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View Full Version : How can I achieve low recoil, accuracy, lethal power for 75 yards?


Jack O'Conner
April 28, 2010, 09:29 AM
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/rushmoreman/PAwoodswtbuck.jpg

I've been kicked enough around by my 12 gauge rifled slug gun. The recoil seems truly unpleasant to me. I recently discovered that muzzle-loaders are OK for the shotgun-only area I hunt. My USAF buddy and I get together to hunt in eastern Pennsylvania about 45 miles north of Philly urban sprawl.

I fired an Omega 50 cal. at the gun club. A member kindly let me try it. Recoil seemed about same as a 20 gauge. But each firearm is different in terms of stock design, weight, etc.

My question is related to recoil, safety, accurasy. Please recommend a rifle for me. My budget is $450. Local shop has a scoped Winchester 45 caliber for $275. Salesman said it's made by CVA. Is a medium powered load lethal at 75 yards? I read that CVA has been involved in lawsuits involving full power loads. Something about lack of proof-testing and Spanish steel but for all I know, this is ancient history and their problems were corrected.

My goal is to achieive reasonable balance between accurasy, lethal power, and minimal recoil. Perhaps a 50 caliber would suit me best but I have never owned a muzzle-loader and my research has been limited. My shots will not exceed 75 yards. The whitetails in this region are half the size of Dakota mule deer.

Thank you for your input. I appreciate it.

andrewstorm
April 28, 2010, 09:47 AM
The savage 110ml is the best u can buy,and u can use smokeless powder,very leathal on any big game.:cool:

andrewstorm
April 28, 2010, 10:30 AM
The savage 110ml is the best u can buy,and u can use smokeless powder,very leathal on any big game.:cool:

Wild Bill Bucks
April 28, 2010, 11:14 AM
My preferences for ML's tend to be on the expensive side, but almost any of the inline ML's in 50 caliber, with an MMP sabot, and a hornady 250 grain bullet, in front of a 70 or 80 grain powder charge, will be easy on the shoulder and will give lethal performance on any size deer at 75 yards.
I own Savage MLII, and for my money they just can't be equaled by either of my Thompson Encores. I also own several Thompson Omegas that will shoot very accurately, but it is hard to take anything hunting but my Savage.

mykeal
April 28, 2010, 01:08 PM
Lyman Great Plains Rifle or Thompson Center Hawken, .54 cal, .530 round ball patched with .018 pillow ticking lubed with Ballistol/water in 1/6 ratio, 70 gr ffg real black powder.

simonkenton
April 28, 2010, 01:12 PM
Get a Thompson Center Hawken in .50 and shoot patched round balls.
Use 80 grains of ffg black powder and there is not a whitetail on the continent that can withstand a lung shot at 75 yards.
He will leave a blood trail that Stevie Wonder could follow, but he won't go far.
Recoil with black powder is not too bad, it burns more slowly than smokeless and gives more of a shove than the hard kick of a modern gun.

I also have a Savage and it is a great muzzleloader. You could down-load the Savage and have a great 75 yard deer rifle with minimal recoil.
With my load I am cranking out more foot pounds than a 30-06, pretty stout recoil.

Doc Hoy
April 28, 2010, 01:19 PM
You're in my old stompin grounds. Sounds like Boyertown or Reading?

So I am not completely highjacking the thread, let me add that... my Uncle (RIP) took deer out of that area with a flintlock 50 cal TC. He willed that rifle to my cousin who harvested a 210 pound buck this year about three miles south of Pottstown.

Both of those guys swear (or in the case of my uncle, swore) by it.

My uncle used round balls as Mykeal recommended but I am not sure about my cousin.

Hawg
April 28, 2010, 01:33 PM
I'm with Mykeal, get a Lyman GPR in .54 with round balls.

zippy13
April 28, 2010, 02:34 PM
As mentioned by the first responders, andrewstorm and Will Bill Bucks, the Savage 110 ML series has really upped the ante in muzzle-loaders. I suspect many will follow the Savage example in their future ML offerings. Unfortunately, for now, the Savage ML is beyond your stated budget.

Before you give up on your shotgun, and its back-up shots, for a front feed firearm, let's look at your initial complaint: recoil. You didn't mention what model shotgun you're using. What steps have you taken to reduce your slug gun's recoil? As an example, I'm assuming it's a typical contemporary pump action with a rifled barrel, cantilevered scope and a synthetic stock. For a fraction the price of a muzzle-loader (and the myriad accouterments) a shotgun's recoil can be reduced significantly.

The typical Savage 110 ML-II tips the scales at 7 3/4-pounds. That's about 8 to 12 ounces heavier than a Mossberg slug gun. Add a 12-ounce weight to the shotgun and you'll reduce the recoil significantly. To help reduce muzzle jump and felt recoil, Mossberg offers factory barrel porting for $35 -- if you're inclined towards porting, that's the deal of the century.

Does your shotgun fit you correctly? The vast majority of shooters have guns with unaltered factory stocks that they are "making do" with -- a poor stock fit can contribute to kick. While correcting fit, there are numerous stock modifications, from more efficient recoil pads to telescoping units, that will reduce felt recoil.

Noz
April 28, 2010, 03:30 PM
The most vicious "kick" I have ever gotten from a firearm was from an Ithaca Deer Slayer Slug gun. A good recoil pad solved most of the problem. A good "in stock" kick reducer would help even more. Both would be much cheaper than the $450.

Jack O'Conner
April 28, 2010, 06:45 PM
Doc: My buddy and I hunt southeast of Allentown and north of Quakertown. The land is divided into 10 and 20 acre parcels. Seems mighty yuppy-ish to me but the deer are numerous and not so difficult to shoot from ladder stands. One year, the Pennsylvania Game Dept. offered un-limited doe licenses. No kidding!

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/rushmoreman/peter004-1.jpg

My 12 gauge is a Winchester pump. Recoil is quite severe compared to my favorite 30-30 carbine. I appreciate the porting advice and phoned Magna-port in Michigan and was quoted a reasonable price. But my focus is a black powder rifle and NOT a 54 caliber. YIKES! Turn the numbers around and its 45 which seems more attractive to me.

I found a few prospects on GunBroker. A TC White Mt carbine appears hardly used and I like the side hammer feature. Omega seems like an easy-to-maintain rifle and there are plenty for sale.

Any input on the Winchester (CVA) in-line 45 rifle? That $275. price is appealing. But I won't own an unsafe firearm.

Thanks to all for the shared wisdom.

Jack

FrontierGander
April 28, 2010, 08:21 PM
Thats to much for the Winchester. No dangers in that rifle at all though.

Personally i'd either check out the CVA Accura - CVA Optima - CVA Wolf.

New Optima
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Blackhorn209/NRAshooting005.jpg
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Blackhorn209/NRAshooting002.jpg

New Wolf right out of the box @ 50 yards with open sights
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/CVA%20Gun%20Pics%20and%20Reviews/Wolf003.jpg
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Caldwell%20And%20Family/000_1029.jpg

CVA Accura with Truglo ghost ring rear sight and front Globe sight @ 100 yards. That shot on the far right is my fault :mad: Blew a beautiful 5 shot group.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/CVA%20Accura/000_0464.jpg

FrontierGander
April 28, 2010, 08:24 PM
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/CVA%20Accura/000_0918.jpg

The Optima and Accura though are just down right scary at 200 yards. 1 1/2" and under is normal for both of them.

CajunPowder
April 28, 2010, 08:35 PM
I also like the idea of getting a 45 caliber black powder muzzleloader, then I could share the round balls between the Remmie, (the remmie I'll get in about a hunderd years), and the rifle.

From what I understand, the common and modern 45 caliber rifles out there are the same as the 50 caliber, (of that model), with a smaller barrel.

My question is, could one get better accuracy to POA and MOA pushing the smaller sabot or boolit FASTER, with the same amount of powder, thus less recoil and better accuracy.

Again, the only reason I entertain a 45 rifle is that only requires one mold and one type of bullet between the revolver and the rifle.

DOES that make sense? I know I'm missing many variables in the equation but my primary reasons for purchasing these pieces is because the gubment, IMHO, is in the business of hindering our access not only to firearms, but to ammunition as well and it will all only get worse, and maybe worse faster than any of U.S. might care to believe.

:(

Hawg
April 28, 2010, 08:42 PM
I also like the idea of getting a 45 caliber black powder muzzleloader, then I could share the round balls between the Remmie, (the remmie I'll get in about a hunderd years), and the rifle.

No you can't. A rifle takes a .430-.435 ball. The Remington takes a .454.

FrontierGander
April 28, 2010, 08:42 PM
a LOT more projectiles to choose from if you shoot a 50cal. 45 has no advantage at all. In fact its a big disadvantage in colorado where i live. Minimum caliber for elk is 50cal

A .45cal muzzleloader also normally takes .440 round balls. Inlines wernt made to shoot round balls.

CajunPowder
April 28, 2010, 08:46 PM
Thanks Frontier Gander!

A 50 caliber would probably retain trading value better than a 45.

The CVA Accura (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712-cat20720-cat20815&id=0075788217251a&navCount=4&podId=0075788&parentId=cat20815&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=9IS&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat601233) is on sale ... $329.99

Hawg
April 28, 2010, 08:48 PM
A .45cal muzzleloader also normally takes .440 round balls

That's a 50 cal.

Inlines wernt made to shoot round balls.

No they weren't

FrontierGander
April 28, 2010, 09:10 PM
no a .50cal takes .490 round balls. Look it up on either tc or cva's online manual.

CajunPowder
April 28, 2010, 09:25 PM
Hawg:

Those revolver carbines are pretty neat, the real drawback to me is that I would not put my hand on the forestock area when shooting because ... well it's a revolver.

I'm really liking the afford ability and simplicity of the CVA Accura.

arcticap
April 28, 2010, 09:57 PM
I fired an Omega 50 cal. at the gun club. A member kindly let me try it. Recoil seemed about same as a 20 gauge. But each firearm is different in terms of stock design, weight, etc.

My goal is to achieive reasonable balance between accurasy, lethal power, and minimal recoil.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2310/p1110496a26.jpg

I don't like recoil much either. But since it's for a shotgun season why not just hunt with a very accurate 20 gauge like an H&R Ultra Slug gun? Mostly due to it's weight it has noticeably less recoil than most muzzle loaders do. And it has the same action as a break action muzzle loader. :)

andrewstorm
April 28, 2010, 10:20 PM
reciepe add 2 777 magnum pellets (red box) 1 250 grain hornady sst ml bullet an a winchester 209 primer,= 2060fps and about twice the energy required to humanely harvest deer size game,try different bullets thompson shocwaves are also very good,if you like conicals the 385 gr buffalo prelubed bullets are very accurate and penetrate very well ,but have a rainbow trajectory out past 100 yrds.while using tompson 250gr shocwaves I made a 180yrd running shot on a large doe ,and a clean kill ,the animal droped in its tracks ,with conicals u must use a wool wad when not using loose powder.:cool:

22 rifle
April 28, 2010, 10:22 PM
....

Doc Hoy
April 29, 2010, 06:00 AM
Thanks for the wink-back. Nice to read about the excellent hunting in PA once again. I am not a hunter and never was but the deer country in PA is legendary.

I left when I joined the Navy but I can recall those herd culling seasons. My Cousin and Uncle left for work an hour and a half early during deer season to hunt on the way to work. My cousin was a trapper as well as a hunter.

Nice to recall days gone by.

Thanks... and sorry for highjacking the thread folks. Couldn't resist.

B.L.E.
April 29, 2010, 06:51 AM
Generally speaking, the gun that weighs the most will kick the least. When shopping for a gun, if it feels feather light when you handle it, put it back.

madcratebuilder
April 29, 2010, 07:51 AM
Instead of changing rifles or loads have you considered using a recoil pad?

After I had heart surgery and several stints installed my Dr recommended I not shoot high powered rifles. I did some research on reducing felt recoil and had some shirts made to accept the Browning "Reactor" pad. It's a gel filled pad that really works. I shoot a lot of mil-surps with steel butt plates and lots of recoil, the pad tamed them down a lot.

I had this young lady make some shirts for me that have a pocket that accepts the reactor pad, very reasonable cost and very effective.

http://pinetreecustomsportswear.com/

Hawg
April 29, 2010, 10:26 AM
no a .50cal takes .490 round balls. Look it up on either tc or cva's online manual.

You're absolutely right. I don't know what I was thinking. Here's a chart that gives the sizes. Sorry for the wrong info.
Well the chart doesn't match up but I think everybody can figure it out,

Rifles & Pistols Caliber Ball Patch
.32 .310 .015
.36 .350 .015
.40 .395 .015
.44 .433 .015
.45 .440 .015
.50 .490 .015
.54 .530 .015
.58 .570 .015
Revolvers Caliber Ball
Colt .31 .321
Colt .36 .375
Colt .44 .451 or .454
Rem .36 .375 or .376
Rem .44 .451 or .454

Pahoo
April 29, 2010, 01:04 PM
Jack
Your requirements are not all that demanding and Y'all sure can get there from here. If you do decide to go with an In-Line, might I suggest one of the closed breech models and try to work up a good shot-string with the new BlackHorn-209. If you have been looking at the new CVA's, I would not have a problems with these as they not have some pretty good barrels. I guess I just don't know to much about what you are in to. All the choices listed, will perform well for you. I have shot my share of the sidelocks and most of the In-Lines available. Most sidelocks dare not come with recoil pads and all high end In-Lines do. Might add that when it comes to M/L's, you have to be patient with the rifle and yourself. ..... ;)



Be Safe !!!

sneeker
April 29, 2010, 08:27 PM
You can use a .495 ball as well with a 50 cal. if you use a thinner patch.

B.L.E.
April 29, 2010, 10:15 PM
You can use a .495 ball as well with a 50 cal. if you use a thinner patch.

Or if you like a tighter fitting ball as in going for maximum accuracy in target shooting. This may require a short starter and a small mallet to get the ball started.

CajunPowder
April 29, 2010, 11:09 PM
My entire entrance into black powder has been because I feel that governments have NEVER wanted their citizens to have guns ... UNLESS ... the government is depending on their citizens to CREATE the government, or they are very, very, very smart and know that if every man had a rifle and a pistol loaded, and in the closet, there would be far, far less chance of invasion ... HOT CHOCOLATE anyone? :D

So now I understand that the modern inline black powder muzzle loading rifles fare better with conicals, correct me if I'm wrong, (per their design or their intended use or both).

I also understand that a round ball loses velocity much more rapidly than a conical, something on the order of 50% loss of velocity once a round ball has traveled X amount of yards and the conical will have only lost about half that amount of velocity. So the LONG shot at a deer or game is going to be much, much more effective with a scoped inline BP muzzle loader rifle than one with a round ball.

I want one that shoots round balls as best as possible because of the first paragraph that I wrote. I think our government not only wants U.S. to NOT have guns, I think they are doing everything possible to limit our ability to get AMMO.

What kind of rifle should I get?

Hawg
April 30, 2010, 04:04 AM
I would go with a Lyman Great Plains with a 1:60 twist.

B.L.E.
April 30, 2010, 06:24 AM
So now I understand that the modern inline black powder muzzle loading rifles fare better with conicals, correct me if I'm wrong, (per their design or their intended use or both).

I also understand that a round ball loses velocity much more rapidly than a conical, something on the order of 50% loss of velocity once a round ball has traveled X amount of yards and the conical will have only lost about half that amount of velocity. So the LONG shot at a deer or game is going to be much, much more effective with a scoped inline BP muzzle loader rifle than one with a round ball.


Most of the modern in-line muzzleloaders have a fast rifling twist for bullets. One turn in 28 inches or there about. It's the rifling twist, not the in-line design that makes them more suitable for bullets than roundballs. There are some custom made in-line target rifles with roundball barrels but they are not manufactured off the shelf guns.

There are also some traditional style muzzleloaders offered with bullet twist and Green Mountain offers barrels for custom made muzzleloaders in both roundball and bullet twist.

For roundballs in .50 caliber, the rifling twist should be somewhere in the 60 to 72 inch range.

Yes, roundballs shed velocity fast which also causes crosswinds to drift them a lot. A mere 5 mph crosswind can move a roundball several inches at 100 yards. The target shooters really pay attention to the wind flags when they shoot.

FrontierGander
April 30, 2010, 12:05 PM
green mountain is no longer producing barrels for the TC sidelocks, something about having to fill military contracts first. They are getting really hard to find

B.L.E.
April 30, 2010, 10:37 PM
green mountain is no longer producing barrels for the TC sidelocks, something about having to fill military contracts first. They are getting really hard to find

Yes, I think they quit making the ready to shoot TC drop in barrels. I think they still make muzzleloading barrel blanks that you or some gunsmith can install a breech plug into and cut dove tails for sights and lugs.

I suspect that the waning interest in traditional style muzzleoaders caused the demand for the TC side lock drop-ins to dry up.

troy_mclure
May 1, 2010, 01:47 AM
tons of places out there still making ml barrels, i believe bergara makes some non-cva barrels too.

i would choose a .50 ml over any other caliber just for the ease of finding components.

also some states do not allow 209 primers or optics during primitive weapons/ml season, and pa requires a flint lock for their ml season(if you plan on hunting a ml season as well)

zippy13
May 1, 2010, 02:24 AM
CajunPower,
I've enjoyed reading your April postings. If there was a newbie of the month award, you'd be the hands-down front runner in the writing style, technical knowledge and graphics categories. This time, you've got me stumped with your:
I want one that shoots round balls as best as possible because of the first paragraph that I wrote. I think our government not only wants U.S. to NOT have guns, I think they are doing everything possible to limit our ability to get AMMO.
Do you envision circumstances when lead balls would be available and conicals wouldn't? If lead balls are available, then aren't you just a bullet mold away from a superior shooting conical?

CajunPowder
May 1, 2010, 03:21 AM
Zippy: Thanks for the encouragement!

Ya know ... yer right!

I didn't think of it that way. If I'm going to be casting my own round balls then I guess the questions I need to start asking are which mold I need to purchase for which modern inline ML rifle.

Thanks for pulling the switch on my brain train and getting it on the right track :-)

Hawg: Thanks, I'm going to take a serious look at that Lyman Great Plains

CajunPowder
May 1, 2010, 11:19 PM
Hawg: ?

Have you ever heard of a Lyman Great Plains being set up so that it is easily interchangeable from percussion to flintlock, and then back again to percussion ... back and forth?

mykeal
May 2, 2010, 06:56 AM
It has been done successfully a number of times. It involves changing both lock and barrel, of course, but takes only a few minutes. One very useful modification is to pin the barrel keys so they remain in the stock once they're backed out of the barrel tenons. I'll see if I can find my pictures of that mod.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
May 2, 2010, 10:40 AM
The most common converstions at Friendship is this one. It is done on rifles
and pistols. All you do is start with a Flintlock gun. Just buy a extra frizzen
and cut off the striking part and weld it on the front of the frizzen. Actualy
you don't even have to do this, just cut it off. Drill and tap the cover plate
for 1/4 28 . Buy a percussion hammer for the lock. So to change between
the two, just change the frizzen and hammer. Very easy and simple.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/0007_filtered.jpg

Hawg
May 2, 2010, 01:55 PM
What Mykeal said.

CajunPowder
May 2, 2010, 10:28 PM
+1

Here's my favorite thread. Bookmarking this one.

Jack O'Conner
May 4, 2010, 06:57 AM
Thank you for all the speedy responses. I appreciate your shared wisdom.

Frankly, I don't want to spend a stack of money on a rifle which will only be hunted with a few days each year. Local shop has a NEW Winchester 45 caliber with fluted stainless steel barrel and plain Bushnell scope for $275. Plastic stock has a camo-leaf pattern. My on-line research reveals this Winchester model is made by CVA and appears to be a good rifle. Older CVA rifles from mid-90's had safety problems but the errors have been corrected. I read that CVA recalled these models at great cost to complete appropriate corrections. CVA is reputed to produce more muzzle-loaders than any other company in the world.

The Savage appears to be for the dedicated muzzle-loader. I'm not really focused on these higher end rifles.

TC Omega has a large following of happy customers. I found a lightly used TC FireHawk made in 1998. Owner offered it to me for $300. But I still have not found out any owner reviews of the FireHawk. The walnut stock with cheek piece has great eyeball appeal to me. I'm thinking that a 50 caliber with medium load of powder will not kick bad at all but will put down an eastern Pennsylvania whitetail. Average live weight of a buck is approx 140 lbs or so. Does weigh less but more abundant.

I won't be hunting with muzzle-loader in our home state of South Dakota for many reasons which are irrelevant to this thread.

Remington Genesis models are selling for less than $200. and appear at least as well made as others in this price range.

So many choices. YIKES!

Sherwood

Jbar4Ranch
May 4, 2010, 10:23 AM
I guess the questions I need to start asking are which mold I need to purchase for which modern inline ML rifle.

Hawg: Thanks, I'm going to take a serious look at that Lyman Great Plains

Most inlines are going to have a fast twist, 1:28 or 1:32, to stabilize a conical bullet rather than a round ball. I've only owned one single inline that had a round ball twist; a Pedersoli Gamma 9000 .54 cal, which has a twist of around 1:55 - 1:60 as best as I can tell. Conicals will typically stabilize best with a twist rate of 1:48 or faster, and round balls with a twist rate of 1:48 or slower. The Lyman Great Plains Rifle is a great rifle for the money - I have two .54's, one percussion and one flintlock. If you're going to shoot round balls, you want a Great Plains Rifle, which will have a slow twist (1:60). The faster twist rifle (1:32) will look identical in every way except it will say Great Plains Hunter on the barrel.

spitpatch
May 4, 2010, 10:48 AM
Zippy & Madcrate have the right answer to your question. Also I might suggest checking out your local skeet or trap club if you have one. These folks know all about reducing felt recoil- pads- reducers & weights. Also you may want to ask the same question on a shotgun site. But ( BEWARE THE INTERNET EXPERT ) !! Just my thoughts.

troy_mclure
May 4, 2010, 12:55 PM
imho black powder guns recoil differently than "modern" smokeless guns.

if you can try shooting somebodys m/l to see what you think.

my knight wolverine has as much recoil as a 20ga.

zippy13
May 4, 2010, 02:28 PM
my knight wolverine has as much recoil as a 20ga.
My comp 12-ga has the recoil of a .410; but, it's a far cry from your typical pump slug gun. As I mentioned previously, there are many ways to tame a shotgun. tony mclure is right on the mark recommending the OP try shooting somebody's m/l. I recommend a shooter try as many different guns as possible before making any decisions. The OP, Jack O'Conner, would be well served to shoot several m/l's and custom slug guns before making any purchases.

Higene
May 6, 2010, 02:08 PM
Mykeal

When did you start downloading your GPR? I thought you recommended 90 gr ff (I have been using that load and it shoots great for me)

mykeal
May 6, 2010, 03:40 PM
The OP asked for a low recoil yet lethal and accurate load for a range of 75 yards. 70 gr in a .54 GPR meets those criteria. The low recoil requirement is the key. 90 gr would be a better load for large game at longer ranges, like 100 yards, with heavier recoil, of course.

Jack O'Conner
May 10, 2010, 06:26 AM
I bought a TC Omega in 50 caliber from seller at GunBroker.com This rifle features break open design and modern in-line ignition. These rifles sell for $350. at CABELA's but I bought this slightly used one For $182.

It pays to shop around!

If it kicks too much, I'll re-sell it and buy a 20 gauge slug gun. Will try some medium power loads next weekend.

Thanks again for all the insightful wisdom.

Jack

Doc Hoy
May 10, 2010, 06:39 AM
I am not a long arm shooter, but it is always great to learn that someone got a nice deal.

Good for you.