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fsfty
May 9, 2010, 09:09 PM
I was looking at getting an ar-15, but i don't think i want a .223 because, well, its just a .22. Anyone have opinions on the .308 M1A? I already have an ak-47, and I want another shtf rifle. How does it compare to .308 ar's? Im looking for accuracy and knockdown power; which do you guys feel would be better?

the rifleer
May 9, 2010, 09:29 PM
The m1a excells in accuracy, durability, reliablity, and knock down power. its definently one of the best made .308 semi auto's out there. I'd have one if i could afford one. :rolleyes:

DnPRK
May 9, 2010, 09:36 PM
If you are young and have good eyesight, the iron sights on the M-1A are excellent. If you are older and need a scope, the M-1A is difficult to scope unless you add a Sadlak mount or Ultimak/Amega hand guard rail. Those are expensive.

fsfty
May 9, 2010, 09:37 PM
im older than dirt (45)...stupid question, but can one put a red dot on it?

10-96
May 9, 2010, 09:43 PM
Weight, length, ammo bulk, and waiting for shtf stuff. The M1A is a darn fine rifle, but I don't see it as my idea of a shtf rifle. But then honestly, I picture one of those rifles as being more like what you don't want. Sure, a 62gr 5.56 is a .224 but I suspect it's more potent than what you might think AND the ammo is much more readily available than .308/7.62 ammo. I have a 16" AR in 6.8 Rem Spc, Garands, an M1A, several AR's in 5.56, and a whole slew of other things. If I ever get all wrapped up about anything hitting any fans- I think I'd prefer to have one of my 5.56 AR's handy.

MOREAMMO
May 9, 2010, 09:45 PM
I think that you could get the Scout or one of the Socom models and easily put a red dot on it. I have the M1A Standard and it is my favorite rifle. The trigger is awesome and it is nasty accurate. And they have a look to them that just gets me goin!

DnPRK
May 9, 2010, 09:51 PM
im older than dirt (45)...stupid question, but can one put a red dot on it?
Go to amegaranges.com or ultimak.com and look at the rails that replace the hand guard. With one of those, you'll have no difficulty adding a red dot.

fsfty
May 9, 2010, 09:54 PM
I re-read my original post, and I didn't mean to come off as knocking the .223 caliber. I just meant that i was looking for a more powerful caliber. How are the .308 ar's? Any opinion on those as compare to M1A?

geetarman
May 9, 2010, 10:12 PM
I have a loaded M1A with the composite stock and the VLTOR rails. It makes scope mounting a snap. I have a Nikon Monarch 4-16X50 and it works fine.

I have a match barrel, trigger and sights. The rifle shoots good.

I also have a DPMS LR308 with the stock trigger and small barrel with an Eotech 552 red dot on it and I am surprised how well it shoots. I want to change the trigger to a Timney.

DnPRK
May 9, 2010, 10:54 PM
I have a couple M-1As and a couple 308 ARs. If I had to keep only one, it would be one of the 308 ARs. They are marginally more accurate than my match-prepped M-1As, have better ergonomics, better triggers and are easier to mount optics.

OJ
May 9, 2010, 11:32 PM
If you are young and have good eyesight, the iron sights on the M-1A are excellent. If you are older and need a scope, the M-1A is difficult to scope unless you add a Sadlak mount or Ultimak/Amega hand guard rail. Those are expensive.

Dunno if this is helpful but, I'm going on 84 and really prefer aperture sights to opticals on most rifles. I wasn't happy with the stock sights on my M1A but loved the rifle.

I found XS sells a "Ghost Ring" set that is a big improvement - the rear aperture diameter is twice the size of the stock one and, I remove all aperture inserts for ghost ring effect on all my rifles that aren't scoped (bolt action ones are the scoped ones).

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/kmastf/RIFLES/M1A.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/kmastf/RIFLES/M1AXSGHOSTRINGSIGHTS.jpg

Works for me - and has Jeff Cooper observed - small apertures aren't more accurate and the ghost ring is on target quicker and possibly is easier for the eye to ignore the ghost ring and automatically center the front sight -

Powderman
May 10, 2010, 01:55 AM
The .308 is an excellent caliber. It has the tendency to be extremely accurate; recoil is not prohibitive in a good rifle, and loading data and components abound.

But, here's a suggestion...

Load a .223/5.56 with a good charge of powder (I like Varget, myself), and top it with a 50 to 55 grain softpoint round. Spire point will do as well.

Get a milk jug; fill it full of soupy sand (slightly runny mud) and set it at 50 yards.

Now, shoot the jug center mass. Watch the commotion commence!

The .223/5.56 is NOT a weak or wimpy round, when used with the proper components.

RT
May 10, 2010, 04:48 AM
I have both, but prefer "the right arm of the free world". M1A is a nice rifle.
http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n443/thorm001/Guns/IMG_0009-2.jpg
http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/battle-rifles/

RAnb
May 10, 2010, 04:55 AM
I like my M1a almost as much as my ar-15. The main reason I like the AR-15 more is that I have it in 223, 300 whisper and 458 socom. It is much more versatile than the M1a. I doubt that you will regret getting an M1a

If you want to scope it, then I would suggest springing for the big bucks and putting a proper sturdy mount above the receiver instead of trusting anything where the hand guard goes. I still use the sights on mine, so I can not say much about the mounts out there.

Ranb

Logs
May 10, 2010, 05:41 AM
Accuracy on the M1A is better than most AR versions in 308. Also if you are looking at the DPMS is can be very picky with ammo. Just go to the forums on the DPMS website and read the issues on mags and ammo.

If you can afford an M1A I don't think you will be disappointed.

SR420
May 10, 2010, 08:44 AM
fsfty Anyone have opinions on the .308 M1A?

Springfield makes a nice copy of the M14 and they call it the M1A.

LRB makes there own copy of the M14 that is closer to USGI than the M1A.

The Chinese made a real nice (for the money) copy of the M14.

Research the use & care of the M14 and check on upgrades & accessories before you jump in.
You also want to look at the availability and cost of ammo.




It has been my experience that the M14 type rifle can deliver AK47 reliability and sub MOA accuracy.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/Suppressed-M21A5-RRM.jpg

RobertRogers
May 10, 2010, 12:54 PM
Another thing I like about the M1A is that it is relatively easy to maintain, which is a big plus

Ridge_Runner_5
May 10, 2010, 01:38 PM
Springfield makes a nice copy of the M14 and they call it the M1A.

Dont know if I'd call it a copy, since Springfield has always been the maker of the military M14...its just an M14 without the full auto selector...

SR420
May 10, 2010, 01:55 PM
Springfield Armory Inc. is not the same 'Springfield' company that produced USGI M14s.

azredhawk44
May 10, 2010, 02:13 PM
Springfield makes a nice copy of the M14 and they call it the M1A.

LRB makes there own copy of the M14 that is closer to USGI than the M1A.

The Chinese made a real nice (for the money) copy of the M14.

Thank you for pointing that out, SR420. Always irks me to hear things along the lines of "the only civilian M14 is the M1A" or similar comments. My Armscorp receiver is stamped on its heel "7.62 MM M14 NM", for 7.62x51 NATO caliber, M14 National Match. Anyone want to tell me it isn't an M14?

OP: "Knock down power" differences between the AR-10 and the M14 are meaningless. They're both .308 rifles. The bullet will still be 150 to 180 grains, at 2500 to 2800fps.

If you're now getting into .308 battle rifles, I'd suggest either the AR-10 platform or the FAL. The M14 is losing industry manufacturing support and surplus parts are drying up. The knowledge base to support the M14 properly is sparse and expensive. I say this as an M14 aficionado.

Were I to do it all over again today rather than 6-8 years ago, I'd go with an AR-10. I don't own an AR-10, but I do own an AR-15 that I've put 600+ rounds through deliberately without cleaning over a period of about 6 months, letting the goo/blowback/oil/dust congeal and harden. Didn't lock it up or cause it to fail, ever. As long as you respect an AR and keep it reasonably clean, it won't fail on you. I think that carries over to the AR-10 as well.

SR420
May 10, 2010, 02:29 PM
azredhawk44
Thank you for pointing that out, SR420. Always irks me to hear things along the lines of "the only civilian M14 is the M1A" or similar comments.
Springfield Armory, Inc. goes out of it's way not to point out this fact.

The M14 is losing industry manufacturing support and surplus parts are drying up.
The knowledge base to support the M14 properly is sparse and expensive. I say this as an M14 aficionado.

Are you sure about that?

New, as good as USGI or better than USGI parts for the M14 are available and more are coming.
New receivers, op rods, bolts, magazines, barrels, stocks, sights, trigger groups, muzzle devices
including sound suppressors are currently available or will be soon. The military M14 and civilian
enthusiast have never had it so good and it's only going to get better. Long live the M14 :)

azredhawk44
May 10, 2010, 02:52 PM
New, as good as USGI or better than USGI parts for the M14 are available and more are coming.
New receivers, op rods, bolts, magazines, barrels, stocks, sights, trigger groups, muzzle devices
including sound suppressors are currently available or will be soon. The military M14 and civilian
enthusiast have never had it so good and it's only going to get better. Long live the M14

I was in at Smith Enterprises a couple months ago.

OK, a little background.

I live in Phoenix. This is practically shooting Mecca. We have three long-distance ranges in town with LOTS of High Power and other discipline events going on all the time, and then a big old desert out back to shoot in. Lots of nationally ranked shooters live here.

Three well-reputed M14 smiths are in town here. Phil Arrington, Ron Smith, and Derrick Martin. I think Phil is getting ready to retire. He just moved from his home in North Phoenix, to halfway out to Wickenburg. Used to be within comfortable driving distance for me... now anything I might want him to do involves shipping, or a significant day trip. So, Ron Smith is my next choice.

I had the bolt roller retaining c-clip break off on my bolt.

Smith didn't have the part in stock, and wouldn't have the part for several weeks.

Derrick Martin couldn't do the job, because he didn't have the special proprietary tool for putting the roller back on the bolt.

No other gunsmith in the PHX area had the tool or the expertise to repair this $0.10 failure that rendered my rifle useless.

Now... it's an obscure and unlikely failure, to be sure. But, it knocked my rifle out of commission. It sucked.

So, as I was getting this teeny little failure fixed at Smith Enterprises, I asked about the cost of a new SEI M14.

Andy quoted me a price around $6000. Granted, Smith is so meticulous with his rifles that the craftsmanship far exceeds anything that has EVER come out of Springfield's custom shop. Basically the Wilson Combat or Nighthawk of the M14 world, with prices that obviously compare to that disparity.

But part of that is because Ron Smith, through his machining contacts with other family members, is gearing up his "clan" to produce M14 parts from scratch. But he isn't done yet, and parts are crazy-expensive through his network.

I wish him the best of luck and hope that he can produce enough parts to keep the market stocked with what is needed. But, if I lived in a part of the country that didn't have M14 smiths nearby, I'd be awfully glum about the status of my M14 right now.

FALs still have huge amounts of inexpensive surplus parts kits out there. Same with CETME's. AR-10's have multiple manufacturers making stuff for them, brand new, and the armorer support network of a bajillion AR-15 smiths.

Just my opinion... but I don't share the optimism you have for the M14 platform.

SR420
May 10, 2010, 02:58 PM
Crazy expensive is not exclusive to the M14... I looked at a new SR-25 Carbine from KAC... $6K before optics and I think extra mags are $80.00 each.

Maybe I should say: The military M14 and civilian enthusiast with extra cash have never had it so good and it's only going to get better.

crockett007
May 10, 2010, 03:25 PM
The AR has function issues, the AK has accuracy issues, the M1A (M14) has neither.:D

Kyote
May 11, 2010, 10:05 AM
If you reload, you need to be very careful of too much velocity and preasure. You can bend the operating rod. For this very reason I am looking at an AR style rifle in .308.

SmokyBaer
May 11, 2010, 10:14 AM
Had a few M1As and Garands over the last 3 decades and they ALL were reliable and accurate. My all-time favorite has got to be the Scout Squad I acquired last year. Just ordered a Scout Scope for it... 9 inches of eye relief and 2x mag for a quick target fix. Anxious to get it in and play at the range.

Ordered Leupold quick detach rings to go on the Scout Squads pic rail. Hope they work good.

SR420
May 11, 2010, 11:23 AM
Kyote If you reload, you need to be very careful of too much velocity and preasure.
You can bend the operating rod. For this very reason I am looking at an AR style rifle in .308.

Or... you could be very careful and avoid too much velocity and pressure when loading your own.



SmokyBaer ... My all-time favorite has got to be the Scout Squad I acquired last year. Just ordered a Scout Scope for it... 9 inches of eye relief and 2x mag for a quick target fix. Anxious to get it in and play at the range.

Ordered Leupold quick detach rings to go on the Scout Squads pic rail. Hope they work good.

SmokeyBaer, have you considered installing that new scout scope on the M8 railed hand guard from UltiMAK?
You will not need to add a cheek rest if you use the M8.

SmokyBaer
May 11, 2010, 11:34 AM
Never seen the M8 railed hand guard from UltiMAK. Wow... can't imagine it being lower than the rail bolted to the Scout's barrel. I'll have to look that up. Thanks!!

SR420
May 11, 2010, 11:47 AM
http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/images/M8_1.jpg

medalguy
May 11, 2010, 12:09 PM
Let me jump in and comment on the parts availability. I've built three M1A rifles in the past two years, using what GI parts I had on hand from many years of collecting and shooting. The other parts I had to try to scrounge up, and gentlemen, there aren't very many real GI parts around any more. There are a lot of newly made parts that are sold as GI, but not too many real GI parts, and prices on those are getting really high.

Someone needs to start making high quality parts for these rifles.

As far as the comparison between the AR and M1A rifles, just keep in mind what the military found: the ammo load with the M16 is at least twice that of the M14 rifle. Now, I have both M16 and M14 rifles (right nomenclature) and if I wanted something to use at distance, I'd pick the M14 or in your case M1A without hesitation. For humping it out back, or in an urban environment, I would likely take the M16 and all the ammo I could carry.

The advantage of reloading is that you can tailor your ammo loading to your own particular rifle and what it likes best and shoots most accurately with.

kraigwy
May 11, 2010, 12:21 PM
The only bad thing about the M1A is poeple now days are gimicing them up like ARs. The more crap you put on a rifle the more crap that can break.

You cant gimic your way to good scores.

If left alone, the NM M1A is accurate, and reliable. You have side mounts that can be put on that work without screwing up the rifle. We use to call them the M21.

While the M21 was in service in RVN, they were reliable, they spent less time in the maintance shop then the M40 bolt guns the marines were using.

Iron sights are the best I've seen on a service rifle. I've shot some dern good 1000 yard scores using the NM iron sights. I'm old, (62), my eyes have gone south. Simple fix, go to the eye doctor. My shooting glasses are corrected to concentrate on the front sight. But I can't see to count the clicks or work the score (data) book. Simple fix, I have two lenses in my glasses. My right eye has a lense for seeing the front sight, my left eye has a lense for reading (or working the sights and score book).

Reliable?????, I've been shooting mine since 1977, I've had to replace some shot out barrels and stretched out slings, but thats it.

1977 version of the M1A, serial number 0068XX.
http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy/posting/websize/M1A%20_1_.jpg

1978 - USAMU Sniper School
http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy/posting/websize/Sniper%20School.jpg

Average Joe
May 11, 2010, 05:20 PM
I love my M1A. Its real easy to see those .30 cal holes at 200 yards.

JKHolman
May 14, 2010, 01:02 PM
To the OP,
if you are simply looking to get a .308 platform, there are other and possibly better options than an M1A. But if you want an M-14 style in all its elegance, you need to get the M1A. Like other things in life, the pictures do little justice. My first M1A was a Norinco product from China in the early 'Nineties that cost me less than five-hundred NIB. I wanted an FN/FAL, but they were running near a grand and that was beyond me at the time. As mentioned in an earlier post, it was a good purchase for the money. Having sold it, I missed having one for the longest time.
Three years ago, I bought a new Springfield M1A from Trader Jerry for a little over fifteen-hundred. Like its predecessor, it is cradled in a walnut stock and is still brand-spanking new in appearance. For some reason I prefer mine with the ten-round magazine. Cleaner lines and a finer look. Let me tell you - pick one up at a gun show and you will see how beautiful these rifles really are. The ones dressed up in synthetic stocks and extra gadgets look like tramps to me (laugh with me on this, you SOCOM owners). These are really accurate rifles and are a pleasure to own.

- JKHolman

SR420
May 14, 2010, 01:47 PM
The problem with more than few M1A people these days is their refusal to
embrace & support battle proven enhancements and modernization efforts.

Sticking to the traditional configuration does nothing to expand the
growing list of options and improvements being offered & developed today.

Supporting the M14 modernization effort helps everyone including civilians
by ensuring a supply of new and improved parts like receivers, op rods,
sights, barrels, stocks, muzzle devices, gas cylinders etc... waiting in the
wings are bolts, trigger groups and just about every single part needed to build
a semi-auto M14 from scratch with new parts that are as good or better than GI.

You can teach an old dog new tricks.

Powderman
May 14, 2010, 03:19 PM
I must disagree with you somewhat on that post.

There are many, many weapon platforms that have been fielded for military use around the world. They certainly have come and gone.

But once in a great while, a design comes along that is so suitable for the task that it remains almost unchanged throughout the years. Sure, there are add ons, and attachments--but the basic platform remains the same.

In other cases, the weapon evolves and "distills" to its best evolution.

IMHO, the M16 platform is a prime example of a design that has "distilled" itself--in the form of the M4. Here, we see the cartridge in a platform that is perfectly matched for portability, ergonomics and accuracy. It (in its full auto form) is a true definition of an "assault rifle". I will say that the M4 is the best possible evolution of the 5.56 caliber weapon system.

Next to it, of course, is Avtomat Kalashnikova, the AK which is our European counterpart to the M4--albeit invented much earlier.

For handguns? To me, there is no comparison. The 1911A1 pistol is the quintessential fighting and defensive handgun. It has an enviable track record--almost 100 years old, and STILL being sold in its original configuration.

So, what does this have to do with the M1A? Simply this: IMHO, the M14/M1A, as originally manufactured, is perhaps the perfect evolution of the Main Battle Rifle. The Infantryman's weapon. It is almost perfectly balanced with a loaded magazine inserted. Bring it up and assume a proper firing position. Note how your eye seems to fall almost perfectly in line with the sights. Note well how the force generated upon firing goes straight back into the shoulder--no pivot point for the rifle to climb from.

The original stock is a perfect combination of pistol grip and straight stock--gives a good solid hold. Range is not a problem--the weapon will handle light bullets for close-in work or practice, or it will chamber heavy match bullets to shoot almost literally as far as the eye can see, with devastating results.

If it comes to close-quarters, try to buttstroke someone with an AR rifle. You'll probably break it. Now, do it with an M14. Done, and done!

As far as parts, they are available--and I've seen some parts coming out that are of excellent quality.

It is a well designed, well balanced, accurate, hard hitting rifle--the "distillation" of the M1 Garand, to its best configuration. So, why try to make it into something else?

For the role that is being discussed, the AR10 platform is much more suitable. However, for a good long range, primary battlefield rifle, take the M14/M1A in its original configuration.

Willie D
May 14, 2010, 03:29 PM
I often read that the M14/M1A has the "Best" sights on a service rifle. I'm just curious - what makes them better than, for example, A2 sights?

SR420
May 14, 2010, 03:34 PM
Powderman, I must disagree with you somewhat on that post.

The M14 was retired in 1969... long before it had a chance to evolve.
It's use during the Gulf War and currently in GWOT have finally allowed the M14 to begin slowly evolving into it's very best evolution.
This slow evolution began to accelerate about six years ago and really picked up speed about two years ago.
The Zenith of the M14 battle rifle has not yet been achieved.

H2O MAN





.

Powderman
May 14, 2010, 07:37 PM
I will concur on the short period of evolution.

However, here's the rub...look at what works. The current add-ons, upgrades and additional items used for the M14 platform are meant to re-make the weapon (IMHO) as a close-quarters weapon. This is a role for which the M14 was not designed.

It is a medium to long range, accurate main combat weapon--one that can put down a serious base of fire, even in semiauto; it can also be used without further mods as a short to medium range DM rifle; with optics and just a touch of accurizing, it can be a precision rifle. The round is of good weight and moves along at speed; it can deliver a terminal blow to enemy soldiers AND materiel. And, that's in the wooden-stocked form!

ronl
May 14, 2010, 08:26 PM
Certainly on of the best rifles ever designed. 'nuff said.

SR420
May 14, 2010, 08:28 PM
The current add-ons, upgrades and additional items used for the M14 platform
are meant to re-make the weapon (IMHO) as a close-quarters weapon.

That's not really the case, the 18.0" barreled MK14s have more press
but, the reality is that the majority of modernized M14s in active service
have 22.0" barrels and they are set-up as very accurate DM rifles.

TACOM just completed building M14EBR-RI #5000 and they are not stopping.
http://www.athenswater.com/images/TACOM-RI-a.jpg


There are also a good number of M21A5/Crazy Horse SDM rifles in service.
http://www.smithenterprise.com/images02/M21A5-benning.jpg


And the Marines have the M39 EMR.
http://www.athenswater.com/images/M39_EMR.jpg

All of the rifles listed above are hitting medium to long range targets.

kraigwy
May 14, 2010, 08:34 PM
Some people just think they can gimic their way to good shooting.

The mony spent on gimics would be better spent on ammo down range.

Powderman
May 14, 2010, 09:46 PM
I can see your point....however....

Let's take a look at what the rifle REALLY has. In the pictures, you see the M14 inside some very nice EBR stocks. Versatile? Sure thing. Adaptable? Yes--but to what? I see Picatinny rails on all sides. Why? What does the rifle really need?

A stable bipod, not attached to the barrel or gas cylinder. Check.
For long range, a good optic. Check.
A rock-solid scope mount that won't lose zero. Check.

So, what else do we need? I definitely concur with a raised cheekpiece--a good stock/spot/cheek weld is essential to make accurate shots.

rockhouse
May 14, 2010, 10:33 PM
For what it's worth...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=409541

T. O'Heir
May 14, 2010, 10:45 PM
"...the Scout or one of the Socom models..." Over priced marketing rifles. Other models of the M1A, while being good rifles, are over priced too. Look into a CMP M1. http://www.thecmp.org/m1garand.htm
There's no such thing as 'knockdown power'. Gun rag writer invention.
The .223/5.56 is a long way from being 'just a .22'.
And an M1A is not a battle rifle. It's a commercial sporting copy of one.

SR420
May 15, 2010, 06:50 AM
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs089.snc3/15719_392879289775_758674775_3831186_7377076_n.jpg

madcratebuilder
May 15, 2010, 08:09 AM
Iron sights are the best I've seen on a service rifle. I've shot some dern good 1000 yard scores using the NM iron sights. I'm old, (62), my eyes have gone south. Simple fix, go to the eye doctor. My shooting glasses are corrected to concentrate on the front sight. But I can't see to count the clicks or work the score (data) book. Simple fix, I have two lenses in my glasses. My right eye has a lense for seeing the front sight, my left eye has a lense for reading (or working the sights and score book).

I just ordered a pair with the two different lens, I wasn't sure if it would work, glad to hear I'm not crazy after all.


I have not seen one 'new generation' M14 part that makes a substantial improvement on the original. I had the M14 for basic and ait and carried one my first tour. Finest battle rifle ever made, for certain AO's. Making them 'look' like an M4 does not make them preform like an M4.

SR420
May 15, 2010, 08:40 AM
Sticking to the traditional configuration does nothing to expand the
growing list of options and improvements being offered & developed
today. Today's enhanced and modernized M14 is free of gimmicks.

Today, squads are deploying to Afghanistan with two SDMs, each armed with the M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle, a modernized version of the Vietnam War-era weapon that’s accurate out to 800 meters.

“It’s a very precise weapon system,”said Spc. Andrew McMeley, a squad designated marksman serving in Afghanistan with B Company, 2nd Battalion, 12th Infantry Regiment. “All the improvements on it are fantastic.”

The EBR features a standard M14 barrel, plus a receiver and trigger assembly that’s fitted with a Sage International adjustable aluminum stock, a Leopold 3.5x10 power scope and Harris bipod legs.

“Units have been requesting this capability for a while,” said Maj. Elliott Caggins, assistant product manager for Sniper Weapons. “It provides more shootability than the old weapon.”

The Army began building 5,000 of these modernized M14s early last year in response to the growing need of infantry squads operating in Afghanistan to engage enemy fighters at longer ranges.