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smokepole14
May 17, 2010, 11:57 PM
Ive been wanting to get a conversion cylindar for my pietta made 58 remmy but have some questions. I heard the R&D chambers are at an angle and don't shoot straight, wandering would this ruin the barrel over time. and the kirst shoots out straight but i heard it might take some modification to the gun. which ever one drops in the best without having modification done to the gun is probably the one i want (since i probably will still shoot in bp form). both seem great but was wandering which would be best thanks for all the help.

arcticap
May 18, 2010, 03:16 AM
This thread should give you some idea.

Which Conversion Cylindar

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=523263&highlight=kirst

suzukibruce
May 18, 2010, 04:23 AM
umm arcticap... i think he started that thread...lol

JNewell
May 18, 2010, 11:59 AM
Either are excellent. The slight angle on the R&D will not affect anything. The Kirst was, for me, slower to get back in the gun because it has to be "indexed" with the flat part against the top strap. Also, since firing pins can break (I have never had one break), I'd rather have six than one. Either is an excellent choice, however.

Dino.
May 18, 2010, 01:50 PM
Also, since firing pins can break (I have never had one break), I'd rather have six than one. Either is an excellent choice, however.

Well, with six firing pins, you also have 6x the odds of breaking one. :D

Seriously though, there are good arguements on both sides and ones choice over the other can only be attributed to personal preference.

I personally don't own either, but I have done alot of reading on both the Kirst and the R&D (now operating under the name "Howell").

Just for the record ...
When (or if) they ever become available again, I will be buying the Kirst. ;)

JNewell
May 18, 2010, 02:23 PM
I am probably one of the few people who bought one of each at the same time and tried the simultaneously. I liked the R&D better, but if I could only get a Kirst, I would never look back or think twice about it.

suzukibruce
May 18, 2010, 02:34 PM
yeah dino but you still have 5 cylinders that will go off...unless here is a scenario, cock hammer, click! broken firing pin, cock hammer again, click! dud round, cock hammer again, bang! and again, bang! and again, bang! and again, bang!

now i don't know about you, but i sure as hell don't want to be shot 4 times with and 1858 in .45 lc...lol...

ClemBert
May 18, 2010, 04:01 PM
I pondered the R&D vs Kirst conversion cylinder decision myself about a year ago. However, I was looking for a conversion cylinder for my ROA. I went with the R&D cylinder. My primary reason was because I didn't like the idea of having to align the Kirst backplate during installation. The R&D cylinder is very high quality. I've read enough about the Kirst cylinder to know it is a quality product too. For a 1858 I would definitely go with an R&D as it has 6 cylinders while the Kirst only has 5. I don't think the number of firing pins is an issue either way. From the reviews I've read from owners of the 1858 R&D cylinder the angled cylinders is also a non-issue.

I'm thinking about getting a Kirst cylinder for my Walker. The reason for that is I like Kirst's loading gate solution which means I wouldn't have to worry about backplate alignment every time I installed it.

CajunPowder
May 18, 2010, 09:35 PM
There is a 5-Round R&D/Howell cylinder available now for the 1858 and it is being advertised as the "strongest" conversion cylinder on the market. It has an absolutely straight throw to the forcing cone and into the bore.

One of these is made in REAL stainless steel as well for the stainless Uberti's.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
May 19, 2010, 07:33 AM
That's what mine is in my 1851 44 sheriffs model.

Dino.
May 19, 2010, 10:52 AM
yeah dino but you still have 5 cylinders that will go off...unless here is a scenario, cock hammer, click! broken firing pin, cock hammer again, click! dud round, cock hammer again, bang! and again, bang! and again, bang! and again, bang!

now i don't know about you, but i sure as hell don't want to be shot 4 times with and 1858 in .45 lc...lol...

I get what you're say'n but there's just something about that design that makes me cringe.

Consider the following review I found on the Midway site ...

Super quality manufacturing. Had Trouble with it binding up due to the firing pins jamming against the lower part of the caping port on the gun. Had the gun slightly relieved, now it works flawlessly.

This may in fact be an isolated incident, but it still concerns me.
And though I understand your "scenario" is intentionally extreme, I'd say even one misfire (or broken pin) is not a good thing regardless of how many you have left, but that's just my opinion.

btw ... does anyone know exactly why R&D changed their name to "Howell"?
It may prove irrelevent, but I know of at least one case where they made a design change in one of their conversion cylinders when they changed their name. Coincidence maybe. (?)

Smokin_Gun
May 19, 2010, 08:37 PM
Ken Howell has always been the manufacturer...name was changed due to issues concerning the business end not the product.

Wobble
May 19, 2010, 09:37 PM
Just to add my 2 centavos, I chose the R&D (Howell) for my 1858 and have never regretted it. I can't compare it the Kirst but I can tell you the R&D is a quality product, it worked perfectly out of the box on my Uberti without any modifications, and has given me hours of straight-shooting pleasure at the range.

arcticap
May 19, 2010, 09:51 PM
btw ... does anyone know exactly why R&D changed their name to "Howell"?
It may prove irrelevent, but I know of at least one case where they made a design change in one of their conversion cylinders when they changed their name. Coincidence maybe. (?)

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328487&highlight=bankruptcy

Fiv3
May 20, 2010, 08:29 AM
I have a couple questions regarding conversions:

Does anyone have any experience with the 5 shot R&D in .45 Colt for the Pietta 1858? Do the thicker walls make it stronger regarding kabooms or is it simply a way to cut down on the cant of the bullet into the forcing cone so that it flies straighter? Does it have a safety notch? Not that I would shoot smokeless out of it, but would it handle slightly stouter cowboy loads?

I'm seriously considering getting a conversion for my new Remington as I love the balance, heft, and feel of the gun. However, I'm not a huge fan of packing around a loaded BP unless I'm going to the range. If I'm going to plunk down over $200 on a conversion, I'd like to at least be able to carry it fully loaded. I don't see much point packing around a 6 shooter that I turned into a 5 shooter and can only safely carry 4 live rounds in:rolleyes:

Thanks for any help guys:o

Dino.
May 20, 2010, 09:04 AM
Some scary stuff in this thread ...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328487

The last entry (posted today) basically says all is good but there are/were alot of unhappy customers who claimed poor customer service, poor communication, and extremely long back-logs on service/repairs (up to 4 years in one case).

It was also stated that there were some tragic business and personal issues.
I can certainly sympathize with this, but as a potential customer, I just can't take a chance of sending them a gun and not seeing it for years and/or not being able to get any sort of response (or straight answer) as to the status of work being done.

Unfortunately, there are only TWO manufactures for these conversion cylinders (that I'm aware of) ... Howell (R&D) or Kirst.
I prefer the Kirst but unfortunately, the cylinder I want is supposedly on "backorder" with "no expected delivery date". In all honesty, the feedback I've received from Kirst and distributors make me question whether they will ever be available again. :(

Is anyone aware of any other sources for these conversion cylinders? :confused:

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
May 20, 2010, 11:07 AM
You can carry 5 in the 5 shot cylinders, because it has 10 bolt cut outs so
when you let the hammer down between chambers the bolt is in a cut out
locking the cylinder.

JNewell
May 20, 2010, 12:35 PM
That recent post was me...I don't know the people at R&D from Adam (or Eve), had never done any business at all with them. I bought the two R&D cylinders I've got (and the Kirst which I got rid of) from Brownells. I wasn't aware that there'd been any issues...just called and said "I'm having a fit problem, what are the options?" They said they'd fit it for free and shipped it out, fixed perfectly, the day after they got the cylinder and my ROA. I can only tell you what I know.

Fiv3
May 20, 2010, 12:44 PM
You can carry 5 in the 5 shot cylinders, because it has 10 bolt cut outs so
when you let the hammer down between chambers the bolt is in a cut out
locking the cylinder.

Thanks for the info:)

I was looking at the pics online, and couldn't tell. The chunky well formed safety notches in the 1858 cylinder is one of the main reasons I purchased that particular model:)

Dino.
May 20, 2010, 03:10 PM
That recent post was me...I don't know the people at R&D from Adam (or Eve), had never done any business at all with them. I bought the two R&D cylinders I've got (and the Kirst which I got rid of) from Brownells. I wasn't aware that there'd been any issues...just called and said "I'm having a fit problem, what are the options?" They said they'd fit it for free and shipped it out, fixed perfectly, the day after they got the cylinder and my ROA. I can only tell you what I know.

It wasn't my intent to question the sincerity of your post.
I was just concerned that most of the people who responded to that thread had stated that they received poor service.

I'm glad it worked out for you.
Hopefully, the problems others had were just isolated to the transition period going from "R&D" to "Howell".
I don't know.

JNewell
May 20, 2010, 07:21 PM
No worries, really! - I thought your post was very even in tone and I didn't read any kind of criticism or slam or other negativity into it. I just wanted to try to tie things together, at least as far as my recent experience goes. To be honest, I'm glad I had no idea of the things in that other thread, but the other side is that they treated me extremely well and had no reason to treat me differently from anyone else.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread... :D

Smokin_Gun
May 21, 2010, 12:44 AM
If Ken is makin' a 5 shot .44 Pietta Remington cylinder it's news to me...Walt Kirst makes a 5 shot .44 Konvertor. Ken has always made the Howell or R&D in 6 shot cylinders. Now Ken Howell makes a .45Colt 5 shot for the 1860 Army that I know of that also fits the Pietta 1851 Navy in .44 C&B.
I like the 45Colt Kirst with a loading gate and the R&D or Howell that you remove like in Pale rider to reload.
I have one 38spl/38Colt Kirst Gated Konvertor for a 61' Colt that I'm real happy with the fit and finnish of.
Have an R&D .45Colt Cylinder for a SS ROA that shoots great and ticks like a Swiss Clock... and have one(R&D) also for my Rogers&Spencer that one shoots fanominally.
Anyways that's my $.02 worth...

CajunPowder
May 21, 2010, 01:27 AM
Smokin_Gun:

Thanks for that feedback on the conversion cylinder for the Rogers and Spencer. Of all the revolvers that are a bit like the 1858 New Army, the Rogers and Spencer is my favorite.

The Rogers and Spencer is leading the pack for my second BP purchase after ... a BP rifle ... and errrr ... a colt ... and errrr ... first another 1858.

Man, I gotta have a serious sit down with Santa Claus, yeah?

Fiv3
May 21, 2010, 07:37 AM
SG, here is a pic of the new 5 shot Pietta 1858 by Howell.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/prodimg/RD185845P.jpg

From the website:
This Howell Old West Cartridge Conversion turns your Pietta 44 Caliber 1858 Remington percussion revolver to a five shot 45 Colt caliber. For use in steel frame revolvers only.

Near as I can tell, there is one safety notch ground between the 3 o'clock and 5 o'clock firing pins (as you look at the pic). Looks beefy to me.

CajunPowder
May 21, 2010, 01:57 PM
As near as I can tell, there is also an extra cylinder notch that probably allows you to release the hammer at half-cock into the safety notch ground into the backplate and then the bolt fits in that extra notch on the cylinder as well, they match up I'm guessing.

But that might be a trick of the camera angle as I'm looking at the cylinder notch closest to the background, the rightmost cylinder notch as we look at the picture.

Smokin_Gun
May 22, 2010, 01:58 PM
Thanks for the Info and Pic of that new 5 shot .45Colt conversion for the Rems...Iwonder why he did that? the 6 shot Cylinders worked just fine.
Myself I do not like a 5 shot cylinder as far as clocking and timeing go...I think if I get a new conversion it would be the Kirst for a Rem with the loading gate. The Kirst only holds 5 shots but it is a 6 shot timed cylinder with jus a dead chamber not drilled thru.
I guess actually i don't really like that one as much as i do the Old R&D 6 shot conversion and would rather buy a used R&D with 6 shots than the Kirst or the New Howell 5 shot.
But that's just me and what I prefer...I'm certain that the new Rem Cylinder is more beefy but not by alot and that 1 degree of slanted chambers in the old Convesion R&D ain't nothin' to worry about as they shoot just fine.
I may jus' stick with my R&D 6 shot cly. for my Rogers&Spencer and the ROA 6 shot and be happy.
Thanks for the Info ... and these are just my opinions on what I like, no more & no less :O)

arcticap
May 22, 2010, 06:59 PM
Rems...Iwonder why he did that? the 6 shot Cylinders worked just fine.

My first thought was that the 5 shot cylinder is cheaper to produce. And now they won't be outdone and overlooked because of the 2 degree angle. Since the competition also has a 5 shot too, for Howell it's a win-win I guess. And only those shooters who would really prefer a 6 shot cylinder will have "lost out". :rolleyes:

Smokin_Gun
May 22, 2010, 09:48 PM
The 1 or 2 degree angle as you mentioned it to be don't mean a dang thing as it comes out the barrel...if anyone can show where it makes any differance I'd be glad to listen. Also if anyone has an R&D Conversion 6 shot Cyl. in .45Colt for a Uberti for sale let me know I'll take it. Hell I may even take a Pietta one and lap it down a few .0010".(for the right price)
CAS I am told will not alow a 5 shot cylinder in competition, so I'm not sure all competition shooters will want a five shot revolver that compete.
Anyone have the all the competition facts?
I'd rather shoot a six shot Remington C&B with five rounds loaded and have two cylinders and shoot Frontier Class that not be able to shoot a 5 shot .45Colt in Competition at all... According to CAS rules I thought you had to have the hammer down on one empty Chamber. Have those rules changed?
Just curious and putting the question out there so some Cowboy or Cowgirl don't buy something they can't use.
What they should have done was made a .44 Colt... 6 shot.
My inquiring mind jus' wants to know...cause they wouldn't let me shoot an 1862 Pocket Police 5 shot .36 cal rev at a CAS shoot with 5 in it and the hammer down on the safety pins.

Hardcase
May 22, 2010, 10:37 PM
Well, the Kirst 5-shot cylinder is CAS legal because that sixth chamber is there, but just a "dummy". If you look at the Howell/R&D 5-shot cylinder, there's a hole between two of the chambers for the hammer to rest. Is it the same as an empty cylinder? Well, neither is, really, but it seems to me that if the rules allow for Kirst's method, it should allow Howell's, too. If you can show that your hammer is down on that fake cylinder, it's as safe as being on an empty.

Smokin_Gun
May 22, 2010, 11:24 PM
That makes sence to me hardcase. I bet Kenny Howell had already checked into that about the CAS rules before he made that 5 shot Conversion for the rems. Ken's a pretty sharp guy when it comes to makin' these Conversions, and I have two R&D Mfg. Cylinders and one gated .38 Kirst for a Colt.
How much are them new 5 shot Cylinders goin' for now and who's sellin' um besides Kenny Howell himself, anyone know?(is there a long line to wait for them?)

Smokin_Gun
May 26, 2010, 02:23 AM
This otta be here...a lil' history on conversions... also consists of Kirst and R&D info.:cool:

http://www.riverjunction.com/kirst/history.html

Dino.
May 26, 2010, 08:15 AM
This otta be here...a lil' history on conversions... also consists of Kirst and R&D info.

Good stuff.
Thanks for posting that.

Fiv3
May 26, 2010, 10:01 AM
Thanks for the good read:)

JNewell
May 26, 2010, 02:07 PM
Seconded, good stuff - thank you.

Smokin_Gun
May 27, 2010, 12:51 AM
Yur welcome Gentlemen... all I know is I like um both...I think I'd prefer an R&D 6 or Five shot as they are more authentic to the Rimfire .46 cal than the Kirst for the Remingtons. But I like the Kirst cause you can hog out the loading channel and match it to the Kirst backring and make it a five shot loader w/o removing the cylinder and with no gate.
Halfway Creek Charlie built that one with the U-joint loading lever that way and it shot great. It was a Pietta that he shortened the barrel on made that u-joint lever, and put a .44Colt Kirst that took heeled bullets. We did get together one time out here in the Mojave for a great day a shootin'. I sure wish he'd show up again, he's good people.
I like the gated Kirst for Colts...all I can say is you may jus' need to buy one a each :O) R&D makes gated ones too but you need a template tool to locate holes and drill the mounting screw holes out, so you need to buy the locating tool also or send the Rev to Kenny Howell.
Tuff choices hope this stuff helped some :cool: