the least reliable when it comes to caps hanging up the action.
While carrying a cap&baller an extra cylinder or two would help the carrier. Of course that'a cumbersom weight and bulk.
I guess if a Pard just strapped on his cap&baller leather rig and wore a long oversize shirt or long coat it could conceal.
I bet if open carry were allowed by law just wearing the rig in full sight in all it's glory with an extra birds head gripped short barreled cross draw revolver added and cylinder pouches and flask and bowie knife would be a deterent.

mykeal
May 22, 2010, 06:56 AM
The best advice I've ever heard:
What ever one you shoot best and is the most reliable.

In more than one article about tests and wound channels and real life shootings accumulated from existing records the 1860 Army 44 with it's lead ball had a rating of 75% one shot stops. By comparison the 45 Colt cartridge had 67% one shot stops.
I'd sure like to read those articles. Can you provide references, please?

simonkenton
May 22, 2010, 08:29 AM
I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a .44 round ball.

I have 2 cap and ball pistols for home defense.

Fiv3
May 22, 2010, 08:54 AM
New guy with a related question:o

What kind of load set up would you go with for a cap and ball that is carried for defense or stored loaded and uncapped for defense at a later date.

I mean, what is the best way (even if it costs a few cents more) to keep a cap and ball at the ready, yet safe...without having to go through the hassle of greasing ends of the cylinder?

I am currently considering carrying my 1858 in a shoulder holster for outdoors protection as I don't have a large revolver back up. I'd like to know what kind of loading procedure would allow me to carry it safely, what I can do to make sure it fires reliably without having melted crisco ooze into my holster or getting bore butter all over my clothes? This particular load out wouldn't be for easy of multiple cylinders of firing as if I were shooting at the range. Just 6 safely loaded balls for a just-in-case.

Also, what propellant would be the most stable/safest to carry for such a situation. I'm not really concerned about fired fouling (although long term unfired corrosion would be nice to know about). I'm more concerned about static build up or something of that ilk. Is that even a real worry?

Sorry for all the questions. I've only come to the Dark Side about 2 weeks ago:o

simonkenton
May 22, 2010, 10:05 AM
I keep my cap and ball pistols loaded, and in drawers in my house.
I use 30 grains of fffg black powder, no wad and no sealant on the cap or ball.
In this configuration, I have kept a pistol loaded for 3 years and it fired fine, all five cylinders full power. There was no corrosion in the chambers.

This is in the humid N. Carolina mountains.

For carry in the woods, you might want to seal the balls with beeswax. Beeswax won't melt at normal temps. Make a little ball of beeswax, roll it between your fingers to make it soft, and to make a little "noodle" of beeswax an inch long, and pack that in between the ball and the cylinder.

Black powder keeps indefinitely if stored properly, I do know that some of the subs will deteriorate over time, so I would use black powder.

RemTim
May 22, 2010, 10:05 AM
I thought this would be a good thread for the search engines.
What ever one you shoot best and is the most reliable.
I use two Remington New Armies for bot personal and home, which seems to be the best choice for me so far. I'd like a third c&b revolver. just wanted some expert opinions on which to base my decision. Thinking of something shorter for personal defense. Could chop the barrel off of my ASM Remmy...it is a decent gun.

mykeal
May 22, 2010, 07:24 PM
Loading protocol: powder, lubed felt wad, ball. No grease.

Use a ball of the proper size and caps that fit and chain fires will not be a problem.

Propellant: real black powder, Pyrodex, Triple 7 - all are stable, with real black having legendary long term stability.

Now the lecture:

There is no, repeat, absolutely no good reason to store a bp revolver loaded for any more than a month, and preferably a week. If you're going to use the gun for self defense you absolutely MUST be fully proficient with it. You're betting your life on that gun and your ability to use it - why would you accept anything less than full, top of the line performance from either the gun or yourself? And how in the world can you be proficient if you haven't fired the gun even once in several months? The simple fact is you can't.

Take the time to find an accurate, reliable load and shoot it once a week at least Get proficient, to where you can place your shots where you want them every time, and stay that way with frequent practice. If you don't, then you're just playing cowboy and you're not serious about using the gun for self defense.

Delmar
May 22, 2010, 08:11 PM
I never have a problem with the caps jamming up on my 58 but have had some problems with this on my 51.

Hawg Haggen
May 22, 2010, 08:18 PM
I never have a problem with the caps jamming up on my 58 but have had some problems with this on my 51.

Raise muzzle and tilt to right slightly before cocking. it may not totally stop cap jams because Colt has a lighter hammer strike but will greatly reduce them.

w_houle
May 22, 2010, 08:50 PM
Well... whatever route you choose, I would suggest manually manhandling some before you you hang your hat on it. Definitely go with steel though.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4125/1851c.jpg

RemTim
May 22, 2010, 09:13 PM
Mykeal, your lecture for the day is well received.:)
I do pretty well keeping two revolvers shot frequently but need to spend even more time with them.
Of course, please continue with the recommendations guys. I realize I am inexperienced and could have made the wrong choice.I had originally thought about the 1851 & 1860 Colts for instance.
It would be a slow transition for me, I have never owned anything but the Remmy.
Until I get comfortable and proficient with another style, I will still follow the words of another esteemed black powder sage:
What ever one you shoot best and is the most reliable.

Hardy
May 22, 2010, 09:43 PM
ubertie 1861 navy is my fav. Keep the gun in a holster or on something sloping it downward or your caps will oil and not fire. I take the caps off every morning and clear the nipples with a broken guitar string. I examine the chambers to make sure the balls are still seated properly and check the caps. If the green is gone they won't fire.
WBH

arcticap
May 22, 2010, 10:24 PM
I'd sure like to read those articles. Can you provide references, please?

See post #62, the Colt & Remington Army .44's have a 1 shot stop rating of 75%.
The whole thread pertains to using c&b's for home defense.

BP for HD?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=382999&highlight=one+shot+stop&page=3

simonkenton
May 22, 2010, 10:38 PM
mykeal:
Thanks for the repeated lectures on how and when cap and ball pistols should be fired.
But, unless you received your information on Mt. Sinai, engraved on marble tablets by God, your info is no better than mine.

I will shoot my pistols when and how I want.

Smokin_Gun
May 22, 2010, 11:48 PM
Myself I'd prefer to use a Remington .44 C&B with 30gr of Holy Black and a dry loaded Round Ball no wads, lube pills, cereal, or cooking fat.(for long term storage). If I had only the one Remington to practice with, which ain't the case, I'd use the extra cylinder I would buy to practice with and keep the defence cylinder loaded. And I have and kept a C&B cyl. loaded for a year and fired it off without any difficuly.
That's how you keep a C&B loaded and be proficient with it at the same time...or have two of the same mfg. Rems set up to shoot identically. Like two E.N. Santa Barbaras, two ASP's, two Piettas, two Uberti, two ASM's...but the easiest and cheapest would be two C&B cylinders...and the Remington .44's are the easiest to switch cylinders in and most will hold 40gr of Black Powder by Volume.
Just ask the Preacher in Pale Rider :O)

DustyBottoms
May 22, 2010, 11:53 PM
I take the caps off every morning and clear the nipples with a broken guitar string.

Nice!
A man after my own heart.
Broken guitar strings are the best thing since... well...
Guitar strings!

Hardy
May 23, 2010, 12:08 AM
Broken guitar strings are the best thing since... well...
Guitar strings!

Dusty, when yu string up a guitar you snap off the ends and you got 6 different gauges of excess strings. Also, if you get too heavy on AC/DC you might pop one. Anyway, you throw them away or use em for nipple cleaning.

DustyBottoms
May 23, 2010, 12:17 AM
Dusty, when yu string up a guitar you snap off the ends and you got 6 different gauges of excess strings.

Oh, you don't have to tell me, Hardy!
I've been playing guitar for 20 years - I've got a toolbox FULL of broken guitar string!
You have no idea how handy they are until you have a bunch of the stuff layin' around.
I use 'em for all sorts of stuff...
Most notably, cleaning my airbrushes.
Now I have another use for 'em! :D

RemTim
May 23, 2010, 12:47 AM
If I had only the one Remington to practice with,
i have to have two, so if can comfortably relax;.and,enjoy tearing one down and playing with it, knowing I have the other one a few inches away, just in case i need it, They are both Uberti Remmies so the cylinders swap out. I have an ASM that I have been trying to find a good home for. Thought about keeping it, chopping the barrel, replacing the mainspring with a stiff Uberti mainspring and getting an extra cylinder, but really, I'd rather find another Uberti and some extra cylinders, or some extra cylinders anyway. I like the idea of keeping a defense load in one cylinder, and a practice load in the other. When I had one Uberti, I started to get another cylinder instead of another Uberti...but the fever was so bad, I couldn't help myself.

mykeal
May 23, 2010, 06:48 AM
See post #62, the Colt & Remington Army .44's have a 1 shot stop rating of 75%.
The whole thread pertains to using c&b's for home defense.

BP for HD?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ot+stop&page=3
Thanks, I'll follow that up at the local library. I made an attempt last November but got sidetracked, so thanks for the reminder. Lots of numbers but no info on how the testing was conducted. This is a controversial area. I have no doubt that our black powder guns can do the job, but just like their smokeless counterparts the details are important.

RemTim
May 23, 2010, 09:31 AM
mykeal:
Thanks for the repeated lectures on how and when cap and ball pistols should be fired.
But, unless you received your information on Mt. Sinai, engraved on marble tablets by God, your info is no better than mine.

Just so you know, I was there when Mykeal came down from the mountain, with the tablets and a rods of iron that spewed fire, brimstone and smoke...a religious experience, indeed.:D...then we went back to Eygpt to settle an old dispute with the powers that were..:D
The best I can recall, delicacy wasn't one of his strengths back then...but a strong leader he was.:D:D:D

RemTim
May 23, 2010, 10:05 AM
Black powder keeps indefinitely if stored properly, I do know that some of the subs will deteriorate over time, so I would use black powder.
Simondenton, do you buy your bp locally or make you own? I am near Fayetteville and can't find anything but the subs.

Hawg Haggen
May 23, 2010, 10:06 AM
The best I can recall, delicacy wasn't one of his strengths back then.

Delicacy isn't a strong point for a lot of us old timers that have been around many forums for awhile. Yeah Mykeal is a little anal about safety but I suppose we all have something we're anal about. I can think of worse things to be anal about. I think everybody should be safe and responsible but not to the point where it ceases to be fun because you're too worried about it.

RemTim
May 23, 2010, 10:13 AM
Delicacy isn't a strong point for a lot of us old timers that have been around many forums for awhile. .
Delicacy is a hard to master trait for pups like myself too, Hawg

andrewstorm
May 23, 2010, 11:07 AM
I have a n a a companion under my pillow, r o a under the bed,2 50 cal in line rifles in the corner,another roa in the droor,and just like josey wales another gun perps wont know about till its to late.:cool:

Hawg Haggen
May 23, 2010, 11:17 AM
Delicacy is a hard to master trait for pups like myself too, Hawg

Methinks you've been around more than you're admitting.:D

RemTim
May 23, 2010, 12:11 PM
Methinks you've been around more than you're admitting.
Nope. But I do consider myself to be a fast learner.http://www.pic4ever.com/images/cowboypistol.gif

Hardy
May 23, 2010, 08:50 PM
Dusty, and others. I do believe the nipple channels being cleaned and cleared is the most essential when needing this gun if you have to. Pray not! The 26 gauge nichol wrap guitar string that can be bought for next to nothing in any music shop will work !!!!

Fiv3
May 24, 2010, 08:28 AM
Thanks for the info guys. It is much appreciated:o

Just for some clarification, I DO plan on shooting my 1858 often. However, at the range I will probably do the same kinds of foul reducing experimentation that most try. The name of the game at that point will be trouble-free (or as trouble free as possible) extended shooting. Lubes, wads, wiping down the frame after each 6 shots, etc.

For a woods backup, I'm just thinking about the easiest and cleanest way to pack the revolver loaded and at the ready for a week or so.

Thanks for all the tips:)

RemTim
May 24, 2010, 08:59 AM
Thank you for your time here guys. One thing is for sure. I am going expand my horizons a bit and add a Colt to add to my arsenal. I like them all and will probably end up with one of each sooner or later........just don't tell anyone, Besides I am afraid the administrators here will not let change my user name and well, I just don't want the word to get out.:D

Smokin_Gun
May 24, 2010, 12:13 PM
RemTim your secret is safe with me...us Rem men stick together. Even though we may have a lot of Colts and others too :O)

mykeal
May 24, 2010, 06:20 PM
us Rem men stick together.
I knew it. They travel in packs.

Dino.
May 24, 2010, 07:00 PM
Don't get me wrong, I love BP guns....
But for self-defense, you're better off using one as a club. :D

Slamfire
May 24, 2010, 07:01 PM
Third Model Dragoon for home.

It takes 50 grains of Black powder, most powerful next to a Walker, but the ram rod won't drop and jam the cylinders which frequently happens with Walkers.

It also makes a great club. Extremely heavy revolver.

Otherwise a 1858 Remington. Caps are less likely to jam the action in a Remington. When you shoot a Colt you better practice a wrist flip during cocking. You want the busted cap to fall away from the hammer/frame recess. I have had lots of caps fall between the hammer and frame which jams the revolver.

The Remington is a better design than any of the Colt blackpowder pistols: less parts, solid frame, angled cap seats, drift adjustable front sight.

Gatofeo
May 24, 2010, 09:09 PM
Well, I checked out those threads to earlier posts.


The claim was made that Elmer Keith witnessed someone, or people, shot with a cap and ball revolver.
As far as I know, and I've been reading him for 40 years, Elmer Keith never once witnessed anyone shot with a cap and ball revolver.
He knew Civil War veterans who said the round ball was a more effective anti-human projectile, compared to the issued conical bullets, but if Elmer ever witnessed someone shot with one, darned if I can find it.

Keith's quote, misquoted in the earlier posts is, "For its size and weight nothing is so deadly as the round ball of pure lead when driven at fairly good velocity. Maximum loads give these slugs fairly high velocity from a 7-1/2 inch barrel gun. Both Major R.E. Stratton and Samuel H. Fletcher told me the .36 Navy with full loads was a far better man killer than any .38 Special they had ever seen used in gun fights."
Source: "Sixguns" by Elmer Keith, Bonanza Books, Copyright 1961, p. 211.

Now, let's examine that famous quote:
"For its size and weight ..."
Most bullets weigh more than a round ball. The .36 ball ranges from 80 to 84 grains, depending upon diameter.
Ballistically, the Navy .36 is equivalent to the .380 ACP with its 95 grain jacketed bullet at 1,000 fps (maximum handload, which I've chronographed myself).

Maximum velocity with the .36 Navy is about 1,000 feet per second, with a ball over 26 to 27 grains of Goex FFFG black powder, no felt wad under it. I've chronographed my own Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy many times. The chamber will only hold 26 to 27 grs and leave enough room to seat the ball below flush.

Stratton and Fletcher, to which Keith refers, were Civil War veterans. I'm unsure when they died, but they likely made this statement before the advent of factory loads using the more efficient semi-wadcutter bullet, or the introduction of the .38 Special High-Speed cartridge (.38/44) that pushed a 158 gr. lead bullet at 1,000 fps.
When Stratton and Fletcher spoke, the only two loads commercially available (remember, there were few reloaders in the 1920s and 1930s) were the 158 gr. lead roundnose and the 148 or 158 gr. lead wadcutter.

From its inception in 1899, the.38 Special typically used a 158 gr. lead roundnosed bullet -- a notoriously poor manstopper against anyone who was hopped-up on dope, drunk or fueled by adrenaline (and let's face it, very few combatants are cool, calm and collected).

Today, with improved bullets, the .38 Special is undoubtedly a far better killer than it once was.

Contrary to an earlier cited post, the U.S. military did NOT use .44 cap and ball revolvers in the Philippines after their .38 Long Colt revolvers failed. Thousands of Colt Single Action Army .45s were pulled from storage and shipped to the Philippines.
Presumably, the load they used was the Army's standard load for the .45 rimmed cartridge: 230 gr. roundnose lead bullet over 28 grains of FFFG black powder, for about 700 fps.
The oft-quoted 250 to 255 gr. lead bullet over 40 grs. of black powder was a civilian load. The military load used a shorter case, so it could be used in the Smith & Wesson Schofield, which had a shorter cylinder than the Colt revolver.
Sources:
Cartridges of the World, 8th edition, p. 270.
U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns by Charles R. Suydam, pps. 226-229.

I was interested to see that report from the 1998 issue of Handguns, that listed the relative stopping power of cap and ball sixguns.
"Stopping power" has been argued about, and formulated, for well over 100 years. A lakeful of ballistic gelatin has been shot.
Yet, it's all educated guesswork. Judging how a person will react when shot -- and creating a percentage of success -- is folly, in my estimation.
Some handguns have a pretty good track record: the .45 ACP and .357 Magnum at maximum velocity with a bullet of 150 grains or more come to mind. Yet, I don't believe you can ascribe a percentage of success to any cartridge; there are just too many variables in individuals.

Finally, I'd never carry a cap and ball revolver for self defense. They are simply too unreliable, regardless of the pains you take to ensure reliability. They were replaced by cartridge guns for a good reason.
Now, if it's all I had, and I were forced to use a cap and ball to defend my life, I'd use it. But when I go into gang-ridden Salt Lake City, my reliable Walther PPK, Kimber 1911 .45, Browning Hi-Power 9mm or Smith & Wesson .38 Special snubnose go with me.

As for people being more civil if a bunch of people started walking around wearing old sixguns, Bowie knives and the like -- I don't believe it. I believe there would be far more gunfights because of challenges to egos.
I've had a concealed weapon permit since 1979. I'd never carry in the open; you're just inviting some testosterone-fueled jackleg to challenge you with, "You think you're so tough with that gun? Bring it on!" as he whips out his own (illegally carried) gun.

If you're going to carry a sidearm, keep it hidden. Keep your mouth shut about it. Don't display it or pull it out unless you are absolutely certain that your life, or the life of someone else, is in danger.

I've been shooting cap and ball sixguns since about 1970.
Carry one for self defense? Not as long as I've got a good cartridge gun.
At the worst possible moment, the cap and ball revolver will probably fail you.
As Robert Service wrote: "The gods must have their laughter."

RemTim
May 24, 2010, 09:18 PM
Don't get me wrong, I love BP guns....
But for self-defense, you're better off using one as a club. Rather be clubbed with a 44 caliber than shot with it. Is it like taking a toy gun to a gun fight? The guns are not modern, but they work just as good today as when they were introduced 150 years ago.And when the cylinder is empty, use it as a club.
IMHO, black powder guns don't get the respect they deserve, since you can't just load bullets in it. Try getting shot with one and see if you are any less dead than if you had had the honor of getting your ass blown away by a more modern firearm. Geez. give me a break.:rolleyes:
My, friend, if you are so sure that a black powder 44 is such a timid, toy gun, try standing in front of one like these at the moment the hammer busts a cap on a properly loaded cylinder full of lead and powder::D:D:D In your final moments, you may have a change of conviction............http://www.pic4ever.com/images/cowboypistol.gif
http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy205/ezcomputertips/IMG_0186.jpg

Smokin_Gun
May 24, 2010, 10:15 PM
Don't get me wrong, I love BP guns....
But for self-defense, you're better off using one as a club.

Do you realize that 45/70 is a BP load?
Along with .45Colt, .44Colt, .44S&W, 45Schofield, 38Colt, 38spl, 50/70, 45/110... along with full cylinders or muzzle loaders & shotgun loads of Black Powder up to and beyond .75" cal. or 10ga, 8ga in chambers with a ball/balls or bullet on top?:cool:
Try to ask anyone that has come to my house with a club if they stayed... ;)

RemTim
May 24, 2010, 10:28 PM
You said it Smokin_Gun!!:D

sltm1
May 24, 2010, 10:29 PM
Just for the record, Mykeal, I like the way your brain works !

RemTim
May 24, 2010, 10:55 PM
I knew it. They travel in packs.
Ya darn tootin' I got your back, Smokin_Gun!!!http://www.pic4ever.com/images/cowboypistol.gif

then you're just playing cowboy and you're not serious about using the gun for self defense.But Mykeal, I wanna be a cowboy,baby!!!http://www.pic4ever.com/images/cowboypistol.gif

Smokin_Gun
May 24, 2010, 11:44 PM
I knew it. They travel in packs.

Aww Mykeal ... I know you are one of us, go on and say it!

Will this help? The ROA is in my opinion one the the Best 20th Century Original Cap and Ball or Converted Black Powder Revs made... :cool:
Well I tried :rolleyes:

RemTim
May 24, 2010, 11:56 PM
Aww Mykeal ... I know you are one of us, go on and say it!
Well, you heard em', fess up!!:rolleyes:

suzukibruce
May 25, 2010, 12:49 AM
Gatofeo, we open carry here, there is no o.k. corral shootouts, we don't have duels on main street, no one trys to test someone elses "manlihood". we dont carry because we want to look tough or cool or trendy, we carry to stay at the top of the food chain. there is alot of wilderness here and i have yet to meet a domesticated bear, coyote, or mountain lion when fishing or getting my mail. someone just shot a bear a week ago in their back yard less than 1/4 mile from me and it just laughed at the .380 it was shot with and ran away. once in december, 3 times in january and twice in february they spotted coyote in town. i saw one in my yard in feb. i don't have the money to pay for mega mag for carry, i own a few .32 and .38 iver johnsons and they are not viable for bear, i can't afford anything other than what i choose to carry so if you don't think i should carry a .44 black powder then go buy me a 500 mag. and if you think i should only ccw carry, pay for the permit and find a holster i can hide it in because my "ultimate ccw" holster won't cut it. if i wanted to be "cool", i be carryin' a nickle plated nine, yo!

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 12:59 AM
The Remmy guys are gathering. By the way, Suzuki Bruce. I believe you own one of those toy 44's like mine. Do you think beating someone up side the head with it will do more damage than if you just, well, blow them away instead?

suzukibruce
May 25, 2010, 01:15 AM
i dont know, in '96 i got my head wacked with a baseball bat, in '99 a buddy of mine was shot with vaquero in .45 colt.... he wears a colostomy bag now, i have a scar.... you decide...lol... i think a 2lb gun swung at my head is easier to dodge then a 250grain ball of hot lead traveling at 700 fps aspecially with 5 buddies following it.... now i do agree on the reliability issue of a black powder revolver, if one chamber doesnt go off the next probably will, now if you get a dud in a semiauto....

bang! bang! click! click! click! "oh crap, dud round, uh, uh, uh, rack slide... uhh, its stuck, broken shell? no! sove pipe? what? what is goign on... uh, uh, uh... now what do i do?? POW! lights out....you fail.... glock 17

bang! bang! click! bang! bang! bang!--- you win! -1858 remmy


you cannot beat the accuracy power and reliability of a revolver... they will kill now just as well as they did 150 years ago and the powders are better, the primers are better, the ball is better the guns are better. the reason for the world going to cased ammo is the same reason McDonalds stays in business.. it's quicker and easier...

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 01:28 AM
I have one toy gun for each hand, i pity the fool who thinks they won't send him to hell.

suzukibruce
May 25, 2010, 01:28 AM
and actually tim, beating someone to death with a gun would probably just plain make me feel better then shooting them, you get more of the feel for the kill that way...

but then again standing over mr perp. saying to him "you feel that slug in you? i loaded that personally and especially for you. doesn't that make you feel special? now make sure you keep pressure on that, you'll bleed to death slower that way so you'll get to enjoy it more...

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 01:31 AM
You beat them all you want, I'll take my chances with the triggers. :D

but then again standing over mr perp. saying to him "you feel that slug in you? i loaded that personally and especially for you. doesn't that make you feel special? now make sure you keep pressure on that, you'll bleed to death slower that way so you'll get to enjoy it more...
But Bruce, that old style gun might not kill a modern day man....better get a club.:D

suzukibruce
May 25, 2010, 01:42 AM
40 grains of triple 7 powder finely ground behind a 250 grain lead ball traveling at 700+ fps from an 8" barrel... sure it won't... but you arent taking into consideration the fact that most americans are fat so it may not make it to the vitals through all the blubber....

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 01:46 AM
. but you arent taking into consideration the fact that most americans are fat so it may not make it to the vitals through all the blubber....


Don't get me wrong, I love BP guns....
But for self-defense, you're better off using one as a club.
Hmmmmmmmmmm..................................

suzukibruce
May 25, 2010, 01:49 AM
oh i see what you are getting at... modern man is tougher than the men that lived off the land 150 years ago, that explains why the gun manufactures keep coming out with these mega guns... i guess it started with the .357 and.44 mags then the 50 AE and when that was no longer effective at fat penetration they made the .454 casul, when that stopped working we got the .460 and .500 mags... oh i see. i get it because the 45lc was designed to mimic the black powder .44 loads then the .45 acp came out to mimic the .45lc and as people got lazier and fatter the guns had to evolve too.... oh i get it now...

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 01:50 AM
Yea, I am going to sell my Remmies and buy two baseball bats:D

suzukibruce
May 25, 2010, 01:52 AM
i wonder... what about a conversion to make the remmy dbl action? i was told a long time ago that remington did do the 1858 in double action but only made a handful....

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 01:54 AM
I never heard of that but it would be nice to have double action, i might have an effective defense against a modern bad guy.....:D

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 06:56 AM
But for self-defense, you're better off using one as a club. No offense to you, my friend, but that is an interesting philosophy you have there, :rolleyes:but I feel somewhat different about the use of my guns. Allow me to further explain my feelings on such words of wisdom:
Bam! Bam!,........Bam! Bam!-Bam Bam Rubble
BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!-the two guns of Remington Tim:cool:
Bam!!Bam!! Dead!!!Dead!!http://www.pic4ever.com/images/flat.gif Bam!!Bam!! DEAD!!DEAD!!http://www.pic4ever.com/images/flat.gif
......................................................................................................................................... -Bam Bam Rubble and/or any misguided idiot with the faulty intelligence to think they are toys for Bam Bam to play with and in possession of enough irrational judgment to challenge their authenticity as a formidable weapon by forcing me to choose whether to use them as a club or for the purpose they were designed for. Any questions?? Did I effectively make my point?? http://www.pic4ever.com/images/cowboypistol.gif

suzukibruce
May 25, 2010, 10:40 AM
here is a little history lesson, jesse james was shot with a glock, in the shootout at the o.k. corral, wyatt earp carried a .357 sig, doc holiday carried a benelli m4, morgan and virgil earp both had .50 desert eagles and annie oakly used a steyer aug. and during both the revolutionary and civil wars the soldiers carried the venerable M-16A3 and SAW...

Dino.
May 25, 2010, 10:44 AM
Rather be clubbed with a 44 caliber than shot with it. Is it like taking a toy gun to a gun fight? The guns are not modern, but they work just as good today as when they were introduced 150 years ago.And when the cylinder is empty, use it as a club.
IMHO, black powder guns don't get the respect they deserve, since you can't just load bullets in it. Try getting shot with one and see if you are any less dead than if you had had the honor of getting your ass blown away by a more modern firearm. Geez. give me a break.
My, friend, if you are so sure that a black powder 44 is such a timid, toy gun, try standing in front of one like these at the moment the hammer busts a cap on a properly loaded cylinder full of lead and powder: In your final moments, you may have a change of conviction............

1) I NEVER said that BP guns were "toys". :rolleyes:

2) If a BP gun is all you have for self-defense, than I guess it's better than nothing, still ... if your concern is self-defense, most will agree that there are MUCH better options.

3) It's true that BP guns work "just as good" today as they did 150 years ago ... and so does a knife or a rock to the head. That doesn't necessarily mean it would be my preference for self-defense. :rolleyes:

To each his own, I guess. ;)

Hardcase
May 25, 2010, 11:07 AM
The Remmy guys are gathering. By the way, Suzuki Bruce. I believe you own one of those toy 44's like mine. Do you think beating someone up side the head with it will do more damage than if you just, well, blow them away instead?

http://www.imfdb.org/images/8/89/AppaloosaSAA-3.jpg

"Colt makes a heavy firearm, that's a fact."

It believe that a Remington is equally massive.

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 11:32 AM
1) I NEVER said that BP guns were "toys". Nope, but sticks are.:p It is all in good fun my friend.;) We are here to learn and share.:) We can fun every once in a while.:D.

I have to get back to ya'll in in few minutes. I felt so bad for Bam Bam:(, that I am prompted to write his eulogy, It must be properly worded for such a historical icon.:D

Dino.
May 25, 2010, 11:49 AM
Nope, but sticks are.

... and just as effective for self-defense. :D

Just kidding, Tim.
In all seriousness, the best weapon for self-defense would be that in which you're most proficient. For some, that may be in fact a BP handgun. But it's just been my experience that BP handguns are much more prone to mis-fires than modern cartirdge handguns, thus less reliable.

That may not be a big deal when at the range or hunting, but it's quite different when my a$$ is on the line. ;)

Rifleman1776
May 25, 2010, 11:49 AM
Muzzle loaders, including C&B revolvers, have been my main shooting passion for more than 40 years. A clean revolver will remain firable indefinitely. It is the residue of burned black powder that is corrosive. A ball from a c&b revolver is not the 'stopper' we envision in these modern times for something like home defense. Death from those under-powdered (by today's standards) guns came from bleed outs and infection. That is why even the teensy .31 cal. revolvers were so popular. The bad guys really did not want to die a slow, painful and lingering death. Those little pistols were as psychologically intimidating as a .44 mag. would be today.
But, if I had to make a choice, it would be a LeMat revolver and my first shot at the intruder would be from the 20 gauge barrel

DustyBottoms
May 25, 2010, 12:02 PM
"Colt makes a heavy firearm, that's a fact."

+1 Appaloosa!

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 12:07 PM
Here goes my tribute to our fallen friend Bam Bam...............

Good bye, Bam Bam
I am going to miss Bam Bam Rubble,
poor fella got into trouble,
by Dino's advice,
wrath he did entice,
give 'em a rock to the head,
now poor Bam Bam is dead.
If some of you guys are single,
Pebbles is a real cutie to dingle.
A son in law to Fred,
because of a failed rock to the head.
When you are in pleasure so divine,
be sure to thank your comrade Dino at the Firing Line.
Guys, feel free to join in,
saying good bye to a friend.
I'm having writer's block,
because of Bam Bam's rock.

Dino, I thank you for you help and advice, as always. I just love giggling.:D

BP handguns are much more prone to mis-fires than modern cartirdge handguns, thus less reliable. A variable factor dependent on the amount of love, care and devotion given to it by its owner.
Mine ain't failed yet.
What about your guns?:cool::cool:
But it's just been my experience that BP handguns are much more prone to mis-fires than modern cartirdge handguns, thus less reliable.
Sounds like you don't love them very much or perhaps you are doing something wrong..;)
Yer move, varmit!!!http://www.pic4ever.com/images/cowboypistol.gif

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 12:57 PM
In all seriousness, I hope everyone one here enjoys this place as much as I do. You guys are a riot!!!:D
My wife just told me the were all a bunch of old men sitting around talking s$!@ and arguing. I know we ain't all old, just me.:D But anyway, I sure enjoy your company, We are all brothers not matter what your preferred weapon is.
How can we learn if we don't pick a fight every once in while in our pursuit of black powder perfection?:confused:

Dino.
May 25, 2010, 01:29 PM
Quote:
BP handguns are much more prone to mis-fires than modern cartirdge handguns, thus less reliable.

A variable factor dependent on the amount of love, care and devotion given to it by its owner.
Mine ain't failed yet.
What about your guns?

Hmm, so all I have to do is declare my love, care, and devotion, and my gun will miraculously become reliable? ... Sorry, I'm not buying it. It didn't work with my first wife, I seriously doubt it'll work with my gun. :D


Quote:
But it's just been my experience that BP handguns are much more prone to mis-fires than modern cartirdge handguns, thus less reliable.

Sounds like you don't love them very much or perhaps you are doing something wrong..
Yer move, varmit!!!

Oh, I do love them!
I love how they look and they're loads of fun to shoot, but at the end of the day, guns are tools and well ... some tools are just better than others for certain jobs. ;)

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 01:34 PM
I need some help here, guys!!:o

Yea but I'll take my Remmies over your rock any day of the weeK!!!http://www.pic4ever.com/images/cowboypistol.gif
and Bam Bam is gone gone because you told him to git a rock and stick and come kick my ass!! Varmit!!!http://www.pic4ever.com/images/cowboypistol.gif
How can you live with yourself!!:( I know what it is, you were after Pebbles!!:D

Dino.
May 25, 2010, 01:42 PM
I need some help here, guys!!

That's exactly what you're gonna say with a BP gun as your self-defense weapon of choice. LMAO!!! :D

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 01:45 PM
That's kinda like like taking things waaaaay out of context.http://www.pic4ever.com/images/cowboypistol.gif

I need some help here, guys!!
Never mind, boys. His ass is mine!!!
http://www.pic4ever.com/images/cowboypistol.gif

Dino.
May 25, 2010, 02:04 PM
Never mind, boys. His ass is mine!!!

You got mice in your pocket? :D

Seriously Tim ... even Wild Bill Hickok knew that black powder had it's limitations.
And that was 150 years ago. :p

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 02:05 PM
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........................http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af164/RemTim/chup1.jpg

suzukibruce
May 25, 2010, 02:14 PM
2 points here dino

1. it is a proven fact that revolvers are more reliable than autos, more accurate and more powerful. a black powder revolver loaded properly and well maintained will fire just as reliably as any other revolver.

2. the .45 long colt was a direct copy of the .44 cal black powder c&b load. same powder and ballistics as a cap and ball just faster on the reload. also it is a fact that the .45acp was designed to mimic the ballistics of the 45lc cart. so the .44 (.454) cap and ball is no less effective as a man stopper than the .45acp. thats a fact, jack. look it up...

do some ballistics research before you go spouting off your opinions. i have had several .45 acp pistols and the black powder has always been more accurate and reliable than any one of them. and if 6 .454 lead balls doesn't stop mr. perp, i doubt 7 .45acp will...

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 02:15 PM
. it is a proven fact that revolvers are more reliable than autos, more accurate and more powerful. a black powder revolver loaded properly and well maintained will fire just as reliably as any other revolver.

2. the .45 long colt was a direct copy of the .44 cal black powder c&b load. same powder and ballistics as a cap and ball just faster on the reload. also it is a fact that the .45acp was designed to mimic the ballistics of the 45lc cart. so the .44 (.454) cap and ball is no less effective as a man stopper than the .45acp. thats a fact, jack. look it up...

do some ballistics research before you go spouting off your opinions. i have had several .45 acp pistols and the black powder has always been more accurate and reliable than any one of them. and if 6 .454 lead balls doesn't stop mr. perp, i doubt 7 .45acp will...
What he said.:p

Forklift
May 25, 2010, 02:17 PM
It just so happens that a reliability thread was just posted at TGO:

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/curio-relics-black-powder/40464-reliability-percussion-revolver.html#post530156

I've read on several other forums where some people have said they wouldn't trust a Colt or Remington black powder revolver for anything past being an amusing range toy, due to them being "unreliable".

I have one such gun, a Remington 1858 New Army clone, that I figure some of you might have an interest in hearing about, regarding that.

It's an Uberti, with a 5 - 1/2 inch barrel, that I've had for a few years now. I've tuned it up, "aged" the finish, and pretty much keep it as my house and yard gun. I also keep it loaded at all times, sometimes for 4 or 5 months between firings.

Knowing how y'all love pics, here it is:

I have to say, the only time this gun hasn't fired was once when I was experimenting with various ways of sealing the caps, to waterproof the thing. Managed to contaminate the primers and had to re-cap to get it to fire. Oh well, no big deal. In the end, I discovered it didn't need sealing, unless I planned on going swimming with it. ( I don't. )

Yesterday I happened to remember that I hadn't had the thing out in a while, so I went and got it from it's usual resting place... and discovered that all the rain and humidity here lately had done some ugliness.

There was rust in the bolt notches, along the back of the frame beside the hammer... and the caps were all turning a nice shade of green. ( This color --> )

I was sure it wasn't going to fire, or at best, produce a squib if it did go off.

Well, upon taking it outside and very slowly and carefully pulling the trigger on each chamber, every round fired. There was no difference in how it acted, after sitting for 2 or 3 months, and turning all sorts of interesting colors, than if I had just loaded it.

And here's the funny part: It wasn't even loaded with real BP, or even pyrodex. I last loaded it with APP... American Pioneer Powder. A powder substitute that's notorious for sucking water out of the air. And it was all loaded without lube, wads, patches or sealants. Nothing more than powder, caps and balls.

So I have to say if anybody has ever doubted the reliability of a percussion gun... Don't. If they're loaded even halfway right, and aren't kept in a bucket of water, they'll go "bang" just as readily as any modern gun will, no matter how long they've been sitting.

Oh, and after cleaning up all the rust and grunge, mine is reloaded and back in it's usual spot.

I'll have to try and remember to check it a little more frequently, but I know that even if I don't, it'll still do it's job when I need it to.

J.

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 02:23 PM
http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af164/RemTim/chup1.jpgMan, I'm glad some big dogs showed up that are in their right mind.:D

us Rem men stick together. Black powder people do too!!!.:D

Dino.
May 25, 2010, 02:53 PM
2 points here dino

1. it is a proven fact that revolvers are more reliable than autos, more accurate and more powerful. a black powder revolver loaded properly and well maintained will fire just as reliably as any other revolver.

2. the .45 long colt was a direct copy of the .44 cal black powder c&b load. same powder and ballistics as a cap and ball just faster on the reload. also it is a fact that the .45acp was designed to mimic the ballistics of the 45lc cart. so the .44 (.454) cap and ball is no less effective as a man stopper than the .45acp. thats a fact, jack. look it up...

do some ballistics research before you go spouting off your opinions. i have had several .45 acp pistols and the black powder has always been more accurate and reliable than any one of them. and if 6 .454 lead balls doesn't stop mr. perp, i doubt 7 .45acp will...

1) Nobody said anything about semi-autos vs. revolvers ...
I guess when someone here disagrees, it's customary to mis-quote them
and/or put words in their mouth? :confused:

2) Your so-called "ballistics research" don't mean jack in a gun that is prone
to mis-fire. And even in the event that luck be on your side and your gun
does actually fire, do you seriously think a lead ball is more effective than
a hollow-point bullet? :rolleyes:

And since you brought up the subject of semi-automatics, let's go
there and discuss capacity ... Would you rather pack FIVE cap and ball
handguns, or one magazine? Let me guess ... you only need one shot,
right? :rolleyes:

As for "spouting off" opinons ...
At least my opinions won't mis-lead people into a false sense
of security in thinking that thier cap and ball handgun is providing them
with adequate protection for the purpose of self-defense. ;)

Dino.
May 25, 2010, 02:56 PM
Black powder people are tools.

Fixed. :D


Kidding!!!! :p

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 03:06 PM
The people here at this black powder forum are divided into two categories in experiences with black powder revolvers, Dino.
There are some have vouched for the reliability of black powder fire\arms, even in comparison with modern firearms and there are people that have trouble with theirs from time to time. You may want to examine what you know, what you are doing and the blackpowder firearms you use and maintain before you continue your misguided assumptions.:cool:

Dino.
May 25, 2010, 03:24 PM
The people here at this black powder forum are divided into two categories in experiences with black powder revolvers, Dino.
There are some have vouched for the reliability of black powder fire arms, even in comparison with modern firearms and there are people that have trouble with theirs from time to time. You may want to examine what you know, what you are doing and the firearms you use and maintain before you continue your misguided assumptions.

I'm sorry Tim, but for self-defense, there are far better choices.
That's not just my "opinion", it's fact.

Anyone who thinks otherwise has either had their head burried in the sand for the past 150 years, or have been terribly mis-guided, or both.

Nuff said.

H.W. French
May 25, 2010, 03:42 PM
I think I've found a compromise...Now if I could only figure out how to keep all the BP fouling from jamming up my 1911.:D

RemTim: I think I saw one of those deep in the Pisgah!

Dino.
May 25, 2010, 03:46 PM
I think I've found a compromise...Now if I could only figure out how to keep all the BP fouling from jamming up my 1911.

Now THAT's funny. :D

DustyBottoms
May 25, 2010, 04:01 PM
even in the event that luck be on your side and your gun
does actually fire

So you're saying that there's a better than 50% chance the gun won't fire?

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing this...
How is there a market for a product that more often than not doesn't work?
Why are there black powder hunting licenses/seasons?
Why do so many different companies even bother making guns or manufacturing black powder and percussion caps?
How did so many men die in 3 days at Gettysburg if nobody's gun was functioning properly and they were lucky to get off a shot?
Pickett's Charge!! Imagine how quick that would have been over if the Fed's guns had actually worked! :eek:

suzukibruce
May 25, 2010, 04:15 PM
i brought up semi-auto to eleminate you from using them as an example right out of the gate (obviously with you capacity comment THAT didn't work). now there have been several testimonials to the reliability of modern black powder and you continue to spout your b.s.... get a life, move out of your mother's basement and go shoot a gun for once. and if YOUR black powder is "prone to misfires" then maybe YOU are the problem because mine isn't and nor are any of the peoples' i shoot with. also since you want to play the capacity game, give me one 6 round 1858 remington with 1 dud chamber against your 1911 colt with 1 dud round and lets see you stay in the fight while i'm still shooting at you.... i'm done with this thread as tim and i and a few others have posted all the valuable information and you have just spewed your uneducated opinion...

pohill
May 25, 2010, 04:16 PM
Remember, Bill Hickok's life was once saved by a cap not going off.
I have a diary of a local Civil War veteran - it was written from 1876 - 1879. He knew weapons, he loved to hunt, but he had a hard time with caps not going off in his shotgun.
As far as home defense, you gotta think about the smoke and sparks if you fire in a house.
I'd rate a BP revolver at 75 - 80% reliable in a life and death situation, which isn't bad. My Ruger Speed Six 38/357 I'd rate at 99%. Gotta go with the odds. Back in the day, everyone had the same odds, more or less, because they had the same technology.
And you should remember that, even though a cap and ball is not considered a firearm under Federal law and most local laws, once you conceal it, or add a conversion cylinder, everything changes.

Forklift
May 25, 2010, 04:18 PM
:p

gunfacts.com is your friend... doesn't matter how many bullets you pack. Research shows you don't need a bunch, no matter if you're a crack shot or not!

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv250/4klift/facts.jpg

Wobble
May 25, 2010, 05:28 PM
Not sure if anyone has mentioned it but Hickok was said to unload, clean, and reload his pistols every day. Was this a case of undiagnosed 1800's OCD or did his experience tell him he needed to minimize the chance of misfire?

Personally, for self defense I wouldn't use my hands if I could get a stick, or use a stick if I could get a BP pistol, or use a BP pistol if I could get a 1911. I also wouldn't use a horse and buggy if I could get a Porsche 911.

I admit it would be cool to be able to brag about doing away with a bad guy with an "old" gun, that is if I was still around to brag.

Forklift
May 25, 2010, 05:42 PM
Hickok was said to unload, clean, and reload his pistols every day.

Hickock was in the Union army during the Civil War and I'm sure he picked up a cleaning routine because his life depended on his weapon, as do all modern military service personnel. He also was considered an eccentric (heard of the ivory grips?) so it's not far-fetched to think of him as OCD about making his guns work as good as I'm sure he kept them looking.

Hawg Haggen
May 25, 2010, 05:48 PM
I wouldn't feel undergunned or defenseless with one. BTW shooting bp out of a 1911 is a blast.

Smokin_Gun
May 25, 2010, 06:01 PM
Nuff said.

Not quite ... I'll take it that most of this was in jest, and you bein' the Jestor are capable and knowledgable enough to handle a Black Powder hangun with a C&B or a Cartridge in it...ya see they is both Revolvers the utilize Holy Black as a propellent.
But after all the funnin' I just finnished reading I can tell that you just may not be BP Rev educated enough with BP Revs to feel safe with usin' one for protection. The Rev has to be right before it is usable, jus' like any other hangun...then alot of practice and earned respect of the Rev. Respect is the key word to becoming a good Shootist.
So now you can say "Enough Said" :O) heehee!

pohill
May 25, 2010, 06:18 PM
Smokin Gun brought up a good point, probably the best point - it all comes down to the shooter. You could hand someone a modern, high-tech Cadillac of a gun and they might shoot themselves in the foot. Or you could hand an 1851 Colt Navy .36 to a guy like Hickok and he'll put a roundball in your heart at 75 yds, under fire. It's not the wand, it's the magician.
Good one, Mr S. Gun.

JNewell
May 25, 2010, 06:39 PM
What was the historical bore of the .44 Colts and Remingtons (and others)?

Reading threads like this makes me think that background checks, waiting periods and permits should be required - for computer ownership and use. :rolleyes: ;)

Smokin_Gun
May 25, 2010, 06:52 PM
:) JNewell, now that was funny... I do know that the first Remington Conversion was .46 cal Rimfire cartridge...that's all I got at the moment.
:cool:

JNewell
May 25, 2010, 07:15 PM
Thank you, sir.

I would have ass-u-med that they .44s were actually .429ish rather than .452/.454ish, but I wouldn't have had any basis for that and am betting someone here knows the answer.

Smokin_Gun
May 25, 2010, 07:27 PM
Not positive, but purdy sure them .44Colt were heeled bullets same as the .45 or .46 were. The Conversions that I've seen had had room for 6 chamber straight up no angular degrees to um... Im' sure someone in here can shed a better light ont them Colt carts and conversions than I have done.
I still kick myself for not gettin' Conversion for my Rems in .44Colt/would need heeled boolits, when I had the chance.
I'm workin' on a Gated kirst in 38spl, jus' found loally a box of 158gr .358" hollow base wadcutters for $32 for 500... I wanted to try um first, but that's a pretty good price in lue of Hornady by the 100 or heeled boolits...
What I really want is a Mold for both to use in my Pietta 1861 Navy short barreled .36 cal in .375". The Kirst is .375" chambers and throat...love the gate too.

Hawg Haggen
May 25, 2010, 08:06 PM
What was the historical bore of the .44 Colts and Remingtons (and others)?

If you're talking cartridge it was .427

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 08:21 PM
Don't get me wrong, I love BP guns....
But for self-defense, you're better off using one as a club.

I had to tone down my first post after reading those words, Then I calmed down and remembered what I was here for. I used humorous of a way of expressing myself. I like humor, just in case no one here noticed.
I came into this forum armed with little more than borrowed opinions expressed by guys like you all in this forum. In my amateur effort to put it all together in a fitting pattern, I made statements that offended some. Those who know me here, know I have no problem with humble heartfelt apologies. This is the first time I can say I ain't apologizing for one thing I have said in this thread or how I said it.
For someone to just pop in with a disrespectful remark and nothing to back it up with, I have little I have apology, I will use humor, sarcasm and anything else I can muster up without regret, and if you don't like it, then that's just too bad.
Opinions are always welcome in a debate. Stupid disrespectful sniper remarks are unwarranted. If you are going to rattle your trap, find something to support your babbling. I would like to know what major advantage, other than fast loading ammo, the modern firearm has over black powder firearms that are properly maintained, handled and shot. If you had one, I'm sure you would have shared.

But for self-defense, you're better off using one as a club.
Heard that one before, somewhere in the forum pages. I don't know who said it and do not care. May have been you for all we know, or perhaps you were trying to stimulate a debate; nothing wrong with that as I have used unconventional methods to achieve topic participation here. However, if you are serious, then you are hilarious.
This thread has turned into a rigorous debate in which you have few that shared your position. The majority of these guys know how to get the maximum performance out of their black powder arms where you have difficulty with reliability. Try learning instead of trying to be something you are not. Don't blame the gun, blame yourself.
I learned a lot on this thread, but nothing to support the black powder reliability issue. I got a bonus though, a new signature.............................

RemTim: I think I saw one of those deep in the Pisgah!
If was strapped with these two toy guns, it was me.http://www.pic4ever.com/images/cowboypistol.gif


http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy205/ezcomputertips/IMG_0186.jpg
Does anyone want to throw rocks and raise a stick????????????????????????????????????????? http://www.pic4ever.com/images/cowboypistol.gif
http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af164/RemTim/chup1.jpg

Hardy
May 25, 2010, 08:35 PM
Take a 36 c with 22 or 25 grains of pyro or the real stuff packed w/wad / ball and capped. Stand 30 feet from a solid 1x4 board and fire. Now look at the back of the boad where the bullet exited and say to yourself--"would I be a happy camper if was standing in that spot when the gun was fired!" The only time the gun isn't lethal is when it misfires. Keep it clean, loaded properly and again I reiterate---the nipples have to be cleared!! Use a nickel 26 guage guitar string . The nikel wrapping is rough and probably won't scar the insides but it will scub out excess rust and powder residue. Hell, they had guitars back then---maybe those cowbows used them too:D

w_houle
May 25, 2010, 08:58 PM
I thought the first conversions were to .46 rimfire?

Dino.
May 25, 2010, 09:01 PM
Quote by suzukibruce:
i brought up semi-auto to eleminate you from using them as an example right out of the gate (obviously with you capacity comment THAT didn't work). now there have been several testimonials to the reliability of modern black powder and you continue to spout your b.s.... get a life, move out of your mother's basement and go shoot a gun for once. and if YOUR black powder is "prone to misfires" then maybe YOU are the problem because mine isn't and nor are any of the peoples' i shoot with. also since you want to play the capacity game, give me one 6 round 1858 remington with 1 dud chamber against your 1911 colt with 1 dud round and lets see you stay in the fight while i'm still shooting at you.... i'm done with this thread as tim and i and a few others have posted all the valuable information and you have just spewed your uneducated opinion...

Bruce,
Just based on your personal attacks, it's obvious that I've touched a nerve ...
Sorry about that (not really) :D

I do have "a life" ... a nice one too! I own a nice home, two rental homes, and a nice cabin in West Virginia where I shoot on a regular basis. :)

I understand that this is a black powder forum and I may have upset some by stating the obvious, but you may want to take note of all the others who have reiterated what I've been saying all along. I suppose they all need to "get a life" and "move out of thier mother's basement" as well? :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but your personal attacks clearly show your frustration in attempting to debate a topic where there clearly is no debate. ;)

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 09:18 PM
If you are going to rattle your trap, find something to support your babbling. I would like to know what major advantage, other than fast loading ammo, the modern firearm has over black powder firearms that are properly maintained, handled and shot.We are still awaiting your enlightenment on the subject.:rolleyes:
BTW, I can reload in 10 seconds or so, what about you???:D

II own a nice home, two rental homes, and a nice cabin in West Virginia where I shoot on a regular basis.
Any more credentials??

I guess not. Thanks for the signature; you were my inspiration. Good bye!

Smokin_Gun
May 25, 2010, 09:33 PM
Read down about halfway the article talks about Conversions...they used heeled bullets for both .44Colt and the 38Colt...also the .46 Rem rimmed.

http://www.riverjunction.com/kirst/history.html

It's a good artical and now I see why Walt Kirst made the .44Colt and .45Colt Conversions. And also why Kenny Howell made the 5 Shot Remington .45 Conversion.
The dates of the heeled bullet conversion are in the text.
Good article...

Dino.
May 25, 2010, 09:58 PM
Quote by Gatofeo:
I'd never carry a cap and ball revolver for self defense. They are simply too unreliable, regardless of the pains you take to ensure reliability. They were replaced by cartridge guns for a good reason.

Amen brutha. ;)

Smokin_Gun
May 25, 2010, 10:12 PM
Quote:
Quote by Gatofeo:
I'd never carry a cap and ball revolver for self defense. They are simply too unreliable, regardless of the pains you take to ensure reliability. They were replaced by cartridge guns for a good reason.

Amen brutha.

I'm Smokin_Gun and not anybody else ... I'd use one only because I know how to ... I also respect myself and others that show respect ... including respect for any handgun...I guess it wasn't Nuff said yet after all.
Well before this thread gets shutdown from ill feelings, I end my thoughts and writtings on this matter. Too bad everyone couldn't think about the History Trail that led to the topic and not make another Trail a Tears out of it.
I'm done after ya read the text below this...back to my forum ...See ya's!

Try it my Brother of the gun ... you might change your mind when the need to make Charcol, dig up Sulpher, and make Salt Peter comes. 2012 ain't far away, Nor the new 2nd ammendant changes...
Peace Out:rolleyes:

And you can quote me on all a that... ;)

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 10:26 PM
This a good thread though. I'm done fussing. Peace!!!

Dino.
May 25, 2010, 10:37 PM
I'm not sure what that post was all about, "Smokin_Gun", but there are no "ill feelings" on my part.
I have never personally attacked anyone here by saying things like "get a life" or "move out of your mother's basement".
I've only stated my own personal feelings about using black powder guns for self-defense and those who share my views here have also done so respectfully.
Only a couple who felt that black powder guns are suitable for home defense posted ignorant, immature, and disrespectful responses, which IMO lends absolutely no credibility to the topic of discussion.

Again, my feeling is that shooting black powder is fun and inexpensive, but unfortunately, not as reliable as cartridge guns, thus not making them my first choice for self-defense.

I'm not sure how that statement was interpreted as I "have no life" and "live in my mother's basement", but whatever. :rolleyes:

Moderators, please feel free to close this thread at any time.
I believe it has truly run it's course.

RemTim
May 25, 2010, 10:47 PM
Dino, we take blackpowder seriously. Some of us choose to use them for self defense. It was a spirited debate. Lots of info here. This thread can be considered complete.



Everyone be safe. You too, Dino..

JohnKSa
May 25, 2010, 11:17 PM
For someone to just pop in with a disrespectful remark...It wasn't a disrespectful remark, it was an honest opinion, and I would go so far as to call it an expert opinion based on the source....and nothing to back it up with...The fact that you didn't take the time to find out what it's backed up with doesn't mean there's nothing to back it up.

That's enough for this thread.