PDA

View Full Version : How to stop clip feed probs and jams


philster
May 7, 2010, 10:52 PM
I have a Hi-Point C9 (compact 9mm), and am having probs with rounds jamming while feeding from the clip. Actually, clips - two 10 rd and a 7 rd.

I figure that there are a set of common issues with this kind of thing in any semiautomatic. For instance, it appears that the clip lips play a very important part in how high the primer end of the cartridge sits and at what angle it lies in the top of the clip. All three are relatively new, and I had problems from the start with flat point ammo.

Well, I tried modifying the lips by experimenting with slightly bending them in or out. That didn't seem to help, and I resolved that the flat points were really the issue. I finally shot them all up and replaced them with standard round nosed ammo (extremely hard to find these days, it took months). So I go out target shooting today, and the same problem.

I could ask Hi-Point to replace them (and they would), but I figure I could have the same problem. I'd really prefer to know how to position the lips for optimum jam-free feeding for myself. Is there a rule of thumb to follow for measuring how far the round should sit at the top of the clip and the correct angle? Would slightly chamfering the lower lip of the chamber be something to try? I'd really appreciate any advice.

dsa1115
May 7, 2010, 10:56 PM
For starters, I'd consider loading your magazines with ball ammunition and see if that helps with the feeding and reliability. Then see how well some hollow points feed in the gun. I wouldn't load your magazine with wadcutters.

LaserSpot
May 8, 2010, 12:28 AM
I don't have a Hi-Point, but I can make lots of guesses. Why did you think there was a problem with the magazine? The release point is important (where the round is free of the lips), as is the spring pressure. Does it jam more on the first round or the last round? Does it jam when you cycle by hand? If not, I would suspect weak springs. Can you take a closeup pictures of the parts and the jam?

Keep in mind that as the nose is sliding up into the chamber, the head of the cartridge is sliding up the breech face. A rough spot around the firing pin hole or the extractor, for example, could cause the round to go nose up.


If you can duplicate the problem by hand cycling, troubleshooting will be safer with dummy rounds. Here's one way to make dummy rounds:

1. Pull the bullets out of some of the ammo you're having trouble with. You will need one of these: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=215517
2. Discard the powder, use your gun to pop the primers.
3. Drill an 1/8" hole in the side of each empty case.
4. Tap the bullets back into the cases until they're the exact same length as the ammo you didn't take apart.
5. Squirt hot glue or epoxy in the hole so the bullet can't get pushed further in when you're testing the gun.

philster
May 8, 2010, 09:42 AM
DSA1115 - I did try ball ammo, same prob, I was surprised.

LaserSpot - when I was originally using FP's I made a possibly incorrect assumption that the prob was with the clip, and started tweaking the lips.

As for spring pressure, I've read where lots of folks load the clip 1 rd short until clips are broken in and that helps. However, jams occur throughout the feed at various points.

Some jams leave a round free of the clip but crossed in the chamber, but most are (you'll have to help me with terminology) when the receiver feed tang picks up the back of the round and the nose of the bullet tips down and sticks against the face of the chamber just below the opening. The first case requires dropping the clip and retracting the receiver to dump the round out. The second is resolved by just releasing/re-inserting the clip manually cycling a single rd.

I've also noticed when loading the clip that the top rd nose position varies. Sometimes the nose ends lay nice and flat against each other, then at other times there is slight separation as if they're pivoting slightly on the rim at the primer end. Pressing down on the top rd and releasing results in a slightly different angle. I don't know if this makes a difference or not.

As for weak springs, these clips have hardly been used - less than 200 rds each. I'd also read where most Hi-Point owners had fewer probs after the clips had cycled several times (springs originally too stiff).

I can take pictures, and will the next time I go to the range. I'll check for a rough spot around the firing pin hole or the extractor.

I haven't tried continuous hand cycling, but will. Wouldn't it be easier to use those snap-caps for this purpose? Maybe more expensive, but less trouble and more easily available if they are a match for size.

LaserSpot
May 8, 2010, 11:39 AM
Some jams leave a round free of the clip but crossed in the chamber, but most are (you'll have to help me with terminology) when the receiver feed tang picks up the back of the round and the nose of the bullet tips down and sticks against the face of the chamber just below the opening.Is there rough spot right where the bullet nose is stopping?


As for weak springs, these clips have hardly been used - less than 200 rds each. I'd also read where most Hi-Point owners had fewer probs after the clips had cycled several times (springs originally too stiff).That is a possibility; if the spring is too stiff, that could cause the rounds to nose down when they're stripped from the magazine.


I've also noticed when loading the clip that the top rd nose position varies. Sometimes the nose ends lay nice and flat against each other, then at other times there is slight separation as if they're pivoting slightly on the rim at the primer end. Pressing down on the top rd and releasing results in a slightly different angle. I don't know if this makes a difference or not.It does sound like a problem with the magazine. I think you should ask Hi-Point to replace them; they might have had a bad batch or something.


I haven't tried continuous hand cycling, but will. Wouldn't it be easier to use those snap-caps for this purpose? Maybe more expensive, but less trouble and more easily available if they are a match for size.No, snap-caps are for dry firing. They're too light and they're made of plastic; it would be meaningless if they don't feed from the magazine. You could use Action Proving Dummies: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=16811/pid=31872/sku/Centerfire_Handgun_Dummies__9mm_Luger__per_10__
If you can reproduce the jams by hand cycling, you could save a lot of ammo and trips to the range. I would hate to see you waste $200 in ammo in a vain attempt to fix a $150 gun.

Also, could it be limp-wrist malfunctions? Is it less likely to jam with a really tight two-hand grip?

philster
May 9, 2010, 10:13 AM
I'll check for rough spots where indicated, I'm going to try short loading the clips minus 1 rd, and also will pick up the action dummies (pretty cool tool). Is there any special technique to cycling the action to more closely simulate a firing? I typically grip the receiver firmly with one hand across the top, then push the pistol body underneath it quickly and firmly forward and release the receiver to let it return and chamber a rd.

I've never heard of a limp-wrist malfunction, and don't know how that's supposed to contribute to jamming - please explain. I'm using a two-handed grip. I'm a lefty, and I rest the butt of the grip in my right hand. Ham of my right thumb pressed against my left little finger with right fingers wrapped up and around the back of my left hand.

Hi-Point will replace all of the clips free of charge, I just wanted to understand the mechanics of what causes these problems. I was also concerned that the replacements may have the same issues. If it's anything besides the spring, I thought it should be something I could fix myself and save the aggravation of sending them out and back - living without any clips for however long.

LaserSpot
May 9, 2010, 11:41 AM
also will pick up the action dummies (pretty cool tool).Dummies are also useful for detecting a trigger flinch. Drop a few in your pocket along with some live ammo. Load the magazine while you look at the sky. When it goes click instead of bang, do the sights stay on target? If not, it's something you need to work on.


I've never heard of a limp-wrist malfunction, and don't know how that's supposed to contribute to jamming - please explain.Limp-wristing is a problem that some polymer-frame pistols have. This is because the frame isn't heavy enough to stay put while the heavier slide reciprocates. This results in the slide not going all the way back, so the cartridge doesn't have time time to rise completely, and the slide isn't returning as fast.


Limp wristing is a term used to describe a phenomenon commonly encountered by semiautomatic pistol shooters, where the shooter's grip is not firm enough to hold the frame of the pistol steady while the bolt or slide of the pistol cycles. This condition often results in a failure to complete the operating cycle, properly termed a malfunction, but commonly (and incorrectly) termed a jam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limp_wristingTry pushing with one hand while you pull the pistol toward you with the other hand. If the problem is limp-wristing, you may need a weaker recoil spring or stronger ammo.


I thought it should be something I could fix myself and save the aggravation of sending them out and backI'm in favor of trying to fix it yourself if you can do so safely. The worst that will happen is you learn something, but still have to send the gun in.

philster
May 10, 2010, 07:48 AM
Wow - a great article on limp wristing. The Hi-Point is a composite frame, a compact, and I'm shooting light load practice rds (115 gr). I don't understand what the article means by fast burning powder versus slow - "fast burning powders caused failures to increase, and medium and slow burning powders of the range suitable for the cartridge gave the best reliability." I will try a firmer grip using the method you suggested.

It seems like maybe slightly weakening the recoil spring may be something to consider. How is this typically done?

I got to thinking about it, and short loading the clip won't help because the jams occur at different places in the clip feed.

LaserSpot
May 10, 2010, 07:44 PM
I don't know of a good way to weaken the recoil spring. Wolff and other companies sell different rate springs for some pistols, but probably not for Hi-Point. Try a firmer grip and look for +P ammo. If a firmer grip helps, you could try an intentionally weak grip to confirm the problem. I still wouldn't rule out the magazine spring.

I would guess that loads with slower burning powder are more reliable because they produce more recoil. A significant part of recoil is due to high velocity gas leaving the barrel after the bullet. Even though the gas doesn't weigh much, it's moving at a much higher velocity than the bullet is.

When a slower powder is used, more powder can be put into the case without excessive pressure. Because it's slow burning, the pressure peaks later and is higher at the point when the bullet clears the barrel. So, a larger mass of propellant gas exiting at a higher velocity would give slightly more recoil to operate the slide.

philster
May 11, 2010, 08:40 PM
This is all great info - I really appreciate it. The Hi-Point C9 is +P rated. However, it's still pretty hard to find 9MM ammo of any kind, much less very specific loads. I don't know if the +P designation is related to the speed of the powder, or just the size of the load. There's lots of FP out there though! :barf: I'm shooting Winchester 115 gr. FMJ round nosed for target practice now. Other than a +P rating, how can you tell what the powder speed of any particular box of ammo is?

LaserSpot
May 11, 2010, 09:16 PM
+P means it's loaded to higher pressure so it will produce higher muzzle energy. It will be marked +P on the box and on the case head. I don't think there's any way to tell what powder it's loaded with unless you want to load your own.

You could buy some online if the local place doesn't have any: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=997993

philster
May 12, 2010, 09:38 PM
OK, I have the dummies, and... !@#$! I must be doing something wrong in working the slide, but I don't know what it is. For some reason most of these don't release from the slide when retracted, like when a live rd is fired and ejected. Sure the rd is extracted from the chamber, but it stays attached at the rim and the next rd just tries to jam in with it. What's going on? I noticed that these dummies have NO primer inserted. Maybe the spent primer is required in the cartridge for the action to function normally?

philster
May 12, 2010, 09:47 PM
Just to see the differences between what I'm shooting and the +P you found (THANKS!):

Winchester
Muzzle Velocity: 1190 fps
Muzzle Energy: 362 ft. lbs.

Black Hills +P
Muzzle Velocity: 1300 fps
Muzzle Energy: 431 ft lbs

It appears that the muzzle energy difference is more than enough to change the way the slide retracts and the rds feed.

philster
May 12, 2010, 09:57 PM
Another thought - if the bullet is heavier (147 gr vs. 115), will that also increase recoil as there's more resistance against the burn?

Here's the defense ammo I bought:

Winchester Supreme Elite Ammunition 9mm Luger 147 Grain Bonded PDX1 JHP
Muzzle Velocity: 1000 fps
Muzzle Energy: 326 ft. lbs.

LaserSpot
May 12, 2010, 10:08 PM
Most guns have a seperate ejector, but I think yours uses the firing pin as the ejector. You will have to find a way to fill the primer pockets so the pin has something to hit against. Maybe hotglue?

Or, if you have a small pin punch, you could tap the spent primers out of fired cases and try to get them into the dummy rounds.

It's hard to say if heavier bullets are likely to be more reliable. You haven't ruled out problems with the magazine spring, feed ramp, etc... Feeding the dummy rounds may provide a clue.

philster
May 12, 2010, 10:13 PM
OK, for my last post I guess it does look like the numbers are going the wrong way on the PD rds to help me with jamming. If muzzle energy is the key indicator, then it looks like clip jams may even be worse.

As for the dummies, I figured it out - but I don't know how to work around it. The firing pin doesn't retract fully with the slide. As a normal spent rd is pulled back by the extractor tang's grip on the rim, the primer hits the end of the firing pin and this spins the casing outward through the port and free of the tang. Without a primer cap in place, this doesn't happen and the casing doesn't get pushed off of the extractor. Do I need to insert something in the primer hole to fix this?

It's a miracle I didn't break my firing pin by jamming another rd into the breach.

LaserSpot
May 13, 2010, 08:11 PM
You must have been typing when I hit Submit. See post #15

philster
May 14, 2010, 07:39 AM
JB Weld KwikSteel filled the primer holes nicely and the rds will eject properly. Now I need to take pics of the jams I'm getting, and the angles of the rds in the clips.

LaserSpot
May 14, 2010, 05:13 PM
Good idea; that's better than hot glue. So is it jamming the same way when you hand cycle rounds? If so, that probably rules out limp-wristing.

Does it make a difference if you pull the slide all the way back and let go, or if you hold onto the slide as it goes forward?

philster
May 16, 2010, 04:09 PM
Well, now that the dummies are right it doesn't seem to jam with round nosed ammo when hand cycling. However, I figure that I'm slowing down the action and almost trying to cause a jam if I hold onto the slide, so I've just been releasing it at the rear of the full retraction stroke.

I've attached my pics with comments. I would have put them in with the text, but forgot how to do that.

1RD in Clip - note the alignment of the rd casing with the clip, it's pretty much parallel without a lot of spring tension in the clip. Shown are both the dummy and JHP rds.

Note where the primer sits with respect to the edge of the clip. I guess I'll have to post another reply to get the rest of the images.

philster
May 16, 2010, 04:15 PM
Now look at the rd position with respect to the edge of the clip lips when it's fully loaded and under max spring tension - this is a 10 rd clip (I have two), but it's the same for the 7 rd standard clip. I'm showing both the dummy and JHP as the final rd in case you have probs distinguishing the clip lip edges from the cartridge casing.

The last pic is looking down into the clip when it's fully loaded. In this case, I kept pressing down and quickly releasing the rds in the clip until the last rd lined up with the clip lips again instead of being cocked at an angle, but this results in the gap you see at the bullet end of the cartridge between the last rd and the one underneath it.

philster
May 16, 2010, 05:10 PM
Lastly, here's a couple of pics of the slide face and the feed ramp into the chamber. I don't really know exactly what I'm looking at here, but the slide face seems OK to me - even if slightly scored vertically.

The feed ramp into the chamber seems a little strange, as it looks like the nose of the rds have been taking some squiggly diagonal line driving up the ramp from lower right to upper left.

The two different feed probs I've seen are where:

1) the slide moves forward and instead of catching the top rim of the cartridge (which may be sitting too low in the clip lips), seems to miss and slides over the rim and catches in the groove instead. This moves the cartridge forward with the rd nose angling up, but with the slide catching and stopping while resting on top of the rim instead of getting behind it and picking it up - and the nose jams in the chamber opening.

2) the nose of the rd is slanted downward (like when the clip is full), the slide picks up the back of the cartridge and moves it forward, but the nose hits the face of the feed ramp too low and stops, refusing to slide up into the chamber.

Lastly, a new problem when chambering the JHP rds - which I haven't tried at the range yet. In addition to them jamming (when hand cycling) more often against the face of the feed ramp with a full clip, they seem to have a little more difficulty sliding into the chamber. Once a rd is in the chamber, it sticks inside just enough that hand cycling an unfired rd won't remove it. The extractor tang slips off and leaves the rd in the chamber. I've had to use a pair of small long needle nosed pliers to put their tips in the rim and lever the rd backwards. I have no idea what'll happen when I actually fire one and it tries to eject.

My first (uninformed) take on what I've found is to maybe open up the clip lips ever so slightly near the bullet end of the rd. This should keep the bullet casing aligned with the top edge of the clip lips instead of angled down when the clip is full. This might keep the bullets from jamming into the bottom face of the feed ramp.

It seems I should also make sure that the rds in general (observing primer position at back edge of clip) are riding up high enough into the clip lips so that they get picked up properly by the tangs on the bottom of the slide face when it moves forward, instead of getting missed and ridden over.

Some light polishing might be in order for the feed ramp. The angle of what appears to be the bullet noses sliding upward into the chamber seems a little weird, but I don't really expect to try and change that - just maybe hand polish what's there.

As for the JHP rds in the chamber, I guess I'll need to fire one and find out what happens when it tries to eject. Maybe the blowback from firing will kick it out where hand cycling fails.

All of these are just my observations though, and I won't do anything until some folks have commented so I don't risk make it any worse. I'm looking forward to your advice.

LaserSpot
May 16, 2010, 09:14 PM
It looks to me like the rounds aren't rising to the correct position, possibly because the follower is tilting inside the magazine. That would explain the nose-down jams. It could be caused by rought spots inside the magazine tube that the follower is catching on. It could also mean that the inside of the magazine is smooth, but has some kind of gummy film causing the follower to bind. It could mean that the spring is too weak.

Is it possible to remove the baseplate, spring and follower from the magazine tube? It may help to clean the inside of the tube with a bronze brush or a toothbrush and some Break Free CLP. The breech-face and feed ramp look rough; I would scrub them with a stiff brush and CLP too. A tiny square of 600 grit emery cloth glued to the eraser on an old pencil can be used to polish spots like that.

The problem with the round not extracting could be a dirty chamber; give it a good cleaning. This is a blow-back gun, so the only function the extractor provides when you fire it is to act as a pivot point for ejection.

The problem with the slide catching in the extractor groove could mean that the rounds aren't rising fast enough; the next round has only milliseconds to move into position for the slide to catch it. It could also be a limp-wristing type failure where the slide doesn't go back far enough to catch the rim.

philster
May 16, 2010, 10:20 PM
If I'm going to work on polishing the feed ramp and breech face, shouldn't I go ahead and remove the slide? Did you see anything strange about the squiggly diagonal track the bullets appear to be making up the feed ramp?

I've read some scary stuff about people polishing the feed ramp too much and making their problems worse. I want to be careful to avoid this. Some have mentioned using a dremel, but with the small soft felt pad at low RPM. Which would be more aggressive, the dremel as described or the 600 grit emory cloth on the pencil eraser? For that matter, how about just using a good typewriter eraser? They're considerably grittier and harder than a standard pencil eraser.

I think you can disassemble the clip, I'll take a look. Hey - isn't there also some sort of trick you can use with chalk powder or something to check for exact points of contact or wear spots in the feed?

LaserSpot
May 16, 2010, 11:04 PM
Take it apart and give everything a good cleaning first. I couldn't see the squiggly diagonal track.

Red polishing rouge is finer than 600 grit emery cloth. It should be pretty safe on a felt bit. Don't try to get all the tool marks out. Don't try beveling a new angle with a grinding stone. Also, if you have any plated or anodized parts, you don't want to wear through the surface coating.

You can check for contact points by blackening the feed ramp with candle soot, or a Sharpie, or by putting lipstick on tips of the bullets. Make up a story about why you need the lipstick. :D

philster
May 17, 2010, 06:59 AM
I've tried to highlight the track mark I was talking about. The yellow line runs straight up the feed ramp, centered from left to right in the lowest part of the curved surface - which is where I thought the rd should feed. The red line tracks off-center to the right, and doesn't appear to be straight - assuming that this is the wear pattern from the nose of the bullets pushing up the ramp. It ends at the chamber opening at about 7 o'clock position, instead of dead center at 6 o'clock.

dksac2
May 18, 2010, 02:20 PM
Polishing the feed ramp means just that, polishing. You don't want to remove metal or change angles. You might widen out the width of the ramp a little.
The Hi Point pistols are pretty cheap pistols. If you are using it for self defense, you migh be better off getting a different weapon if you can afford one.
I'm a retired gunsmith and have worked on a lot of high points. Most have feeding problems at least some of the time.
If you can get it to shoot without problems, then you might want to keep it, but it would not be a weapon that I would bet my life on.
You can find 1st or 2nd generation Glock 19's pretty cheap if you look around.
They have very few problems and if they do are easy to fix and parts are pretty low priced. Mags are cheap to buy also. I know that times are tough, so if the High Point is all you can afford, do your best to get it to shoot, otherwise look for something else.
Good luck to you, I hope that you get it fixed.
Be sure to just do one thing at a time and then test fire.You might fix the problem and cause another.

Best Regards, John K

ISC
May 18, 2010, 11:02 PM
Send it back to high point and ask them to fix it.

Also, Hi points are magazine fed, not clip fed. The two words are not interchangable. You shoul educate yourself.

howlnmad
May 19, 2010, 09:46 AM
ISC,
That was a very helpful input. Where were you at the start of this thread?

howlnmad

philster
May 21, 2010, 07:58 AM
ISC - Seeing as how you must know the difference and I do not, why don't you educate me? What's the diff between a magazine and a clip? There's lots of terminology that I'm unsure of, and I don't pretend to be an expert. I'm here for an education. If I knew all the answers, I wouldn't need to post in this forum.

DKSAC2 - I know the Hi-Point C9 is a cheap gun. However, I've read lots of posts from people who have experience with them being extremely reliable once properly broken in and adjusted. And I think I'm getting closer to doing just that with some of the excellent suggestions by Laserspot, along with info I've found on a dedicated Hi-Point forum.

philster
May 21, 2010, 08:23 AM
I've disassembled the C9, polished the feed ramp (had some sort of black paint coating) and the face of the breech, started feeding some dummies through it, and made some observations about the magazine.

The feed lips at the top of the mag do appear to be off. Some adjustments appear to have improved the feed. I actually brought the rear together a little to force the back end of the rd down and provide a hair more clearance for the firing pin as the rd moves forward and the pin retracts. I then opened up the lips a little just behind the ball of the rd, and then bent the forward tangs along side the ball in just a little. All of these force the rds to sit more parallel to the top of the mag lips when fully loaded, and as they exit the mag they immediately start angling upwards. This has practically eliminated the rds coming out nose low and jamming into the bottom of the feed ramp.

I also polished the front upper edge of the follower, thinking that maybe it was binding on the inside of the magazine as it rises. After having disassembled the mag, I'd like to polish inside of the front rounded edge running the length of the mag, but I can't figure out what to use to get inside and do a good job. I had used the small felt wheel on my dremel at low RPM with their red polishing compound on the breech and feed ramp, but finished with a regular pencil eraser. Maybe some sort of eraser would be good for this too?

I'm still waiting on my Break-free CLP to arrive, and still need to figure out how to polish the inside of the mag along the rd nose. After that, I'll fully clean/lube/assemble, go to the range, and see what happens. I'm particularly interested in how the JHP rds will feed. I'll also practice using the push/pull grip method to avoid limp-wristing.

LaserSpot
May 22, 2010, 12:37 AM
ISC, I think it is time to give up on the clip vs. magazine argument. The difference doesn't matter to most people and they wont use three syllables when they can get by with one. Not many guns use a cartridge clip anymore, so confusion is unlikely.

I know some people have no interest in taking things apart and finding out what makes them tick; ignorance is bliss and that's fine. Some people already know more than they want to and can't be bothered to mess with it anymore; that's fine too. Some people just want it to work and feel that the manufacturer should be held to account for defective products that are under warranty; that's also fine. Personally, I find it interesting to track down the causes of little problems like this just to satisfy curiosity and out of never-admit-defeat stubbornness. When your frustration level exceeds any satisfaction you may get from fixing a problem, it's time to make the call and send it in.

dksac2, you make a good point when you say "Be sure to just do one thing at a time and then test fire. You might fix the problem and cause another." Of course that takes some patience if you can only get to the range on the weekend.

philster, it sounds like you're on the right track. Does the inside of the mag look rough, or could it just have some kind of tacky residue? A light film of CLP should help either way. To polish the inside, maybe you could glue a strip of 320 grit emery cloth around the end of a 3/8" dowel rod or something similar; work it back and forth down the length of the tube. You could follow with extra fine emery paper, but I don't think you really need a mirror finish if the scratches go in the same direction as the bullets.

philster
May 22, 2010, 10:44 PM
Seeing as I don't know all of the proper gunsmithing terminology, I'm going to arbitrarily invent some for the different areas of the mag clip lips that I'm talking about. I took some Latin in high school and also have some interest in human anatomy, so here goes. The longer area that covers most of the casing I'm going to call the labia minora (basically means "small lips"), and the smaller tang-like pieces that wrap around the front/ball of the rd the labia majora. The latter roughly translates as "large lips" - but even though this isn't the largest feature of the lip area of the mag, they do stick out in front and I like the vague physical resemblance to the similarly named parts of my wife. Whaddya think about that, ISC? :D

Laserspot, it's definitely the curiosity factor, independence, and stubborness factor that does it for me. I got started working on the trusty old 1958 Remy 22 that my dad gave me when I couldn't find a gunsmith that could work on it for several weeks. All of the shops I called were backed up due to incredible demand, something to do with scary changes in legislation looming and a guy whose name rhymes with Osama. I also didn't think that the bill was going to be very reasonable for what I figured wasn't that much real work. I bought a take-down manual for $15 on ebay, did the work myself, and enjoyed it. That's the sweetest/most accurate shooting little rifle you'll ever find, and my new Ruger can't even compare. Next thing after putting a PD barrel on my Mossy 500 was I decided that the overly stiff safety was an issue that I could also address. My solutions and pics are/were posted here somewhere, and that turned out great as well. Encouraged, I figured I could beat this feed thing on my little C9 too. Lastly (on this particular subject), God forbid that there may ever come a time when you can't just take your firearm to a gunsmith, or that you may have a critical situation where you just need to do something quick, yourself. There - I'm an old boy scout, and I still just like to be prepared.

Enough of prodding, history and ranting. I don't have my CLP yet, but I'll try the dowel rod and emory cloth wrapping. My gun cleaning kit is in storage somewhere (we're in temporary housing while building a new home), and my working light's not the best at the mom-in-laws. So I'm making do for now with really just a boresnake, my punch set, small hammer, and a piece of 2x8 board with some holes for tapping pins out. From what I can see inside the clip, it either appears a little dirty or dingy, mildly tacky with some sort of residue, or possibly rough. I don't need to make it shine, but I figure that smoothing/cleaning/lubricating this forward surface of the mag has to be an OK idea. I'll also soak/clean and then very lightly coat the spring as well, which seems to have a less-than-smooth patina of something on it now. I'll do this for all three mags, including the polishing for the nose of the follower.

I also agree with the idea of not changing too much at once - this is sound advice for just about anything that you troubleshoot. I'll take my baby channel locks to the range for making slight changes to the mag lips, and won't mess with the other two mags until I've got a working solution for the first one. The range I use is great - really very little more than a large dirt and gravel pit in a state wildlife preservation area. I'm usually the only one driving out there through the rocky creek bed at dawn, spooking a small herd of deer once I get to the empty parking lot. I can get lots of work done, use silhouette targets, and do just about anything I want without coordinating with other shooters or having the supervision of a range marshall. Thanks again for all of the great comments!

ISC
May 23, 2010, 01:45 AM
ISC - Seeing as how you must know the difference and I do not, why don't you educate me? What's the diff between a magazine and a clip? There's lots of terminology that I'm unsure of, and I don't pretend to be an expert. I'm here for an education. If I knew all the answers, I wouldn't need to post in this forum.


Clips don't completely encase the ammunition that they hold. Examples of clips are moon clips for revolvers, stripper clips for Broom handle pistols, SKSs and M16s, and en bloc clips for Garands and mannlicher rifles. Clips usually (but not always) don't stay in the weapon after its loaded.

Magazines or "mags" completely encase the ammunition. Some firearms have fixed magazines, and they are often loaded with clips (especially military firearms). Examples of fixed magazine weapons are most WWII rifles, SKSs, and most shotguns.

Hi point has a very good customer service policy and if you send them back your pistol they will repair it for free and usually include a free spare magazine. You just mail it to them and they mail the repaired pistol back to you.

I hear alot of people use the incorrect terms about firearms. Its usually folks that haven't been shooting long or have only a passing interest in guns. They're typically the same folks that don't have the 4 rules of firearm safety memorized or call any semi auto pistol a "Glock" or "nine", and call any handgun a "Heater", "rod", "piece" or "gat".

They also don't understand that a bullet is the projectile that is fired from a firearm and a cartridge is the round that is loaded in a firearm before you shoot it.

I think I'll start another thread when I get a chance that expands on this info so that I can be abused by a bunch of people who are comfortable in their ignorance.

philster
May 23, 2010, 03:36 PM
One of the main reasons that I bought my weapon from Hi-Point was exactly because of the customer service policy. I'm counting on it for big problems, but I just can't see that this is that big of a deal if I can figure it out - and I think I'm close now. But if I send my pistol in, I believe I'm out for the shipping costs and then I don't have a weapon handy in the bedroom for how ever long it takes them to fix it. If I make the first shot count (which works fine every time), then at least I get one while I'm trying to get a hand on my shotty! Plus, I REALLY want to know for myself why this happens. If it's not the pistol (and now I don't have any indication that it is), then I think they'll probably just send a new replacement mag. The mag would probably cost about as much as the shipping. I have no idea if Hi-Point will actually cycle rds through the weapon, either live or dummies to check the feed - but I kind of doubt it.

ISC
May 23, 2010, 04:35 PM
I'd start by contacting their customer service number and see what they say. It's better to send the gun out now when there is little or no expectation of needing it than to wait until you need it and be screwed because it won't cycle.

It might be worth your time to do a little networking and make a post here and see if any local members have a hipoint pistol that would like to meet you at the range. You could try shooting your pistol with his mag and vice versa. Have a cup of coffee afterwards, compare notes, and have a contact.

That is how networks are built...

Hawg Haggen
May 23, 2010, 04:49 PM
I hear alot of people use the incorrect terms about firearms. Its usually folks that haven't been shooting long or have only a passing interest in guns.

I've been shooting for close to 50 years. I've heard magazines called clips all my life. It's not a matter of being dumb or uneducated. In some cases it's simply what you grew up around. You can stew and stir and rant all you want they're still going to be called clips so get over it. Don't be so anal.:D

ISC
May 23, 2010, 05:09 PM
There will always be people that call things by the wrong name, but It will never cease to annoy me or think less of someone that doesn't care enough to learn to do things the right way.

It's like the guys at a public range that don't think they have to wait for the range to go hot before they start handling their firearms because they learned poor gun handling shooting in their back yard with their uncle when they were a kid and no one ever corrected them.

It's not anal to correct someone when they call a Shotgun a rifle or a magazine a clip or a muzzle brake a silencer (yep I've heard that one more than a couple times).

I know that I am not the only one that assumes that a person has an inadequete knowledge of firearms when they use incorrect slang terminology to refer to firarms. If one doesn't know what something is called its a lack of knowledge. That's another way to say ignorance, which is easily corrected.

The same thing goes for someone that holds a pistol sideways or pushes the pistol forward in a punching motion every time they pull the trigger. Even if that person is hitting their target I'm going to assume that they don't know what they are doing and I will find another place to shoot, or at a minimum, pay closer attention toi them to make sure that their ignorance doesn't become dangerous.

Ok, so calling a magazine a clip is a less aggregious example than calling a shotgun a rifle, but if someone called your AR 15 a machinegun wouldn't you feel obligated to correct them to inform them that it is a semiauto (I've heard that one alot too). I'm not going to comment about it anymore because I don't want to hijack the thread. I just wanted to take the opportunity to educate, because knowledge is a good thing.

philster
May 24, 2010, 08:33 PM
From down south... "Hey, let's go get a coke." "Sure, what kinda coke you want?" "Get me a Dr. Pepper!"

I thought the dowel rod was flimsy and couldn't figure out how to get the emory cloth to stick to it, so I ended up with a flat/thick carpenter's pencil, some superglue gel, and an emory cloth multipack (couldn't find just a sheet of fine grit at HD). I used the coarse cloth to round off the beveled edges along the length of the pencil, cut a strip of the fine cloth to wrap around the now nicely rounded edge, and glued it on. I now have a great sturdy metal polishing stick that worked like a charm to smooth up the inside surfaces of my mags.

If after all the feed ramp, breech face, and mag polishing, cleaning, lubricating, bending, firing, and more bending that I've done so far and have yet to do I can't eliminate the feed probs, I'll call Hi-Point to ask some questions, and then send it in.

I don't think it's too far fetched to consider that our constitutional 2nd ammendment may be eliminated someday by a stroke of a pen (Hillary's?) in order to comply with a screwed-up UN policy. I bet that the Aussies never really thought they'd lose the right to keep and bear arms. At the point we lose ours, anybody that has a CCW, has attended firearms training, been to a repair shop, or posts in a forum just like this may be investigated by the feds to make sure they've turned in their weapons. So if some day you still have what will then be an illegal firearm and need a repair, there won't be a gunsmith in a forum or shop to ask or do the work, or even a manufacturer that you can send your weapon to.

Remember that just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they're not out to get you. :D

Hawg Haggen
May 24, 2010, 08:39 PM
nm

philster
June 4, 2010, 05:14 PM
My CLP got lost in the mail or I got scammed by the eBay seller - I'm going to Cabela's tonight to pick up a bottle. What a pain. I guess I should just be happy I live within 25 miles of one.

philster
June 4, 2010, 09:54 PM
Cleaned, lubed, ready to re-assemble after the CLP "cures" for two hours - that's what the directions say! With my saved-up Cabelas' points I picked up the 12 oz. spray bottle, a plastic pistol transport case, and a padded scoped rifle case/bag for $13. I probably won't get to the range for over a week, I'm going out of town for a few days.

philster
July 5, 2010, 09:34 PM
Whew, I bet that anybody still following this thread thought it was a total waste of time! I got to the range today, and fixed all of my mags. The final solution was based on properly bending the feed lips. I used a pair of mini-channel lock pliers. After getting it right, all of my jams stopped - except for a brief problem on one where the rds jammed upright instead of downward. It was weird because it always happened on about the 6th or 7th rd of an 8 rd mag. I tweaked it a little, and that went away too.

So here's the deal. The longer part of the lips at the flat/back of the mag should be closer together (keeps the base lower, but still catchable as the slide moves forward), and as you move toward the tip of the bullet along the longer lip edge - they should flare out slightly. The small tangs that then reach forward should be just wide enough and contoured to let the rd rise in the mag without touching the bullet. We're talking about very small tolerances here. As the rd is pushed forward, the front of the bullet needs to clear the mag and be pushed up by the spring in time for the nose to hit the feed ramp high enough to continue into the chamber.

As for the latter problem of the rd jamming straight up, I had a little too much outward flare on the lips - so the mag spring flipped the rd up too fast and the nose of the bullet flew up past the chamber opening as the slide moved forward. Bending them back together a smidge solved the prob.

I'm now emptying entire mags without jams, and my PD hollow point ammo feeds perfect as well.

One last thing that I probably should have realized is that keeping all of my mags loaded to max capacity isn't good for the springs. The advice I got was to keep only one mag loaded for home defense, then rotate to a different mag every month to try and save the springs.

Thanks to all who have contributed and to all those who've had the patience to follow the thread. I've had some family illness, travel, and work situations that have kept me from getting to the range sooner. I hope that this helps somebody else find and fix their pistol mag feed and semi-auto jam problems.

Bill DeShivs
July 5, 2010, 09:54 PM
Unless the feed ramp is integral with the barrel, leave it alone. HiPoint frames are made of plated zinc. You don't want to polish that!

LaserSpot
July 6, 2010, 10:07 PM
Glad to hear it's working more reliably!

I wouldn't worry about the springs, it's a myth that they get tired from being left compressed. Spring fatigue happens when they are over-worked, or when they are worked thousands of times. You can measure the free length if you want to verify this.