View Full Version : Im a new guy here. Long Range Shootin questions
January 31, 2010, 01:46 AM
Just joined this site and already like it!!! Ive got some questions about long range shootin. Ive gotta Rem 700 in .308, Mcmillian A4 stock glass bedded, 20'' BBL and Badger Ord. Mag feed. I built some targets that are 1" thick and 18" x 18". one set at 100yds for zero, next is 262yds and the 3rd is at 660yds. Im havin trouble hitting the 660. Im reloading w/ RCBS R.C. IV, RCBS comp. dies. 168 gr. Sierra, RL15 @ 43.5 gr and fed primer w/ Win. Brass. FPS averages 2655. Im wonderin if its the loads or me (the shooter) does anybody have any suggestions?
January 31, 2010, 02:14 AM
What distance are you sighted in for? What kind of groups are you getting, off a bench, at 100? You don't want to be using an 18" target at 100.
Factory 168 grain bullets with close muzzle velocities drop about 50 inches at 500. Isn't easy to hit 18" at 500, never mind nearly 700.
You may want to change powders. IMR4064 gives excellent and consistent accuracy with 168 grain match bullets.
January 31, 2010, 02:25 AM
Zero at a hundred. With quarter inch grouping. I still haven't figured out what people are talking about when they say Sub MOA when refering to grouping. I've never been to a match. Im just doing this for a hobby not competition. But I still want to learn the terms and what they mean. I understand MOA's and and I know how to adjust the 1/4 MOA's for distance on the scope. I will try the powder you suggested. By the way my scope is a Leupold Mark IV 4.5 x 25 50 mm, I know its a higher power scope than I need, but I made a good purchase on it and couldn't pass it up.
Sorry about the spelling. Kinda tired.
January 31, 2010, 04:53 AM
Hi. One minute of angle(MOA) is 1" at 100 yards(isn't using math, but it's close enough), 2" at 200, etc. Your 1/4" group at 100, aside from being outstanding(well done), is a 1/4 Minute Of Angle group. So a Sub MOA group means less than 1" at 100, less than 2" at 200, etc.
"...how to adjust the 1/4 MOA's..." Means one click on the adjustment screw moves the cross hairs 1/4" at 100. So if you need to move 'em an inch, in any direction, at 100, it's 4 clicks per inch. Two clicks per 1/4 inch at 200, etc.
Now, where is the group at 100? Dead on at 100? This is where ballistics raises its ugly head. Sighting in 4" high at 100 should put you on target out to about 300.
Remington factory 168 grain match ammo(MV is a bit higher than your's. 2680 fps. It'll give you a place to start.) is 2.1" high at 100, on at 200 and 49.9" low at 500. The Remington Match ammo drops like a brick between 300 and 400. 8" to 24". Factory ballistics isn't a great comparison to handloads, give you an idea though. You need to aim higher for a 660 yard shot.
There are on-line ballistics calculators. Don't actually trust 'em myself. I'm a computer technician. Don't trust programmers to do anything right the first time.
"...a hobby not competition...I've never been to a match..." Shooting competitions is a hobby. Go to a match. It's great fun and nobody will laugh at you. Shooters just don't do that. You're shooting against yourself anyway. Most shooters will bend over backwards to help you. You'll meet a great bunch of people too. Joining a shooting club is a good idea as well. Opens a lot of doors.
"...know its a higher power scope than I need..." It's also what you have. Especially when the price was right.
"...Sorry about the spelling. Kinda tired..." You're spelling is fine and I'm kind of drunk. I can edit my typing even when drunk. If you saw what I type before editing, you'd laugh yourself silly.
January 31, 2010, 10:08 AM
T O'Heir made a lot of good points. Even if he said he was stiffed. Competition is really not just a win/ lose proposition. It's a social event. People out to enjoy some shooting fun, talking guns,jokes, sharing tips. This is where you can really learn hitting targets at distance. You have a setup for a nice casual F-class. See if a local club has a small match to get into.
Your scope can be a key to improving your longer range hits. Note the settings at ,say, 100 yards. This can be used as a base from which to move forward. Returning to this setting should always allow center hits at 100 yards. Moving the elevation 3minutes up [12 clicks? depending the scope] should put your shots close to center at 200 yards. Another 14 0r 16 clicks[3-4 minutes] for 300 yards. Your values may differ but write the scope settings down. These should repeat if the same ammo is used. Keep a diary of scope settings. You'll start to become one with the gun.
January 31, 2010, 12:14 PM
I don't know about your load, but if it shoots 2 moa at 100 yards chances are its not the gun or load.
When you get to 600 yards (I think 660 years is like 600 meters, Being an American I dont use meters).
Anyway, anyone can slope them in at 2-300 yards, but when you get to 600 yards or so, wierd things tend to happen, Wind, Mirage, Light, Heat, etc. Your conditions at 100 yard may or may not be whats happening at 600 yards or anywhere between 100 & 600 yards.
Go to Sears or someplace and get a large appliance box to make a target backing for you 18 x 18 target. It dosnt do any good to know that you missed. You need to know where the bullet went when you missed.
A 5 mph wind on your load will move the bullet about 3 MOA. That means 18 inches at 600 yards. That dosnt give you a lot of room to play on an 18 in sq target. The problem is can you tell the differance between a 5 MPH wind and an 8 mph wind when that wind on your target is 600 yards away. An 8 mph wind will move your bullet about 29 inches.
When you zero at a 18 in target, you are zeroed at the center, meaning you have 9 inchs to play with. It dosnt take much of a breeze to move a bullet 9 inches at 600 yards.
The load you are using is pretty close to the M852 Match load used in HP matches. If you can determine the wind speed, its simple to figure the corrections needed.
C= W x R / 10. C = 1 min clicks, W = wind speed, R = 100 yards, 10 is a constant (for that load) Example C = 5 mph wind, R = 6 for 600 yards, divided by 10, the constant. So C will be "3" one min. clicks, or at 600 yards ( 3X6= 18 inches)
I hope I explained this good enough, I coach better then I write. But you can get the ideal, I don't think its your gun or ammo thats causing the problems.
January 31, 2010, 01:37 PM
I just got back online and seen what all ya'll posted!!!!!!!!!
Just want to say thanks!!!!!!!! ALOT!!! Im gonna print this off and take it to the shop... I live in Southern Ok do any of you know of matches in the area?
and what size target do people normally shoot at out to 660 yds. The reason I made mine 18" X 18" is I want to shoot a wild hog at this distance and figured better not go no bigger than that. Ive also got a Barrett model 95 .50 BMG and want to do the same. the cardboard box behind it sounds good as well, that way I can tell where it hits, if not the target. And when shootin this far Ive found havin a spotter helps. But I can't get my wife to do it all the time. LOL
January 31, 2010, 02:10 PM
I didnt notice the Oklahoma part. I've shot high power matches in OK. You are talking humid, and I dont think there is such a thing as calm winds in OK.
Mirage is what you have to deal with. You look through a spotting scope, it's gonna look like you are shooting through a swiming pool. You dont need a spotter to tell where you hit, you need a spotter to tell you whats happening in ref. to the mirage.
Fire up your spotting scope and go to a High power or F-class match. Get behind a shooter and see what the mirage does to his bullet. Focus the scope at a point about 2/3s down range. NOT ON THE TAGET. That will allow you to read the mirage at the target.
Its not just wind and mirage, it temps. also. On 308 target rifle each 10-15 degree temp change is going to change you zero 1 moa, or 6 inches at 600 yeards (6 2/3 inches at 660 yards).
I never hunted hogs, but from what I understand they arnt very big. A bit smaller then a deer. It isnt gonna take much wind (or mirage which shows wind movement) to take you plum off target.
Just my opinion, but I would recommend you put the 50 cal aside, load up or buy a poop load of 308s and go to an F-Class of High Power match and get a bit of practice shooting mid range (600 yards).
I'm not a fan of long range hunting. I've been shooting high power and 1000 yards matches for over 30 years. I limit my hunting to 300 yards. I know what a little miscalculation does at 600 yards. A miss is one thing, a gut shot critter crawling off to die a painful death in not my ideal of hunting.
January 31, 2010, 02:24 PM
I do agree with you on the crippled critter subject. I dont want to do that, But the hogs are so bad on our place, they have completely destroyed three hay pastures and rooted up four bermuda pastures. Along with my wife hit one in her pickup a half a mile before the ranch gate that goes to the house. $3200 damage. They are so bad theyve rooted up the bar ditches along the highway. And Im afraid someones gonna swerve to miss one and wind up in a bad accident. That happened about 6 yrs ago and a guy died. he was thrown out and the car rolled on top of him. anyways im gettin off the subject. sorry bout that.
January 31, 2010, 04:01 PM
Reading conditions beyond 400 yards can be an art form. Every good shooter has his own formula. Wind, mirage, temperature ,humidity and a slew of other unknowns conspire to challenge the shooter. It's why it is said that "Todays zero is Todays' zero". The conditions yesterday might look the same but it's no guarantee. It is important to have range zeros in calm conditions. Usually in the morning ,before the sun has a chance to warm thing up, is the best time. If you can get reliable elevation zeros for various distances it will be one part of the puzzle and a confidence builder. A cardboard refrigerator box as a target backer is also a good idea.
Kraigwy is right about setting up behind a shooter and watching the conditions. It's amazing to see how the wind and mirage make bullets dance.
I'm guessing but if the vitals of a hog are around 20 inches that is about the '9' ring on a Conventional Highpower 600yd target.
February 1, 2010, 03:54 PM
You may be better of going to a 175 Sierra or 178 AMax with that 20 inch barrel. The 168 Sierra is not a long range bullet, I have tried shooting them at 800 yards out of a 26 inch barrel rifle behind a HOT load of Varget, and they went subsonic and hit the target sideways.
February 11, 2010, 04:33 AM
A quick glance at a table yields that to come up from a 100 yd zero to 600 , you will need maybe 16-18 inches (MOA) of up adjustment from your 100 yd zero. That's in the neighborhood 60-70 +/- clicks if your Mk4 has 1/4 clicks (NICE scope BTW) , I don't know, the Mark 4's have different adjustments available.
ANY wind is not your friend.
For conversations sake, your mid range (height above line of sight) will be over 3 feet, ie, from a 100 yd zero, clicked up to 600.....at 300 you will be 3 ft+ high!!!!
Looks like you are getting coached by guys a lot sharper than me, bet you'll get on target soon.
There's some useful stuff on line about judging wind, I'll look for the site and try and get back.
February 11, 2010, 03:10 PM
I use the same charge load of re15 as you. I get1/2 groups at 200 yards with it in my remmy. Get an absolute 100 or 200 yard zero and practice,,practice ,,,, practice,, before moving unto 600 yards. You simply must know where your bullet is going to hit at any given yardage. The Hornady has site has a 'ballistic calculator' where you can input info as to BC and velocity. One can print out the results and use it as a cheat sheet at the range...Good luck!
February 11, 2010, 03:26 PM
Get a bigger target.
On my best day (and that was several years ago) I was getting 10" groups at 600yds, shooting prone. But if I didn't have a big target (4'x4') and plenty of ranging shots to walk in, I doubt I would have gotten most of my shots on the target.
February 19, 2010, 11:01 PM
You seem to have a good setup. The 8.5 X 25 50mm Leupold is not to much scope. I hope you have the M1 Knobs on the scope to dial with. NOTE: If you do not have M1 Knobs you can send it to Leupold and have them installed. They can also put in a TMR Reticle if you do not have one already. Handy for Hold Over and Range Finding with the scope.
You have very good advice above. Get an exact 100 yard Zero. Make sure 100 yards is 100 yards, and not sorta close. Measure it! You need a Harris Swivel Bipod with a Pod Loc. If you order one new get the Notch Leg version. You also need a Rear Sand Sock for the butt elevation. About soda can size filled with beaney baby fill is about perfect. I have a new design we have available for our sniper school that is Brick shaped 3" X 4" X 5" depending on how you position it. You need a Log Book with a Drop Chart and a Wind Chart. If your scope is equipped with a Mil Dot, or TMR reticle and you would like to practice Optical Range Finding a MIL DOT Ranging Chart and Table of Known Objects is handy also.
Drop Chart. For your velocity with a 168 gr bullet you should Dial In approximately 18.50 MOA of elevation at 660 Yards.
In Oklahoma Wind is a real problem. I have shot at Bad Lands with the grass laying over 3 directions between you and the target. That is a problem.
Bad Lands Tactical Training Center is located at Grandfield, OK. That is South of Lawton and go West on 70. I am not sure if Bob is still holding matches or not. I went to his Sniper School a few years ago, and shot one match, but I have not shot down their in a while. Great guy and a nice place to shoot. Bob had a prefered motel in Wichita Falls Texas with a discount for match shooters. It looked like a SWAT Convention at the motel that weekend. I had a great time. Do a web search for Bad Lands Tactical Training Center.
If you could use some help with charts etc contact me.
We hold a Sniper Match and a Multi Range F Class Match alternating Monthly in South Central Missouri.
http://bigpineysportsmanmsclub.com/ for info
April 5, 2010, 04:19 PM
I have a 7mm Rem Mag Sendero that I use as a target rifle. About two weeks ago I shot at a 400 yard target for the first time doing exactly what kraigwy suggested. I had tried it once before using one of those for sale signs that you see in front of homes with a "14x"14 target taped to it. I don't know where I was on the target; never hit it. Shot right over the top of it but still..... I got a piece of '3 1/2 x '3 1/2 card board and taped a "12x
"12 Dirty Bird Splatterting Target to it and went to work. 1st 5 shot group averaged 7.304 in. and the second 5 shot group averaged 3.372 inches. First and second was about 2 inches left of the target but on the card board. I got tired of walking back and forth to my target so I took it back to 100 yards and adjusted up on the scope. Now its shooting 6 inches high dead center. The larger target backing gave me the feed back that I needed and I was able to make necessary adjustment. I was shooting a 168 grain Match King/65 grains of RE-22 by the way .
April 5, 2010, 09:30 PM
For a 100-yard zero, this data should be very close
308 168SMK @ 2655
Z 100yd 1000'DA
RANGE ELEV- moa mil | WIND(10) moa mil RANGE
25 1" 3.25 0.9mil | 0" 0.25 0.1mil 25
50 0" 0.50 0.1mil | 0" 0.25 0.1mil 50
75 -0" -0.00 -0.0mil | 0" 0.50 0.1mil 75
100 0" 0.00 0.0mil | 1" 0.70 0.2mil 100
125 0" 0.25 0.1mil | 1" 1.00 0.3mil 125
150 1" 0.70 0.2mil | 2" 1.00 0.3mil 150
175 2" 1.25 0.4mil | 2" 1.25 0.4mil 175
200 4" 1.70 0.6mil | 3" 1.50 0.4mil 200
225 6" 2.50 0.7mil | 4" 1.70 0.5mil 225
250 8" 3.25 0.9mil | 5" 1.70 0.5mil 250
275 11" 4.00 1.1mil | 6" 2.00 0.6mil 275
300 15" 4.50 1.3mil | 7" 2.25 0.7mil 300
325 18" 5.50 1.6mil | 9" 2.50 0.7mil 325
350 23" 6.25 1.8mil | 10" 2.70 0.8mil 350
375 28" 7.00 2.0mil | 12" 3.00 0.9mil 375
400 33" 7.70 2.3mil | 13" 3.25 0.9mil 400
425 39" 8.70 2.5mil | 15" 3.50 1.0mil 425
450 46" 9.70 2.8mil | 17" 3.70 1.1mil 450
475 53" 10.50 3.1mil | 20" 4.00 1.1mil 475
500 61" 11.50 3.4mil | 22" 4.25 1.2mil 500
525 69" 12.50 3.7mil | 24" 4.50 1.3mil 525
550 78" 13.50 4.0mil | 27" 4.70 1.4mil 550
575 88" 14.70 4.3mil | 30" 5.00 1.4mil 575
600 99" 15.70 4.6mil | 33" 5.25 1.5mil 600
625 111" 17.00 4.9mil | 36" 5.50 1.6mil 625
650 123" 18.25 5.3mil | 40" 5.70 1.7mil 650
675 137" 19.25 5.6mil | 44" 6.25 1.8mil 675
700 151" 20.70 6.0mil | 47" 6.50 1.9mil 700
725 167" 22.00 6.4mil | 51" 6.70 2.0mil 725
750 183" 23.25 6.8mil | 56" 7.00 2.1mil 750
775 201" 24.70 7.2mil | 60" 7.50 2.2mil 775
800 219" 26.25 7.6mil | 65" 7.70 2.3mil 800
825 239" 27.70 8.1mil | 70" 8.00 2.4mil 825
850 260" 29.25 8.5mil | 75" 8.50 2.5mil 850
875 283" 30.70 9.0mil | 81" 8.70 2.6mil 875
900 307" 32.50 9.5mil | 86" 9.25 2.7mil 900
925 332" 34.25 10.0mil | 92" 9.50 2.8mil 925
950 359" 36.00 10.5mil | 98" 9.70 2.9mil 950
975 387" 38.00 11.0mil | 105" 10.25 3.0mil 975
1000 417" 39.70 11.6mil | 111" 10.50 3.1mil 1000
April 5, 2010, 11:34 PM
Lots of excellent advice in this thread.
Something else that can help is the use of a good friend as a spotter. You set them up right beside you, and have them focus their scope on a point about 3/4 of the way to the target--it should be a bit blurred.
If you are firing on a good day, you can actually WATCH the bullet's vapor trail as it heads down range. Your spotter can actually tell you almost exactly where the bullet goes.
And, it isn't hard to spot either. It's actually pretty neat--the vapor trail looks like a boiling finger of doom reaching out toward the target. Try it out!
April 6, 2010, 09:03 AM
Check out the Tulsa Red Castle Gun Club web site. They have been having a couple 1000 yd matches a year.
Don't shy away from the competion, like another fella says it's more of a social event, you will learn so much more at a match than you will ever sitting in front of the computer.
April 7, 2010, 12:58 PM
Tulsa Red Castle Gun Club
I think I shot at their range in 1978. Took the AK NG to a High Power Match there in route to the Wilson Matches in Little Rock.
The problem I had was the target pullers, they hired HS Girls. The match director said boys goof off too much, boys and girls mean no target service. Just girls worked out much better.
They did a good job, the problem was it was quite warm and the girls were dressed...........shall we say "for hot weather". It was distracting to some of my young shooters.
Great match though.
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