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View Full Version : Drilling identificaion and value?


Red86r80rtbmw
April 25, 2010, 12:19 PM
This Double Rifle over single shotgun was made in Germany 1926.
has the words HENRY VOGT * CHICAGO.
Blue barrels. flip up express sights very fine notches
Engraved color case hard frame with Stag on the left side and Boar on the right side.
Horn trigger guard and butt plate.
Double trigger
Engraved color cased hard bullet trap (holds four rifle round) with integral sling mount.
With narrow military type leather sling
Engraved color case hard fore end release lever
Engraved color case grip cap
Left barrel top and left side marked Guss Stahl Stm.G. Crown over N 18Gr.
underside Gusstahl Kruppessen 9.3 474 1/2
a couple of proof marks with letters G U E
Right barrel top and right side marked Krupp Essen Crown over N 18 Gr.
underside Gusstahl Kruppessen 9mm 74 1/2
a couple of proof marks with letters G U E
Shotgun barrel marked on left side Made in Germany
a Nitro proof mark and 5 digit serial #
Shotgun barrel marked on bottom crown over W, crown over U, 20 20 inside a circle, 70mm, 7/26
Shotgun barrel marked on right side Flusstahl Kruppessen
left side of rear lug under the shotgun barrel has marked a K, with a F between the upper spread of the letter K and a W between the lower spread of the K.

This gun has marks from normal use but is in overall very good condition.
I have lots of pictures

PetahW
April 25, 2010, 06:34 PM
That's a fairly fancy double rifle drilling - very nice, and in usable chamberings, too.

Drillings that used two rifle barrels and a single shotgun barrel are rarer than double shot over a rifle barrel.
These were harder to make, since, like a double rifle, the rifle barrels must be very carefully regulated, that is, aligned during manufacture to shoot to the same point of aim at a given distance.
This requires more precision than regulation of double-barrelled shotgun barrels, which are used at shorter ranges with wide patterns of shot where a small misalignment won't be significant.

I would WAG it's worth at least $2500 or more (probably more), depending upon condition details.

(these are some combination gun configs, with some drillings in the middle, vierlings at the bottom - cape guns & 5-barreled versions are missing)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f2/Combination_guns.jpg

I don't recall ever running across another Double Rifle drilling that had two different large rifle chamberings, though ( 9.3mm & 9mm) - R U sure you've posted the markings correctly ?
The ones with different chamberings were usually vastly different (like maybe a 9.3 with a .22 cal), and the rifle barrels superposed with the shot barrel on the side.

"Guss Stahl" = cast steel

"Fluss Stahl" = mild steel

"Kruppessen" = barrel maker fromm Essen, Germany

"Henry Vogt" may have been a former owner or importer.

.

Red86r80rtbmw
April 26, 2010, 08:50 AM
both the rifle barrels look identicle and will chamber the 9.3 round
I am sure that I wrote down the markings under the barrel correctly

Jim Watson
April 26, 2010, 04:01 PM
underside Gusstahl Kruppessen 9.3 474 1/2

underside Gusstahl Kruppessen 9mm 74 1/2

Maybe Herman the German had a little typo with his hand stamp marking the first one, and the extra 4 does not really represent anything.

Red86r80rtbmw
April 26, 2010, 04:10 PM
more infomation
a few more pictures

Red86r80rtbmw
April 26, 2010, 04:12 PM
a few more pictures

Red86r80rtbmw
April 26, 2010, 04:15 PM
more pictures

Jim Watson
April 26, 2010, 06:38 PM
A good looking rig, but I cannot see any secret code in the standard German proof marks to tell where or by whom your drilling was made. Where do you get the year 1926?

Henry Vogt of Chicago does not Google, he might have been the importer or the customer.

As said, a double rifle drilling is more complicated and expensive than the usual double shot over one rifle. Yours has true sidelocks which adds to the cost, along with Kersten bolting (double Greener type crossbolts.) The front trigger is a single set for an accurate first shot with the right rifle barrel.

Chambering in a standard caliber like 9.3x74R and 2 3/4" 20 gauge is a great boost to its interest and value. But I won't guess a dollar number.

ohen cepel
April 26, 2010, 06:57 PM
I sent you a PM but didn't hear back from you.

Where are you located? Best to have someone who knows these look it over in order to give you a good estimate.

fisherman66
April 26, 2010, 07:08 PM
That is a bespoke gun. Thanks for the pictures. I've got to fight the green eye'd monster now.

Neruda
April 26, 2010, 07:49 PM
Another German shotgun, dated 1933 and engraved Henry Vogt was discussed in http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=60765&start=0

While Vogt may have been the importer, he may equally have been the owner - perhaps the Henry Vogt of the Vogt Manufacturing Co, Luisville, or his son & successor.

SDC
April 26, 2010, 09:22 PM
I can add a little bit of info for you; the interlaced "F W K" on the breechface was a logo used by F.W. Kessler, of Suhl, the German gunmaking capital up through WW2. I hope this helps.

Edit to add: Someone has put up some nice photos of a sweet double rifle also made by Kessler, showing the same logo, at : http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=drarchive&Number=147678&Searchpage=1&Main=147558&Words=+Buchseman&topic=&Search=true

mapsjanhere
April 27, 2010, 07:38 AM
Very nice "Doppelbuechsdrilling"; without the US markings probably worth several thousand dollars. With those "plaques" in the center of the engraving and the replacement screws, who knows; who buys a Rembrandt with a Walmart smily sticker dead center?

Red86r80rtbmw
April 27, 2010, 09:40 AM
In reading the date, it was pointed out to me by a double gun dealer who inspected the gun,
there is a 7 then a 26 on the underside of the barrell.
I was told this was the date. Nov. 1926

Red86r80rtbmw
April 27, 2010, 12:42 PM
Maps

I can see how you could think that the shinny pins are replacement screws showing through.

I think this is just the way it is. There is no evidence that these are anything but pins that pass through the with of the action.

As for the smile face with the name of Henry Vogt Chicago,
I wonder if this is a cocking indicator? I agree it sort of detracts from the engraving but it is what it is.

Knowing that it is a Franz W. Kessler Prussian Guild gun is more than I started out with. Considering that another poster found a shotgun with Henry Vogt of Chicago on it. makes me think that this was a retailer for custom guns.

No matter if 1926 or 2010 this gun is not one that the average hunter would have purchased. It may have collector value that far exceeds the value of the working gun. There may only be a hand full of people with the money and appreciation and the desire to own it.

SDC
April 27, 2010, 03:04 PM
This drilling was almost certainly made for Vogt during the 20s, when Germany was desperate to pay off its war debts, and was selling anything and everything it could to try to raise foreign capital (as with the American Eagle Lugers); since Vogt was paying the bill, it could have afforded to specify that it wanted its name on these guns. The normal spot for cocking indicators on these guns is high on the tang, where you could feel the raised pins with your thumb or see them at a glance. Regardless, you've got a very nice example of an odd form of combination gun, and it's in calibres that are obtainable to boot, which is nothing to sneeze at. When WW2 started, Kessler was converted to war production, and after Suhl was overrun by the Russians, they were nationalized with most other producers into a nameless conglomerate, so this gun shows the end of an era for German gunmaking.

mapsjanhere
April 27, 2010, 04:30 PM
Red, I wasn't referring to the pin ends but to what on my screen looked like a shiny screw in the center of the plaque. If it's has a raised center I agree it's a cocking indicator, and probably original to the gun. Still, unless you can identify the previous owner I think the personalization will be more a detraction to the value than a benefit.

vvision
January 7, 2012, 03:14 PM
Henry Vogt was a gunsmith for Marshall Field's in Chicago from the 1920's - 1950's/60's. He came to the U.S. from Germany after the First World War and settled in Illinois.
Back in the 50's he showed me a simple rifle that he explained was the final test for him to become a master gunsmith. He said he had to make the entire rifle from scratch - from raw materials.
It's obvious from his surviving guns that he learned his craft well!

I am aware that this thread is old but for historical purposes I felt compelled to take the speculation out of the thead and give some accurate data about Henry Vogt. Now you owners will have a clearer idea of the gunsmith who created the firearm.